/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2012-01-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jan 26 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
  3. # [00:03] <satdav> trying to find David Bolter does anyone in here know his nick
  4. # [00:05] <@hub> davidb
  5. # [00:05] <@hub> but he left earlier
  6. # [00:05] <satdav> cool
  7. # [00:05] <@hub> like at 14:14 pacific time
  8. # [00:05] <satdav> cool
  9. # [00:05] <satdav> is he in the mozilla office still
  10. # [00:05] <@hub> no idea
  11. # [00:05] <@hub> he is in Toronto
  12. # [00:05] <@hub> I'm in Vancouver
  13. # [00:06] <eeejay> and I am in Seattle!
  14. # [00:06] <satdav> whos based in toronto
  15. # [00:06] <satdav> who would be about
  16. # [00:06] <satdav> is christine based in toronto
  17. # [00:09] <@hub> it is like 6PM in Toronto
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  20. # [00:11] <satdav> cool
  21. # [00:11] <satdav> I see hes about
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  23. # [00:24] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org cancelled review?(surkov.alexander@gm ail.com) for attachment 590277 on bug 698823.
  24. # [00:24] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 591630 on bug 698823.
  25. # [00:24] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=698823 nor, --, mozilla10, eitan, NEW, Introduce virtual cursor/soft focus functionality to a11y API
  26. # [00:26] * @davidb chats
  27. # [00:28] <@hub> aboot we say here ;-)
  28. # [00:28] <@hub> eh
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  32. # [00:38] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 591634 on bug 698823.
  33. # [00:38] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=698823 nor, --, mozilla10, eitan, NEW, Introduce virtual cursor/soft focus functionality to a11y API
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  38. # [00:49] <satdav> hey guys
  39. # [00:52] <eeejay> hey satdav
  40. # [00:52] <satdav> hey eeejay
  41. # [00:52] <satdav> can we use this channel to take about the accessibility of the mozilla website
  42. # [00:52] <satdav> also
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  44. # [01:13] <@firebot> hub@mozilla.com cancelled review?(surkov.alexander@gm ail.com) for attachment 590956 on bug 672504.
  45. # [01:13] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=672504 nor, --, ---, hub, NEW, Don't keep pointer to weak presshell in accessible
  46. # [01:13] <@firebot> hub@mozilla.com requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 591646 on bug 672504.
  47. # [01:18] <eeejay> satdav, yes please.
  48. # [01:18] <eeejay> satdav, i had issues a while back about mozilla site accessibility and never found the right folks
  49. # [01:18] <satdav> eeejay, what issue
  50. # [01:18] <satdav> as cbrodigan would be able to help you
  51. # [01:19] <eeejay> satdav, how do i get the mobile site on a desktop browser?
  52. # [01:20] <satdav> I dont think we have a mobile site
  53. # [01:20] <eeejay> damn, i don't see the issue now
  54. # [01:20] <eeejay> http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/m/
  55. # [01:21] <eeejay> satdav, the issue i saw had to do with negative offsets of the top menu bar
  56. # [01:21] <satdav> thats not the mobile site
  57. # [01:21] <satdav> thats for fenic
  58. # [01:21] <satdav> the mobile browser
  59. # [01:21] <eeejay> satdav, it keeps them out of site, which is good for visual users, but screen readers will still read those elements
  60. # [01:22] <eeejay> satdav, it is the mobile-optimized site, no?
  61. # [01:22] <satdav> I am not sure
  62. # [01:24] <eeejay> satdav, anyway, welcome to the channel. i'll bother you or cbrodigan if i see issues again :)
  63. # [01:24] <satdav> eeejay, davidb is also part of the team
  64. # [01:24] <eeejay> cool, i know davidb
  65. # [01:24] <satdav> hub, you about
  66. # [01:25] <satdav> cool
  67. # [01:25] <@hub> brb
  68. # [01:25] <satdav> cool
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  72. # [01:31] <satdav> hey guys is anyone having issues editing the wiki
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  76. # [01:48] <satdav> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Websites/Accessibility
  77. # [01:48] <satdav> hey guys thats probly the best page for accessability
  78. # [01:49] <satdav> hub or a other admin can you add that link on the subject
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  109. # [06:42] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 590964 on bug 712927.
  110. # [06:42] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=712927 nor, --, ---, hub, NEW, [Mac] VoiceOver often repeats the document title as if it were a groupbox/fieldset heading/legend
  111. # [06:44] <@tbsaunde> man, the you requested review when you switch reviers thing is kind of anoying
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  115. # [07:12] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com cancelled review?(surkov.alexander@gm ail.com) for attachment 590964 on bug 712927.
  116. # [07:12] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=712927 nor, --, ---, hub, NEW, [Mac] VoiceOver often repeats the document title as if it were a groupbox/fieldset heading/legend
  117. # [07:12] <Mark_Capella> Hey Surkov
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  119. # [07:13] <@surkov> hey, Mark_Capella
  120. # [07:13] <Mark_Capella> I see you cc:ed on bug 589784 ... I started a discussion with DavidBolter about developing it ...
  121. # [07:13] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=589784 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Remove role="label" aria processing.
  122. # [07:15] <@surkov> sound good
  123. # [07:16] <Mark_Capella> I coed and tested a fix ... new to accessibility .... sent David some results ... is he usually responsive? Seems to have dropped out of sight
  124. # [07:16] <Mark_Capella> coded
  125. # [07:16] <@surkov> if you have a patch then upload it to the bug
  126. # [07:16] <@surkov> and ask for review
  127. # [07:17] <@surkov> you can ask David or somebody else in case if David is busy
  128. # [07:17] <Mark_Capella> Do I need to be assigned to it first
  129. # [07:17] <@surkov> if you have questions then you can ask them in bug too :)
  130. # [07:17] <@surkov> Mark_Capella: if you work on it then yes
  131. # [07:17] <@surkov> should I assign it to you?
  132. # [07:17] <Mark_Capella> Please :-)
  133. # [07:17] <@surkov> and usually David is responsive :)
  134. # [07:18] <@surkov> email?
  135. # [07:18] <Mark_Capella> markcapella@twcny.rr.com
  136. # [07:18] <@surkov> done
  137. # [07:18] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 589784 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
  138. # [07:19] <Mark_Capella> Thank you! Any comments re: this bug?
  139. # [07:19] <@surkov> Mark_Capella: yw, I didn't get about re: this bug
  140. # [07:20] <Mark_Capella> was wondering if you had any thoughts or guidance in general to watch for as I proceed
  141. # [07:23] <@surkov> Mark_Capella: I'm still not sure if I got you right :) usually you should do all collaboration through bugzilla, so if you have a question then ask in the bug, if you have a patch then upload it and ask for review
  142. # [07:23] <Mark_Capella> ok
  143. # [07:23] <@surkov> this is sometimes is faster because others can answer you
  144. # [07:24] <@surkov> so if mentor person goes to vacation or something else then you don't wait for feedback
  145. # [07:26] <@surkov> if you don't get an answer in bugzilla in reasonable time then you ask mentor what's wrong and if you don't get an answer from mentor then you do something else like you did, coming here and asking
  146. # [07:29] <Mark_Capella> Ok, thanks :-p
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  149. # [08:23] <@tbsaunde> surkov: can you watch aurora if I push bug 693343 in a few minutes?
  150. # [08:23] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=693343 maj, --, mozilla12, trev.saunders, RESO FIXED, accessibility always disabled in GNOME 3 unless GNOME_ACCESSIBILITY is set
  151. # [08:23] <@surkov> tbsaunde: sure
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  154. # [08:25] <@tbsaunde> surkov: thx
  155. # [08:26] <@tbsaunde> let me just check the backport works
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  158. # [08:32] <@MarcoZ> Hi surkov, tbsaunde!
  159. # [08:32] <@surkov> hey, MarcoZ
  160. # [08:33] <@tbsaunde> hey MarcoZ
  161. # [08:35] <@tbsaunde> surkov: pushing now
  162. # [08:35] <@surkov> ok
  163. # [08:35] * @tbsaunde realizes he just tested the wrong tree and tests the right one
  164. # [08:36] <@tbsaunde> well, I got lucky no problem
  165. # [08:38] <@MarcoZ> tbsaunde: :D
  166. # [08:43] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com denied review for attachment 591646 on bug 672504.
  167. # [08:43] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=672504 nor, --, ---, hub, NEW, Don't keep pointer to weak presshell in accessible
  168. # [08:47] <@tbsaunde> surkov: so, I'm curious when does a document have > 1 presShell?
  169. # [08:48] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 591712 on bug 718990.
  170. # [08:48] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=718990 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Atk-based plugins to slot into our a11y tree stucks orca in some flash web pages.
  171. # [08:53] <@surkov> tbsaunde: normal mode and print preview mode
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  174. # [08:56] <@tbsaunde> surkov: oic
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  176. # [09:02] * @tbsaunde wonders if the compiler optimizes x & y == y to !(x ^ y)
  177. # [09:02] <@tbsaunde> if the second actually is faster
  178. # [09:06] <@tbsaunde> surkov: are you going to review my trivial patch soon?
  179. # [09:06] <@surkov> ok
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  181. # [09:22] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com granted review for attachment 591712 on bug 718990.
  182. # [09:22] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=718990 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Atk-based plugins to slot into our a11y tree stucks orca in some flash web pages.
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  187. # [09:57] <@tbsaunde> surkov: oh, sorry didn't mean to make the patch that big, it should have been only the nsAccessibilityService.cpp part
  188. # [09:58] <@tbsaunde> I haven't proved with a debugger that's what's happening yet, but eperimentally if I build with that patch I think things are nolonger broken
  189. # [09:58] <@surkov> interesting
  190. # [09:59] <@tbsaunde> there's weird casting and stuff in the plugin code to get the string, so I'm not really sure but I think it might usually return "" when the plugin doesn't have an id
  191. # [09:59] <@tbsaunde> I should look more, but when I can think, so not now :)
  192. # [10:09] <@surkov> tbsaunde: can you think of automated testing?
  193. # [10:11] <@tbsaunde> surkov: not without testing of the platform stuff :(
  194. # [10:11] <@surkov> ok
  195. # [10:14] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Are you going to land the browser testing patch you provided a few days ago soon?
  196. # [10:14] * @MarcoZ is forgetting the bug number.
  197. # [10:14] <@surkov> MarcoZ: you need it for something?
  198. # [10:14] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Bug 719754.
  199. # [10:14] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=719754 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Rewrite a11y tests that put <tabbrowser> in random XUL documents and expect it to work
  200. # [10:14] <@MarcoZ> surkov: No, just wondering.
  201. # [10:15] <@MarcoZ> surkov: And I'd like to get those tests back. ;)
  202. # [10:15] <@surkov> ok, I'll land it for you asap :)
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  209. # [12:07] <@askalski> morning everyone
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  227. # [14:44] <@askalski> hi everyone!
  228. # [14:48] <@MarcoZ> Hi askalski!
  229. # [14:48] <@MarcoZ> Hi davidb!
  230. # [14:48] * @MarcoZ needs to run some errants, be back in 30.
  231. # [14:48] <@davidb> hi
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  236. # [15:25] <@askalski> hi tbsaunde, got a minute?
  237. # [15:33] * Joins: davidb (davidb@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
  238. # [15:33] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo davidb davidb
  239. # [15:40] * shorlander-away is now known as shorlander
  240. # [15:41] <@MarcoZ> Back.
  241. # [15:41] <@MarcoZ> Hi aaronlev!
  242. # [15:50] * @davidb adds WIP patch to canvas a11y bug
  243. # [15:50] * @davidb preps for a series of meetings
  244. # [15:53] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Nice! BTW is this the whole WIP, or are there files missing?
  245. # [15:53] <@davidb> that's all bubba
  246. # [15:58] <@davidb> MarcoZ: is the autocomplete stuff that landed in nightly recently working ok?
  247. # [15:59] <@davidb> hmm was that December?
  248. # [15:59] <@tbsaunde> askalski: about exactly one :/
  249. # [16:02] <@tbsaunde> askalski: what's up?
  250. # [16:03] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Yes it's working OK. NVDA nicely speaks if the AutoComplete finds something and puts it in the awesome bar. Unless I type too fast.
  251. # [16:04] * @MarcoZ is going to test the "new tab page" feature today.
  252. # [16:04] <@askalski> tbsaunde, just wanted to talk a moment about telemetry bug
  253. # [16:04] <@askalski> but I have 1:1 in a moment
  254. # [16:04] <@askalski> so I guess it's no the best moment
  255. # [16:04] <@tbsaunde> askalski: ack, be back about 1200 my time (1.5 rs)
  256. # [16:04] <@askalski> tbsaunde, ok
  257. # [16:11] * Joins: satdav (satdav@moz-1ECB932B.cable.virginmedia.com)
  258. # [16:11] <satdav> hi guys how are you all today
  259. # [16:13] <@MarcoZ> Hi satdav! Fine, thanks, and you?
  260. # [16:14] <satdav> I am also good MarcoZ
  261. # [16:14] <satdav> I am working on the wiki the now
  262. # [16:14] <satdav> MarcoZ, do you know the call details for the meeting today
  263. # [16:14] <satdav> as I am going to listen vie skype
  264. # [16:14] <@MarcoZ> satdav: Very cool! I read earlier today that you're volunteering to help improve the wiki. Very very nice!
  265. # [16:15] <satdav> I added a new page for accessibility
  266. # [16:15] <@MarcoZ> satdav: The accessibility meetings are usually on Wednesdays, so there is no team meeting today.
  267. # [16:15] <satdav> chelsea told me it was a thursday
  268. # [16:16] <satdav> sorry christine
  269. # [16:16] <satdav> it was
  270. # [16:18] <satdav> MarcoZ, whats your email and i will farward you it
  271. # [16:19] <satdav> got it
  272. # [16:19] <satdav> farwarded you the email she sent me
  273. # [16:21] <@MarcoZ> satdav: Oh that's a web project meeting, at least I usually do not participate in those.
  274. # [16:22] <satdav> cool
  275. # [16:22] <satdav> we are setting up a new list
  276. # [16:22] <@MarcoZ> satdav: Yes I read about that.
  277. # [16:23] <satdav> accessibility
  278. # [16:23] <satdav> that would be better I would say
  279. # [16:23] <satdav> MarcoZ, do you know if he filled out a new bug for it to be setup
  280. # [16:23] <@MarcoZ> satdav: So the phone details are usually the normal Mozilla dial-in numbers, and the extension is given in the conference room details. The conference room's extension is 5707 if I read that forwarded message correctly.
  281. # [16:24] <satdav> cool
  282. # [16:24] <@MarcoZ> Nope, there was no new bug for it yet, at least I haven't seen one. But davidb will be able to tell you.
  283. # [16:24] <satdav> so just the normal once I use for sumo and that
  284. # [16:25] <@MarcoZ> Yes right.
  285. # [16:25] <@MarcoZ> (that was re the dial-in)
  286. # [16:26] <@davidb> back
  287. # [16:26] <@davidb> should i read scroll back or do you guys have a summary? :)
  288. # [16:27] <@davidb> ok read it
  289. # [16:27] <@davidb> ah ok filing
  290. # [16:28] <satdav> thats fine davidb
  291. # [16:29] <@davidb> satdav: what is your bugmail address?
  292. # [16:29] <satdav> use dw38438@gmail.com
  293. # [16:29] <@davidb> ok
  294. # [16:30] <satdav> let me to know when the bug has been setup
  295. # [16:30] <satdav> and I will check it daily
  296. # [16:31] <@davidb> ok
  297. # [16:31] <@davidb> shortly
  298. # [16:31] <satdav> thats fine
  299. # [16:32] <satdav> I am kicking up at the sumo team the now
  300. # [16:34] <@davidb> satdav: bug 721388
  301. # [16:34] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=721388 nor, --, ---, gerv, NEW, Please create accessibility@lists.mozilla.org
  302. # [16:34] <satdav> thanks will check it
  303. # [16:36] <satdav> davidb, I wonder if you can comment on bug 720887
  304. # [16:36] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=720887 nor, --, ---, nobody, RESO WONTFIX, A Feature to make the text bigger
  305. # [16:36] <satdav> or any one else
  306. # [16:36] <satdav> who thinks that would be a good idea
  307. # [16:36] * Quits: Mark_Capella (chatzilla@moz-DD0C7E4F.twcny.res.rr.com) (Connection reset by peer)
  308. # [16:36] <@davidb> hmmm mobile might have a bug for this
  309. # [16:37] * @davidb looks
  310. # [16:37] <satdav> cool
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  315. # [16:40] <satdav> speaking to the sumo dev team
  316. # [16:40] * Joins: nhirata (nhirata.bu@moz-2A9C9106.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  317. # [16:41] <@davidb> satdav: so Firefox currently allows two ways to increase fonts. You can zoom, or you can go into preferences, content, fonts and colours, advanced and override page settings.
  318. # [16:41] <satdav> yes
  319. # [16:41] <@davidb> I think you probably want a 3rd way right?
  320. # [16:41] <satdav> but some people dont know how to do that
  321. # [16:41] <@davidb> ah
  322. # [16:41] <satdav> yes
  323. # [16:41] * Joins: Mark_Capella (chatzilla@moz-DD0C7E4F.twcny.res.rr.com)
  324. # [16:42] <@davidb> So do you want to increase fonts (relatively), and only fonts?
  325. # [16:42] <@davidb> The page would re-layout to fit.
  326. # [16:42] <@davidb> zooming doesn't re-layout
  327. # [16:42] <satdav> yes
  328. # [16:42] <satdav> do you know what i mean
  329. # [16:42] <@davidb> ok
  330. # [16:42] <satdav> I added a example of what i mean
  331. # [16:42] <@davidb> I think I heard people want that on mobile.
  332. # [16:42] <@davidb> but i can't find the bug ATM
  333. # [16:43] <satdav> http://www.gdaonline.co.uk/
  334. # [16:43] <satdav> go their
  335. # [16:43] <satdav> and at the top you will see what i mean
  336. # [16:43] <satdav> by pressing the a
  337. # [16:43] <@davidb> yeah i know the idiom
  338. # [16:44] <satdav> I am kicking up at them at sumo
  339. # [16:44] <@davidb> I'm not familiar with that expression :)
  340. # [16:44] <@davidb> sounds painful
  341. # [16:44] <satdav> it means i am mad at the developers at sumo
  342. # [16:45] <@davidb> ah
  343. # [16:45] <@davidb> well, it is good to assume they are well intended.
  344. # [16:47] <satdav> they dont want the feature
  345. # [16:47] * Quits: Mark_Capella (chatzilla@moz-DD0C7E4F.twcny.res.rr.com) (Connection reset by peer)
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  347. # [16:47] <@davidb> satdav: I think this is sort of what you want to be in product https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/mobile/addon/bigger-text/
  348. # [16:48] <satdav> yes
  349. # [16:48] <satdav> davidb, do you know Matt Brubeck irc nick
  350. # [16:49] <satdav> as he is a mozilla staff menber
  351. # [16:49] <@davidb> a little
  352. # [16:50] <@askalski> MarcoZ, hi, got a moment?
  353. # [16:52] * Quits: Mark_Capella (chatzilla@moz-DD0C7E4F.twcny.res.rr.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 12.0a1/20120125104453])
  354. # [16:54] <@MarcoZ> askalski: Sure!
  355. # [16:55] * Quits: peteb-away (ptbrunet@moz-E9B02845.austin.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout)
  356. # [16:55] <@askalski> MarcoZ, I am looking on a patch
  357. # [16:55] <@askalski> * bug 17506
  358. # [16:55] <@MarcoZ> askalski: Yes?
  359. # [16:55] <@askalski> 717506
  360. # [16:55] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17506 nor, P3, M12, dbragg, VERI FIXED, Need to reimplement the Confirmation dialog
  361. # [16:56] <@askalski> right, I run a build with about:telemetry addon
  362. # [16:56] <@askalski> and I see no a11y related statistichs
  363. # [16:56] <@askalski> *statistics
  364. # [16:57] <@askalski> is that normal?
  365. # [16:57] <@askalski> or I build something wrong
  366. # [16:57] <@davidb> askalski: the add-on shows you telemetry data for the current session
  367. # [16:58] <@MarcoZ> askalski: Phew, no, it should have at least some telemetry data regarding a11y. Problem is this stuff is very visual, so it was mostly davidb and surkov dealing with it. Don't know if there needs to be a special switch flipped to get accessibility telemetry displayed.
  368. # [16:58] <@davidb> askalski: so you want to make sure you instantiate a11y (use a screen reader or something)
  369. # [16:58] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Thanks!
  370. # [16:58] <@davidb> np
  371. # [16:58] <@askalski> ok, so if I get ORCA installed in this distro, it will start by itself, or some other stuff should be done?
  372. # [16:59] <@askalski> orca or any other screen reader
  373. # [16:59] <@davidb> satdav: do you know Ken Saunders?
  374. # [16:59] <satdav> nope were is he based
  375. # [16:59] <@davidb> satdav: http://www.accessfirefox.org/
  376. # [17:00] <@davidb> satdav: He has been with the project a long time as a volunteer.
  377. # [17:00] * Joins: hub (hub@83874EA1.EB7C1AF9.6F478678.IP)
  378. # [17:00] * ChanServ sets mode: +o hub
  379. # [17:00] <@davidb> satdav: I think you should coordinate with him on font size issues/requests.
  380. # [17:00] <satdav> cool
  381. # [17:00] <satdav> what is his irc name
  382. # [17:00] <@davidb> I've never seen him on IRC
  383. # [17:01] <@davidb> unfortunately
  384. # [17:01] <satdav> cool
  385. # [17:02] <@davidb> satdav: http://www.accessfirefox.org/AFx_About_Ken_Saunders.php
  386. # [17:04] <satdav> will give him a email
  387. # [17:04] <@davidb> great
  388. # [17:09] <@askalski> davidb, I got orca installed, how to enable a11y in telemetry?
  389. # [17:10] * davidb is now known as davidb|1on1
  390. # [17:10] * Joins: Mark_Capella (chatzilla@moz-DD0C7E4F.twcny.res.rr.com)
  391. # [17:15] <@askalski> MarcoZ, I launched orca and a11y telemetry showed up
  392. # [17:16] <satdav> davidb|1on1, seen christine is not about yet, what time zone is she on
  393. # [17:17] * Joins: ehsan (ehsan@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
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  395. # [17:22] <@askalski> tbsaunde, ping me once you come back plz
  396. # [17:27] <@davidb|1on1> askalski: great
  397. # [17:27] * davidb|1on1 is now known as davidb
  398. # [17:27] * Joins: peteb-away (ptbrunet@moz-E9B02845.austin.res.rr.com)
  399. # [17:27] <@davidb> satdav: Mountain View
  400. # [17:27] <@davidb> Pacific
  401. # [17:28] <satdav> cool
  402. # [17:28] <@askalski> davidb, can you tell me how to turn any xforms on, so I can test?
  403. # [17:28] <satdav> christine has been in here now
  404. # [17:28] <@davidb> askalski: there is an extension required
  405. # [17:28] <@askalski> I have several guesses where to attach my code, I just need to be able to trigger the event
  406. # [17:28] <@askalski> what extension?
  407. # [17:29] <@davidb> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/mozilla-xforms/
  408. # [17:29] <@davidb> not sure you'll be able to use it with nightly :/
  409. # [17:29] <@davidb> you can force compatibility via this extension https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/nightly-tester-tools/?src=search
  410. # [17:29] <@davidb> (it might work, might not)
  411. # [17:30] <@davidb> and yes it is a bit crazy that we have core engine a11y implementation for an extension only feature
  412. # [17:30] <@davidb> which is why we are interested in how many people use it
  413. # [17:31] <@askalski> davidb, ok
  414. # [17:33] <@MarcoZ> Yeah I fell into that xforms trap once, too. :)
  415. # [17:33] <@MarcoZ> 4 years ago when I wanted to test whether it really worked. Long time ago.
  416. # [17:34] <@davidb> i keep forgetting.
  417. # [17:34] * Quits: nhirata (nhirata.bu@moz-2A9C9106.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: nhirata)
  418. # [17:34] <@MarcoZ> davidb: So, can you see any first data from the screen reader telemetry?
  419. # [17:35] * @davidb looks
  420. # [17:35] <@askalski> MarcoZ, telemetry a11y started by itself once I loaded orca. the funny thing is orca is unloaded right now (or at least I can't ps | grep it's deamon) and the data still shows up
  421. # [17:36] <@davidb> MarcoZ: yes!
  422. # [17:36] <@MarcoZ> askalski: Once enabled, it doesn't turn off unless you restart Firefox.
  423. # [17:36] <@MarcoZ> davidb: And what do you see?
  424. # [17:37] <@askalski> MarcoZ, but I have restarted firefox several times
  425. # [17:37] <@davidb> I think I see only NVDA and Jaws
  426. # [17:37] <@MarcoZ> askalski: Hhmmmm, I keep forgetting when a11y on Linux gets uninstanciated again. There were so many changes in GNOME when it transitioned from CORBA to D-Bus and within GNOME3 with its different ways to turn or pref it on that I lost track. Best ask tbsaunde when he comes back.
  427. # [17:38] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Interesting!
  428. # [17:38] <@davidb> hum
  429. # [17:38] <@MarcoZ> NVDA must be me at least. I don't think i used JAWS this week.
  430. # [17:39] <@askalski> MarcoZ, davidb , ok, so in general, if you need someone to take track of changes in ubuntu/unity and linux in general, I am volunteering once I get some understanding of accessibility component
  431. # [17:39] <@davidb> sounds good
  432. # [17:40] <@davidb> MarcoZ: can you add askalski's suggestion to next weeks agenda?
  433. # [17:40] <@davidb> i need to find Taras
  434. # [17:41] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Will do!
  435. # [17:42] <@davidb> askalski: another thing coming down the pipe is SVG accessibility but I'm not even at the point to discuss it :)
  436. # [17:43] <@askalski> pipe in SVG?
  437. # [17:43] <@askalski> right
  438. # [17:43] <@askalski> SVG accessibility
  439. # [17:43] <@askalski> ok, I haven't got the idiom on-the-fly
  440. # [17:47] <@davidb> :)
  441. # [17:47] <@askalski> ok, I got the extension installed (marked as incompatible). does it turn on automatically? how to check if it's working?
  442. # [17:49] <@davidb> askalski: gee
  443. # [17:49] <@davidb> i guess you need to google for xforms examples
  444. # [17:50] * @davidb has never used them
  445. # [17:51] <@askalski> davidb, ok, I google :)
  446. # [17:52] <@davidb> MarcoZ: I found the data from when I was testing. I can see other readers, but incredibly small usage rate :)
  447. # [17:53] <@davidb> ah there is cobra even
  448. # [17:53] <@davidb> heh
  449. # [17:54] <@davidb> MarcoZ: I wonder if we should ask people to turn performance data reporting on
  450. # [17:56] <@hub> askalski: GNOME_ACCESSIBILITY=1 firefox
  451. # [17:56] <@hub> this shoudl start firefox with accessibility on on Linux
  452. # [17:57] <@askalski> hub, to which question of mine you post that answer? will it enable xforms?
  453. # [17:57] * @davidb slaps forehead
  454. # [17:57] <@davidb> hub: right
  455. # [17:57] <@davidb> askalski: to instantiate a11y
  456. # [17:58] <@hub> askalski: to enable a11y in Firefox
  457. # [17:58] <@davidb> you don't need orca then
  458. # [17:59] <@askalski> davidb, orca is in standard ubuntu installment, that's nice. I'll add the line anyway. but to be sincere now it opens all the time, I guess that some instance of orca works in a background and firefox detects it
  459. # [17:59] <@askalski> the a11y instantiates all the time
  460. # [17:59] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  461. # [17:59] <@askalski> so I can't reproduce situation in which it hasn't :D
  462. # [17:59] <@askalski> *hadn't
  463. # [18:00] <@davidb> probably has a setting
  464. # [18:03] <@askalski> davidb, ok, I'll try to find that out later, now I am on xforms. Actually it's confusing, there's a linux library named the same, something with X-window system
  465. # [18:03] <@davidb> oh
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  467. # [18:11] <@hub> yep
  468. # [18:11] <@hub> xforms is an ugly toolkit library
  469. # [18:14] <@askalski> hub, yep, the screenshots looks like middleages
  470. # [18:15] <@hub> it was modern. they were already using C++ instead of reinventing some object model in C like in *cough* Gtk
  471. # [18:16] <@askalski> hub, is Gtk really so bad? I have no much experience, but most people from my faculty use it
  472. # [18:16] <@askalski> and they prefer it over qt, xwidgets and all other stuff
  473. # [18:16] <@askalski> mostly because gtk#
  474. # [18:16] <@hub> gtk in C is a bucket on self inflicted pain
  475. # [18:17] <@MarcoZ> ROFLMAO!
  476. # [18:17] <@hub> gtkmm (C++) makes it palatable
  477. # [18:17] <@MarcoZ> davidb: I can put out a blog post asking nightly users to turn Telemetry on.
  478. # [18:17] <@askalski> right, gtkmm and gtk# what the use
  479. # [18:18] <@davidb> gobject forever!
  480. # [18:18] <@askalski> :D
  481. # [18:18] <@davidb> X forever!
  482. # [18:19] * @davidb vomits a little
  483. # [18:19] <@MarcoZ> LOL
  484. # [18:19] <@hub> askalski: gtk#, no thanks. if I wanted to use a VM, I'd stick to Javascript
  485. # [18:19] <@hub> not some pseudo Java owned by MSFT
  486. # [18:20] <@hub> davidb: with Gtk you barely see X
  487. # [18:20] <@askalski> hub, right, but the guy who writes a scene-editor to habanero is visual studio addicted
  488. # [18:20] <@hub> askalski: Vistual Studio support C and C++ too
  489. # [18:20] <@askalski> btw, isn't there some kind of advantage of using C over C++? year ago I wrote a distributed floyd-warshall algorithm and C version was twice as fast. gcc couldn't for example properly expand inline indexing operators etc
  490. # [18:22] <@askalski> yeah, but if you're building a window-rich application (and visual scene editor is all about windows and controls) we don't know the easier way than C#. I mean, the engine in background is in C++, but all the interface... just to much to take care of
  491. # [18:23] <@askalski> it's like writing an visual instant messenger - in C#/java you write one within 4 hours. In c++ you spend 6-8 on just setting the windows and callbacks
  492. # [18:23] <@davidb> MarcoZ: telemetry seems to suggest that NVDA and Jaws are both being run at the same time. Is that likely?
  493. # [18:25] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Unlikely. They would both be speaking at the same time and interfere with each other in keyboard hooking and other parts.
  494. # [18:25] <@hub> askalski: there is nothing C# can do than C++ can't, even more if you use Gtk#
  495. # [18:26] <@davidb> MarcoZ: is there a way to shut one up?
  496. # [18:26] <@hub> as for using C instead of C++, it is like the old debate of assembly vs C
  497. # [18:26] <@askalski> hub, yes, I know. it's just about saving time. we write a game engine + scene editor with a power of three students. we need to do savings
  498. # [18:26] <@davidb> MarcoZ: is there a way both dlls would be commonly injected?
  499. # [18:26] <@hub> askalski: not even saving time
  500. # [18:26] <@MarcoZ> davidb: In theory, yes, you could put one to sleep while using the other, but there would still be interference. I would never do that beause I'd be afraid of false results.
  501. # [18:27] * @tbsaunde returns
  502. # [18:27] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Only if they are run together.
  503. # [18:27] * @davidb wonders if c# gc is decent
  504. # [18:27] <@davidb> MarcoZ: ok
  505. # [18:27] <@tbsaunde> I tend to think if your writing UI code you've already lost whatever language it is
  506. # [18:27] <@MarcoZ> davidb: There may be one case where I can think of this case: One screen reader crashes, but something is left in the Firefox process, and the user starts the other to gain control over his machine back.
  507. # [18:27] <@MarcoZ> davidb: But usually, if a screen reader DLL that is injected into our process crashes, it takes us down with it.
  508. # [18:27] <@davidb> tbsaunde: haha
  509. # [18:28] * @davidb nods
  510. # [18:28] <@tbsaunde> I've written one tiny bad gui in python using gtk it was sort of ok
  511. # [18:29] <@tbsaunde> but gobject is like "hey, I have a great idea lets implement C++ ourselves and do our best to make it tolerable with macros"
  512. # [18:29] <@askalski> hi tbsaunde :)
  513. # [18:29] <@tbsaunde> or "cfront is great, but we can make it better by doing the C++ -> C transform ourselves
  514. # [18:29] <@tbsaunde> askalski: hi :)
  515. # [18:29] <@tbsaunde> how is it going?
  516. # [18:30] * @davidb steps out
  517. # [18:30] <@tbsaunde> askalski: me and Ginn Chen are usually the ones who deal with linux stuff, but there's stuff that needs to be worked on that I don't have time for :)
  518. # [18:31] <@tbsaunde> and Ginn usually only actively fixes stuff when it breaks solaris
  519. # [18:31] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
  520. # [18:31] <@tbsaunde> *slolaris
  521. # [18:32] <@askalski> tbsaunde, well, it'll probably take some time before I become useful, but if you trace any easy bugs, just assign them to me
  522. # [18:32] * Joins: cbrodigan (christineb@moz-C03D0C61.vlan426.asr1.sfo1.gblx.net)
  523. # [18:33] <@tbsaunde> askalski: there's bug 686909 which I have a sort of wip hack ptch for but that isn't really easy
  524. # [18:33] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=686909 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, The system suffix is for system generated events only
  525. # [18:33] <@tbsaunde> there's another one about show / hide events and bad assumptions the atk support makes about when they're fired
  526. # [18:34] <@tbsaunde> I don't remember the bug # off hand but its fairly recent and mentions asserts
  527. # [18:34] * Quits: @askalski (akuda@moz-6A36EC49.ip.abpl.pl) (Ping timeout)
  528. # [18:34] * eeejay loves gobject
  529. # [18:36] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: do you enjoy hurting your self too? ;-)
  530. # [18:37] <eeejay> Only with macros :)
  531. # [18:37] * Joins: askalski (akuda@moz-6A36EC49.ip.abpl.pl)
  532. # [18:37] * ChanServ sets mode: +o askalski
  533. # [18:37] <@tbsaunde> askalski: hey, just before you timed out I said
  534. # [18:38] <@hub> tbsaunde: GObject is why they also wrote their own inconsistent language. And they made it like cfront...
  535. # [18:38] <@tbsaunde> <@tbsaunde> askalski: there's bug 686909 which I have a sort of wip hack ptch for but that isn't really easy
  536. # [18:38] <@tbsaunde> <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=686909 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, The system suffix is for system generated events only
  537. # [18:38] <@tbsaunde> <@tbsaunde> there's another one about show / hide events and bad assumptions the atk support makes about when they're fired
  538. # [18:38] <@tbsaunde> <@tbsaunde> I don't remember the bug # off hand but its fairly recent and mentions asserts
  539. # [18:38] <@hub> tbsaunde: I volunteer to help in the Linux side too.
  540. # [18:39] <@askalski> tbsaunde, I'll ping you back about that once I finish with xforms-telemetry
  541. # [18:39] <@tbsaunde> hub: yeah, I've heard about that mess
  542. # [18:39] <@tbsaunde> askalski: sounds good
  543. # [18:39] <@hub> the only reason I use Gtk for my photo app is because if I was using Qt it would look alien in Gnome and alien in KDE (as I hate KDE UI in general)
  544. # [18:39] <@tbsaunde> hub: those are the issues I know of bugs for there's certainly others
  545. # [18:39] <@tbsaunde> there's an orca meta bug with a bunch of depenendancies that are open
  546. # [18:40] <@hub> tbsaunde: the thing is my plate is quite full right now :-/
  547. # [18:40] <@tbsaunde> most of them are non trivial iirc
  548. # [18:40] <@tbsaunde> hub: I know, its cool
  549. # [18:40] * @tbsaunde is mostly trying to let people know the state of the world :)
  550. # [18:41] <@tbsaunde> if you run firefox with orca running gobject wines every now and again about things not being valid atk objects, which is an issue I have never really looked into
  551. # [18:41] <@askalski> tbsaunde, ok, I think I am prepared to start writing a patch to telemetry and xforms, but the bug isn't quite clear - do you want just a binary flag "xforms used" or some statistics?
  552. # [18:41] <@tbsaunde> since my plate is really full to :/
  553. # [18:43] <@askalski> tbsaunde, ^
  554. # [18:44] <@tbsaunde> askalski: just a binary flag
  555. # [18:45] <@askalski> ok
  556. # [18:45] * Quits: mike5w3c (MikeS@moz-DAFE1A45.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: mike5w3c)
  557. # [18:45] <@tbsaunde> askalski: see the patch for bug 678799
  558. # [18:45] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678799 nor, --, mozilla8, trev.saunders, RESO FIXED, TELEMETRY FOR A11Y INITIALIZATION
  559. # [18:46] <satdav> davidb, ping
  560. # [18:46] <@askalski> tbsaunde, yes, I started with that, thanks
  561. # [18:48] <@tbsaunde> davidb: so, let me get the xforms situation strait, in teee there is a11y support, and some interface headers in tree, but no intree impl?
  562. # [18:51] * Joins: mike5w3c (MikeS@moz-DAFE1A45.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
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  568. # [19:33] <@tbsaunde> askalski: how goes?
  569. # [19:34] <@askalski> tbsaunde, recompiling, I made a hook in wrong place
  570. # [19:34] <@askalski> in several minutes I'll test again
  571. # [19:34] <@tbsaunde> askalski: sounds good :)
  572. # [19:34] <@askalski> I placed a trigger in nsXFormsAccessibleBase constructor
  573. # [19:34] <@askalski> but if that get's triggered every time I'll move it
  574. # [19:35] <@askalski> now my computer gonna die linking :D
  575. # [19:36] <@tbsaunde> I'd expect that'd be called each time someone creates an xforms object, not sure if we wnat that or not
  576. # [19:36] * shorlander is now known as shorlander-away
  577. # [19:37] <@askalski> tbsaunde, I tought that's what we want. I understood the bug as "provide a stat whether xforms are used or not"
  578. # [19:37] * Quits: ehsan (ehsan@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Ping timeout)
  579. # [19:37] <@askalski> tbsaunde, I can limit telemetry calls to one by using static flag within inline void function
  580. # [19:38] <@askalski> like static bool telemetry_called = false; if(!telemetry_called) call telemetry and set the flag to true
  581. # [19:41] <@tbsaunde> askalski: use per run of firefox isn't what we want
  582. # [19:42] <@tbsaunde> but I'm not sure if we care about how many xforms things there are if a doc uses them
  583. # [19:42] <@tbsaunde> it might be reasonable to put a bool in the document
  584. # [19:43] * shorlander-away is now known as shorlander
  585. # [19:44] <@tbsaunde> so, when an xforms object is created tell its doc it uses xforms, and if that doc hasn't used xforms yet notify telemetry
  586. # [19:45] <@askalski> tbsaunde, ok, I'll try to do that
  587. # [19:45] * Quits: sgimeno (santiago.g@A922400D.48362F18.BCC03455.IP) (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
  588. # [19:45] <@askalski> tbsaunde, is there any special place I need to put some info about a chart other than TelemetryHistograms.h ?
  589. # [19:46] <@askalski> because I haven't been able to display one I defined so far in any case
  590. # [19:46] <@askalski> I understand that TelemetryHistograms.h is an expando-file, right?
  591. # [19:47] <@tbsaunde> askalski: that should be the only place, and ye
  592. # [19:47] <@tbsaunde> *yes
  593. # [19:47] * Quits: @hub (hub@83874EA1.EB7C1AF9.6F478678.IP) (Input/output error)
  594. # [19:47] <@askalski> tbsaunde, that's weird, I never get any output. I guess I'll run it with debugger, and check if the trigger takes place
  595. # [19:48] <@tbsaunde> askalski: makes sense
  596. # [19:48] <@tbsaunde> are you rebuilding the relavent stuff?
  597. # [19:48] <@askalski> because right now I have two options: a) telemetry creates charts only to non-zero values and I just messed the trigger b) for some reason it ingores my chart at all, and I need to do something with that
  598. # [19:48] <@tbsaunde> I'd think you need to rebuild toolkit/
  599. # [19:48] <@askalski> tbsaunde, that might be the problem
  600. # [19:49] <@askalski> i'm doing make -f client.mk, and installed telemetry from official addon-site
  601. # [19:49] <@tbsaunde> rebuilding jsut accessible/ certainly isn't enough
  602. # [19:49] <@tbsaunde> then you should be fine
  603. # [19:49] <@askalski> ok, I'll run the debugger
  604. # [19:53] <@askalski> tbsaunde, where document is defined in a11y?
  605. # [19:53] <@askalski> or do I have to use some more global one
  606. # [19:53] <@tbsaunde> askalski: nsDocAccessible
  607. # [19:53] <@askalski> thx
  608. # [19:54] <@tbsaunde> np
  609. # [19:55] * Quits: geo (geo@moz-BBE3ABD.mv.mozilla.com) (Ping timeout)
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  611. # [19:57] <@davidb> satdav: pong
  612. # [19:57] <@davidb> tbsaunde: yes that's my understanding
  613. # [19:57] <satdav> davidb, can you update the subject
  614. # [19:58] <@davidb> satdav: of?
  615. # [19:58] <@davidb> (sorry lots on the go here)
  616. # [19:58] * Joins: ehsan (ehsan@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
  617. # [19:58] <satdav> in this channel
  618. # [19:58] <@davidb> satdav: yes I can.
  619. # [19:59] <@tbsaunde> davidb: B|
  620. # [19:59] <@davidb> tbsaunde: I don't know the history
  621. # [19:59] <@askalski> btw, Nevimer rocks
  622. # [19:59] <@askalski> *Nemiver
  623. # [19:59] <@askalski> the debugger stuff
  624. # [19:59] <@davidb> never heard of it
  625. # [20:00] <@davidb> satdav: do you have something in mind?
  626. # [20:01] <@tbsaunde> davidb:appers to be a gtk gui debugger
  627. # [20:01] * @tbsaunde should get the gdb python for mozilla stuff working
  628. # [20:02] <@tbsaunde> I should also figure out where ~/useful-moz-hacks.patch went to and make it more useful
  629. # [20:04] <@askalski> tbsaunde, there is a problem
  630. # [20:04] <@askalski> I ran ff through debugger
  631. # [20:05] <@askalski> with breakpoints on constructor of nsXFormsAccessibleBase and it looks like it's never called
  632. # [20:05] <satdav> adding a bit of info to the page the now
  633. # [20:05] <@askalski> zero count
  634. # [20:05] <@tbsaunde> askalski: is this on a page with xforms in it?
  635. # [20:06] <@tbsaunde> davidb: MarcoZ do we have any tests for xforms?
  636. # [20:06] <@davidb> satdav: what page?
  637. # [20:06] <@askalski> yes, I downloaded some piece of code and saved it as a local html file
  638. # [20:06] <@askalski> I can pastebin it, but it has <xforms:model> tag etc
  639. # [20:07] <@tbsaunde> askalski: ok
  640. # [20:07] <@tbsaunde> askalski: it sounds our xforms support might be busted, or maybe the addon needs updated
  641. # [20:07] <@askalski> tbsaunde, http://pastebin.com/MwXewSwW
  642. # [20:08] <@askalski> it's from some popular google result to "xforms example"
  643. # [20:09] * @davidb investigated rendered text
  644. # [20:09] <@askalski> btw, it might be outdated, as it does not display the "submit" button (or any other control, it's just text) but chromium displays it the same way as ff, so I didn't care
  645. # [20:09] <@askalski> davidb, how do you do these * <nick> <what you're doing> ?
  646. # [20:09] <@askalski> on IRC. is it automatic?
  647. # [20:09] <@davidb> askalski: /me foo
  648. # [20:09] * @davidb foo
  649. # [20:10] <@askalski> ok, thanks
  650. # [20:10] <@davidb> np
  651. # [20:10] * Joins: hub (hub@21B7B9F2.B87E9213.6E712CE2.IP)
  652. # [20:10] * ChanServ sets mode: +o hub
  653. # [20:10] * @askalski trying /me
  654. # [20:10] <@askalski> :D
  655. # [20:10] <@tbsaunde> askalski: could be chrome doesn't support xforms
  656. # [20:10] <@davidb> heh
  657. # [20:10] <@askalski> well it does display input things
  658. # [20:10] <@askalski> as well as ff, actually both displays the same page
  659. # [20:11] <@askalski> two inputs, no buttons or anything, some text
  660. # [20:11] <@davidb> MarcoZ: did you hear from Matt Campbell?
  661. # [20:12] <@askalski> tbsaunde, it looks like the inputs are standard "<input..." tag
  662. # [20:12] <@askalski> so I guess I'll look for another example
  663. # [20:12] <@tbsaunde> askalski: honestly I have no idea
  664. # [20:12] <@tbsaunde> I'd have to debug why its broken
  665. # [20:12] <@askalski> tbsaunde, oh, the example is from w3c webpage
  666. # [20:13] <@tbsaunde> and let me tell you how much I want to spend time debugging why xforms doesn't work
  667. # [20:13] <@askalski> :D
  668. # [20:13] <@tbsaunde> davidb: thoughts?
  669. # [20:14] <@tbsaunde> should we ignore the problem? or assume that because its broken and nobody has complained that we can remove it, or something else
  670. # [20:14] <@askalski> tbsaunde, just please review the pastebin I sent you
  671. # [20:14] <@askalski> if that's a correct test case
  672. # [20:14] <@tbsaunde> askalski: I have /no idea/ if that is corrrect xforms or not
  673. # [20:15] <@tbsaunde> davidb might know, but not me
  674. # [20:15] <@askalski> tbsaunde, ok, I'll torment someone else with that
  675. # [20:17] <@davidb> I not nothing about xforms
  676. # [20:17] <@davidb> -t
  677. # [20:17] <@davidb> +kw :)
  678. # [20:18] <@tbsaunde> davidb: but you speak more web than I do ;)
  679. # [20:18] <@davidb> aaronlev might
  680. # [20:19] <@askalski> I guess it's a wrong file, let me google some time more before calling people
  681. # [20:19] <@tbsaunde> askalski: it wouldn't suprise me at all if our code is broken here
  682. # [20:19] <@tbsaunde> now that I think about this I'd be a bit suprised if it worked
  683. # [20:21] <satdav> would be a idea to link to the wiki https://wiki.mozilla.org/Websites/Accessibility
  684. # [20:22] <@davidb> well that is brand new!
  685. # [20:22] * @davidb thinkgs
  686. # [20:22] <@davidb> satdav: so are you creating a web accessibility team/community?
  687. # [20:23] <satdav> well yes
  688. # [20:23] <satdav> well would be a good idea
  689. # [20:23] <@davidb> satdav: have you got an okay to do this?
  690. # [20:23] <satdav> spoke to christine about that yesterday
  691. # [20:23] <satdav> well christine said it was ok
  692. # [20:23] <@davidb> ok
  693. # [20:24] <@davidb> satdav: it would be good to add the purpose of this group somewhere, the scope etc.
  694. # [20:24] <@davidb> on that wiki page
  695. # [20:24] <satdav> yes
  696. # [20:25] <satdav> well its for general infromation the now
  697. # [20:25] <satdav> christine is going to come in here
  698. # [20:25] <@askalski> davidb, tbsaunde, you know, something is wrong. Absolutely no example found in the internet displays properly either in any build of firefox I have and either with chromium
  699. # [20:25] <satdav> and we are going to make this the new accessibility channel
  700. # [20:25] <@askalski> as if it was a dead standard noone uses
  701. # [20:25] <@askalski> and noone supports
  702. # [20:25] <@davidb> satdav: I'm not sure also if it is best to use this channel. #webdev would seem more appropriate to me.
  703. # [20:25] <satdav> cool
  704. # [20:26] <satdav> so whats this channel for
  705. # [20:26] <@tbsaunde> askalski: ok
  706. # [20:26] <@askalski> or the plugin is broken
  707. # [20:26] <@tbsaunde> askalski: when was it last updated? for which firefox?
  708. # [20:27] <@davidb> satdav: accessibility, but the actual people who work on the accessibility engine in C++ are the main users of this channel. I think if you want to have impact, you need to choose the channel where the people doing the work you are interested in hang out.
  709. # [20:27] <@askalski> tbsaunde, let me try with my stable build
  710. # [20:27] <@askalski> yet
  711. # [20:28] <@davidb> satdav: in fact, that makes me wonder if you should use the web dev mailing list.
  712. # [20:28] <@davidb> satdav: I guess I need to know your goals.
  713. # [20:28] <@askalski> tbsaunde, may 17, 2010
  714. # [20:28] <@askalski> and unavailable for stable build
  715. # [20:28] <@davidb> satdav: does this make sense?
  716. # [20:28] <@askalski> I'd have to force compatiblity again. I guess the standard is dead.
  717. # [20:28] <satdav> I am not c++ I am just a user
  718. # [20:28] <@davidb> askalski: that is possible
  719. # [20:29] <satdav> I am giving them feedback on the site and working with them
  720. # [20:29] <@davidb> satdav: ok great that sounds very much web dev specific to me.
  721. # [20:29] <@tbsaunde> well, I think it needs a binary component to work
  722. # [20:29] <satdav> cool
  723. # [20:29] <satdav> so i will change the wiki to webdev
  724. # [20:29] <@davidb> makes sense to me
  725. # [20:29] <@tbsaunde> so, that's not going to work, and it sounds the extenssion is sort of dead
  726. # [20:30] <@davidb> satdav: but be sure to check in with web dev :)
  727. # [20:30] <satdav> davidb, #www
  728. # [20:31] <@tbsaunde> askalski: is source avaialbe for the extension?
  729. # [20:31] <satdav> we are using
  730. # [20:31] <@davidb> thanks
  731. # [20:32] <@tbsaunde> askalski: well, probably not worth the effort to forward port it just to test
  732. # [20:32] <@askalski> tbsaunde, I see no code, but I found this on MDN XForms page:
  733. # [20:32] <@askalski> This extension, while supporting a significant subset of the XForms 1.0 and 1.1 candidate recommendations, is not actively maintained any more since about 2010. The last official release has been done for Firefox 3.6 and is available for download on addons.mozilla.org.
  734. # [20:33] <@tbsaunde> askalski: ok
  735. # [20:33] <@askalski> tbsaunde, so I'll post this info on bugzilla and ... close the bug?
  736. # [20:33] <@tbsaunde> askalski: umm, I wouldn't close it yet
  737. # [20:34] <@askalski> ok, so I'll just post the findings
  738. # [20:34] <@tbsaunde> if we decide to get rid of xforms support then we can wontfix it
  739. # [20:34] <@tbsaunde> askalski: yeah, and maybe send mail to dev-accessibility and maybe dev-platform?
  740. # [20:34] <@tbsaunde> davidb: thoughts on ^?
  741. # [20:36] <@askalski> tbsaunde, I guess that's not really to dev-accessibility if entire standard is non-usable with modern firefox versions
  742. # [20:37] <@davidb> askalski: dev-platform
  743. # [20:40] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  744. # [20:41] <@askalski> I'll try with IE yet the test cases I created. should I post them as well?
  745. # [20:43] <@askalski> god, where did m$ hide the "file/open"?
  746. # [20:55] <@askalski> davidb, I planned to post the test files I copy-n-pasted from some google results, but of course I can't remember their sources. should I post them anyway, or don't?
  747. # [20:55] <@askalski> davidb, I mean posting to bugzilla as attachment to my comment to bug
  748. # [20:55] <@davidb> sure
  749. # [21:03] <@askalski> davidb, what exactly should I send to dev-platform? A question whether they plan to support xforms in future as we don't know whether to remove our code or not?
  750. # [21:04] <@askalski> or a bug that posted examples does not display properly to my reckon?
  751. # [21:04] <@davidb> askalski: I would wait. Email surkov and tell him you'd like to ask platform whether xforms is dead as far as new releases of FF is concerned.
  752. # [21:04] <@davidb> surkov has been closest to the xforms story
  753. # [21:04] <@askalski> OK, on it
  754. # [21:04] <@hub> *sigh* conflicting review with other bug *sigh*
  755. # [21:05] <@davidb> hub: put them in a room.
  756. # [21:05] <@davidb> or is it the same review?
  757. # [21:05] <@davidb> er
  758. # [21:05] <@hub> davidb: same reporter, yeah
  759. # [21:05] <@hub> reporter / reviewer
  760. # [21:05] <@davidb> then they should win a rubber chicken or something
  761. # [21:07] <@hub> nevermind, I'll just follow the review
  762. # [21:07] <@tbsaunde> what bugs are these?
  763. # [21:08] <@askalski> thunderbird keeps suggesting to change bugzilla to godzilla in every e-mail. we should update spellcheck dictionaries :)
  764. # [21:08] <@askalski> btw, I thought about an upgrade to spellchecking, where to post it?
  765. # [21:10] <@tbsaunde> askalski: file a bug, I have no idea what component
  766. # [21:10] <@askalski> I guess it should deduce the language of paragraph using linguistic statistics. I could prototype (and optimize) the algorithm of merging installed dictionaries into a deciding mechanism
  767. # [21:10] <@tbsaunde> I believe we mostly just use hunspell
  768. # [21:10] <@askalski> it's nice algorithmical task, and if it performs well...
  769. # [21:11] <@askalski> hmm. shame. some great text algorithms are inventions of my our professor, I could really take advantage of that
  770. # [21:11] <@davidb> askalski: I'd ask ehsan
  771. # [21:11] <ehsan> ?
  772. # [21:12] <@askalski> ehsan, I am thinking whether it's possible to create a mechanism that deduces the language of paragraph (choses the most probable one among installed dictionaries), and if it's possible, I'd probably like to take part in that
  773. # [21:12] <@hub> btw why adding an empty virtual dtor when a parent class already has one?
  774. # [21:13] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
  775. # [21:13] <ehsan> askalski: you can call GetLang() which will return the language based on the rules about the lang attribute
  776. # [21:13] <ehsan> we don't support anything beyond that in gecko
  777. # [21:14] <@davidb> ehsan: do we want to?
  778. # [21:14] <@askalski> ehsan, "rules about the lang attribute"? you mean the one we set manually within context menu?
  779. # [21:14] <@tbsaunde> hub: my main reason would be so we don't have to remember if something inherits from it some day
  780. # [21:14] <ehsan> davidb: it's a very hard thing to do
  781. # [21:14] <ehsan> askalski: lookup the lang attribute in the html5 spec
  782. # [21:14] <@hub> tbsaunde: which is about the same reason I expect curly braces everywhere
  783. # [21:15] <@hub> while the virtual dtor think is actually caught by compiler warnings
  784. # [21:15] <@askalski> ehsan, so we are expecting that all input boxes will eventually be marked properly, right?
  785. # [21:15] <@tbsaunde> sure, but braces are anoying virtual dtors aren't
  786. # [21:16] <ehsan> askalski: I don't really know what problem you're trying to solve
  787. # [21:16] <@askalski> ehsan, I'm not sceptic, I think it will happen eventually. it would just make my idea not necessairy, that's why I ask
  788. # [21:16] <@davidb> tbsaunde: yeah, I used to get food stuck in my braces.
  789. # [21:16] <ehsan> askalski: well I still don't know what problem you're trying to solve :)
  790. # [21:17] <@askalski> ehsan, the problem is real life - if I use two languages (native and english) I end up switching spellchecking setting several times a day
  791. # [21:17] <ehsan> so GetLang() may or may not be useful
  792. # [21:17] <ehsan> oh ok
  793. # [21:17] <ehsan> so you're talking about spellchecking
  794. # [21:17] <ehsan> there's a bug for multi-dictionary spell checking support
  795. # [21:17] <ehsan> hunspell supports it
  796. # [21:17] <@askalski> ehsan, as a user, it's annoying. I guess that a user-friendly browser (or e-mail client) may deduce it after fourth word I write without me touching a mouse
  797. # [21:17] <@davidb> ehsan: is that code perilous?
  798. # [21:17] <ehsan> we need somebody to work on it to make the gecko bindings support it as well
  799. # [21:18] <ehsan> davidb: not really
  800. # [21:18] <ehsan> askalski: I agree
  801. # [21:18] <@davidb> ehsan: can you grab the bug #?
  802. # [21:18] <@MarcoZ> davidb: No, I haven't heard from Matt. He just didn't reply to my direct message on Twitter.
  803. # [21:18] <ehsan> bug 69687
  804. # [21:18] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69687 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Spellchecker: Multiple language design
  805. # [21:18] <ehsan> davidb: ^
  806. # [21:18] <@tbsaunde> davidb: :p
  807. # [21:18] * @MarcoZ is off for the evening now.
  808. # [21:18] <@davidb> MarcoZ: i'm going to email him
  809. # [21:19] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Good!
  810. # [21:24] * Quits: @MarcoZ (marco.zehe@moz-4A2980B5.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: night!)
  811. # [21:24] * Quits: mike5w3c (MikeS@moz-DAFE1A45.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: mike5w3c)
  812. # [21:26] <@askalski> ehsan, thanks. looks like a longer discussion was made.
  813. # [21:26] <ehsan> np
  814. # [21:26] <eeejay> davidb, could anyone put me on the mobile-dev list?
  815. # [21:27] <@davidb> eeejay: i'm not sure how these things are built
  816. # [21:27] <@askalski> davidb, ok, so it's a third bug I will not patch :). Should I come back to the first one and play with updating test cases or should I pick another one from bugs-ahoy?
  817. # [21:27] <@davidb> eeejay: ask dougt
  818. # [21:27] <eeejay> davidb, k
  819. # [21:28] <@davidb> askalski: sorry you keep getting blocked… let me think
  820. # [21:30] <@davidb> eeejay: loop back to me if that doesn't work (please)
  821. # [21:30] <eeejay> davidb, sure
  822. # [21:30] <@tbsaunde> askalski: the atk show / hide event thing *should* not end up getting blocked
  823. # [21:31] <@tbsaunde> or you can go back to the original aria thing
  824. # [21:31] <@tbsaunde> or whatever davidb thinks of :)
  825. # [21:31] * Joins: mike5w3c (MikeS@moz-DAFE1A45.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  826. # [21:32] <@davidb> tbsaunde: bug #?
  827. # [21:32] <@davidb> askalski: it makes sense to finish the first bug IMO
  828. # [21:33] <@davidb> get it off your plate
  829. # [21:33] <@davidb> askalski: you aren't blocked on test case fixage right?
  830. # [21:33] <@askalski> true. especially that now I'll have less problems with tests
  831. # [21:33] <@davidb> right
  832. # [21:33] <@davidb> go for it :)
  833. # [21:33] <@askalski> on it.
  834. # [21:34] <@davidb> and after that then the atk event thing probably is probably right - but i need to see it
  835. # [21:35] <@askalski> davidb, ok, but I need someone to tell me again what it's about. I found it on my 2do list and actually wondered where did it get from
  836. # [21:35] <@davidb> askalski: the atk thing?
  837. # [21:36] <@askalski> davidb, yes. but I guess I'll re-read it again before bothering
  838. # [21:36] <@davidb> ok
  839. # [21:36] <@askalski> *after* dealing with first bug :)
  840. # [21:36] * @davidb nods
  841. # [21:36] <@tbsaunde> davidb: bug 716865
  842. # [21:36] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  843. # [21:36] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=716865 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, atk's nsAccessibleWrap::FireShowHideEvent() makes bad assumptions about the event target
  844. # [21:36] <@davidb> ty
  845. # [21:38] <@davidb> tbsaunde: why is that atk specific?
  846. # [21:39] <@davidb> tbsaunde: also would the index stay correct or are children updated before we fire?
  847. # [21:40] <eeejay> tbsaunde, nice!
  848. # [21:40] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
  849. # [21:40] <@tbsaunde> davidb: because afaik windows doesn't care, and we don't do anything for that event on mac atm
  850. # [21:40] <@davidb> eeejay: ?
  851. # [21:40] <@davidb> tbsaunde: ok then.
  852. # [21:40] <@tbsaunde> davidb: when the event is actually fired it is nolonger in the tree iirc
  853. # [21:40] <eeejay> davidb, GNOME a11y detection is landing in aurora
  854. # [21:40] <@davidb> for hide you mean?
  855. # [21:40] <@davidb> eeejay: excellent
  856. # [21:41] <@davidb> tbsaunde: thanks for driving that
  857. # [21:41] <@davidb> I guess surkov helped too
  858. # [21:41] <@tbsaunde> yeah, surkov is bettter at convincing drivers than I am :)
  859. # [21:41] <@tbsaunde> davidb: yes for hide
  860. # [21:42] <@davidb> tbsaunde: module owner carries some weight :)
  861. # [21:42] <@tbsaunde> let me make sure show will work
  862. # [21:42] <@davidb> ok
  863. # [21:42] <@davidb> askalski: add a note for the atk bug that you'll want to use Accerciser
  864. # [21:42] <@davidb> to debug
  865. # [21:42] <@davidb> we like it so much, we bought the developer :)
  866. # [21:42] <eeejay> :)
  867. # [21:43] <@hub> did we?
  868. # [21:43] <@hub> ;-)
  869. # [21:43] <@davidb> heheh
  870. # [21:43] <@davidb> hi cbrodigan!
  871. # [21:43] <@davidb> nice to see you in here
  872. # [21:43] <@askalski> thanks
  873. # [21:43] <@davidb> np
  874. # [21:45] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I don't think you really need to do any debugging
  875. # [21:45] <@davidb> minimal, yeah
  876. # [21:46] <@tbsaunde> maybe
  877. # [21:47] * @davidb notes it is lunch time in Cali
  878. # [21:47] <@askalski> I guess that getting to know such apps it's a good thing
  879. # [21:47] <@hub> what does that mean when I get
  880. # [21:47] <@hub> ../../../dist/include/nsCOMPtr.h:566: error: ‘nsISupports’ is an ambiguous base of ‘nsDocAccessible’
  881. # [21:47] <@askalski> generally this month I haven't done much, but I learned a lot
  882. # [21:47] <@hub> ../../../dist/include/nsCOMPtr.h: In constructor ‘nsCOMPtr<T>::nsCOMPtr(T*) [with T = nsDocAccessible]’:
  883. # [21:47] <@hub> /Users/hub/source/mozilla/mozilla-central/accessible/src/base/nsAccessNode.cpp:106: instantiated from here
  884. # [21:48] <eeejay> hub, i bet you forgot a macro
  885. # [21:48] <eeejay> like the nsisupports implementation
  886. # [21:48] <eeejay> i got that error last week too
  887. # [21:48] <@hub> the only thing I did is change mDoc to be a nsCOMPth<nsDocAccessible> instead of nsDocAccessible*
  888. # [21:49] <eeejay> hub, yeah that expects a functional nsisupports because of xpc blah blah
  889. # [21:49] * eeejay is still a newb
  890. # [21:50] <eeejay> ok, lunch while i compile android ff from scratch
  891. # [21:50] <@tbsaunde> hub: that's because your a bad person putting a concrete object in a nsCOMPtr use a nsRefPtr
  892. # [21:50] <@hub> oh
  893. # [21:51] <@tbsaunde> why do you need to hold a ref though?
  894. # [21:51] <@hub> that would frakin' explain
  895. # [21:51] <@hub> tbsaunde: because surkov said so
  896. # [21:52] <@tbsaunde> hm, I don't remember that
  897. # [21:54] <@hub> on the review for bug 672504
  898. # [21:54] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=672504 nor, --, ---, hub, NEW, Don't keep pointer to weak presshell in accessible
  899. # [21:57] <@tbsaunde> hub: you mena that's pretty cool you think we don't need to keep strong reference to document but I'm sort of ready to bet we will deal here w
  900. # [21:57] <@tbsaunde> ith freaking crashes. Anyway we can go with it and then if we see lot of crashes then get back to strong ref.
  901. # [21:57] <@hub> tbsaunde: I don't disagree with using a strong ref.
  902. # [21:57] * @tbsaunde reads that to mean don't use refPtr for now, but we may end up with crashes that force us to make it a refPtr in the future
  903. # [21:58] <@hub> it was shortsighted in my part
  904. # [21:58] * @tbsaunde believes it should be weak ideally
  905. # [21:58] <@hub> so I'm putting a nsRefPtr<>
  906. # [21:58] <@tbsaunde> I'd prefer you didn't, but we can fix that later I gues
  907. # [22:01] <eeejay> hub, also, i think you are looking for nsRefPtr
  908. # [22:02] <@hub> yeah nsRefPtr<> is what I should use
  909. # [22:02] <@hub> and I am using it
  910. # [22:02] <@hub> I was getting confused between the varios smart pointers
  911. # [22:03] * Quits: @askalski (akuda@moz-6A36EC49.ip.abpl.pl) (Quit: Wychodzi)
  912. # [22:03] * Joins: askalski (akuda@moz-6A36EC49.ip.abpl.pl)
  913. # [22:03] * ChanServ sets mode: +o askalski
  914. # [22:07] <@askalski> is there a linux command to tell OS "I freed you some RAM, remove all stuff from swap space and be fast again"?
  915. # [22:07] * @davidb discovers http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/public/nsIXFormsUtilityService.h
  916. # [22:08] <@tbsaunde> davidb: yea, but its not really clear if that's implemented anywhere is it?
  917. # [22:08] <@davidb> i have no idea
  918. # [22:08] <@tbsaunde> askalski: I'm not really sure, what does swapoff do?
  919. # [22:09] <@tbsaunde> also, what have you done with all your ram?
  920. # [22:09] <@askalski> virtualbox + eclipse + linking firefox
  921. # [22:09] <@askalski> I need to shut down at least one to be fine
  922. # [22:09] <@askalski> and I use eclipse for editing, and virtualbox for testing
  923. # [22:09] <@askalski> it's a neat setup, really, but I always miss like a 1 gb :)
  924. # [22:10] <@tbsaunde> heh
  925. # [22:10] <@tbsaunde> sudo rm /usr/bin/eclipse will make that problem a lot better ;)
  926. # [22:11] <@askalski> tbsaunde, oh common, not "vim/emacs" stuff again. eclipse really helps me a lot finding stuff in the code, without it I'd ask even more trivial questions
  927. # [22:12] <@tbsaunde> heh, ctags / grep / ack-grep ftw
  928. # [22:13] * Quits: satdav (satdav@moz-1ECB932B.cable.virginmedia.com) (NickServ (GHOST command used by satdav_))
  929. # [22:13] * Quits: @aaronlev (aaronlev@moz-CDA191A6.c3-0.arl-ubr1.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com) (Ping timeout)
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  932. # [22:16] <@davidb> tbsaunde: ack-grep?
  933. # [22:17] * @davidb internets it
  934. # [22:18] * Joins: mike5w3c (MikeS@moz-DAFE1A45.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  935. # [22:19] * Quits: satdav_ (satdav@moz-1ECB932B.cable.virginmedia.com) (Connection reset by peer)
  936. # [22:28] <@davidb> ok going away for a few (hours)
  937. # [22:28] <@davidb> have a good one
  938. # [22:28] * Quits: @davidb (davidb@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Quit: davidb)
  939. # [22:33] <@hub> askalski: drop eclipse and you already free up a lot of swap
  940. # [22:34] <@hub> askalski: without eclipse you woudln't have a problem with RAM and swap
  941. # [22:34] <@askalski> hub: I limited vbox mem limit
  942. # [22:34] <@askalski> limited a limit... I shoud take a break :D
  943. # [22:34] <@hub> what do you run in vbox?
  944. # [22:34] <@askalski> another linux for testing, becaues I have different font settings and mochitests fail
  945. # [22:35] <@hub> that actually should be worth fixing
  946. # [22:35] <@askalski> you know, once I track down the real trouble maker, I'm on it
  947. # [22:35] <@askalski> honestly
  948. # [22:35] <@askalski> right now I found a test that always fails
  949. # [22:36] <@askalski> and I need to find a reason why sometimes entire tail fails
  950. # [22:36] <@hub> is there a bugzilla for that?
  951. # [22:36] <@hub> because if there is no bugzilla there is no bug
  952. # [22:36] <@askalski> I think I mentioned that on IRC
  953. # [22:37] <@askalski> and someone told me that even test slaves behave non-deterministically
  954. # [22:37] <@askalski> I celebrated several days ago that in VBox I finally found a reliable testing env
  955. # [22:37] <@askalski> and now I see that it was just not enough tests
  956. # [22:37] <@askalski> I just fired a mochitest twice, and a diff is several pages long...
  957. # [22:37] <@askalski> (diff between outputs)
  958. # [22:39] * @tbsaunde has never thought of diffing mochitest logs
  959. # [22:39] <@askalski> 8297 INFO Passed: 3256
  960. # [22:39] <@askalski> 8298 INFO Failed: 150923
  961. # [22:39] <@askalski> 8299 INFO Todo: 10
  962. # [22:39] <@askalski> 8300 INFO SimpleTest FINISHED
  963. # [22:39] <@askalski> that's one option
  964. # [22:40] <@askalski> 22757 INFO TEST-START | Shutdown
  965. # [22:40] <@askalski> 22758 INFO Passed: 21002
  966. # [22:40] <@askalski> 22759 INFO Failed: 5
  967. # [22:40] <@askalski> 22760 INFO Todo: 1167
  968. # [22:40] <@askalski> 22761 INFO SimpleTest FINISHED
  969. # [22:40] <@askalski> and that's the other (5 errors introduced by the patch I produce, so only 15k more to go)
  970. # [22:40] <@askalski> that's weird, how is it possible that TODO numbers differs
  971. # [22:41] <@tbsaunde> askalski: we don't have nearly that many tests, are you running mochitest-plain or something?
  972. # [22:41] <@askalski> time make mochitest-a11y
  973. # [22:42] <@askalski> tbsaunde, it's double weird. numbers, even sums don't match
  974. # [22:43] <@tbsaunde> askalski: that is really odd
  975. # [22:43] <@askalski> and these are different results of the same command! I copy out the output files to diff them.
  976. # [22:43] <@askalski> tbsaunde, any suggestions?
  977. # [22:43] <@tbsaunde> nto off hand, that's just oo strang
  978. # [22:43] * @tbsaunde has to run
  979. # [22:44] * tbsaunde is now known as tbsaunde|afk
  980. # [22:44] <@askalski> right , I will be finishing for today
  981. # [22:44] <@askalski> thanks for your help
  982. # [22:44] <@askalski> bye everyone!
  983. # [22:44] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@51C7938A.BEB908B0.79933D60.IP) (Ping timeout)
  984. # [22:45] * Quits: @askalski (akuda@moz-6A36EC49.ip.abpl.pl) (Quit: Wychodzi)
  985. # [23:16] * tbsaunde|afk is now known as tbsaunde
  986. # [23:18] * Quits: shorlander (shorlander@moz-853043D6.dhcp.insightbb.com) (Ping timeout)
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  988. # [23:28] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  989. # [23:47] * shorlander_ is now known as shorlander_-away
  990. # Session Close: Fri Jan 27 00:00:03 2012

The end :)