/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2012-02-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 08 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  5. # [00:12] <@firebot> mak77@bonardo.net changed the Status on bug 672507 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  6. # [00:12] <@firebot> mak77@bonardo.net set the Resolution field on bug 672507 to FIXED.
  7. # [00:12] <@firebot> mak77@bonardo.net changed the Target Milestone on bug 672507 from --- to mozilla13.
  8. # [00:12] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=672507 nor, --, ---, trev.saunders, NEW, merge nsIAccessNode and nsIAccessible
  9. # [00:15] <@tbsaunde> \O/
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  11. # [00:20] <@hub> this one caused me some rebasing work
  12. # [00:20] <@hub> but it is over now
  13. # [00:21] <@tbsaunde> yeah, its a huge patch so I'm not suprised
  14. # [00:22] <@hub> neither am I
  15. # [00:22] <@hub> and hg is kinda incompetent with merges too
  16. # [00:22] <@hub> :-/
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  19. # [00:23] <@hub> how did we do before version control?
  20. # [00:24] <@tbsaunde> hub: that's why I try and only move patches to hg from git right before I push
  21. # [00:25] <@hub> tbsaunde: maybe I should just do that
  22. # [00:25] <@tbsaunde> hub: but you might be able to make mqueue use a merge tool or something slightly better than rej files
  23. # [00:26] <@tbsaunde> I've thought about keeping a public tree on github or a private server but never bothered
  24. # [00:27] <@hub> tbsaunde: there is one on github
  25. # [00:27] <@tbsaunde> hub: yeah, I know
  26. # [00:27] <@tbsaunde> I mean make the stuff I'm working on public
  27. # [00:27] <@tbsaunde> like a user repo on hg.m.o
  28. # [00:27] <satdav> does anyone know of a screen reader for linux
  29. # [00:27] <@hub> oh I see
  30. # [00:27] <@tbsaunde> satdav: orca
  31. # [00:27] <@hub> satdav: Orca
  32. # [00:28] <satdav> is it free
  33. # [00:28] <@hub> satdav: installed by default on most distro
  34. # [00:28] <satdav> as i am doing a kb on sumo
  35. # [00:28] <@hub> satdav: it is Free Software
  36. # [00:28] <satdav> i have added the mac default one
  37. # [00:28] <satdav> my college uses read and write pro or that
  38. # [00:28] <@hub> satdav: the current build of Firefox on Mac don't support VoiceOer
  39. # [00:28] <satdav> a paid one
  40. # [00:28] <satdav> it should support it
  41. # [00:28] <@hub> satdav: I'm fixing that, but it won't be before FF13
  42. # [00:29] <satdav> cool
  43. # [00:29] <satdav> and when will that be released
  44. # [00:29] <@hub> for now, it is not even scheduled
  45. # [00:29] <@hub> FF13 would be the earliest
  46. # [00:29] <@hub> and 18 weeks for now to hit release
  47. # [00:29] <@hub> at least
  48. # [00:30] <satdav> hub, would be better with a addon i would say
  49. # [00:30] <@hub> satdav: we have accessibility support in the other platforms. just that it was broken on Mac
  50. # [00:30] <satdav> http://www.screenreader.net/ has anyone tried http://www.screenreader.net/
  51. # [00:30] <satdav> oh
  52. # [00:32] <satdav> http://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/Accessibility
  53. # [00:32] <satdav> I have to keep that page updated reguler
  54. # [00:34] <satdav> if any of you guys wants to help then go ahead
  55. # [00:34] <satdav> does ken the guy who runs http://www.accessfirefox.org/ do irc
  56. # [00:35] <khuey> !seen ksaunders
  57. # [00:35] <@firebot> I've never seen a 'ksaunders', sorry.
  58. # [00:35] <khuey> hmm, not sure
  59. # [00:35] <khuey> thought I've seen him before
  60. # [00:36] <satdav> !seen ken
  61. # [00:36] <@firebot> ken was last seen 113 weeks, 4 days, 20 hours, 33 minutes and 44 seconds ago, saying 'Hi' in #firefox.
  62. # [00:36] <satdav> !seen kensaunders
  63. # [00:36] <@firebot> I've never seen a 'kensaunders', sorry.
  64. # [00:36] <satdav> khuey, would it be that ken nick
  65. # [00:36] <satdav> !seen kens
  66. # [00:37] <@firebot> kens was last seen 174 weeks, 2 hours, 52 minutes and 20 seconds ago, saying 'Not too hard to digest though' in #accessibility.
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  68. # [00:37] <satdav> or that one
  69. # [00:38] <@hub> that's a while ago
  70. # [00:38] <satdav> YES I KNOW
  71. # [00:39] <satdav> over a year
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  74. # [00:43] <@hub> satdav: something like 3.5
  75. # [00:44] <satdav> true
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  78. # [00:49] <@hub> and it never ends. this time it is Android that turns orange
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  80. # [01:19] <@tbsaunde> hub: I thought that was the normal color for android =p
  81. # [01:20] <@hub> now I have a leak in Debug....
  82. # [01:20] <@hub> :-/
  83. # [01:21] <@hub> tbsaunde: apparently it is
  84. # [01:22] <@tbsaunde> you actually star your inbound pushes yourself?
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  86. # [01:24] <@hub> I didn't star anything
  87. # [01:26] <@tbsaunde> hub: sure, but you seem to be watching tbpl
  88. # [01:26] <@hub> tbsaunde: I was watching mine, yeah
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  93. # [01:36] <@tbsaunde> surkov: I'll look into your comments in a day or two realy busy with school till then
  94. # [01:36] * @tbsaunde has lots of sml and a history paper to write asap
  95. # [01:37] <@surkov> sure
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  107. # [02:30] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 725178 filed by surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  108. # [02:30] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=725178 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, get rid ensureAccessibleTree of common.js
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  110. # [02:34] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Target Milestone on bug 672504 from mozilla13 to ---.
  111. # [02:34] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Target Milestone on bug 673405 from mozilla13 to ---.
  112. # [02:34] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=672504 nor, --, ---, hub, ASSI, Don't keep pointer to weak presshell in accessible
  113. # [02:34] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=673405 cri, --, ---, hub, NEW, Rename GetDocAccessible() to Document()
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  118. # [02:43] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com cancelled review?(surkov.alexander@gm ail.com) for attachment 595044 on bug 717506.
  119. # [02:43] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=717506 nor, --, ---, askalski, NEW, telemetry for xforms use
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  125. # [02:58] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com granted review for attachment 595165 on bug 723796.
  126. # [02:58] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=723796 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, rename nsAccessible::GetAllowsAnonChildAccessibles
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  128. # [03:21] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com denied review for attachment 594986 on bug 706134.
  129. # [03:21] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=706134 nor, --, ---, askalski, NEW, ARIA listitem shouldn't expose selectable state and pick up aria-selected and aria-checked
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  165. # [08:29] <@firebot> marco.zehe@googlemail.com changed the Status on bug 558589 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
  166. # [08:29] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=558589 min, --, ---, marco.zehe, ASSI, A11y tests which depend on the "tabbrowser API" should explicitly check its availability.
  167. # [08:53] <@hub> rebase time
  168. # [08:53] <@hub> *sigh*
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  190. # [11:44] <@tbsaunde> surkov: I'm not sure we actually fire value change events for atk when the value of a combo box changes since we QI the accessible to nsIAccessibleValue before fireing the event
  191. # [11:44] <@tbsaunde> but perhaps we should fire value change for that case
  192. # [11:46] <@surkov> tbsaunde, it sounds we do since ARIA combo box should implement this interface
  193. # [11:46] <@tbsaunde> surkov: should it really? what is its numeric value?
  194. # [11:47] <@surkov> tbsaunde: that's very good question :)
  195. # [11:48] <@surkov> tbsaunde: yes, that's a bug
  196. # [11:49] <@tbsaunde> surkov: oh, and aria list box appears to be eNoValue so nsAccessible::QueryInterface will say its not a nsIAccessibleValue afaik
  197. # [11:49] <@surkov> right
  198. # [11:50] <@tbsaunde> surkov: but we shouldn't fire events in that case?
  199. # [11:50] <@surkov> maybe not, iirc orca is going to listen selection change events
  200. # [11:51] <@surkov> windows screen readers relies on value change event
  201. # [11:51] <@tbsaunde> surkov: ok
  202. # [11:51] <@tbsaunde> surkov: which part were you saying is a bug? I can try and file in a bit
  203. # [11:51] <@tbsaunde> unless you want to since you understand :)
  204. # [11:51] <@surkov> tbsaunde: role="combo box" shouldn't implement nsIAccessibleValue
  205. # [11:53] <@surkov> tbsaunde: Bug 390129
  206. # [11:53] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=390129 nor, --, ---, aaronlev, RESO FIXED, Support aaa:expanded="true" on ARIA combobox
  207. # [11:53] <@tbsaunde> surkov: ok
  208. # [11:54] <@surkov> oops not this one
  209. # [11:54] <@surkov> but change set refers to this bug - http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/a55d93c82a17
  210. # [11:55] <@surkov> maybe we'll never know a reason
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  212. # [11:55] <@tbsaunde> surkov: yeah, maybe :/
  213. # [11:55] <@surkov> anyway ARIA spec doesn't allow these attributes http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#combobox so I think we need to fix that on our side
  214. # [11:56] <@surkov> tbsaunde: are you going to file a bug? that should be a good first one
  215. # [11:57] <@tbsaunde> surkov: I can't for a while
  216. # [11:57] <@tbsaunde> I have several pages to write in the next couple hours
  217. # [11:57] <@surkov> I will then
  218. # [11:57] <@tbsaunde> I shouldn't be distracting my self now as much as I already am =p
  219. # [11:57] <@tbsaunde> thx
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  221. # [12:01] <Stevef> surkov: re: HTML5 context menu https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=617528#c169
  222. # [12:01] <@firebot> Bug 617528 enh, --, mozilla8, Jan.Varga, ASSI, implement the HTML5 "context menu" feature (contextmenu attribute)
  223. # [12:02] <Stevef> also any idea about whether mozilla are sticking with <menuitem> rather than as specced?
  224. # [12:03] <@surkov> Stevef: you found a bug
  225. # [12:03] <Stevef> ok thought i might just be missing some magic
  226. # [12:04] <@surkov> Stevef: what platform is alt+f10 is used on?
  227. # [12:04] <Stevef> windows
  228. # [12:05] <Stevef> sorry not alt is shift+f10
  229. # [12:05] <@surkov> ok
  230. # [12:06] <Stevef> surkov:have updated bug
  231. # [12:07] <@surkov> thx
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  235. # [12:24] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 725259 filed by surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  236. # [12:24] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=725259 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, ARIA role combobox shouldn't allow aria-valueXXX attributes
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  239. # [12:35] <@tbsaunde> surkov: what do you want to do about how that change will effect what atk fires value change events for
  240. # [12:35] * Quits: jhk (jiggy@8E6C34C1.A3F9767A.1C37C358.IP) (Ping timeout)
  241. # [12:36] <@surkov> tbsaunde: I hope they aren't used
  242. # [12:36] <@surkov> we need to ask joanie
  243. # [12:39] * Joins: jhk (jiggy@8E6C34C1.A3F9767A.1C37C358.IP)
  244. # [12:42] <@MarcoZ> surkov: And NVDA.
  245. # [12:42] <@surkov> MarcoZ: NVDA shouldn't care
  246. # [12:43] <@MarcoZ> surkov: You may be right, I think they only use it for edit combos, not for combo boxes.
  247. # [12:43] <@surkov> MarcoZ: use what?
  248. # [12:43] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Valuechange.
  249. # [12:43] <@surkov> MarcoZ: ah, it doesn't affect on value change on windows
  250. # [12:44] <@MarcoZ> surkov: OK
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  255. # [13:50] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 559749 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  256. # [13:50] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 559749 to WORKSFORME.
  257. # [13:50] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=559749 nor, --, ---, nobody, RESO WORKSFORME, add accessibility support of @autocomplete attribute on HTML input
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  260. # [14:30] <john_> Ded
  261. # [14:30] <john_> Dd
  262. # [14:30] <john_> D
  263. # [14:30] <john_> D
  264. # [14:30] <john_> Dd
  265. # [14:30] <john_> D
  266. # [14:30] <john_> D
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  271. # [14:49] <@tbsaunde> mjorning davidb
  272. # [14:52] <@MarcoZ> Good morning davidb!
  273. # [14:52] <@davidb> hi all!
  274. # [14:52] <@davidb> hi tbsaunde MarcoZ
  275. # [14:53] <@davidb> surkov: you are filling my bug mail folder :)
  276. # [14:53] <@davidb> love it
  277. # [14:53] <@surkov> thx
  278. # [14:56] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Anything you'd like to have added to today's agenda? https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/Meetings/2012-02-08
  279. # [14:56] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Great blog post by the way!
  280. # [14:56] <@surkov> MarcoZ: thx!
  281. # [14:58] <@davidb> MarcoZ: maybe telemetry/memory
  282. # [15:09] <@MarcoZ> davidb: OK! Have you found something interesting or worrying?
  283. # [15:09] <@davidb> minor interesting thing
  284. # [15:09] <@MarcoZ> davidb: OK.
  285. # [15:10] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Speaking of telemetry: Has the screen reader picture changed at all since the uplift to Aurora happened?
  286. # [15:10] <@davidb> that's the little thing :)
  287. # [15:10] <@davidb> WE shows up
  288. # [15:10] <@MarcoZ> OK :)
  289. # [15:10] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Oh how nice!
  290. # [15:10] <@davidb> but also i want to comment briefly on what we are collecting, and what we might want to collect
  291. # [15:12] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Added.
  292. # [15:16] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Regarding bug 558589, I believe I'll have to split the tests up into two parts somehow: One that tests the manual autocomplete stuff and one that does the same with the searchBar autocomplete. Not sure how I have to do that yet, but I believe just putting it all into a separate browser window wouldn't work.
  293. # [15:16] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=558589 min, --, ---, marco.zehe, ASSI, A11y tests which depend on the "tabbrowser API" should explicitly check its availability.
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  302. # [15:49] <@surkov> MarcoZ: splitting is fine if we need to, I'm not sure what exactly you keep in mind though but I hope to read in bugzilla soon :)
  303. # [15:50] <@MarcoZ> surkov: I'm just thinking that it might be difficult to simply try to access the search bar within the current test file. But I can try that.
  304. # [15:50] <@surkov> yeah, right, separate test is fine I think
  305. # [15:51] <@surkov> we shouldn't mix UI and XUL/HTML things
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  309. # [16:04] <@askalski> hi
  310. # [16:04] <@askalski> I have problem accessing Vidyo, anyone else?
  311. # [16:05] <@askalski> I always wanted to talk to firebot.
  312. # [16:05] <@askalski> firebot, hi!
  313. # [16:05] <@firebot> askalski
  314. # [16:06] <@tbsaunde> askalski: haven't tried today
  315. # [16:06] <@askalski> davidb, hi, is Vidyo working?
  316. # [16:06] <@davidb> i'll try now
  317. # [16:06] <@askalski> if it's not then it's probably IP settings here, I can either go via skype gateway (if it exists) or route the connection via VPN which will kill the performance
  318. # [16:07] <@davidb> WFM
  319. # [16:07] <@davidb> askalski: i'll hang in the room if you want to try (meeting is in 30 mins)
  320. # [16:08] <@tbsaunde> davidb: so, with video is there a way for people without ldap access to participate easily? I gues we can have them use the phone thing
  321. # [16:08] <@davidb> yes
  322. # [16:08] <@askalski> davidb, good, but it seems like my vidyodesktop died
  323. # [16:08] <@davidb> there is a link they can click
  324. # [16:08] <@tbsaunde> davidb: oh, I thought MarcoZ said that was just if you have an ldap account
  325. # [16:09] <@davidb> tbsaunde: there is a link here https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/Meetings
  326. # [16:09] <@davidb> not sure you need ldap for that
  327. # [16:09] <@davidb> here is the link: https://v.mozilla.com/flex.html?roomdirect.html&key=DsmJFkwXvWkY
  328. # [16:12] <@askalski> davidb, honestly, I don't think I will be able to connect
  329. # [16:12] <@askalski> the vidyodesktop is runned as always, but firefox does not see it
  330. # [16:12] <@davidb> odd
  331. # [16:12] <@askalski> it's the problem with application
  332. # [16:12] <@askalski> I guess it's ff update
  333. # [16:12] <@tbsaunde> davidb: ok, well, orca really doesn't like that page, put plugin-container doesn't seem to be running so I'm not sure what's up
  334. # [16:13] <@askalski> I have an idea, w8
  335. # [16:13] <@davidb> tbsaunde: oh, that link is for actual vidyo desktop client users
  336. # [16:13] <@davidb> (i think)
  337. # [16:13] * Joins: ptheriault (ptheriault@moz-4BE034AB.ptr.us.xo.net)
  338. # [16:13] <@tbsaunde> davidb: oic
  339. # [16:14] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I don't really care, but I think it should be possible for people with out ldap to join without having to ask for help :)
  340. # [16:14] * Joins: hub (hub@moz-E2FCA694.figuiere.net)
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  342. # [16:14] <@askalski> davidb, it's vidyodesktop. other browser doesn't change anything
  343. # [16:14] <@askalski> I'll reboot just for sure
  344. # [16:14] <@davidb> tbsaunde: i agree
  345. # [16:14] <@davidb> askalski: ok
  346. # [16:14] * Quits: @askalski (akuda@moz-104CC309.mv.mozilla.com) (Quit: Wychodzi)
  347. # [16:15] <@davidb> tbsaunde: so, as far as I know, people can freely dial in, and if they want to install vidyo they can then use that direct link.
  348. # [16:15] * Joins: jhk (jiggy@8E6C34C1.A3F9767A.1C37C358.IP)
  349. # [16:17] <@tbsaunde> davidb: oh, I see MarcoZ did mention that way
  350. # [16:17] * Joins: muralisr92 (chatzilla@moz-A696D59A.pc.nus.edu.sg)
  351. # [16:17] <@davidb> hi muralisr92
  352. # [16:17] <muralisr92> hey
  353. # [16:18] <muralisr92> i'm going to look at our bug now
  354. # [16:18] <muralisr92> but i saw the comment from surkov
  355. # [16:19] <muralisr92> but i am unable to understand what he is trying to sayy :(
  356. # [16:19] <@davidb> muralisr92: basically you need to trigger the context menu like in the test he points to, then test the tree.
  357. # [16:20] <@davidb> unfortunately he's going to bed now
  358. # [16:20] * Joins: askalski (akuda@moz-104CC309.mv.mozilla.com)
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  360. # [16:20] <@askalski> davidb, no progress
  361. # [16:21] <@davidb> askalski: can you dial in to the vidyo meeting?
  362. # [16:21] <@askalski> davidb, you mean by phone? double roaming would kill me
  363. # [16:21] <@davidb> can you use Skype to dial out?
  364. # [16:22] <@tbsaunde> askalski: you should be able to use skype I think if thats better
  365. # [16:22] <@davidb> maybe there is a sip bridge
  366. # [16:22] <@askalski> davidb, the only possible option I can think of is v... darn, virtualbox cannot bridge cameras, it's not vmware
  367. # [16:22] * @davidb multi-multitasks
  368. # [16:22] <@davidb> we don't need camera
  369. # [16:22] <@askalski> davidb, I can ask at #desktop if you
  370. # [16:22] <@askalski> *you're busy
  371. # [16:22] <@davidb> sure
  372. # [16:22] <@askalski> ok
  373. # [16:22] <@davidb> they know more than me anyway :)
  374. # [16:23] <@davidb> (always busy - always want to help)
  375. # [16:23] <muralisr92> davidb: so right now, im just testing the tree.. i need to do the stuff like opening the menu, selecting an item in it etc and then test the tree??
  376. # [16:23] <@askalski> davidb, darn, #desktop is yet asleep
  377. # [16:24] <@tbsaunde> muralisr92: I believe so
  378. # [16:26] <@davidb> muralisr92: you really need to actually be able to run the tests in order to fix this bug.
  379. # [16:26] <@davidb> I highly recommend that as your next step.
  380. # [16:26] <@davidb> details are here: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/Contribute
  381. # [16:26] <muralisr92> i was just googling for that page!
  382. # [16:26] <@davidb> muralisr92: if you do it this way: python runtests.py --a11y
  383. # [16:27] <@davidb> then you can select the specific test to run (they won't all auto run)
  384. # [16:27] <@tbsaunde> davidb: you can do that with TEST_PATH=blah make mochitest-a11y too :)
  385. # [16:27] <muralisr92> okay, so i should write up the test, then run it and if it succeeds, i'll put it up??
  386. # [16:27] <@tbsaunde> fwiw
  387. # [16:28] <@davidb> tbsaunde: yep
  388. # [16:28] <@davidb> tbsaunde: feel free to add to the wiki
  389. # [16:28] <@tbsaunde> ok
  390. # [16:28] <@davidb> muralisr92: running the tests and seeing how they fail will help you iterate toward a good solution.
  391. # [16:29] * Joins: nhirata (nhirata.bu@moz-BBE3ABD.mv.mozilla.com)
  392. # [16:29] <@davidb> muralisr92: for example, you might find that you can't test the menu until it is invoked
  393. # [16:29] <@MarcoZ> tbsaunde: I don't understand why this convoluted make statement is necessary if you can just run runtests.py with the --a11y parameter. :)
  394. # [16:30] <@tbsaunde> MarcoZ: it's not really that conviluted, but it means once the thing starts you don't have to do anything
  395. # [16:30] <@davidb> convolution is in the eye of the beholder :)
  396. # [16:30] * @tbsaunde prefers to turn orca off when running tests
  397. # [16:30] <muralisr92> okay thanks a lot! i'll look at the context menu example, understand it and implement the same thing in my test!! and im really really sorry, but if i run into some piece of code that i dont understand i'll drop by here and nag u guys again... :P
  398. # [16:31] <@MarcoZ> tbsaunde: Ah, so that line tells the make -f client.mk build command to run the tests automatically once the build finishes?
  399. # [16:31] <@MarcoZ> tbsaunde: Yeah I turn off NVDA, too.
  400. # [16:32] <@davidb> askalski: can you use Skype to dial +1 800 707 2533 (pin 369) Conf# 99369
  401. # [16:32] <@tbsaunde> MarcoZ: no, it only runs the tests, but if you don't set TEST_PATH in the enviroment of make then it make mochitest-a11y does all the tests
  402. # [16:33] <@tbsaunde> anyway, I'm moving to someplace I can call from
  403. # [16:33] * Quits: mike5w3c (MikeS@moz-DAFE1A45.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: mike5w3c)
  404. # [16:34] * tbsaunde is now known as tbsaunde|mtg
  405. # [16:35] * davidb is now known as davidb|mtg
  406. # [16:37] * Joins: eeejay_mac (eitan@moz-6CE338E8.tukw.qwest.net)
  407. # [16:38] <@davidb|mtg> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/Meetings/2012-02-08
  408. # [16:38] <@davidb|mtg> meeting is on!
  409. # [16:39] * Joins: mike5w3c (MikeS@moz-DAFE1A45.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
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  411. # [16:45] <@davidb|mtg> askalski: can you mute
  412. # [16:45] <@askalski> I can mute
  413. # [16:45] <@askalski> OK
  414. # [16:45] <@askalski> davidb|mtg, done
  415. # [16:46] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@86FDEBD.6D2FB7A4.79933D60.IP) (Ping timeout)
  416. # [16:47] <@askalski> davidb|mtg, I'm still waiting for confirmation from my promotor
  417. # [16:47] <@askalski> on adding a week
  418. # [16:47] <@davidb|mtg> askalski: thanks
  419. # [16:47] <@davidb|mtg> hub: not sure your mic is hooked up
  420. # [16:52] <@hub> davidb|mtg: it was hooked up, just low volume. i'm on a different machine this AM
  421. # [16:52] <@davidb|mtg> ok
  422. # [16:52] <@hub> so the setting were not the same
  423. # [17:00] <@askalski> number?
  424. # [17:01] <@davidb|mtg> bug 724672 - you don't need to worry too much about it.
  425. # [17:01] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=724672 nor, --, 1.7, bolterbugz, NEW, [One Mozilla clean-up] Accessibility Content
  426. # [17:01] <@davidb|mtg> mostly it is triage work for people senior to moz a11y
  427. # [17:02] <@firebot> tobbi.bugs@googlemail.com requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 595410 on bug 725178.
  428. # [17:02] <@firebot> tobbi.bugs@googlemail.com changed the Status on bug 725178 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
  429. # [17:02] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=725178 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, get rid ensureAccessibleTree of common.js
  430. # [17:03] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@C092FEB2.1C233438.79933D60.IP)
  431. # [17:03] <@askalski> none offence taken :)
  432. # [17:04] * Quits: muralisr92 (chatzilla@moz-A696D59A.pc.nus.edu.sg) (Ping timeout)
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  434. # [17:04] <@askalski> you mean the desing of new standards?
  435. # [17:04] <@askalski> *design
  436. # [17:05] <@askalski> davidb|mtg, do you mean designing new standards?
  437. # [17:05] <@davidb|mtg> askalski: no, designing out web presence
  438. # [17:05] <@davidb|mtg> out/our
  439. # [17:05] <@askalski> ok
  440. # [17:09] <@askalski> davidb|mtg, can you describe more about thunderbird?
  441. # [17:09] <@askalski> davidb|mtg, what kind of experience is required?
  442. # [17:09] <@davidb|mtg> bug 763860
  443. # [17:09] <@davidb|mtg> askalski: will tell you later :)
  444. # [17:12] <@askalski> bye
  445. # [17:12] * Quits: muralisr92 (chatzilla@moz-A696D59A.pc.nus.edu.sg) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0/20120129141257])
  446. # [17:12] <@davidb|mtg> MarcoZ: can you give me 5-10 mins?
  447. # [17:13] * @davidb|mtg has to preview a devtool blog
  448. # [17:15] <@MarcoZ> davidb|mtg: Sure!
  449. # [17:15] <@MarcoZ> davidb|mtg: The bug for TB that we talked about is bug 673860.
  450. # [17:15] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=673860 maj, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [Thunderbird] Adding more than one addressee in message composition, we don't create accessibles for
  451. # [17:15] <@davidb|mtg> thanks
  452. # [17:15] * tbsaunde|mtg is now known as tbsaunde
  453. # [17:19] <@davidb|mtg> who are our python hackers? eeejay, askalski … tbsaunde ?
  454. # [17:19] * @davidb|mtg is ready when MarcoZ is
  455. # [17:20] <@askalski> davidb|mtg, oh, actually there is something I would like you to ask
  456. # [17:20] <@tbsaunde> davidb|mtg: I wouldn't really say I know python, but if I need to I can hit it with a hammer till it works
  457. # [17:20] <@askalski> davidb|mtg, for a long time I was thinking about becoming a scala-hacker :), but that would consume some more time
  458. # [17:20] <@davidb|mtg> heh
  459. # [17:20] * @davidb|mtg really in meeting now
  460. # [17:20] <@askalski> davidb|mtg, OK
  461. # [17:24] * Quits: skyler_brungardt (skyler@moz-9FA3C392.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Quit: skyler_brungardt)
  462. # [17:25] <@tbsaunde> MarcoZ: isn't that bug probably a dup of one gin filed a while ago? 65xxxx about the profile manager thing and creating new profiles
  463. # [17:26] * Quits: ptheriault (ptheriault@moz-4BE034AB.ptr.us.xo.net) (Connection reset by peer)
  464. # [17:29] <@tbsaunde> ok, /me -> class
  465. # [17:29] * tbsaunde is now known as tbsaunde|afk
  466. # [17:34] * davidb|mtg is now known as davidb
  467. # [17:34] <@davidb> askalski: a question?
  468. # [17:35] <@askalski> davidb, about whether I can waste some time learning scala for next scripts, or should I stick with Python for performance and reason that people are more familiar with it
  469. # [17:36] <@askalski> davidb, I have some basics, but I guess I would be writing slowly. Still, scripts does not consume much of the time. I spend it mostly compiling and mochitesting :D
  470. # [17:36] <@askalski> (and reading)
  471. # [17:37] <@askalski> davidb, anyway, if you don't see future applications of scala, then I'll just do it in my spare time some day later
  472. # [17:40] * Joins: skyler_brungardt (skyler@3459447D.62BEB748.75EC3910.IP)
  473. # [17:40] <@davidb> sorry stepped away to look at a popcorn app
  474. # [17:40] <@davidb> back now
  475. # [17:40] <@askalski> davidb, popcorn app?
  476. # [17:40] <@davidb> askalski: i wouldn't spend time on scala
  477. # [17:41] <@askalski> davidb, OK
  478. # [17:41] <@askalski> what is popcorn app?
  479. # [17:41] <@davidb> http://popcornjs.org/
  480. # [17:41] <@davidb> somebody at a local school is building a slideshow using popcorn.js and we'll make it accessible.
  481. # [17:42] <@davidb> i'll pour an hour or two into it when he has the next rev done
  482. # [17:43] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Very nice!
  483. # [17:43] <@MarcoZ> I'd love to try it out then.
  484. # [17:43] <@davidb> it is very promising
  485. # [17:43] <@davidb> great
  486. # [17:43] <@askalski> davidb, I am going to relocate now, it got cold in this room, be back in 15
  487. # [17:43] <@davidb> ok
  488. # [17:43] * Quits: @askalski (akuda@moz-104CC309.mv.mozilla.com) (Quit: Wychodzi)
  489. # [17:50] <@firebot> hub@mozilla.com requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 595422 on bug 721947.
  490. # [17:50] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=721947 nor, --, ---, hub, NEW, don't use nsIWeakShell
  491. # [17:52] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  492. # [18:00] * Joins: a-865 (fmcz@moz-A5D13CA.cable.mindspring.com)
  493. # [18:06] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Status on bug 717506 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  494. # [18:06] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk set the Resolution field on bug 717506 to FIXED.
  495. # [18:07] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Target Milestone on bug 717506 from --- to mozilla13.
  496. # [18:07] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=717506 nor, --, mozilla13, askalski, RESO FIXED, telemetry for xforms use
  497. # [18:07] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Status on bug 723833 from ASSIGNED to RESOLVED.
  498. # [18:07] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk set the Resolution field on bug 723833 to FIXED.
  499. # [18:07] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Target Milestone on bug 723833 from --- to mozilla13.
  500. # [18:07] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=723833 nor, --, mozilla13, surkov.alexander, RESO FIXED, IAccessibleText::setCaretOffset on location or search bar causes focus to jump
  501. # [18:16] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Status on bug 723796 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  502. # [18:16] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk set the Resolution field on bug 723796 to FIXED.
  503. # [18:16] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Target Milestone on bug 723796 from --- to mozilla13.
  504. # [18:16] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=723796 nor, --, mozilla13, joey.blacksmith, RESO FIXED, rename nsAccessible::GetAllowsAnonChildAccessibles
  505. # [18:24] * Joins: askalski (akuda@moz-104CC309.mv.mozilla.com)
  506. # [18:24] * ChanServ sets mode: +o askalski
  507. # [18:26] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
  508. # [18:29] * Joins: ptheriault (ptheriault@moz-4BE034AB.ptr.us.xo.net)
  509. # [18:32] <@askalski> MarcoZ, is there a way to tell hg to revert a changes for a single file, and by saying revert-the-changes I mean "unapply current patch to this single file"?
  510. # [18:32] <@hub> hg revert path/to/file
  511. # [18:33] <@hub> oh wait, from the patch queue?
  512. # [18:45] * Joins: richardschwerdtfeger (richardsch@moz-130F1494.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net)
  513. # [18:52] <@askalski> hub, I wanted to revert all changes induced by queue, and just re-download head version
  514. # [18:53] <@askalski> hub, did it manually this time :(
  515. # [18:53] <@askalski> davidb, how often do you checkout (update) repository? or - how long one can work without updating? recompile still takes me a long time
  516. # [18:55] <@davidb> on a development day i usually do an update
  517. # [18:56] <@askalski> davidb, ok. same here
  518. # [18:56] <@davidb> askalski: if compiling is slow for you i'd like to solve that
  519. # [18:56] <@askalski> davidb, I use ccache and all the stuff, and talked with #desktop
  520. # [18:57] <@davidb> (i7 + SSD + >=8 GB RAM)
  521. # [18:57] <@askalski> they offered me a laptop to pick up while I'll be in Toronto
  522. # [18:57] <@davidb> good
  523. # [18:57] <@askalski> yes. that I think. lenovo w500 is my type now, or dell m4600 (it has a lot of ram option)
  524. # [18:57] <@davidb> askalski: cc me on any related bug please
  525. # [18:57] <@askalski> OK
  526. # [18:57] <@askalski> *w520
  527. # [18:58] <@askalski> ok, i need to relocate again, be back in an hour. I am finishing with ARIA bug right now
  528. # [18:58] <@askalski> it just compiled, gonna test at home
  529. # [18:58] <@askalski> see you
  530. # [18:58] <@davidb> ciao
  531. # [18:58] * Quits: @askalski (akuda@moz-104CC309.mv.mozilla.com) (Quit: Wychodzi)
  532. # [19:02] <@MarcoZ> davidb: I'm *really* curious if we will ever see XForms use show up in telemetry.
  533. # [19:02] <@davidb> i don't see how we can
  534. # [19:03] <@davidb> but yes
  535. # [19:03] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Have you looked at other data that we collect, like the depricated table stuff and iSimpleDOM usage statistics?
  536. # [19:03] <@davidb> that's the one we can't get clarity of the data on yet, except that it is used.
  537. # [19:04] <@davidb> (ISimpleDOM)
  538. # [19:10] <@davidb> I see IAccessibleTable usage as well
  539. # [19:10] <@davidb> i can't correlate by screen reader though
  540. # [19:10] * @davidb needs coffee
  541. # [19:20] <@davidb> ok espresso, do your thing
  542. # [19:22] <@davidb> oh 11% WE
  543. # [19:24] <@MarcoZ> davidb: It's probably older versions of WE and JAWS. Can't imagine much older NVDA still floating around.
  544. # [19:25] <@MarcoZ> OK, I'm going off for the evening. Hub, good luck with getting a review and your third landing attempt! :)
  545. # [19:25] <@davidb> g'night
  546. # [19:25] * Quits: @MarcoZ (marco.zehe@moz-20316C0D.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Good night!)
  547. # [19:31] * Quits: @hub (hub@moz-E2FCA694.figuiere.net) (Ping timeout)
  548. # [19:34] <@firebot> jigneshhk1992@gmail.com requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 595446 on bug 539694.
  549. # [19:34] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=539694 nor, --, mozilla11, jigneshhk1992, ASSI, accessible objects should have private copy constructor
  550. # [19:46] * Joins: askalski (akuda@moz-4C8A107E.pool85-48-91.dynamic.orange.es)
  551. # [19:46] * ChanServ sets mode: +o askalski
  552. # [19:47] <@askalski> back!
  553. # [19:48] * Joins: hub (hub@21B7B9F2.B87E9213.6E712CE2.IP)
  554. # [19:48] * ChanServ sets mode: +o hub
  555. # [19:53] <@tbsaunde|afk> askalski: I usually update every so often but probably not every day
  556. # [19:54] <@askalski> tbsaunde|afk, thanks. so far I usually did every morning while doing first coffee. you know, I/O operations :)
  557. # [19:55] * tbsaunde|afk is now known as tbsaunde
  558. # [19:55] <@askalski> tbsaunde, today I just wanted to avoid that while fixing yesterday patches
  559. # [19:55] <@tbsaunde> askalski: I gues that works, but it often will mean you'll have to start the day with a full build
  560. # [19:55] <@tbsaunde> and I have several work dirs
  561. # [19:56] <@askalski> I have two repos, cause it never happened to me to get clean mochitest results, so I need a clean build as a reference of what is OK right now :)
  562. # [19:56] <@tbsaunde> I ... see
  563. # [19:57] <@tbsaunde> one of the focus auto complete foo tests pretty reproducably fails for me, but I just sort of remember that and ignore it
  564. # [19:57] <@tbsaunde> I should probably debug it, but ;efort
  565. # [19:58] <@tbsaunde> anyway unless I think stuff has landed that will substantially break I'll go a week without pulling easily
  566. # [19:58] <@tbsaunde> breka me I mean
  567. # [19:58] <@tbsaunde> err, break me
  568. # [19:59] <@tbsaunde> and then I basically always just rebuild accessible/ and libxul which only takes me a minute or two
  569. # [19:59] <@askalski> tbsaunde, I posted a python script that does some nice job differing results of mochitests
  570. # [19:59] <@tbsaunde> I don't think it possibly took more than 10 minutes on my old core 2 thinkpad
  571. # [20:00] <@tbsaunde> askalski: thats nice, but I've never wanted to do that :)
  572. # [20:01] <@askalski> tbsaunde, your old core 2 thinkpad sound pretty much as my present main machine :D
  573. # [20:03] <@tbsaunde> really? that machine only had 2 gb of ram
  574. # [20:03] <@tbsaunde> I thought you ad an i5 with 6gb?
  575. # [20:03] * Joins: ehsan (ehsan@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
  576. # [20:04] <@askalski> tbsaunde, I bought more
  577. # [20:05] <@tbsaunde> anyway a bit better machine
  578. # [20:06] * Joins: hub_ (hub@21B7B9F2.B87E9213.6E712CE2.IP)
  579. # [20:06] * Quits: @hub (hub@21B7B9F2.B87E9213.6E712CE2.IP) (Input/output error)
  580. # [20:06] <@tbsaunde> any way if your spending a lot of time waiting for compiles I would tend to expect your somehow doing something wrong
  581. # [20:07] * Quits: hub_ (hub@21B7B9F2.B87E9213.6E712CE2.IP) (Quit: Leaving)
  582. # [20:07] * Joins: hub_ (hub@21B7B9F2.B87E9213.6E712CE2.IP)
  583. # [20:07] * hub_ is now known as hub
  584. # [20:10] * Quits: eeejay_mac (eitan@moz-6CE338E8.tukw.qwest.net) (Quit: eeejay_mac)
  585. # [20:11] <@askalski> tbsaunde, around 5-12 minutes, 5 is when I recompile after a patch an 12 is after update
  586. # [20:12] <@tbsaunde> askalski: how are you compiling?\
  587. # [20:13] <@askalski> tbsaunde, --ccache, I guess that's all
  588. # [20:13] <@askalski> tbsaunde, I can send you my .mozbuild
  589. # [20:14] <@askalski> tbsaunde, it's not a scientific data though
  590. # [20:14] <@tbsaunde> askalski: sure, but how do you invoke make?
  591. # [20:14] <@askalski> make -f client.mk
  592. # [20:14] <@askalski> tbsaunde, or more specifically "time make -f client.mk"
  593. # [20:15] <@tbsaunde> askalski: unless you really need a full build for some reason that's dumb
  594. # [20:16] <@askalski> tbsaunde, so how?
  595. # [20:16] <@tbsaunde> askalski: you can generally get away with make -C objdir/accessible/ -<n> && make -C objdir/toolkit/library/ -j<n>
  596. # [20:16] <@askalski> tbsaunde, -<n>?
  597. # [20:16] <@tbsaunde> and of course y objdir/accessible/ as appropriate if you changed other dirs
  598. # [20:17] <@tbsaunde> askalski: -j<n>
  599. # [20:17] <@tbsaunde> read the man page for make
  600. # [20:17] <@askalski> tbsaunde, multithreading, right?
  601. # [20:17] <@askalski> tbsaunde, you just forgot the first "j"
  602. # [20:17] <@askalski> tbsaunde, I am gentoo user, I read the gcc/make man :)
  603. # [20:19] <hub> it is even slower on Mac
  604. # [20:23] <@firebot> tobbi.bugs@googlemail.com cancelled review?(surkov.alexander@gm ail.com) for attachment 595410 on bug 725178.
  605. # [20:23] <@firebot> tobbi.bugs@googlemail.com requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 595463 on bug 725178.
  606. # [20:23] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=725178 nor, --, ---, tobbi.bugs, ASSI, get rid ensureAccessibleTree of common.js
  607. # [20:23] * Joins: WeirdAl (chatzilla@moz-D461843.ask.info)
  608. # [20:24] * Joins: jimm (jmathies@moz-7F164CA1.pn.at.cox.net)
  609. # [20:24] <@tbsaunde> hub: ... sucks to suck :/
  610. # [20:24] <@davidb> hi WeirdAl, jimm
  611. # [20:24] <WeirdAl> hello
  612. # [20:24] * Joins: Mook_as (mook@moz-1FCC0032.activestate.com)
  613. # [20:24] <@davidb> all, we're going to be discussing bug 719561 for a bit - sorry for noise
  614. # [20:24] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=719561 cri, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Updater.exe from Ask Toolbar causes non-English Firefox to hang when viewing Flash videos in YouTube
  615. # [20:24] <@davidb> WeirdAl: are you Eric?
  616. # [20:24] <@tbsaunde> davidb: honestly I'd rather just fix our code to the point random people choosing to use a11y was fine
  617. # [20:25] <@davidb> tbsaunde: yes, but in the meantime.
  618. # [20:25] <WeirdAl> no, he's a product VP. I'm a Mozilla dev, but not familiar with accessibility code
  619. # [20:25] <@davidb> WeirdAl: ok
  620. # [20:25] <@tbsaunde> davidb: true
  621. # [20:25] <WeirdAl> ideally, we'd do both: fix the hang in FF code, and fix Ask code to not do stupid stuff
  622. # [20:26] <@davidb> yep
  623. # [20:26] <jimm> do we support both MSAA and UIA?
  624. # [20:26] <@davidb> jimm: not UIA.
  625. # [20:26] <@davidb> (MSAA + IA2)
  626. # [20:26] <@davidb> WeirdAl: so to catch me up, what do you think is the best short term action?
  627. # [20:26] <jimm> hmm, ok, anyway
  628. # [20:27] <WeirdAl> davidb: first, build this XMSAALib tool and run it against FF to reproduce the hang
  629. # [20:27] * @davidb is swamped
  630. # [20:27] <jimm> do we have any stacks from those hangs?
  631. # [20:28] <WeirdAl> unfortunately not because I haven't had much practice at isolating hangs
  632. # [20:28] * Quits: mike5w3c (MikeS@moz-DAFE1A45.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: mike5w3c)
  633. # [20:28] <jimm> who is :Cww?
  634. # [20:28] <jimm> sounds like he can reproduce
  635. # [20:28] <@davidb> i don't know
  636. # [20:28] <WeirdAl> this can be reproduced w/o the Ask toolbar installed
  637. # [20:28] <khuey> that's Cheng
  638. # [20:28] <khuey> the SUMO guy
  639. # [20:28] <WeirdAl> w/o any Ask code at all
  640. # [20:29] <@davidb> khuey: ty
  641. # [20:30] <jimm> hmm, maybe a regular old plugin hang related to ipc.
  642. # [20:30] <WeirdAl> good news is I do have a symbols build of FF9 with a11y enabled
  643. # [20:30] <khuey> davidb: we can invite him to the channel if it will help
  644. # [20:30] <khuey> or I can track him down in person
  645. # [20:30] <jimm> it would be great if we can get str (on english would be wonderful) and some stacks from a debugger.
  646. # [20:30] <@davidb> khuey: go ahead with both please
  647. # [20:30] <WeirdAl> jimm: str on english is easy, once you build that XMSAALib tool
  648. # [20:30] <khuey> actually, he may be in the product meeting
  649. # [20:31] <khuey> so I'm not going to chase him down just yet
  650. # [20:31] <WeirdAl> I have a standup at 11:30, but I can be back here about 11:50
  651. # [20:32] <@davidb> ok
  652. # [20:34] <@davidb> what is Updater.exe?
  653. # [20:34] <jimm> trying to get this XMSAALib downloaded..
  654. # [20:34] <@davidb> jimm++
  655. # [20:35] <WeirdAl> Updater.exe is a program that's supposed to update our toolbar installation from one version to another, including in IE and Chrome
  656. # [20:35] <WeirdAl> wait
  657. # [20:35] <WeirdAl> unfortunately, I'm not the guy who wrote that code, so I might be misspeaking a little
  658. # [20:36] <@davidb> this sounds… not quite kosher
  659. # [20:36] <WeirdAl> preaching to the choir
  660. # [20:36] <@davidb> :)
  661. # [20:37] <WeirdAl> we're working on a complete rewrite of this platform, where we actually do follow best practices, but it's not ready yet
  662. # [20:37] <@tbsaunde> davidb: what does it really matter to us? its strange, but its still a test case for a bug in our code
  663. # [20:37] <@davidb> WeirdAl: that's good to hear. will you require a11y api?
  664. # [20:37] <@davidb> tbsaunde: depends how you define we.
  665. # [20:37] <@davidb> or us
  666. # [20:38] <@davidb> the immediate problem is all kinds of people hanging.
  667. # [20:38] <WeirdAl> davidb: doubtful, since I'm working on a separate proposal that changes this whole third-party apps discussion.
  668. # [20:38] <@davidb> WeirdAl: good
  669. # [20:39] <@davidb> tbsaunde: there are basically two things I want to do in these situations:
  670. # [20:39] <@davidb> 1. stop the bleeding.
  671. # [20:39] <@davidb> 2. fix the problem.
  672. # [20:39] <@davidb> If 2 is going to take a while… well the metaphor holds.
  673. # [20:39] <WeirdAl> sorry, I have my standup now, back asap
  674. # [20:39] <@davidb> later
  675. # [20:39] <WeirdAl> I'll stay on IRC
  676. # [20:39] * @davidb nods
  677. # [20:39] <@davidb> thanks WeirdAl
  678. # [20:40] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@moz-CDA191A6.c3-0.arl-ubr1.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com)
  679. # [20:40] <aaronlev> davidb, mind if I email bugs until I have more time to use bugzilla again?
  680. # [20:41] <@davidb> aaronlev: i'll take em.
  681. # [20:41] <@davidb> aaronlev: please use my mozilla email
  682. # [20:41] <jimm> hmm, so this test app runs, and it can query fx for various fields info. I'm not seeing any lockups, but maybe there is specific STR here as well.
  683. # [20:42] <@davidb> jimm: is dom.ipc.plugin.enabled true?
  684. # [20:43] <jimm> yep, oh, I didn't try youtube, lemmie try that
  685. # [20:43] <WeirdAl> jimm: yeah, somehow the plugin container is key: kill plugin-container and it comes back to life
  686. # [20:43] <WeirdAl> sorry, I guess I forgot that
  687. # [20:44] <jimm> hmm, so clicking around youtube videos - no problems thus far.
  688. # [20:45] <WeirdAl> a video has to be playing to see the hang
  689. # [20:45] <WeirdAl> Display Object Tree is the button in question to cause it
  690. # [20:45] <jimm> hmm, that is generating an error in the test app.
  691. # [20:46] <WeirdAl> what's the error?
  692. # [20:47] <jimm> something about an xml config file missing
  693. # [20:47] <WeirdAl> try to run the "enum all browser objects" button first
  694. # [20:47] <WeirdAl> and if that fails, it's because XMSAALib can't write to the folder it's running in
  695. # [20:48] <WeirdAl> (the folder you launched it from)
  696. # [20:48] <jimm> ah, it says, "that browser is not running"
  697. # [20:48] <jimm> but fx is running. seems like there's some sort of browser detection problem.
  698. # [20:48] <WeirdAl> I hit the hang by deliberately closing my stock FF and running the symbols-built FF w/ a11y
  699. # [20:49] <@tbsaunde> davidb: yes, I'm saying we should fix hangs
  700. # [20:49] <jimm> just a regular old release build of the latest fx should work right?
  701. # [20:49] <@davidb> WeirdAl: can you attach a debugger and break?
  702. # [20:49] <WeirdAl> oh, damn, I forgot
  703. # [20:49] <@tbsaunde> and maybe take hacky patches if we have to
  704. # [20:49] <WeirdAl> the eng who found the hang said there was a patch to XMSAALib that he had to apply
  705. # [20:50] <@tbsaunde> my point was that I don't really care that my response to somebody saying I'm doing these str is "don't do that!"
  706. # [20:51] <WeirdAl> sorry - maybe I should get the eng in question on IRC
  707. # [20:51] <WeirdAl> For XMSAALib, there's this code change:
  708. # [20:51] <WeirdAl> Define the correct window class in the file MSAALib.cpp line #51 as follows:
  709. # [20:52] <WeirdAl> #define MOZILLA_FIREFOX_APP_WINDOW _T("MozillaWindowClass")
  710. # [20:52] <@davidb> WeirdAl: can you add that to the bug?
  711. # [20:52] <WeirdAl> will do
  712. # [20:52] <@davidb> thanks
  713. # [20:52] <@davidb> jimm: ^
  714. # [20:53] <jimm> heh, from when we removed sub widgets
  715. # [20:53] <jimm> trying
  716. # [20:53] <WeirdAl> ?
  717. # [20:54] <jimm> the change of the window class - we broke a bunch of accessibility apps in 4.0 with that
  718. # [20:54] * @davidb nods solemnly
  719. # [20:54] <jimm> enum is working now
  720. # [20:55] <WeirdAl> ah, so we're not the only ones with obsolete, stupid code ;)
  721. # [20:56] <@davidb> all code over 2 years old is legacy code :)
  722. # [20:57] <WeirdAl> so, enum has to run first, then display object tree
  723. # [20:57] <WeirdAl> it may not happen on your first run while the video is playing, so you may have to try a few times while the video is playing
  724. # [20:57] <jimm> what should I expect to see - a freeze of fx proper, or just something weird with the video playing?
  725. # [20:58] * Quits: a-865 (fmcz@moz-A5D13CA.cable.mindspring.com) (Ping timeout)
  726. # [20:58] <WeirdAl> FF freezes, as does the XMSAALib app
  727. # [20:58] <jimm> ok
  728. # [20:58] <WeirdAl> basically XMSAALib is asking for info that FF doesn't provide and they both deadlock
  729. # [20:59] * Joins: a-865 (fmcz@moz-A5D13CA.cable.mindspring.com)
  730. # [20:59] <WeirdAl> that was the word used, "deadlock"
  731. # [20:59] <jimm> it
  732. # [20:59] <jimm> er..
  733. # [20:59] <jimm> "got it"
  734. # [20:59] <jimm> the plugin crashed
  735. # [21:00] <WeirdAl> we didn't see that crash. we only saw the hang and had to kill plugin-container (which of course reports plugin crash), so we didn't know for sure
  736. # [21:01] <WeirdAl> a plugin crash is most definitely a possibility I thought about, but I had no way to prove.
  737. # [21:01] <WeirdAl> or disprove, for that matter
  738. # [21:02] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 725432 filed by bolterbugz@gmail.com.
  739. # [21:02] <@firebot> Bug 725432 was not found.
  740. # [21:04] * WeirdAl waits
  741. # [21:05] <WeirdAl> davidb: on your earlier question about a debugger: yes, I can
  742. # [21:05] <@davidb> WeirdAl: great, would be good to know the stack
  743. # [21:06] <WeirdAl> dammit
  744. # [21:06] <WeirdAl> this thing's talking to my stock FF
  745. # [21:06] <WeirdAl> stand by one, I have to disconnect
  746. # [21:06] * Quits: WeirdAl (chatzilla@moz-D461843.ask.info) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0/20120129021758])
  747. # [21:07] <jimm> rats, I don't have ms's latest symbols loaded.
  748. # [21:07] <jimm> I have call stacks for all three though.
  749. # [21:07] <jimm> let me restart with new symbols and see if I can get it again, I'll post the stacks to the bug
  750. # [21:07] <@davidb> excellent!
  751. # [21:08] * Joins: WeirdAl (chatzilla@moz-D461843.ask.info)
  752. # [21:08] <WeirdAl> ok, I have FF9 in the debugger with symbols
  753. # [21:09] <WeirdAl> on the hang
  754. # [21:10] <@davidb> WeirdAl: jimm is posting to the bug (his stacks) so maybe compare?
  755. # [21:10] <WeirdAl> uh, I don't know how to get a stack on this one
  756. # [21:11] <WeirdAl> I can't say for sure I'm at the breakpoint of the exact hang
  757. # [21:11] <@davidb> WeirdAl: which debugger? you should be able to force a break
  758. # [21:11] <@davidb> ok
  759. # [21:11] <WeirdAl> VS 2008 Pro, and all I hit was the pause button
  760. # [21:11] <@davidb> i don't recall the UI off hand
  761. # [21:11] <WeirdAl> in the debugger, not the video :)
  762. # [21:11] <@davidb> lol
  763. # [21:12] <WeirdAl> it's labeled "break all"
  764. # [21:12] <@davidb> yeah
  765. # [21:12] <@davidb> what does that stack look like?
  766. # [21:12] <WeirdAl> pastebin coming up
  767. # [21:12] <@davidb> then continue and try again
  768. # [21:12] <WeirdAl> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1480015
  769. # [21:13] <@davidb> yeah this is as i suspected
  770. # [21:13] <WeirdAl> stack looks the same when the next pause appears (or close enough that I can't spot a difference)
  771. # [21:13] <WeirdAl> you have a theory? :)
  772. # [21:14] <@davidb> well, the request is hanging (like was already suggested)
  773. # [21:16] * Quits: ptheriault (ptheriault@moz-4BE034AB.ptr.us.xo.net) (Quit: ptheriault)
  774. # [21:16] <@davidb> WeirdAl: it wouldn't hurt to attach your stack to the bug
  775. # [21:16] <@davidb> describing how you got it
  776. # [21:16] <jimm> posted
  777. # [21:17] <@davidb> ok looking
  778. # [21:17] <@davidb> WeirdAl: nevermind :)
  779. # [21:17] <WeirdAl> oh, you hit the hang?
  780. # [21:17] <@davidb> he did
  781. # [21:18] <WeirdAl> ah
  782. # [21:18] <jimm> both fx and the test app are bound up in blocking ole loops
  783. # [21:19] <WeirdAl> :?
  784. # [21:19] <WeirdAl> OLE?
  785. # [21:19] <jimm> and the container is trying to call NPN_GetValue_NPNVWindowNPObject, and never gets a response
  786. # [21:19] <@davidb> pre-COM :)
  787. # [21:19] <jimm> ole/com, that's out the interprocess stuff communicates
  788. # [21:19] <jimm> out -> how
  789. # [21:19] <jimm> for microsoft's accessibility
  790. # [21:20] <@davidb> jimm: what can we do?
  791. # [21:20] <jimm> a lot of debugging to try and find the cause, and hopfully a work around? :)
  792. # [21:21] * @davidb cries a little
  793. # [21:22] <WeirdAl> well, if it is a blocking loop, might that explain why the plugin container was never killed by FF code?
  794. # [21:22] <jimm> davidb: during a test like this, work XMSAALibTest be communicating directly with the flash process, or trying to go through fx?
  795. # [21:22] <jimm> work -> would
  796. # [21:23] <@davidb> i'm fuzzy on that
  797. # [21:23] <@davidb> for windowless plugins i think we connect the parent and child
  798. # [21:23] <@davidb> but for windowed plugins i think it is direct
  799. # [21:24] <jimm> it's got an IAccessible * that it's invoking - pAcc->accLocation(..)
  800. # [21:25] <jimm> hmm, best guess -
  801. # [21:28] <jimm> XMSAALibTest -> IAccessible (blocks) -> routes through fx (during a DispatchMessage win32 call). About the same time flash tries to send an event to fx (GetValue_NPNVWindowNPObject) which also blocks waiting for the reply. Fx can't reply, plugin-container is blocks, and the test app is blocked.
  802. # [21:28] <@firebot> askalski@mozilla.com requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 595486 on bug 706134.
  803. # [21:28] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=706134 nor, --, ---, askalski, NEW, ARIA listitem shouldn't expose selectable state and pick up aria-selected and aria-checked
  804. # [21:28] <@davidb> jimm: that's amazing
  805. # [21:28] <@davidb> please get that in the bug
  806. # [21:29] <WeirdAl> I think I understand that... :)
  807. # [21:29] <@askalski> Ok, I have submitted the ARIA patch with all Alex's comments included, I am finishing for today. bye everyone!
  808. # [21:29] <@davidb> jimm: why does flash send GetValue_NPNVWindowNPObject?
  809. # [21:29] <@davidb> askalski: splendid! g'night
  810. # [21:30] <WeirdAl> btw, a blacklist will _not_ help
  811. # [21:30] <jimm> ah, so I bet that blocked call in fx is trying to send a windows message to the plugin container, but pc is blocked waiting on fx to reply.
  812. # [21:30] <WeirdAl> blacklist would apply to the extension code, but updater.exe is launched in other ways (in fact, the extension doesn't launch updater at all)
  813. # [21:30] <@davidb> WeirdAl: ok, I probably misunderstood a comment
  814. # [21:30] * Quits: @askalski (akuda@moz-4C8A107E.pool85-48-91.dynamic.orange.es) (Quit: Wychodzi)
  815. # [21:30] <WeirdAl> we do have some other things we can do internally to try and prevent this
  816. # [21:31] <jimm> davidb: it's running it's script internally, and the flash script wants something flash has to go to the browser for.
  817. # [21:31] <@davidb> jimm: ok
  818. # [21:32] <jimm> lemmie write this up more clearly and post to the bug
  819. # [21:32] <@davidb> jimm: the blocking you've described rings a bell, is there a name for this kind of standoff blocking?
  820. # [21:32] <@davidb> ah ok yes sounds good
  821. # [21:33] <Mook_as> fwiw, I'm guessing Ask uses MSAA because that's the closest thing Mozilla supports as a stable ABI.
  822. # [21:33] <WeirdAl> Mook - I'd have to ask my colleagues sitting 30 feet away :)
  823. # [21:34] <jimm> davidb: we should ask the Ask folks to confirm this is the same problem they are seeing, since they may not be the same.
  824. # [21:34] <Mook_as> that's what #extdev promoted for a while, anyway, given that everything else kept breaking.
  825. # [21:34] <WeirdAl> if you'll give me a few minutes, I can get one of the more relevant engineers on IRC
  826. # [21:34] <jimm> cool
  827. # [21:34] <jimm> I'd hate to be posting all of this in the wrong bug!
  828. # [21:35] * @davidb nods
  829. # [21:35] <jimm> WeirdAl: you work for Ask?
  830. # [21:36] <WeirdAl> yes, and my main job is maintenance.
  831. # [21:37] <WeirdAl> of our code
  832. # [21:37] * Quits: nhirata (nhirata.bu@moz-BBE3ABD.mv.mozilla.com) (Quit: nhirata)
  833. # [21:37] <jimm> WeirdAl: ah sweet, that helps!
  834. # [21:37] * Joins: ptheriault (ptheriault@moz-4BE034AB.ptr.us.xo.net)
  835. # [21:37] * Joins: levantineb (chatzilla@moz-D461843.ask.info)
  836. # [21:38] <levantineb> Hi Brian here to talk about accessibility code
  837. # [21:38] <WeirdAl> Brian's one of our engineers too
  838. # [21:38] <@davidb> welcome levantineb!
  839. # [21:38] <levantineb> thanks
  840. # [21:39] <@davidb> levantineb: jimm wants to make sure he is seeing the same problem
  841. # [21:39] <@davidb> he posted stacks
  842. # [21:39] <@davidb> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=595482
  843. # [21:39] * @davidb steps aside
  844. # [21:40] <jimm> we would like to try and confirm the hang we've reproduced with this test app is the same you all are seeing with your Ask software.
  845. # [21:40] <levantineb> Got it. Checking...
  846. # [21:42] <levantineb> Similar. we're actually calling to get the object name before we try for location.
  847. # [21:43] <jimm> ok, the actual IAccessible call isn't really important
  848. # [21:43] <jimm> is ask bound up in the same ole code?
  849. # [21:43] <levantineb> Agreed.
  850. # [21:44] <levantineb> I can't tell what code FF is in.
  851. # [21:44] <levantineb> The call is in the call HRESULT hr = pChild->get_accName(varChild, &bstrValue);
  852. # [21:45] <jimm> hmm, so you can attach to both firefox.exe and our plugin-container.exe but first you would need to configure access to our symbol server.
  853. # [21:45] <WeirdAl> I have the symbols build, Brian doesn't. I'm at the breakpoint I mentioned earlier, http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1480015
  854. # [21:45] <jimm> are you in visual studio or windbg?
  855. # [21:45] <WeirdAl> oh, but I'm using that MSAA tool
  856. # [21:45] * Joins: nhirata (nhirata.bu@moz-BBE3ABD.mv.mozilla.com)
  857. # [21:46] <jimm> mozilla symbol server setup FAQ: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Using_the_Mozilla_symbol_server
  858. # [21:46] <jimm> WeirdAl: looking..
  859. # [21:47] <jimm> yep, same here for the fx process
  860. # [21:48] <WeirdAl> jimm: again, that stack wasn't with our app running, just MSAA, but Brian believes that it fundamentally is the same bug
  861. # [21:48] <jimm> ok
  862. # [21:49] <levantineb> Both client programs are traversing the MSAA tree when the hang occurs.
  863. # [21:55] <jimm> levantineb: curious, which client problems are you referring to?
  864. # [21:55] <jimm> problems -> programs
  865. # [21:56] <levantineb> our own app and MSAALibTest
  866. # [21:56] <jimm> ah, ok
  867. # [21:56] <WeirdAl> I need to step out for lunch for about fifteen minutes... back asap
  868. # [21:57] <jimm> so MSAALibTest is querying. what is at the top of your program's stack?
  869. # [21:57] <jimm> levantineb: ^
  870. # [21:58] <levantineb> In both cases (us and MSAALibTest) we're nested down about 15 or 16 levels - enumerating children.
  871. # [21:58] <jimm> levantineb: what's the last call on your stack? is it in Win system code, or in your code doing something else?
  872. # [21:59] <jimm> (can you post a stack to to pastebin maybe?)
  873. # [21:59] <jimm> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/
  874. # [22:02] <levantineb> It'll take me awhile to do this. MSAA crashes because it always traverses the entire tree. Our code is conditional so I'll need to set myself up to make the hang happen. It may take a few minutes.
  875. # [22:03] <levantineb> I can tell you this, it will hang in a COM call on the IAccessible object.
  876. # [22:09] * Quits: levantineb (chatzilla@moz-D461843.ask.info) (Ping timeout)
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  878. # [22:10] <levantineb> stack trace is posted
  879. # [22:11] <levantineb> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1480065
  880. # [22:13] * @davidb nudges jimm
  881. # [22:13] * @davidb knows he's busy though
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  884. # [22:18] <WeirdAl> davidb: given that this hang did not happen in FF8, would an hg bisect session be useful?
  885. # [22:19] <jimm> sorry, talos regression on inblound I had to deal with
  886. # [22:19] <@davidb> jimm: yeah saw that
  887. # [22:20] <jimm> WeirdAl: really? yes definitely.
  888. # [22:21] <jimm> that would rule a lot of stuff out if it were true
  889. # [22:21] * WeirdAl sighs - it takes a loooooong time to build FF
  890. # [22:21] <jimm> I do it every day, countless times!
  891. # [22:21] <jimm> :)
  892. # [22:21] <@davidb> max your hardware
  893. # [22:21] <WeirdAl> building normally isn't part of my job, so I don't have one of those fancy SSD's ;)
  894. # [22:22] <jimm> WeirdAl: maybe just use nightlies to nail down a particular patch range?
  895. # [22:22] <@davidb> good idea
  896. # [22:22] <jimm> I'd test a few times on ff8 though, I have a feeling you'll get it there too.
  897. # [22:22] <WeirdAl> that might be better, if I can keep the installation from taking over my settings and autoupdating to FF10
  898. # [22:22] <jimm> WeirdAl: just use the zips
  899. # [22:22] <WeirdAl> zip's don't auto-update?
  900. # [22:23] <jimm> never had that problem while regression testing
  901. # [22:24] <WeirdAl> nuts, my local FF8 build didn't have a11y on either
  902. # [22:34] <WeirdAl> hm, I can't find zips of FF8 release... looks like when it goes to beta, they turn off zip building
  903. # [22:38] * WeirdAl kicks off his FF8 acc build
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  905. # [22:41] <@davidb> i have to go AFK for 3.5 hours.
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  919. # [23:42] <jimm> WeirdAl: so this is related to our ipc mechanism. we'll have to search for a work around of some sort.
  920. # [23:43] <WeirdAl> yeah. Is it worth me bisecting, or no?
  921. # [23:44] <WeirdAl> also, do you believe Mozilla has enough to reproduce this bug without Ask involved?
  922. # [23:44] <jimm> bisecting will likely take you back to the 3.7 release
  923. # [23:44] <WeirdAl> Uh, I don't remember there being a 3.7 release
  924. # [23:44] <jimm> yeah, we have that test app and a good understanding of what's going on.
  925. # [23:45] <jimm> it was a major minor update to the previous release
  926. # [23:45] <jimm> :)
  927. # [23:46] <jimm> http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/3.6.3plugin1/releasenotes/
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  930. # Session Close: Thu Feb 09 00:00:00 2012

The end :)