/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2011-12-21 / end
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- # Session Start: Wed Dec 21 00:00:00 2011
- # Session Ident: #accessibility
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- # [03:11] <firebot> hub@mozilla.com cancelled review?(trev.saunders@gmail .com) for attachment 582379 on bug 708144.
- # [03:11] <firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=708144 nor, --, ---, hub, NEW, After loading a new page, the WebArea is no longer accessible
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- # [03:24] <firebot> hub@mozilla.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 583361 on bug 708144.
- # [03:24] <firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=708144 nor, --, ---, hub, NEW, After loading a new page, the WebArea is no longer accessible
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- # [04:38] <firebot> fmdevelopertim@gmail.com changed the Component on bug 712203 from Keyboard Navigation to Panorama.
- # [04:38] <firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=712203 min, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, "Next tab group" keyboard shortcut doesn't work after "restore previous session"
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- # [05:41] <@davidb> zzzz
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- # [13:01] <@firebot> mratcliffe@mozilla.com changed the Component on bug 607325 from Developer Tools to Disability Access.
- # [13:01] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=607325 nor, P3, ---, nobody, NEW, Test browser_webconsole_bug_594477_clickable_output.js always fails for me
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- # [13:56] <@tbsaunde> MarcoZ: for nvda preferences->voice settings -> use spelling functionality if supported being unchecked doesn't prevent me from hearing misspelled when reading something like aIface in edit feilds on bugzilla, does it for you? or am I using the wrong setting?
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- # [14:09] <@tbsaunde> oh, nvm, its preferences -> document formating -> report spelling erors
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- # [14:48] <@davidb> !seen surkov
- # [14:48] <@firebot> surkov was last seen 1 week, 5 days, 6 hours, 15 minutes and 18 seconds ago, saying ':)' in #accessibility.
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- # [15:06] <@tbsaunde> 4heh
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- # [15:39] <@MarcoZ> Hi davidb!
- # [15:39] <@MarcoZ> Hi tbsaunde, glad you figured it out! :)
- # [15:39] <@davidb> hey all
- # [15:41] <@davidb> what did tbsaunde figure out?
- # [15:41] <@davidb> the leak?
- # [15:43] <@MarcoZ> davidb: No, how to disable the announcement of spelling errors in NVDA.
- # [15:44] <@davidb> ah
- # [15:44] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Where is surkov? Do you know what's up with him?
- # [15:44] <@davidb> Away until further notice.
- # [15:45] * @davidb backchannels
- # [15:45] * @davidb wonders why nsHTMLCanvasFrame derives from nsSplittableFrame
- # [15:56] <@tbsaunde> davidb: that doesn't sound good :(
- # [15:57] <@tbsaunde> MarcoZ: yeah, it was really anoying me when reviewing
- # [15:57] <@davidb> tbsaunde: it sounds more dramatic than it is.
- # [15:57] <@MarcoZ> tbsaunde: I can imagine!
- # [15:57] <@tbsaunde> davidb: ok
- # [15:58] <@davidb> tbsaunde: are you set up on windows now?
- # [15:58] <@davidb> i guess obvious
- # [15:59] <@MarcoZ> davidb: I pulled surkov's update bullet from today's agenda.
- # [15:59] <@davidb> ok
- # [16:00] <@tbsaunde> davidb: same windows vm I had over the summer, I can build and use nightly on it
- # [16:00] <@davidb> ok
- # [16:00] <@tbsaunde> but I have no idea how to debug still
- # [16:00] <@davidb> guys we need to start promoting stuff to https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/Planning/Goals
- # [16:00] <@tbsaunde> or how to not go made when building
- # [16:00] <@tbsaunde> *mad
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- # [16:07] <@davidb> MarcoZ: do we want to revisit the whitelist idea?
- # [16:07] * @davidb is looking over our performance tracker bugs
- # [16:07] <@tbsaunde> davidb: for dll's on windows?
- # [16:07] <@davidb> tbsaunde: yeah
- # [16:08] <@tbsaunde> davidb: do we have any real idea how big a deal it is?
- # [16:08] <@davidb> tbsaunde: it makes about 5 other bugs no longer issues.
- # [16:09] <@davidb> we can also have a command line arg, and a pref for forcing a11y on/off
- # [16:09] <@tbsaunde> davidb: really?
- # [16:09] <@davidb> tbsaunde: yep
- # [16:09] * @tbsaunde was thinking mroe how many users does it effect
- # [16:09] <@davidb> yes that's the worry
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- # [16:10] <@davidb> it would be an unpopular move
- # [16:10] <@davidb> and cause short term pain
- # [16:10] <@davidb> potentially
- # [16:10] <@tbsaunde> davidb: what pain?
- # [16:10] <@tbsaunde> davidb: also, what bugs?
- # [16:10] <@hub> hi
- # [16:10] <@davidb> hi
- # [16:11] <@davidb> tbsaunde: pain = users suddenly finding FF inaccessible
- # [16:11] <@tbsaunde> davidb: it also means we get less people looking for crash bugs
- # [16:11] <@davidb> true
- # [16:11] <@davidb> less coverage you mean?
- # [16:11] <@tbsaunde> davidb: yeah, we should try to avoidthat happening
- # [16:12] <@davidb> it is a valid point
- # [16:12] <@MarcoZ> davidb: I also worry about apps that we don't even think about, like automated password entry software (finger print scanners) suddenly no longer working. Accessibility APIs may be what they rely on, and if we suddenly whitelist stuff, we shut out all others and may cause grief.
- # [16:12] <@tbsaunde> davidb: yeah
- # [16:12] <@davidb> MarcoZ: yes, hopefully short term grief.
- # [16:12] <@MarcoZ> davidb: And those are usually users who aren't even aware that they're using accessibility.
- # [16:12] <@MarcoZ> davidb: We can never be certain if it's short term.
- # [16:13] <@davidb> I think the answer to my original question is probably "no".
- # [16:13] <@MarcoZ> Hi hub!
- # [16:13] <@tbsaunde> davidb: yeah, I'd rally want to avoidthat route
- # [16:14] <@davidb> we could potentially land a whitelist and pref it off on merge to beta for a few merges, and collect all the reports.
- # [16:14] <@tbsaunde> davidb: sure, or we could justwait for the dll telemetry
- # [16:14] <@davidb> tbsaunde: that only tells us about known dlls
- # [16:15] <@davidb> it doesn't cover unknown injections or extensions
- # [16:15] <@tbsaunde> davidb: depends how you do it I think
- # [16:15] <@davidb> tbsaunde: well, we aren't pinging back the whole module list :)
- # [16:15] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I'dthink we could a list of all the loaded ones when a11y was started
- # [16:16] <@davidb> that could be very interesting
- # [16:16] <@davidb> i smell a plan
- # [16:16] <@tbsaunde> davidb: other than privacy is there a reason we can't?
- # [16:16] <@davidb> privacy is the only thing i can think of
- # [16:17] <@davidb> i suppose it can be a lot of data
- # [16:17] <@tbsaunde> I suppose there is also extensions turning us on, not sure if we can hook the xpconnect / xpcom goo
- # [16:17] <@davidb> right
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- # [16:17] <@hub> MarcoZ: if you want to play my last try build show have a functional albeit still very slow build of Firefox with a11y
- # [16:17] <@davidb> we might be able to do something fancy
- # [16:17] <@hub> MarcoZ: here https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/try-builds/hfiguiere@mozilla.com-c357a6bcf2af/try-macosx64/firefox-12.0a1.en-US.mac.dmg
- # [16:18] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I'd gues no more than a 1 or 2 kb of text, but that's a wag
- # [16:18] <@davidb> hub: does profiling with instruments tell you anything useful?
- # [16:18] <@davidb> wags are good
- # [16:19] <@hub> davidb: not yet
- # [16:20] * @davidb looks at long goal list
- # [16:20] <@davidb> tbsaunde: let's bake that idea for a bit
- # [16:20] <@MarcoZ> hub: Thanks!
- # [16:21] <@tbsaunde> davidb: sure, afaik dll stuff is your project now anyway :-)
- # [16:22] <@tbsaunde> well, one of your projects
- # [16:22] <@davidb> yep
- # [16:22] <@davidb> i'm doing a restart after the compat work landed
- # [16:23] <@davidb> tbsaunde: for now i think it would be good to extend sMode and ping the data back
- # [16:23] <@davidb> just the bitflag
- # [16:23] <@davidb> g
- # [16:23] <@davidb> sorry typing is hard
- # [16:23] <@davidb> hub: i bet you need coffee
- # [16:24] <@hub> it is brewing
- # [16:24] <@tbsaunde> davidb: sure
- # [16:24] <@tbsaunde> it would certainly improve what we know
- # [16:25] <@davidb> tbsaunde: would you like the unofficial goal of doing our about:memory hookup in Q1?
- # [16:25] <@davidb> i suspect with reviews and school there is risk
- # [16:26] <@tbsaunde> davidb: not really, for the reasons you just gave
- # [16:26] <@davidb> good
- # [16:26] <@davidb> we won't write that in
- # [16:26] <@davidb> tbsaunde: i might take a look at it (famous last words)
- # [16:27] <@tbsaunde> davidb: it shouldn't be that hard I wouldthink once you figure out a reasonable design
- # [16:27] <@davidb> yeah
- # [16:28] <@davidb> maybe we can work on it together
- # [16:30] <@MarcoZ> hub: This is good! It definitely shows improvements in both rendering stuff and also when loading subsequent pages, I now actually get content!
- # [16:30] * @davidb dances
- # [16:30] <@hub> MarcoZ: that's what the last patch fixes
- # [16:31] <@davidb> tbsaunde: want to join me in the video room before we officially start?
- # [16:31] <@davidb> do you have the number?
- # [16:31] <@tbsaunde> davidb: ok, /me ->
- # [16:31] <@tbsaunde> davidb: yeah
- # [16:32] <@davidb> ok great
- # [16:32] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
- # [16:33] * @davidb is there
- # [16:33] * @MarcoZ tries to dial in from the iPad today rather than the iPhone.
- # [16:34] <@hub> logging in
- # [16:35] <@davidb> ok the agenda!
- # [16:35] <@davidb> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/Meetings/2011-12-21#Agenda
- # [16:36] <@davidb> ok let's rock
- # [16:36] <@davidb> tbsaunde: not working?
- # [16:37] * @davidb also dials into conf 8600
- # [16:51] <@eeejay> i'm going to be off the grid this weekend
- # [16:55] <@davidb> eeejay: please add that goal here https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/Planning/Goals
- # [17:03] <@davidb> all ^
- # [17:07] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Done.
- # [17:08] <@hub> do I need specific right to edit the wiki?
- # [17:09] <@davidb> hub: no
- # [17:10] <@tbsaunde> davidb: on mac we just drop all events other than focus and value change on the floor atm
- # [17:10] <@davidb> psychedelic
- # [17:10] <@hub> davidb: I can't seem to see the edit button :-/
- # [17:10] <@tbsaunde> hub: are you loged in?
- # [17:10] <@hub> tbsaunde: yes it is.
- # [17:10] <@hub> tbsaunde: yes I am logged in
- # [17:11] <@hub> I just created the account
- # [17:11] <@davidb> you need to reload
- # [17:11] <@davidb> shift reload
- # [17:11] <@davidb> then it is at the top
- # [17:11] <@tbsaunde> davidb: at the risk of getting interested in a huge project what do you want Alex to work on?
- # [17:11] <@davidb> hahahaa
- # [17:11] <@davidb> Alex is a big part of deciding that
- # [17:12] <@davidb> basically the answer is most of: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/2012CorePicture
- # [17:12] <@tbsaunde> davidb: true, I gues I mean what did you think was important?
- # [17:12] <@tbsaunde> heh
- # [17:12] <@hub> oh wait, confirmation email arrived
- # [17:12] <@hub> that's probably why
- # [17:12] <@tbsaunde> not, much just about everything broken ;)
- # [17:13] <@davidb> well, I'd like to see the open AT alliance succeed as well as the IA2 evolution
- # [17:13] <@hub> it works now
- # [17:13] <@davidb> hub: :)
- # [17:14] <@tbsaunde> davidb: yeah, I'm not familiar with the open at allience, but I'd probably agree
- # [17:15] <@davidb> it isn't totally public yet
- # [17:15] <@tbsaunde> ok
- # [17:22] <@davidb> hub: that's a tough goal, and a tough goal to measure :)
- # [17:22] <@davidb> i'm not against tough goals
- # [17:23] <@davidb> eeejay: are you going to make FF swear randomly?
- # [17:23] <@davidb> that might be cool
- # [17:24] <@eeejay> davidb, it is a Q1 goal, yes
- # [17:24] <@davidb> ok then
- # [17:25] <@davidb> MarcoZ: I think we need to say 3 (or 2) but not 2-3. Simply to make the goal crisp. What do you think?
- # [17:32] <@davidb> guys, I didn't mention during the meeting, but I am meeting with clones and gal today to see if Q1 is the right time for b2g a11y work
- # [17:32] <@davidb> darn autocorrect
- # [17:33] <@davidb> clones/cjones
- # [17:36] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Let's say 2, then, and if we get 3, we're lucky.
- # [17:36] <@davidb> fine with me
- # [17:37] <@davidb> i suspect you'll get lots of temporary contributors, tweeting the odd thing, but getting more consistent ones will be great
- # [17:38] <@davidb> we can strategize on retainment
- # [17:38] <@davidb> hmmm
- # [17:39] <@davidb> for some reason i just thought of open badges
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- # [17:41] <jdm> does anyone know if mark pilgrim's Dive Into Accessibility (http://diveintoaccessibility.info/) is still a good resource for basic website accessibility?
- # [17:42] <jdm> I want to make sure that bugsahoy is as accessible as possible, but that requires me to do some learning
- # [17:42] <@tbsaunde> davidb: MarcoZ ^
- # [17:45] <@davidb> jdm: i will look but not immediately
- # [17:45] <@davidb> web aim has the best stuff
- # [17:45] <jdm> sure, no problem
- # [17:45] <jdm> davidb: link?
- # [17:45] <@davidb> http://webaim.org/
- # [17:45] <@davidb> and TPG maybe
- # [17:45] <jdm> danke
- # [17:45] <@davidb> we have some as well
- # [17:45] <@davidb> np
- # [17:45] <@davidb> jdm: thanks for caring!
- # [17:46] <@davidb> jdm: I suspect Marco would offer input and QA
- # [17:46] <jdm> that would be handy
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- # [18:02] <@MarcoZ> jdm: Yeah, feel free to ping me if you have any questions as to how we process stuff for screen readers etc.
- # [18:09] <@davidb> jdm: is this the link you are worried about http://www.joshmatthews.net/bugsahoy/
- # [18:10] <jdm> davidb: mostly, yes. there will be a version on mozilla.org that is surrounded by the mozilla.org template as well
- # [18:10] <@davidb> the results area could be a live region
- # [18:11] <jdm> yeah, I figured I would need some more attributes to reflect the dynamic updates
- # [18:11] <@davidb> MarcoZ: what is appropriate for search results? aria-live="polite"?
- # [18:11] <@davidb> or maybe putting role=log is easiest
- # [18:12] <@davidb> jdm: luckily most of the hard work is done, you just need to mark the region. we'll pick up the mutations and turn them into goodness.
- # [18:12] <jdm> nice
- # [18:13] <jdm> davidb: take another look as well? I just pulled an update that adds dynamic tooltips to each element
- # [18:14] <@MarcoZ> davidb: role="log" should do just fine.
- # [18:16] <@davidb> ok i'll test until the lunch train leaves
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- # [18:20] <@davidb> looks good. yeah jdm can you add role="log". So <div id="bugs content" role="log">
- # [18:20] <@davidb> then ping me
- # [18:20] <@davidb> and MarcoZ
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- # [18:20] <jdm> davidb: sure thing. thanks a lot!
- # [18:20] <@davidb> dude
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- # [19:02] <@davidb> eeejay: does "dalvik" include the accessibility framework on android?
- # [19:03] <@tbsaunde> davidb: dalvic is the thing they munge java byte code into
- # [19:03] <@davidb> hmm
- # [19:04] <@tbsaunde> so, since most of the a11y stuff on android is probably not native code it does get compiled to dalvic
- # [19:04] <@tbsaunde> oh, and per sop I can't spell
- # [19:04] <@tbsaunde> davidb: what's up?
- # [19:05] <@davidb> i'm trying to figure out what removal of "dalvik" means for us… it is a b2g Q2 goal
- # [19:06] <@hub> davidb: that mean no android framework
- # [19:06] <@davidb> it isn't really news that we'll need to have our own tts layet
- # [19:06] <@davidb> layer
- # [19:06] <@hub> dalvik is to Android what JVM is to Java
- # [19:06] <@davidb> got it
- # [19:06] <@tbsaunde> davidb: so I think the question you want to be asking is does that include getting rid of the android a11y framework
- # [19:06] <@hub> davidb: in b2g, I'd rather rely on gtk
- # [19:06] <@davidb> ok i am recalling this all now
- # [19:07] <@hub> davidb: it is my understanding that b2g only use Android for the device support
- # [19:07] <@tbsaunde> hub: its not going to have gtk either afaik
- # [19:07] <@davidb> i think we'll be moving more into html space
- # [19:07] <@davidb> gecko is the platform
- # [19:07] <@hub> that mean reinventing the tts
- # [19:07] <@davidb> yes
- # [19:07] <@tbsaunde> were "android" here means I think the android "fork" of linux and maybe libc
- # [19:07] <@hub> tbsaunde: android support is in mainline kernel now
- # [19:08] <@davidb> tts engine should be in b2g/gonk layer
- # [19:08] <@davidb> i think
- # [19:08] <@davidb> i'll now more in 2 hours
- # [19:08] <@tbsaunde> hub: not really, we just need to either link against espeak / svox or mscripten them
- # [19:08] <@davidb> tbsaunde: we could
- # [19:08] <@davidb> emscripten
- # [19:09] <@tbsaunde> hub: all of it? /me hasn't been paying much attention, but thought there were some big chunks android wouldn't give up and linux wouldn't take
- # [19:09] <@davidb> https://wiki.mozilla.org/B2G/Roadmap
- # [19:10] <@tbsaunde> davidb: my first gues is linking the native libs will be easier
- # [19:12] <@davidb> tbsaunde: does b2g interest you?
- # [19:12] <@davidb> as a technical problem space
- # [19:13] <@tbsaunde> davidb: not sure
- # [19:13] <@davidb> anyways, school.
- # [19:13] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I don't think we havethat many problems to solve though, *1 write a screen reader in js, and 2 xpcom tts
- # [19:14] <@tbsaunde> true
- # [19:14] <@tbsaunde> productization in q2 there ambitious
- # [19:14] <@davidb> eeejay: is working on 1
- # [19:14] <@tbsaunde> davidb: yeah, sort of
- # [19:14] <@davidb> ambitious but serious
- # [19:14] <@davidb> right
- # [19:15] <@davidb> tbsaunde: the biggest potential problem is how we get the semantic data out of the UI
- # [19:15] <@tbsaunde> I'm not sure I'd want to use the pivit / virtual curses stuff he wants to if I were doing it ;)
- # [19:15] <@davidb> tbsaunde: what is the alternative?
- # [19:16] <@tbsaunde> davidb: why? presumably the screen reader would just use nsIAccessibleFoo
- # [19:16] <@davidb> yes but nsIAccessibleFoo is potentially now dealing with canvas + js
- # [19:16] <@tbsaunde> davidb: keep some global state yourself
- # [19:16] <@davidb> I need to find out what the data structures for the UI are, if not DOM.
- # [19:16] <@tbsaunde> davidb: if there using canvas a lot then that gets interesting
- # [19:17] <@davidb> right
- # [19:17] <@davidb> it gets *hard*
- # [19:17] <@tbsaunde> sure, but why wouldn't you use the DOM
- # [19:17] * @davidb shrugs
- # [19:17] <@davidb> speed
- # [19:18] <@tbsaunde> really?
- # [19:18] <@davidb> ask web developers why they like canvsas.
- # [19:18] <@davidb> -s
- # [19:18] <@tbsaunde> heh
- # [19:18] <@tbsaunde> I can see it for things like games or animations
- # [19:19] <@tbsaunde> but I'd think a UI is much more widgets based than those are
- # [19:19] <@davidb> that statement should certainly be true
- # [19:21] <@tbsaunde> but I if we are actually dealing with canvas, then it just means b2g a11y depends on canvas a11y
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- # [19:24] <@davidb> yes, quite possibly
- # [19:25] <@davidb> well, assuming you mean the w3c solution.
- # [19:25] <@davidb> it might not be exactly that solution.
- # [19:26] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I meant what ever solution we decide to implement
- # [19:26] <@davidb> ok then agreed
- # [19:31] <@davidb> i think for Q1 we'll want to have just enough input such that we don't horrible decisions for us are not made
- # [19:32] <@davidb> i suspect Q2 can be more meaty
- # [19:32] <@davidb> except pretend that was all grammatical
- # [19:37] <@tbsaunde> davidb: sure, we might want to get tts work in q1 too, not really sure
- # [19:37] <@tbsaunde> but having some of that ready may be good
- # [19:37] <@davidb> yes
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- # [19:41] <@davidb> Oh good, we have two hubs.
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- # [19:41] <@tbsaunde> davidb: so, we can get twice the patches
- # [19:41] <@davidb> wfm
- # [19:42] <@davidb> just what your review queue needs
- # [19:43] <@tbsaunde> heh
- # [19:43] <@tbsaunde> the windows patches are the worst :(
- # [19:44] <@tbsaunde> but each of them has a bit where I go is that what we really want
- # [19:45] <@hub> davidb: the other is the mac
- # [19:50] <@davidb> yeah, i'm either mac or android on irc
- # [19:52] <@hub> davidb: I mean hub_ is me on the Mac
- # [19:52] <@davidb> yep
- # [19:52] <hub_> like that
- # [19:52] <@davidb> roger
- # [19:52] <@davidb> davidb_ is usually android
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- # [19:53] <davidb_> ;)
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- # [20:03] <@hub> what happened to https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=693343
- # [20:03] <@firebot> Bug 693343 maj, --, ---, trev.saunders, REOP, accessibility always disabled in GNOME 3 unless GNOME_ACCESSIBILITY is set
- # [20:03] <@hub> does that mean we'll need an aurora approval as well?
- # [20:07] <@tbsaunde> hub: some weird bug caused it to bunce
- # [20:07] <@tbsaunde> hub: it'll just make fx12 instead of fx11 if we can figure the bug out
- # [20:07] <@tbsaunde> we could ask for approaval, but I'm not sure it makes sense
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- # [20:25] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com granted review for attachment 582588 on bug 539699.
- # [20:25] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=539699 nor, --, ---, andrew.quartey, NEW, ITypeInfo nsAccessibleWrap member should be static
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- # [20:37] <@davidb> i will summarize that meeting with cjones as awesome.
- # [20:37] * @davidb waves to silvia
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- # [22:01] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Status on bug 619002 from REOPENED to RESOLVED.
- # [22:01] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk set the Resolution field on bug 619002 to FIXED.
- # [22:01] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=619002 nor, --, mozilla7, trev.saunders, RESO FIXED, When deleting text from edit fields the wrong text is reported through at-spi
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- # Session Close: Thu Dec 22 00:00:00 2011
The end :)