/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2012-01-26 / end
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- # Session Start: Thu Jan 26 00:00:00 2012
- # Session Ident: #accessibility
- # [00:03] <satdav> trying to find David Bolter does anyone in here know his nick
- # [00:05] <@hub> davidb
- # [00:05] <@hub> but he left earlier
- # [00:05] <satdav> cool
- # [00:05] <@hub> like at 14:14 pacific time
- # [00:05] <satdav> cool
- # [00:05] <satdav> is he in the mozilla office still
- # [00:05] <@hub> no idea
- # [00:05] <@hub> he is in Toronto
- # [00:05] <@hub> I'm in Vancouver
- # [00:06] <eeejay> and I am in Seattle!
- # [00:06] <satdav> whos based in toronto
- # [00:06] <satdav> who would be about
- # [00:06] <satdav> is christine based in toronto
- # [00:09] <@hub> it is like 6PM in Toronto
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- # [00:11] <satdav> cool
- # [00:11] <satdav> I see hes about
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- # [00:24] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org cancelled review?(surkov.alexander@gm ail.com) for attachment 590277 on bug 698823.
- # [00:24] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 591630 on bug 698823.
- # [00:24] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=698823 nor, --, mozilla10, eitan, NEW, Introduce virtual cursor/soft focus functionality to a11y API
- # [00:26] * @davidb chats
- # [00:28] <@hub> aboot we say here ;-)
- # [00:28] <@hub> eh
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- # [00:38] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 591634 on bug 698823.
- # [00:38] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=698823 nor, --, mozilla10, eitan, NEW, Introduce virtual cursor/soft focus functionality to a11y API
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- # [00:49] <satdav> hey guys
- # [00:52] <eeejay> hey satdav
- # [00:52] <satdav> hey eeejay
- # [00:52] <satdav> can we use this channel to take about the accessibility of the mozilla website
- # [00:52] <satdav> also
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- # [01:13] <@firebot> hub@mozilla.com cancelled review?(surkov.alexander@gm ail.com) for attachment 590956 on bug 672504.
- # [01:13] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=672504 nor, --, ---, hub, NEW, Don't keep pointer to weak presshell in accessible
- # [01:13] <@firebot> hub@mozilla.com requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 591646 on bug 672504.
- # [01:18] <eeejay> satdav, yes please.
- # [01:18] <eeejay> satdav, i had issues a while back about mozilla site accessibility and never found the right folks
- # [01:18] <satdav> eeejay, what issue
- # [01:18] <satdav> as cbrodigan would be able to help you
- # [01:19] <eeejay> satdav, how do i get the mobile site on a desktop browser?
- # [01:20] <satdav> I dont think we have a mobile site
- # [01:20] <eeejay> damn, i don't see the issue now
- # [01:20] <eeejay> http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/m/
- # [01:21] <eeejay> satdav, the issue i saw had to do with negative offsets of the top menu bar
- # [01:21] <satdav> thats not the mobile site
- # [01:21] <satdav> thats for fenic
- # [01:21] <satdav> the mobile browser
- # [01:21] <eeejay> satdav, it keeps them out of site, which is good for visual users, but screen readers will still read those elements
- # [01:22] <eeejay> satdav, it is the mobile-optimized site, no?
- # [01:22] <satdav> I am not sure
- # [01:24] <eeejay> satdav, anyway, welcome to the channel. i'll bother you or cbrodigan if i see issues again :)
- # [01:24] <satdav> eeejay, davidb is also part of the team
- # [01:24] <eeejay> cool, i know davidb
- # [01:24] <satdav> hub, you about
- # [01:25] <satdav> cool
- # [01:25] <@hub> brb
- # [01:25] <satdav> cool
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- # [01:31] <satdav> hey guys is anyone having issues editing the wiki
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- # [01:48] <satdav> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Websites/Accessibility
- # [01:48] <satdav> hey guys thats probly the best page for accessability
- # [01:49] <satdav> hub or a other admin can you add that link on the subject
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- # [06:42] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 590964 on bug 712927.
- # [06:42] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=712927 nor, --, ---, hub, NEW, [Mac] VoiceOver often repeats the document title as if it were a groupbox/fieldset heading/legend
- # [06:44] <@tbsaunde> man, the you requested review when you switch reviers thing is kind of anoying
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- # [07:12] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com cancelled review?(surkov.alexander@gm ail.com) for attachment 590964 on bug 712927.
- # [07:12] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=712927 nor, --, ---, hub, NEW, [Mac] VoiceOver often repeats the document title as if it were a groupbox/fieldset heading/legend
- # [07:12] <Mark_Capella> Hey Surkov
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- # [07:13] <@surkov> hey, Mark_Capella
- # [07:13] <Mark_Capella> I see you cc:ed on bug 589784 ... I started a discussion with DavidBolter about developing it ...
- # [07:13] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=589784 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Remove role="label" aria processing.
- # [07:15] <@surkov> sound good
- # [07:16] <Mark_Capella> I coed and tested a fix ... new to accessibility .... sent David some results ... is he usually responsive? Seems to have dropped out of sight
- # [07:16] <Mark_Capella> coded
- # [07:16] <@surkov> if you have a patch then upload it to the bug
- # [07:16] <@surkov> and ask for review
- # [07:17] <@surkov> you can ask David or somebody else in case if David is busy
- # [07:17] <Mark_Capella> Do I need to be assigned to it first
- # [07:17] <@surkov> if you have questions then you can ask them in bug too :)
- # [07:17] <@surkov> Mark_Capella: if you work on it then yes
- # [07:17] <@surkov> should I assign it to you?
- # [07:17] <Mark_Capella> Please :-)
- # [07:17] <@surkov> and usually David is responsive :)
- # [07:18] <@surkov> email?
- # [07:18] <Mark_Capella> markcapella@twcny.rr.com
- # [07:18] <@surkov> done
- # [07:18] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 589784 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
- # [07:19] <Mark_Capella> Thank you! Any comments re: this bug?
- # [07:19] <@surkov> Mark_Capella: yw, I didn't get about re: this bug
- # [07:20] <Mark_Capella> was wondering if you had any thoughts or guidance in general to watch for as I proceed
- # [07:23] <@surkov> Mark_Capella: I'm still not sure if I got you right :) usually you should do all collaboration through bugzilla, so if you have a question then ask in the bug, if you have a patch then upload it and ask for review
- # [07:23] <Mark_Capella> ok
- # [07:23] <@surkov> this is sometimes is faster because others can answer you
- # [07:24] <@surkov> so if mentor person goes to vacation or something else then you don't wait for feedback
- # [07:26] <@surkov> if you don't get an answer in bugzilla in reasonable time then you ask mentor what's wrong and if you don't get an answer from mentor then you do something else like you did, coming here and asking
- # [07:29] <Mark_Capella> Ok, thanks :-p
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- # [08:23] <@tbsaunde> surkov: can you watch aurora if I push bug 693343 in a few minutes?
- # [08:23] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=693343 maj, --, mozilla12, trev.saunders, RESO FIXED, accessibility always disabled in GNOME 3 unless GNOME_ACCESSIBILITY is set
- # [08:23] <@surkov> tbsaunde: sure
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- # [08:25] <@tbsaunde> surkov: thx
- # [08:26] <@tbsaunde> let me just check the backport works
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- # [08:32] <@MarcoZ> Hi surkov, tbsaunde!
- # [08:32] <@surkov> hey, MarcoZ
- # [08:33] <@tbsaunde> hey MarcoZ
- # [08:35] <@tbsaunde> surkov: pushing now
- # [08:35] <@surkov> ok
- # [08:35] * @tbsaunde realizes he just tested the wrong tree and tests the right one
- # [08:36] <@tbsaunde> well, I got lucky no problem
- # [08:38] <@MarcoZ> tbsaunde: :D
- # [08:43] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com denied review for attachment 591646 on bug 672504.
- # [08:43] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=672504 nor, --, ---, hub, NEW, Don't keep pointer to weak presshell in accessible
- # [08:47] <@tbsaunde> surkov: so, I'm curious when does a document have > 1 presShell?
- # [08:48] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 591712 on bug 718990.
- # [08:48] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=718990 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Atk-based plugins to slot into our a11y tree stucks orca in some flash web pages.
- # [08:53] <@surkov> tbsaunde: normal mode and print preview mode
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- # [08:56] <@tbsaunde> surkov: oic
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- # [09:02] * @tbsaunde wonders if the compiler optimizes x & y == y to !(x ^ y)
- # [09:02] <@tbsaunde> if the second actually is faster
- # [09:06] <@tbsaunde> surkov: are you going to review my trivial patch soon?
- # [09:06] <@surkov> ok
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- # [09:22] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com granted review for attachment 591712 on bug 718990.
- # [09:22] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=718990 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Atk-based plugins to slot into our a11y tree stucks orca in some flash web pages.
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- # [09:57] <@tbsaunde> surkov: oh, sorry didn't mean to make the patch that big, it should have been only the nsAccessibilityService.cpp part
- # [09:58] <@tbsaunde> I haven't proved with a debugger that's what's happening yet, but eperimentally if I build with that patch I think things are nolonger broken
- # [09:58] <@surkov> interesting
- # [09:59] <@tbsaunde> there's weird casting and stuff in the plugin code to get the string, so I'm not really sure but I think it might usually return "" when the plugin doesn't have an id
- # [09:59] <@tbsaunde> I should look more, but when I can think, so not now :)
- # [10:09] <@surkov> tbsaunde: can you think of automated testing?
- # [10:11] <@tbsaunde> surkov: not without testing of the platform stuff :(
- # [10:11] <@surkov> ok
- # [10:14] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Are you going to land the browser testing patch you provided a few days ago soon?
- # [10:14] * @MarcoZ is forgetting the bug number.
- # [10:14] <@surkov> MarcoZ: you need it for something?
- # [10:14] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Bug 719754.
- # [10:14] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=719754 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Rewrite a11y tests that put <tabbrowser> in random XUL documents and expect it to work
- # [10:14] <@MarcoZ> surkov: No, just wondering.
- # [10:15] <@MarcoZ> surkov: And I'd like to get those tests back. ;)
- # [10:15] <@surkov> ok, I'll land it for you asap :)
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- # [12:07] <@askalski> morning everyone
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- # [14:44] <@askalski> hi everyone!
- # [14:48] <@MarcoZ> Hi askalski!
- # [14:48] <@MarcoZ> Hi davidb!
- # [14:48] * @MarcoZ needs to run some errants, be back in 30.
- # [14:48] <@davidb> hi
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- # [15:25] <@askalski> hi tbsaunde, got a minute?
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- # [15:41] <@MarcoZ> Back.
- # [15:41] <@MarcoZ> Hi aaronlev!
- # [15:50] * @davidb adds WIP patch to canvas a11y bug
- # [15:50] * @davidb preps for a series of meetings
- # [15:53] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Nice! BTW is this the whole WIP, or are there files missing?
- # [15:53] <@davidb> that's all bubba
- # [15:58] <@davidb> MarcoZ: is the autocomplete stuff that landed in nightly recently working ok?
- # [15:59] <@davidb> hmm was that December?
- # [15:59] <@tbsaunde> askalski: about exactly one :/
- # [16:02] <@tbsaunde> askalski: what's up?
- # [16:03] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Yes it's working OK. NVDA nicely speaks if the AutoComplete finds something and puts it in the awesome bar. Unless I type too fast.
- # [16:04] * @MarcoZ is going to test the "new tab page" feature today.
- # [16:04] <@askalski> tbsaunde, just wanted to talk a moment about telemetry bug
- # [16:04] <@askalski> but I have 1:1 in a moment
- # [16:04] <@askalski> so I guess it's no the best moment
- # [16:04] <@tbsaunde> askalski: ack, be back about 1200 my time (1.5 rs)
- # [16:04] <@askalski> tbsaunde, ok
- # [16:11] * Joins: satdav (satdav@moz-1ECB932B.cable.virginmedia.com)
- # [16:11] <satdav> hi guys how are you all today
- # [16:13] <@MarcoZ> Hi satdav! Fine, thanks, and you?
- # [16:14] <satdav> I am also good MarcoZ
- # [16:14] <satdav> I am working on the wiki the now
- # [16:14] <satdav> MarcoZ, do you know the call details for the meeting today
- # [16:14] <satdav> as I am going to listen vie skype
- # [16:14] <@MarcoZ> satdav: Very cool! I read earlier today that you're volunteering to help improve the wiki. Very very nice!
- # [16:15] <satdav> I added a new page for accessibility
- # [16:15] <@MarcoZ> satdav: The accessibility meetings are usually on Wednesdays, so there is no team meeting today.
- # [16:15] <satdav> chelsea told me it was a thursday
- # [16:16] <satdav> sorry christine
- # [16:16] <satdav> it was
- # [16:18] <satdav> MarcoZ, whats your email and i will farward you it
- # [16:19] <satdav> got it
- # [16:19] <satdav> farwarded you the email she sent me
- # [16:21] <@MarcoZ> satdav: Oh that's a web project meeting, at least I usually do not participate in those.
- # [16:22] <satdav> cool
- # [16:22] <satdav> we are setting up a new list
- # [16:22] <@MarcoZ> satdav: Yes I read about that.
- # [16:23] <satdav> accessibility
- # [16:23] <satdav> that would be better I would say
- # [16:23] <satdav> MarcoZ, do you know if he filled out a new bug for it to be setup
- # [16:23] <@MarcoZ> satdav: So the phone details are usually the normal Mozilla dial-in numbers, and the extension is given in the conference room details. The conference room's extension is 5707 if I read that forwarded message correctly.
- # [16:24] <satdav> cool
- # [16:24] <@MarcoZ> Nope, there was no new bug for it yet, at least I haven't seen one. But davidb will be able to tell you.
- # [16:24] <satdav> so just the normal once I use for sumo and that
- # [16:25] <@MarcoZ> Yes right.
- # [16:25] <@MarcoZ> (that was re the dial-in)
- # [16:26] <@davidb> back
- # [16:26] <@davidb> should i read scroll back or do you guys have a summary? :)
- # [16:27] <@davidb> ok read it
- # [16:27] <@davidb> ah ok filing
- # [16:28] <satdav> thats fine davidb
- # [16:29] <@davidb> satdav: what is your bugmail address?
- # [16:29] <satdav> use dw38438@gmail.com
- # [16:29] <@davidb> ok
- # [16:30] <satdav> let me to know when the bug has been setup
- # [16:30] <satdav> and I will check it daily
- # [16:31] <@davidb> ok
- # [16:31] <@davidb> shortly
- # [16:31] <satdav> thats fine
- # [16:32] <satdav> I am kicking up at the sumo team the now
- # [16:34] <@davidb> satdav: bug 721388
- # [16:34] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=721388 nor, --, ---, gerv, NEW, Please create accessibility@lists.mozilla.org
- # [16:34] <satdav> thanks will check it
- # [16:36] <satdav> davidb, I wonder if you can comment on bug 720887
- # [16:36] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=720887 nor, --, ---, nobody, RESO WONTFIX, A Feature to make the text bigger
- # [16:36] <satdav> or any one else
- # [16:36] <satdav> who thinks that would be a good idea
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- # [16:36] <@davidb> hmmm mobile might have a bug for this
- # [16:37] * @davidb looks
- # [16:37] <satdav> cool
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- # [16:40] <satdav> speaking to the sumo dev team
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- # [16:41] <@davidb> satdav: so Firefox currently allows two ways to increase fonts. You can zoom, or you can go into preferences, content, fonts and colours, advanced and override page settings.
- # [16:41] <satdav> yes
- # [16:41] <@davidb> I think you probably want a 3rd way right?
- # [16:41] <satdav> but some people dont know how to do that
- # [16:41] <@davidb> ah
- # [16:41] <satdav> yes
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- # [16:42] <@davidb> So do you want to increase fonts (relatively), and only fonts?
- # [16:42] <@davidb> The page would re-layout to fit.
- # [16:42] <@davidb> zooming doesn't re-layout
- # [16:42] <satdav> yes
- # [16:42] <satdav> do you know what i mean
- # [16:42] <@davidb> ok
- # [16:42] <satdav> I added a example of what i mean
- # [16:42] <@davidb> I think I heard people want that on mobile.
- # [16:42] <@davidb> but i can't find the bug ATM
- # [16:43] <satdav> http://www.gdaonline.co.uk/
- # [16:43] <satdav> go their
- # [16:43] <satdav> and at the top you will see what i mean
- # [16:43] <satdav> by pressing the a
- # [16:43] <@davidb> yeah i know the idiom
- # [16:44] <satdav> I am kicking up at them at sumo
- # [16:44] <@davidb> I'm not familiar with that expression :)
- # [16:44] <@davidb> sounds painful
- # [16:44] <satdav> it means i am mad at the developers at sumo
- # [16:45] <@davidb> ah
- # [16:45] <@davidb> well, it is good to assume they are well intended.
- # [16:47] <satdav> they dont want the feature
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- # [16:47] <@davidb> satdav: I think this is sort of what you want to be in product https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/mobile/addon/bigger-text/
- # [16:48] <satdav> yes
- # [16:48] <satdav> davidb, do you know Matt Brubeck irc nick
- # [16:49] <satdav> as he is a mozilla staff menber
- # [16:49] <@davidb> a little
- # [16:50] <@askalski> MarcoZ, hi, got a moment?
- # [16:52] * Quits: Mark_Capella (chatzilla@moz-DD0C7E4F.twcny.res.rr.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 12.0a1/20120125104453])
- # [16:54] <@MarcoZ> askalski: Sure!
- # [16:55] * Quits: peteb-away (ptbrunet@moz-E9B02845.austin.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout)
- # [16:55] <@askalski> MarcoZ, I am looking on a patch
- # [16:55] <@askalski> * bug 17506
- # [16:55] <@MarcoZ> askalski: Yes?
- # [16:55] <@askalski> 717506
- # [16:55] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17506 nor, P3, M12, dbragg, VERI FIXED, Need to reimplement the Confirmation dialog
- # [16:56] <@askalski> right, I run a build with about:telemetry addon
- # [16:56] <@askalski> and I see no a11y related statistichs
- # [16:56] <@askalski> *statistics
- # [16:57] <@askalski> is that normal?
- # [16:57] <@askalski> or I build something wrong
- # [16:57] <@davidb> askalski: the add-on shows you telemetry data for the current session
- # [16:58] <@MarcoZ> askalski: Phew, no, it should have at least some telemetry data regarding a11y. Problem is this stuff is very visual, so it was mostly davidb and surkov dealing with it. Don't know if there needs to be a special switch flipped to get accessibility telemetry displayed.
- # [16:58] <@davidb> askalski: so you want to make sure you instantiate a11y (use a screen reader or something)
- # [16:58] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Thanks!
- # [16:58] <@davidb> np
- # [16:58] <@askalski> ok, so if I get ORCA installed in this distro, it will start by itself, or some other stuff should be done?
- # [16:59] <@askalski> orca or any other screen reader
- # [16:59] <@davidb> satdav: do you know Ken Saunders?
- # [16:59] <satdav> nope were is he based
- # [16:59] <@davidb> satdav: http://www.accessfirefox.org/
- # [17:00] <@davidb> satdav: He has been with the project a long time as a volunteer.
- # [17:00] * Joins: hub (hub@83874EA1.EB7C1AF9.6F478678.IP)
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- # [17:00] <@davidb> satdav: I think you should coordinate with him on font size issues/requests.
- # [17:00] <satdav> cool
- # [17:00] <satdav> what is his irc name
- # [17:00] <@davidb> I've never seen him on IRC
- # [17:01] <@davidb> unfortunately
- # [17:01] <satdav> cool
- # [17:02] <@davidb> satdav: http://www.accessfirefox.org/AFx_About_Ken_Saunders.php
- # [17:04] <satdav> will give him a email
- # [17:04] <@davidb> great
- # [17:09] <@askalski> davidb, I got orca installed, how to enable a11y in telemetry?
- # [17:10] * davidb is now known as davidb|1on1
- # [17:10] * Joins: Mark_Capella (chatzilla@moz-DD0C7E4F.twcny.res.rr.com)
- # [17:15] <@askalski> MarcoZ, I launched orca and a11y telemetry showed up
- # [17:16] <satdav> davidb|1on1, seen christine is not about yet, what time zone is she on
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- # [17:22] <@askalski> tbsaunde, ping me once you come back plz
- # [17:27] <@davidb|1on1> askalski: great
- # [17:27] * davidb|1on1 is now known as davidb
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- # [17:27] <@davidb> satdav: Mountain View
- # [17:27] <@davidb> Pacific
- # [17:28] <satdav> cool
- # [17:28] <@askalski> davidb, can you tell me how to turn any xforms on, so I can test?
- # [17:28] <satdav> christine has been in here now
- # [17:28] <@davidb> askalski: there is an extension required
- # [17:28] <@askalski> I have several guesses where to attach my code, I just need to be able to trigger the event
- # [17:28] <@askalski> what extension?
- # [17:29] <@davidb> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/mozilla-xforms/
- # [17:29] <@davidb> not sure you'll be able to use it with nightly :/
- # [17:29] <@davidb> you can force compatibility via this extension https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/nightly-tester-tools/?src=search
- # [17:29] <@davidb> (it might work, might not)
- # [17:30] <@davidb> and yes it is a bit crazy that we have core engine a11y implementation for an extension only feature
- # [17:30] <@davidb> which is why we are interested in how many people use it
- # [17:31] <@askalski> davidb, ok
- # [17:33] <@MarcoZ> Yeah I fell into that xforms trap once, too. :)
- # [17:33] <@MarcoZ> 4 years ago when I wanted to test whether it really worked. Long time ago.
- # [17:34] <@davidb> i keep forgetting.
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- # [17:34] <@MarcoZ> davidb: So, can you see any first data from the screen reader telemetry?
- # [17:35] * @davidb looks
- # [17:35] <@askalski> MarcoZ, telemetry a11y started by itself once I loaded orca. the funny thing is orca is unloaded right now (or at least I can't ps | grep it's deamon) and the data still shows up
- # [17:36] <@davidb> MarcoZ: yes!
- # [17:36] <@MarcoZ> askalski: Once enabled, it doesn't turn off unless you restart Firefox.
- # [17:36] <@MarcoZ> davidb: And what do you see?
- # [17:37] <@askalski> MarcoZ, but I have restarted firefox several times
- # [17:37] <@davidb> I think I see only NVDA and Jaws
- # [17:37] <@MarcoZ> askalski: Hhmmmm, I keep forgetting when a11y on Linux gets uninstanciated again. There were so many changes in GNOME when it transitioned from CORBA to D-Bus and within GNOME3 with its different ways to turn or pref it on that I lost track. Best ask tbsaunde when he comes back.
- # [17:38] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Interesting!
- # [17:38] <@davidb> hum
- # [17:38] <@MarcoZ> NVDA must be me at least. I don't think i used JAWS this week.
- # [17:39] <@askalski> MarcoZ, davidb , ok, so in general, if you need someone to take track of changes in ubuntu/unity and linux in general, I am volunteering once I get some understanding of accessibility component
- # [17:39] <@davidb> sounds good
- # [17:40] <@davidb> MarcoZ: can you add askalski's suggestion to next weeks agenda?
- # [17:40] <@davidb> i need to find Taras
- # [17:41] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Will do!
- # [17:42] <@davidb> askalski: another thing coming down the pipe is SVG accessibility but I'm not even at the point to discuss it :)
- # [17:43] <@askalski> pipe in SVG?
- # [17:43] <@askalski> right
- # [17:43] <@askalski> SVG accessibility
- # [17:43] <@askalski> ok, I haven't got the idiom on-the-fly
- # [17:47] <@davidb> :)
- # [17:47] <@askalski> ok, I got the extension installed (marked as incompatible). does it turn on automatically? how to check if it's working?
- # [17:49] <@davidb> askalski: gee
- # [17:49] <@davidb> i guess you need to google for xforms examples
- # [17:50] * @davidb has never used them
- # [17:51] <@askalski> davidb, ok, I google :)
- # [17:52] <@davidb> MarcoZ: I found the data from when I was testing. I can see other readers, but incredibly small usage rate :)
- # [17:53] <@davidb> ah there is cobra even
- # [17:53] <@davidb> heh
- # [17:54] <@davidb> MarcoZ: I wonder if we should ask people to turn performance data reporting on
- # [17:56] <@hub> askalski: GNOME_ACCESSIBILITY=1 firefox
- # [17:56] <@hub> this shoudl start firefox with accessibility on on Linux
- # [17:57] <@askalski> hub, to which question of mine you post that answer? will it enable xforms?
- # [17:57] * @davidb slaps forehead
- # [17:57] <@davidb> hub: right
- # [17:57] <@davidb> askalski: to instantiate a11y
- # [17:58] <@hub> askalski: to enable a11y in Firefox
- # [17:58] <@davidb> you don't need orca then
- # [17:59] <@askalski> davidb, orca is in standard ubuntu installment, that's nice. I'll add the line anyway. but to be sincere now it opens all the time, I guess that some instance of orca works in a background and firefox detects it
- # [17:59] <@askalski> the a11y instantiates all the time
- # [17:59] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
- # [17:59] <@askalski> so I can't reproduce situation in which it hasn't :D
- # [17:59] <@askalski> *hadn't
- # [18:00] <@davidb> probably has a setting
- # [18:03] <@askalski> davidb, ok, I'll try to find that out later, now I am on xforms. Actually it's confusing, there's a linux library named the same, something with X-window system
- # [18:03] <@davidb> oh
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- # [18:11] <@hub> yep
- # [18:11] <@hub> xforms is an ugly toolkit library
- # [18:14] <@askalski> hub, yep, the screenshots looks like middleages
- # [18:15] <@hub> it was modern. they were already using C++ instead of reinventing some object model in C like in *cough* Gtk
- # [18:16] <@askalski> hub, is Gtk really so bad? I have no much experience, but most people from my faculty use it
- # [18:16] <@askalski> and they prefer it over qt, xwidgets and all other stuff
- # [18:16] <@askalski> mostly because gtk#
- # [18:16] <@hub> gtk in C is a bucket on self inflicted pain
- # [18:17] <@MarcoZ> ROFLMAO!
- # [18:17] <@hub> gtkmm (C++) makes it palatable
- # [18:17] <@MarcoZ> davidb: I can put out a blog post asking nightly users to turn Telemetry on.
- # [18:17] <@askalski> right, gtkmm and gtk# what the use
- # [18:18] <@davidb> gobject forever!
- # [18:18] <@askalski> :D
- # [18:18] <@davidb> X forever!
- # [18:19] * @davidb vomits a little
- # [18:19] <@MarcoZ> LOL
- # [18:19] <@hub> askalski: gtk#, no thanks. if I wanted to use a VM, I'd stick to Javascript
- # [18:19] <@hub> not some pseudo Java owned by MSFT
- # [18:20] <@hub> davidb: with Gtk you barely see X
- # [18:20] <@askalski> hub, right, but the guy who writes a scene-editor to habanero is visual studio addicted
- # [18:20] <@hub> askalski: Vistual Studio support C and C++ too
- # [18:20] <@askalski> btw, isn't there some kind of advantage of using C over C++? year ago I wrote a distributed floyd-warshall algorithm and C version was twice as fast. gcc couldn't for example properly expand inline indexing operators etc
- # [18:22] <@askalski> yeah, but if you're building a window-rich application (and visual scene editor is all about windows and controls) we don't know the easier way than C#. I mean, the engine in background is in C++, but all the interface... just to much to take care of
- # [18:23] <@askalski> it's like writing an visual instant messenger - in C#/java you write one within 4 hours. In c++ you spend 6-8 on just setting the windows and callbacks
- # [18:23] <@davidb> MarcoZ: telemetry seems to suggest that NVDA and Jaws are both being run at the same time. Is that likely?
- # [18:25] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Unlikely. They would both be speaking at the same time and interfere with each other in keyboard hooking and other parts.
- # [18:25] <@hub> askalski: there is nothing C# can do than C++ can't, even more if you use Gtk#
- # [18:26] <@davidb> MarcoZ: is there a way to shut one up?
- # [18:26] <@hub> as for using C instead of C++, it is like the old debate of assembly vs C
- # [18:26] <@askalski> hub, yes, I know. it's just about saving time. we write a game engine + scene editor with a power of three students. we need to do savings
- # [18:26] <@davidb> MarcoZ: is there a way both dlls would be commonly injected?
- # [18:26] <@hub> askalski: not even saving time
- # [18:26] <@MarcoZ> davidb: In theory, yes, you could put one to sleep while using the other, but there would still be interference. I would never do that beause I'd be afraid of false results.
- # [18:27] * @tbsaunde returns
- # [18:27] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Only if they are run together.
- # [18:27] * @davidb wonders if c# gc is decent
- # [18:27] <@davidb> MarcoZ: ok
- # [18:27] <@tbsaunde> I tend to think if your writing UI code you've already lost whatever language it is
- # [18:27] <@MarcoZ> davidb: There may be one case where I can think of this case: One screen reader crashes, but something is left in the Firefox process, and the user starts the other to gain control over his machine back.
- # [18:27] <@MarcoZ> davidb: But usually, if a screen reader DLL that is injected into our process crashes, it takes us down with it.
- # [18:27] <@davidb> tbsaunde: haha
- # [18:28] * @davidb nods
- # [18:28] <@tbsaunde> I've written one tiny bad gui in python using gtk it was sort of ok
- # [18:29] <@tbsaunde> but gobject is like "hey, I have a great idea lets implement C++ ourselves and do our best to make it tolerable with macros"
- # [18:29] <@askalski> hi tbsaunde :)
- # [18:29] <@tbsaunde> or "cfront is great, but we can make it better by doing the C++ -> C transform ourselves
- # [18:29] <@tbsaunde> askalski: hi :)
- # [18:29] <@tbsaunde> how is it going?
- # [18:30] * @davidb steps out
- # [18:30] <@tbsaunde> askalski: me and Ginn Chen are usually the ones who deal with linux stuff, but there's stuff that needs to be worked on that I don't have time for :)
- # [18:31] <@tbsaunde> and Ginn usually only actively fixes stuff when it breaks solaris
- # [18:31] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
- # [18:31] <@tbsaunde> *slolaris
- # [18:32] <@askalski> tbsaunde, well, it'll probably take some time before I become useful, but if you trace any easy bugs, just assign them to me
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- # [18:33] <@tbsaunde> askalski: there's bug 686909 which I have a sort of wip hack ptch for but that isn't really easy
- # [18:33] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=686909 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, The system suffix is for system generated events only
- # [18:33] <@tbsaunde> there's another one about show / hide events and bad assumptions the atk support makes about when they're fired
- # [18:34] <@tbsaunde> I don't remember the bug # off hand but its fairly recent and mentions asserts
- # [18:34] * Quits: @askalski (akuda@moz-6A36EC49.ip.abpl.pl) (Ping timeout)
- # [18:34] * eeejay loves gobject
- # [18:36] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: do you enjoy hurting your self too? ;-)
- # [18:37] <eeejay> Only with macros :)
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- # [18:37] * ChanServ sets mode: +o askalski
- # [18:37] <@tbsaunde> askalski: hey, just before you timed out I said
- # [18:38] <@hub> tbsaunde: GObject is why they also wrote their own inconsistent language. And they made it like cfront...
- # [18:38] <@tbsaunde> <@tbsaunde> askalski: there's bug 686909 which I have a sort of wip hack ptch for but that isn't really easy
- # [18:38] <@tbsaunde> <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=686909 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, The system suffix is for system generated events only
- # [18:38] <@tbsaunde> <@tbsaunde> there's another one about show / hide events and bad assumptions the atk support makes about when they're fired
- # [18:38] <@tbsaunde> <@tbsaunde> I don't remember the bug # off hand but its fairly recent and mentions asserts
- # [18:38] <@hub> tbsaunde: I volunteer to help in the Linux side too.
- # [18:39] <@askalski> tbsaunde, I'll ping you back about that once I finish with xforms-telemetry
- # [18:39] <@tbsaunde> hub: yeah, I've heard about that mess
- # [18:39] <@tbsaunde> askalski: sounds good
- # [18:39] <@hub> the only reason I use Gtk for my photo app is because if I was using Qt it would look alien in Gnome and alien in KDE (as I hate KDE UI in general)
- # [18:39] <@tbsaunde> hub: those are the issues I know of bugs for there's certainly others
- # [18:39] <@tbsaunde> there's an orca meta bug with a bunch of depenendancies that are open
- # [18:40] <@hub> tbsaunde: the thing is my plate is quite full right now :-/
- # [18:40] <@tbsaunde> most of them are non trivial iirc
- # [18:40] <@tbsaunde> hub: I know, its cool
- # [18:40] * @tbsaunde is mostly trying to let people know the state of the world :)
- # [18:41] <@tbsaunde> if you run firefox with orca running gobject wines every now and again about things not being valid atk objects, which is an issue I have never really looked into
- # [18:41] <@askalski> tbsaunde, ok, I think I am prepared to start writing a patch to telemetry and xforms, but the bug isn't quite clear - do you want just a binary flag "xforms used" or some statistics?
- # [18:41] <@tbsaunde> since my plate is really full to :/
- # [18:43] <@askalski> tbsaunde, ^
- # [18:44] <@tbsaunde> askalski: just a binary flag
- # [18:45] <@askalski> ok
- # [18:45] * Quits: mike5w3c (MikeS@moz-DAFE1A45.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: mike5w3c)
- # [18:45] <@tbsaunde> askalski: see the patch for bug 678799
- # [18:45] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678799 nor, --, mozilla8, trev.saunders, RESO FIXED, TELEMETRY FOR A11Y INITIALIZATION
- # [18:46] <satdav> davidb, ping
- # [18:46] <@askalski> tbsaunde, yes, I started with that, thanks
- # [18:48] <@tbsaunde> davidb: so, let me get the xforms situation strait, in teee there is a11y support, and some interface headers in tree, but no intree impl?
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- # [19:33] <@tbsaunde> askalski: how goes?
- # [19:34] <@askalski> tbsaunde, recompiling, I made a hook in wrong place
- # [19:34] <@askalski> in several minutes I'll test again
- # [19:34] <@tbsaunde> askalski: sounds good :)
- # [19:34] <@askalski> I placed a trigger in nsXFormsAccessibleBase constructor
- # [19:34] <@askalski> but if that get's triggered every time I'll move it
- # [19:35] <@askalski> now my computer gonna die linking :D
- # [19:36] <@tbsaunde> I'd expect that'd be called each time someone creates an xforms object, not sure if we wnat that or not
- # [19:36] * shorlander is now known as shorlander-away
- # [19:37] <@askalski> tbsaunde, I tought that's what we want. I understood the bug as "provide a stat whether xforms are used or not"
- # [19:37] * Quits: ehsan (ehsan@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Ping timeout)
- # [19:37] <@askalski> tbsaunde, I can limit telemetry calls to one by using static flag within inline void function
- # [19:38] <@askalski> like static bool telemetry_called = false; if(!telemetry_called) call telemetry and set the flag to true
- # [19:41] <@tbsaunde> askalski: use per run of firefox isn't what we want
- # [19:42] <@tbsaunde> but I'm not sure if we care about how many xforms things there are if a doc uses them
- # [19:42] <@tbsaunde> it might be reasonable to put a bool in the document
- # [19:43] * shorlander-away is now known as shorlander
- # [19:44] <@tbsaunde> so, when an xforms object is created tell its doc it uses xforms, and if that doc hasn't used xforms yet notify telemetry
- # [19:45] <@askalski> tbsaunde, ok, I'll try to do that
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- # [19:45] <@askalski> tbsaunde, is there any special place I need to put some info about a chart other than TelemetryHistograms.h ?
- # [19:46] <@askalski> because I haven't been able to display one I defined so far in any case
- # [19:46] <@askalski> I understand that TelemetryHistograms.h is an expando-file, right?
- # [19:47] <@tbsaunde> askalski: that should be the only place, and ye
- # [19:47] <@tbsaunde> *yes
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- # [19:47] <@askalski> tbsaunde, that's weird, I never get any output. I guess I'll run it with debugger, and check if the trigger takes place
- # [19:48] <@tbsaunde> askalski: makes sense
- # [19:48] <@tbsaunde> are you rebuilding the relavent stuff?
- # [19:48] <@askalski> because right now I have two options: a) telemetry creates charts only to non-zero values and I just messed the trigger b) for some reason it ingores my chart at all, and I need to do something with that
- # [19:48] <@tbsaunde> I'd think you need to rebuild toolkit/
- # [19:48] <@askalski> tbsaunde, that might be the problem
- # [19:49] <@askalski> i'm doing make -f client.mk, and installed telemetry from official addon-site
- # [19:49] <@tbsaunde> rebuilding jsut accessible/ certainly isn't enough
- # [19:49] <@tbsaunde> then you should be fine
- # [19:49] <@askalski> ok, I'll run the debugger
- # [19:53] <@askalski> tbsaunde, where document is defined in a11y?
- # [19:53] <@askalski> or do I have to use some more global one
- # [19:53] <@tbsaunde> askalski: nsDocAccessible
- # [19:53] <@askalski> thx
- # [19:54] <@tbsaunde> np
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- # [19:57] <@davidb> satdav: pong
- # [19:57] <@davidb> tbsaunde: yes that's my understanding
- # [19:57] <satdav> davidb, can you update the subject
- # [19:58] <@davidb> satdav: of?
- # [19:58] <@davidb> (sorry lots on the go here)
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- # [19:58] <satdav> in this channel
- # [19:58] <@davidb> satdav: yes I can.
- # [19:59] <@tbsaunde> davidb: B|
- # [19:59] <@davidb> tbsaunde: I don't know the history
- # [19:59] <@askalski> btw, Nevimer rocks
- # [19:59] <@askalski> *Nemiver
- # [19:59] <@askalski> the debugger stuff
- # [19:59] <@davidb> never heard of it
- # [20:00] <@davidb> satdav: do you have something in mind?
- # [20:01] <@tbsaunde> davidb:appers to be a gtk gui debugger
- # [20:01] * @tbsaunde should get the gdb python for mozilla stuff working
- # [20:02] <@tbsaunde> I should also figure out where ~/useful-moz-hacks.patch went to and make it more useful
- # [20:04] <@askalski> tbsaunde, there is a problem
- # [20:04] <@askalski> I ran ff through debugger
- # [20:05] <@askalski> with breakpoints on constructor of nsXFormsAccessibleBase and it looks like it's never called
- # [20:05] <satdav> adding a bit of info to the page the now
- # [20:05] <@askalski> zero count
- # [20:05] <@tbsaunde> askalski: is this on a page with xforms in it?
- # [20:06] <@tbsaunde> davidb: MarcoZ do we have any tests for xforms?
- # [20:06] <@davidb> satdav: what page?
- # [20:06] <@askalski> yes, I downloaded some piece of code and saved it as a local html file
- # [20:06] <@askalski> I can pastebin it, but it has <xforms:model> tag etc
- # [20:07] <@tbsaunde> askalski: ok
- # [20:07] <@tbsaunde> askalski: it sounds our xforms support might be busted, or maybe the addon needs updated
- # [20:07] <@askalski> tbsaunde, http://pastebin.com/MwXewSwW
- # [20:08] <@askalski> it's from some popular google result to "xforms example"
- # [20:09] * @davidb investigated rendered text
- # [20:09] <@askalski> btw, it might be outdated, as it does not display the "submit" button (or any other control, it's just text) but chromium displays it the same way as ff, so I didn't care
- # [20:09] <@askalski> davidb, how do you do these * <nick> <what you're doing> ?
- # [20:09] <@askalski> on IRC. is it automatic?
- # [20:09] <@davidb> askalski: /me foo
- # [20:09] * @davidb foo
- # [20:10] <@askalski> ok, thanks
- # [20:10] <@davidb> np
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- # [20:10] * @askalski trying /me
- # [20:10] <@askalski> :D
- # [20:10] <@tbsaunde> askalski: could be chrome doesn't support xforms
- # [20:10] <@davidb> heh
- # [20:10] <@askalski> well it does display input things
- # [20:10] <@askalski> as well as ff, actually both displays the same page
- # [20:11] <@askalski> two inputs, no buttons or anything, some text
- # [20:11] <@davidb> MarcoZ: did you hear from Matt Campbell?
- # [20:12] <@askalski> tbsaunde, it looks like the inputs are standard "<input..." tag
- # [20:12] <@askalski> so I guess I'll look for another example
- # [20:12] <@tbsaunde> askalski: honestly I have no idea
- # [20:12] <@tbsaunde> I'd have to debug why its broken
- # [20:12] <@askalski> tbsaunde, oh, the example is from w3c webpage
- # [20:13] <@tbsaunde> and let me tell you how much I want to spend time debugging why xforms doesn't work
- # [20:13] <@askalski> :D
- # [20:13] <@tbsaunde> davidb: thoughts?
- # [20:14] <@tbsaunde> should we ignore the problem? or assume that because its broken and nobody has complained that we can remove it, or something else
- # [20:14] <@askalski> tbsaunde, just please review the pastebin I sent you
- # [20:14] <@askalski> if that's a correct test case
- # [20:14] <@tbsaunde> askalski: I have /no idea/ if that is corrrect xforms or not
- # [20:15] <@tbsaunde> davidb might know, but not me
- # [20:15] <@askalski> tbsaunde, ok, I'll torment someone else with that
- # [20:17] <@davidb> I not nothing about xforms
- # [20:17] <@davidb> -t
- # [20:17] <@davidb> +kw :)
- # [20:18] <@tbsaunde> davidb: but you speak more web than I do ;)
- # [20:18] <@davidb> aaronlev might
- # [20:19] <@askalski> I guess it's a wrong file, let me google some time more before calling people
- # [20:19] <@tbsaunde> askalski: it wouldn't suprise me at all if our code is broken here
- # [20:19] <@tbsaunde> now that I think about this I'd be a bit suprised if it worked
- # [20:21] <satdav> would be a idea to link to the wiki https://wiki.mozilla.org/Websites/Accessibility
- # [20:22] <@davidb> well that is brand new!
- # [20:22] * @davidb thinkgs
- # [20:22] <@davidb> satdav: so are you creating a web accessibility team/community?
- # [20:23] <satdav> well yes
- # [20:23] <satdav> well would be a good idea
- # [20:23] <@davidb> satdav: have you got an okay to do this?
- # [20:23] <satdav> spoke to christine about that yesterday
- # [20:23] <satdav> well christine said it was ok
- # [20:23] <@davidb> ok
- # [20:24] <@davidb> satdav: it would be good to add the purpose of this group somewhere, the scope etc.
- # [20:24] <@davidb> on that wiki page
- # [20:24] <satdav> yes
- # [20:25] <satdav> well its for general infromation the now
- # [20:25] <satdav> christine is going to come in here
- # [20:25] <@askalski> davidb, tbsaunde, you know, something is wrong. Absolutely no example found in the internet displays properly either in any build of firefox I have and either with chromium
- # [20:25] <satdav> and we are going to make this the new accessibility channel
- # [20:25] <@askalski> as if it was a dead standard noone uses
- # [20:25] <@askalski> and noone supports
- # [20:25] <@davidb> satdav: I'm not sure also if it is best to use this channel. #webdev would seem more appropriate to me.
- # [20:25] <satdav> cool
- # [20:26] <satdav> so whats this channel for
- # [20:26] <@tbsaunde> askalski: ok
- # [20:26] <@askalski> or the plugin is broken
- # [20:26] <@tbsaunde> askalski: when was it last updated? for which firefox?
- # [20:27] <@davidb> satdav: accessibility, but the actual people who work on the accessibility engine in C++ are the main users of this channel. I think if you want to have impact, you need to choose the channel where the people doing the work you are interested in hang out.
- # [20:27] <@askalski> tbsaunde, let me try with my stable build
- # [20:27] <@askalski> yet
- # [20:28] <@davidb> satdav: in fact, that makes me wonder if you should use the web dev mailing list.
- # [20:28] <@davidb> satdav: I guess I need to know your goals.
- # [20:28] <@askalski> tbsaunde, may 17, 2010
- # [20:28] <@askalski> and unavailable for stable build
- # [20:28] <@davidb> satdav: does this make sense?
- # [20:28] <@askalski> I'd have to force compatiblity again. I guess the standard is dead.
- # [20:28] <satdav> I am not c++ I am just a user
- # [20:28] <@davidb> askalski: that is possible
- # [20:29] <satdav> I am giving them feedback on the site and working with them
- # [20:29] <@davidb> satdav: ok great that sounds very much web dev specific to me.
- # [20:29] <@tbsaunde> well, I think it needs a binary component to work
- # [20:29] <satdav> cool
- # [20:29] <satdav> so i will change the wiki to webdev
- # [20:29] <@davidb> makes sense to me
- # [20:29] <@tbsaunde> so, that's not going to work, and it sounds the extenssion is sort of dead
- # [20:30] <@davidb> satdav: but be sure to check in with web dev :)
- # [20:30] <satdav> davidb, #www
- # [20:31] <@tbsaunde> askalski: is source avaialbe for the extension?
- # [20:31] <satdav> we are using
- # [20:31] <@davidb> thanks
- # [20:32] <@tbsaunde> askalski: well, probably not worth the effort to forward port it just to test
- # [20:32] <@askalski> tbsaunde, I see no code, but I found this on MDN XForms page:
- # [20:32] <@askalski> This extension, while supporting a significant subset of the XForms 1.0 and 1.1 candidate recommendations, is not actively maintained any more since about 2010. The last official release has been done for Firefox 3.6 and is available for download on addons.mozilla.org.
- # [20:33] <@tbsaunde> askalski: ok
- # [20:33] <@askalski> tbsaunde, so I'll post this info on bugzilla and ... close the bug?
- # [20:33] <@tbsaunde> askalski: umm, I wouldn't close it yet
- # [20:34] <@askalski> ok, so I'll just post the findings
- # [20:34] <@tbsaunde> if we decide to get rid of xforms support then we can wontfix it
- # [20:34] <@tbsaunde> askalski: yeah, and maybe send mail to dev-accessibility and maybe dev-platform?
- # [20:34] <@tbsaunde> davidb: thoughts on ^?
- # [20:36] <@askalski> tbsaunde, I guess that's not really to dev-accessibility if entire standard is non-usable with modern firefox versions
- # [20:37] <@davidb> askalski: dev-platform
- # [20:40] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
- # [20:41] <@askalski> I'll try with IE yet the test cases I created. should I post them as well?
- # [20:43] <@askalski> god, where did m$ hide the "file/open"?
- # [20:55] <@askalski> davidb, I planned to post the test files I copy-n-pasted from some google results, but of course I can't remember their sources. should I post them anyway, or don't?
- # [20:55] <@askalski> davidb, I mean posting to bugzilla as attachment to my comment to bug
- # [20:55] <@davidb> sure
- # [21:03] <@askalski> davidb, what exactly should I send to dev-platform? A question whether they plan to support xforms in future as we don't know whether to remove our code or not?
- # [21:04] <@askalski> or a bug that posted examples does not display properly to my reckon?
- # [21:04] <@davidb> askalski: I would wait. Email surkov and tell him you'd like to ask platform whether xforms is dead as far as new releases of FF is concerned.
- # [21:04] <@davidb> surkov has been closest to the xforms story
- # [21:04] <@askalski> OK, on it
- # [21:04] <@hub> *sigh* conflicting review with other bug *sigh*
- # [21:05] <@davidb> hub: put them in a room.
- # [21:05] <@davidb> or is it the same review?
- # [21:05] <@davidb> er
- # [21:05] <@hub> davidb: same reporter, yeah
- # [21:05] <@hub> reporter / reviewer
- # [21:05] <@davidb> then they should win a rubber chicken or something
- # [21:07] <@hub> nevermind, I'll just follow the review
- # [21:07] <@tbsaunde> what bugs are these?
- # [21:08] <@askalski> thunderbird keeps suggesting to change bugzilla to godzilla in every e-mail. we should update spellcheck dictionaries :)
- # [21:08] <@askalski> btw, I thought about an upgrade to spellchecking, where to post it?
- # [21:10] <@tbsaunde> askalski: file a bug, I have no idea what component
- # [21:10] <@askalski> I guess it should deduce the language of paragraph using linguistic statistics. I could prototype (and optimize) the algorithm of merging installed dictionaries into a deciding mechanism
- # [21:10] <@tbsaunde> I believe we mostly just use hunspell
- # [21:10] <@askalski> it's nice algorithmical task, and if it performs well...
- # [21:11] <@askalski> hmm. shame. some great text algorithms are inventions of my our professor, I could really take advantage of that
- # [21:11] <@davidb> askalski: I'd ask ehsan
- # [21:11] <ehsan> ?
- # [21:12] <@askalski> ehsan, I am thinking whether it's possible to create a mechanism that deduces the language of paragraph (choses the most probable one among installed dictionaries), and if it's possible, I'd probably like to take part in that
- # [21:12] <@hub> btw why adding an empty virtual dtor when a parent class already has one?
- # [21:13] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
- # [21:13] <ehsan> askalski: you can call GetLang() which will return the language based on the rules about the lang attribute
- # [21:13] <ehsan> we don't support anything beyond that in gecko
- # [21:14] <@davidb> ehsan: do we want to?
- # [21:14] <@askalski> ehsan, "rules about the lang attribute"? you mean the one we set manually within context menu?
- # [21:14] <@tbsaunde> hub: my main reason would be so we don't have to remember if something inherits from it some day
- # [21:14] <ehsan> davidb: it's a very hard thing to do
- # [21:14] <ehsan> askalski: lookup the lang attribute in the html5 spec
- # [21:14] <@hub> tbsaunde: which is about the same reason I expect curly braces everywhere
- # [21:15] <@hub> while the virtual dtor think is actually caught by compiler warnings
- # [21:15] <@askalski> ehsan, so we are expecting that all input boxes will eventually be marked properly, right?
- # [21:15] <@tbsaunde> sure, but braces are anoying virtual dtors aren't
- # [21:16] <ehsan> askalski: I don't really know what problem you're trying to solve
- # [21:16] <@askalski> ehsan, I'm not sceptic, I think it will happen eventually. it would just make my idea not necessairy, that's why I ask
- # [21:16] <@davidb> tbsaunde: yeah, I used to get food stuck in my braces.
- # [21:16] <ehsan> askalski: well I still don't know what problem you're trying to solve :)
- # [21:17] <@askalski> ehsan, the problem is real life - if I use two languages (native and english) I end up switching spellchecking setting several times a day
- # [21:17] <ehsan> so GetLang() may or may not be useful
- # [21:17] <ehsan> oh ok
- # [21:17] <ehsan> so you're talking about spellchecking
- # [21:17] <ehsan> there's a bug for multi-dictionary spell checking support
- # [21:17] <ehsan> hunspell supports it
- # [21:17] <@askalski> ehsan, as a user, it's annoying. I guess that a user-friendly browser (or e-mail client) may deduce it after fourth word I write without me touching a mouse
- # [21:17] <@davidb> ehsan: is that code perilous?
- # [21:17] <ehsan> we need somebody to work on it to make the gecko bindings support it as well
- # [21:18] <ehsan> davidb: not really
- # [21:18] <ehsan> askalski: I agree
- # [21:18] <@davidb> ehsan: can you grab the bug #?
- # [21:18] <@MarcoZ> davidb: No, I haven't heard from Matt. He just didn't reply to my direct message on Twitter.
- # [21:18] <ehsan> bug 69687
- # [21:18] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69687 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Spellchecker: Multiple language design
- # [21:18] <ehsan> davidb: ^
- # [21:18] <@tbsaunde> davidb: :p
- # [21:18] * @MarcoZ is off for the evening now.
- # [21:18] <@davidb> MarcoZ: i'm going to email him
- # [21:19] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Good!
- # [21:24] * Quits: @MarcoZ (marco.zehe@moz-4A2980B5.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: night!)
- # [21:24] * Quits: mike5w3c (MikeS@moz-DAFE1A45.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: mike5w3c)
- # [21:26] <@askalski> ehsan, thanks. looks like a longer discussion was made.
- # [21:26] <ehsan> np
- # [21:26] <eeejay> davidb, could anyone put me on the mobile-dev list?
- # [21:27] <@davidb> eeejay: i'm not sure how these things are built
- # [21:27] <@askalski> davidb, ok, so it's a third bug I will not patch :). Should I come back to the first one and play with updating test cases or should I pick another one from bugs-ahoy?
- # [21:27] <@davidb> eeejay: ask dougt
- # [21:27] <eeejay> davidb, k
- # [21:28] <@davidb> askalski: sorry you keep getting blocked… let me think
- # [21:30] <@davidb> eeejay: loop back to me if that doesn't work (please)
- # [21:30] <eeejay> davidb, sure
- # [21:30] <@tbsaunde> askalski: the atk show / hide event thing *should* not end up getting blocked
- # [21:31] <@tbsaunde> or you can go back to the original aria thing
- # [21:31] <@tbsaunde> or whatever davidb thinks of :)
- # [21:31] * Joins: mike5w3c (MikeS@moz-DAFE1A45.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
- # [21:32] <@davidb> tbsaunde: bug #?
- # [21:32] <@davidb> askalski: it makes sense to finish the first bug IMO
- # [21:33] <@davidb> get it off your plate
- # [21:33] <@davidb> askalski: you aren't blocked on test case fixage right?
- # [21:33] <@askalski> true. especially that now I'll have less problems with tests
- # [21:33] <@davidb> right
- # [21:33] <@davidb> go for it :)
- # [21:33] <@askalski> on it.
- # [21:34] <@davidb> and after that then the atk event thing probably is probably right - but i need to see it
- # [21:35] <@askalski> davidb, ok, but I need someone to tell me again what it's about. I found it on my 2do list and actually wondered where did it get from
- # [21:35] <@davidb> askalski: the atk thing?
- # [21:36] <@askalski> davidb, yes. but I guess I'll re-read it again before bothering
- # [21:36] <@davidb> ok
- # [21:36] <@askalski> *after* dealing with first bug :)
- # [21:36] * @davidb nods
- # [21:36] <@tbsaunde> davidb: bug 716865
- # [21:36] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
- # [21:36] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=716865 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, atk's nsAccessibleWrap::FireShowHideEvent() makes bad assumptions about the event target
- # [21:36] <@davidb> ty
- # [21:38] <@davidb> tbsaunde: why is that atk specific?
- # [21:39] <@davidb> tbsaunde: also would the index stay correct or are children updated before we fire?
- # [21:40] <eeejay> tbsaunde, nice!
- # [21:40] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
- # [21:40] <@tbsaunde> davidb: because afaik windows doesn't care, and we don't do anything for that event on mac atm
- # [21:40] <@davidb> eeejay: ?
- # [21:40] <@davidb> tbsaunde: ok then.
- # [21:40] <@tbsaunde> davidb: when the event is actually fired it is nolonger in the tree iirc
- # [21:40] <eeejay> davidb, GNOME a11y detection is landing in aurora
- # [21:40] <@davidb> for hide you mean?
- # [21:40] <@davidb> eeejay: excellent
- # [21:41] <@davidb> tbsaunde: thanks for driving that
- # [21:41] <@davidb> I guess surkov helped too
- # [21:41] <@tbsaunde> yeah, surkov is bettter at convincing drivers than I am :)
- # [21:41] <@tbsaunde> davidb: yes for hide
- # [21:42] <@davidb> tbsaunde: module owner carries some weight :)
- # [21:42] <@tbsaunde> let me make sure show will work
- # [21:42] <@davidb> ok
- # [21:42] <@davidb> askalski: add a note for the atk bug that you'll want to use Accerciser
- # [21:42] <@davidb> to debug
- # [21:42] <@davidb> we like it so much, we bought the developer :)
- # [21:42] <eeejay> :)
- # [21:43] <@hub> did we?
- # [21:43] <@hub> ;-)
- # [21:43] <@davidb> heheh
- # [21:43] <@davidb> hi cbrodigan!
- # [21:43] <@davidb> nice to see you in here
- # [21:43] <@askalski> thanks
- # [21:43] <@davidb> np
- # [21:45] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I don't think you really need to do any debugging
- # [21:45] <@davidb> minimal, yeah
- # [21:46] <@tbsaunde> maybe
- # [21:47] * @davidb notes it is lunch time in Cali
- # [21:47] <@askalski> I guess that getting to know such apps it's a good thing
- # [21:47] <@hub> what does that mean when I get
- # [21:47] <@hub> ../../../dist/include/nsCOMPtr.h:566: error: ‘nsISupports’ is an ambiguous base of ‘nsDocAccessible’
- # [21:47] <@askalski> generally this month I haven't done much, but I learned a lot
- # [21:47] <@hub> ../../../dist/include/nsCOMPtr.h: In constructor ‘nsCOMPtr<T>::nsCOMPtr(T*) [with T = nsDocAccessible]’:
- # [21:47] <@hub> /Users/hub/source/mozilla/mozilla-central/accessible/src/base/nsAccessNode.cpp:106: instantiated from here
- # [21:48] <eeejay> hub, i bet you forgot a macro
- # [21:48] <eeejay> like the nsisupports implementation
- # [21:48] <eeejay> i got that error last week too
- # [21:48] <@hub> the only thing I did is change mDoc to be a nsCOMPth<nsDocAccessible> instead of nsDocAccessible*
- # [21:49] <eeejay> hub, yeah that expects a functional nsisupports because of xpc blah blah
- # [21:49] * eeejay is still a newb
- # [21:50] <eeejay> ok, lunch while i compile android ff from scratch
- # [21:50] <@tbsaunde> hub: that's because your a bad person putting a concrete object in a nsCOMPtr use a nsRefPtr
- # [21:50] <@hub> oh
- # [21:51] <@tbsaunde> why do you need to hold a ref though?
- # [21:51] <@hub> that would frakin' explain
- # [21:51] <@hub> tbsaunde: because surkov said so
- # [21:52] <@tbsaunde> hm, I don't remember that
- # [21:54] <@hub> on the review for bug 672504
- # [21:54] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=672504 nor, --, ---, hub, NEW, Don't keep pointer to weak presshell in accessible
- # [21:57] <@tbsaunde> hub: you mena that's pretty cool you think we don't need to keep strong reference to document but I'm sort of ready to bet we will deal here w
- # [21:57] <@tbsaunde> ith freaking crashes. Anyway we can go with it and then if we see lot of crashes then get back to strong ref.
- # [21:57] <@hub> tbsaunde: I don't disagree with using a strong ref.
- # [21:57] * @tbsaunde reads that to mean don't use refPtr for now, but we may end up with crashes that force us to make it a refPtr in the future
- # [21:58] <@hub> it was shortsighted in my part
- # [21:58] * @tbsaunde believes it should be weak ideally
- # [21:58] <@hub> so I'm putting a nsRefPtr<>
- # [21:58] <@tbsaunde> I'd prefer you didn't, but we can fix that later I gues
- # [22:01] <eeejay> hub, also, i think you are looking for nsRefPtr
- # [22:02] <@hub> yeah nsRefPtr<> is what I should use
- # [22:02] <@hub> and I am using it
- # [22:02] <@hub> I was getting confused between the varios smart pointers
- # [22:03] * Quits: @askalski (akuda@moz-6A36EC49.ip.abpl.pl) (Quit: Wychodzi)
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- # [22:03] * ChanServ sets mode: +o askalski
- # [22:07] <@askalski> is there a linux command to tell OS "I freed you some RAM, remove all stuff from swap space and be fast again"?
- # [22:07] * @davidb discovers http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/public/nsIXFormsUtilityService.h
- # [22:08] <@tbsaunde> davidb: yea, but its not really clear if that's implemented anywhere is it?
- # [22:08] <@davidb> i have no idea
- # [22:08] <@tbsaunde> askalski: I'm not really sure, what does swapoff do?
- # [22:09] <@tbsaunde> also, what have you done with all your ram?
- # [22:09] <@askalski> virtualbox + eclipse + linking firefox
- # [22:09] <@askalski> I need to shut down at least one to be fine
- # [22:09] <@askalski> and I use eclipse for editing, and virtualbox for testing
- # [22:09] <@askalski> it's a neat setup, really, but I always miss like a 1 gb :)
- # [22:10] <@tbsaunde> heh
- # [22:10] <@tbsaunde> sudo rm /usr/bin/eclipse will make that problem a lot better ;)
- # [22:11] <@askalski> tbsaunde, oh common, not "vim/emacs" stuff again. eclipse really helps me a lot finding stuff in the code, without it I'd ask even more trivial questions
- # [22:12] <@tbsaunde> heh, ctags / grep / ack-grep ftw
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- # [22:16] <@davidb> tbsaunde: ack-grep?
- # [22:17] * @davidb internets it
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- # [22:28] <@davidb> ok going away for a few (hours)
- # [22:28] <@davidb> have a good one
- # [22:28] * Quits: @davidb (davidb@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Quit: davidb)
- # [22:33] <@hub> askalski: drop eclipse and you already free up a lot of swap
- # [22:34] <@hub> askalski: without eclipse you woudln't have a problem with RAM and swap
- # [22:34] <@askalski> hub: I limited vbox mem limit
- # [22:34] <@askalski> limited a limit... I shoud take a break :D
- # [22:34] <@hub> what do you run in vbox?
- # [22:34] <@askalski> another linux for testing, becaues I have different font settings and mochitests fail
- # [22:35] <@hub> that actually should be worth fixing
- # [22:35] <@askalski> you know, once I track down the real trouble maker, I'm on it
- # [22:35] <@askalski> honestly
- # [22:35] <@askalski> right now I found a test that always fails
- # [22:36] <@askalski> and I need to find a reason why sometimes entire tail fails
- # [22:36] <@hub> is there a bugzilla for that?
- # [22:36] <@hub> because if there is no bugzilla there is no bug
- # [22:36] <@askalski> I think I mentioned that on IRC
- # [22:37] <@askalski> and someone told me that even test slaves behave non-deterministically
- # [22:37] <@askalski> I celebrated several days ago that in VBox I finally found a reliable testing env
- # [22:37] <@askalski> and now I see that it was just not enough tests
- # [22:37] <@askalski> I just fired a mochitest twice, and a diff is several pages long...
- # [22:37] <@askalski> (diff between outputs)
- # [22:39] * @tbsaunde has never thought of diffing mochitest logs
- # [22:39] <@askalski> 8297 INFO Passed: 3256
- # [22:39] <@askalski> 8298 INFO Failed: 150923
- # [22:39] <@askalski> 8299 INFO Todo: 10
- # [22:39] <@askalski> 8300 INFO SimpleTest FINISHED
- # [22:39] <@askalski> that's one option
- # [22:40] <@askalski> 22757 INFO TEST-START | Shutdown
- # [22:40] <@askalski> 22758 INFO Passed: 21002
- # [22:40] <@askalski> 22759 INFO Failed: 5
- # [22:40] <@askalski> 22760 INFO Todo: 1167
- # [22:40] <@askalski> 22761 INFO SimpleTest FINISHED
- # [22:40] <@askalski> and that's the other (5 errors introduced by the patch I produce, so only 15k more to go)
- # [22:40] <@askalski> that's weird, how is it possible that TODO numbers differs
- # [22:41] <@tbsaunde> askalski: we don't have nearly that many tests, are you running mochitest-plain or something?
- # [22:41] <@askalski> time make mochitest-a11y
- # [22:42] <@askalski> tbsaunde, it's double weird. numbers, even sums don't match
- # [22:43] <@tbsaunde> askalski: that is really odd
- # [22:43] <@askalski> and these are different results of the same command! I copy out the output files to diff them.
- # [22:43] <@askalski> tbsaunde, any suggestions?
- # [22:43] <@tbsaunde> nto off hand, that's just oo strang
- # [22:43] * @tbsaunde has to run
- # [22:44] * tbsaunde is now known as tbsaunde|afk
- # [22:44] <@askalski> right , I will be finishing for today
- # [22:44] <@askalski> thanks for your help
- # [22:44] <@askalski> bye everyone!
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- # [23:16] * tbsaunde|afk is now known as tbsaunde
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- # Session Close: Fri Jan 27 00:00:03 2012
The end :)