/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2012-02-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Feb 17 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  5. # [00:40] <@eeejay> davidb, http://monotonous.org/files/t.webm
  6. # [00:40] <@eeejay> davidb, http://monotonous.org/files/t.webm
  7. # [00:41] <davidb> \o/
  8. # [00:41] <@eeejay> davidb, a wip. i will add another segment showing generally how android a11y works
  9. # [00:41] <@eeejay> davidb, should i add some slides and explain the whole approach?
  10. # [00:42] <@eeejay> it is kind of underwhelming
  11. # [00:43] <davidb> this is decent
  12. # [00:44] <davidb> I'll leave slides/explanation up to you.
  13. # [00:47] <davidb> heh. sausagefests
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  17. # [01:23] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: what is that movie supposed to be?
  18. # [01:24] <@eeejay> it is me navigating twitter with android
  19. # [01:24] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, should be self-explanatory
  20. # [01:25] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: ok, I got that it was android on a web page, but it wasn't really clear that was fenic you where using
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  25. # [01:39] <davidb> I'm not great with the eyes free virtual dpad yet.
  26. # [01:45] <@hub> that awesome
  27. # [01:50] * Jamie groans
  28. # [01:50] <Jamie> there shouldn't even be a need for that damned thing
  29. # [01:51] <Jamie> Heh. I'm sorry. I can't help it. Thinking about Android a11y just makes me angry and bitter.
  30. # [01:54] <Jamie> I'm not normally one to slam someone for trying, but I dislike half-baked attempts that go mainstream, are claimed as acceptable, don't learn anything from past mistakes and totally fragment all hope for polished a11y on for the entire platform.
  31. # [01:58] <Jamie> davidb: Hey, is there any way for the public ot see telemetry stats? no huge need, just curious
  32. # [02:00] <davidb> yep. hard to help right now. on mobile.
  33. # [02:00] <Jamie> no problem
  34. # [02:01] <davidb> search mozilla metrics pentaho. needs a11y improvements.
  35. # [02:02] * davidb rests phone to charge
  36. # [02:04] <Jamie> ah, not accessible to public. no matter./
  37. # [02:06] <davidb> oh
  38. # [02:10] <Jamie> arrg. I really wish I had the time to get involved in some of the w3c groups
  39. # [02:20] <@hub> Jamie: your grief is about Android and its a11y support?
  40. # [02:21] <@hub> we should really make sure b2g is accessible
  41. # [02:31] <davidb> yes.
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  44. # [02:47] <@eeejay> Jamie, thinking about android a11y makes me think how great we could be just by not sucking
  45. # [02:53] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  46. # [02:53] <davidb_> tbsaunde: ping (backchannel)
  47. # [02:54] <davidb_> eeejay: lol
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  50. # [02:57] <davidb_> hi surkov
  51. # [02:57] <@surkov> hi, davidb_
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  56. # [03:22] <@firebot> New Core - Keyboard: Navigation bug 728103 filed by masayuki@d-toybox.com.
  57. # [03:22] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=728103 nor, --, ---, masayuki, NEW, Shouldn't we change modifier for HTML accesskey from Control to Control + Option
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  60. # [03:41] <Jamie> eeejay: it's inherently "bad", even if it works well, because it isn't a unified experience
  61. # [03:42] <Jamie> eeejay: Mozilla has no choice, I get that. That doesn't mean that good Gecko a11y on Android makes Android a more accessible platform
  62. # [03:42] <Jamie> Mozilla is having to fragment a11y on Android even further than it is already fragmented
  63. # [03:42] <Jamie> entirely because Android gave Mozilla no choice
  64. # [03:44] <Jamie> It'd be like saying Firevox is the correct solution for Windows accessibility of Firefox. We both know that isn't true.
  65. # [03:46] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: I'm not sure I see what we're doing at this point that makes anything worse
  66. # [03:47] <Jamie> tbsaunde: Mm, misphrase on my part. It's not making anything worse. It's just continuing an already bad trend.
  67. # [03:48] <Jamie> tbsaunde: and I must emphasise: I'm not saying this has anything to do with Mozilla. It's entirely the fault of Android.
  68. # [03:48] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: which trend is that?
  69. # [03:48] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: yeah, I got that part
  70. # [03:50] <Jamie> tbsaunde: Well, Gecko isn't quite as bad here; it's not doing the self voicing thing. However, it still has to implement its own touch screen access and navigation
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  73. # [03:51] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: true
  74. # [03:51] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: on the other hand we do caret nav mode on desktop
  75. # [03:52] <Jamie> tbsaunde: This leads to a fragmented user experience, potentially. Even if everyone does the same thing, that's a lot of pointless code duplication
  76. # [03:52] <@tbsaunde> and firefox handles navigation for non-screen reader users
  77. # [03:53] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: sure, but that is true for sighted users naviagting different apps ui's too
  78. # [03:53] <Jamie> tbsaunde: that's true. however, screen reader gestures are somewhat more specialised than that.
  79. # [03:54] <Jamie> tbsaunde: Mm, true, but most apps try to keep a certain degree of consistency with the native UI
  80. # [03:55] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: true
  81. # [03:55] <Jamie> tbsaunde: to use another example, doing it this way makes it very difficult for, say, braille display access
  82. # [03:55] <Jamie> tbsaunde: Gecko would then have to support braille display commands directly
  83. # [03:55] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: I think my point is that the virtual buffer setup in windows screen readers is kind of a weird way to organize things
  84. # [03:56] <Jamie> tbsaunde: It is
  85. # [03:56] <Jamie> but at least the exposure from the browser can be standardised using, say, IA2
  86. # [03:56] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: yeah, braille on android is I suspect fubard but I don't really know anything about it
  87. # [03:57] <davidb> this is so much better than twitter for conversations.
  88. # [03:57] <@tbsaunde> I'm not sure how much it matters though since using a brailleddisplay with a pone sounds ultra anoying
  89. # [03:57] <Jamie> tbsaunde: virtual buffers only really exist for two reasons: 1. out-of-process calls are slow and there's no collections API in IA2. 2. we believe that we render things in a better, more reliable form than browser caret navigation
  90. # [03:58] <@tbsaunde> davidb: haha
  91. # [03:58] <Jamie> tbsaunde: android has no support for braille displays, so right now, it's academic
  92. # [03:58] <Jamie> Using a braille display with an iPhone is actually surprisingly nice
  93. # [03:58] <davidb> tbsaunde: see what i did there
  94. # [03:59] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I did ;)
  95. # [03:59] <Jamie> tbsaunde: In short, virtual buffers are a big nasty hack necessary to solve a problem that no one has the resources to solve properly :)
  96. # [04:00] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: I'm not sure I see how #1 is a reason for virtual buffers, but with the current state of caret naviagtion in firefox I'd probably agree with #2 but that's because we should fix it
  97. # [04:00] <Jamie> tbsaunde: even if Gecko fixed it, the other browsers probably wouldn't
  98. # [04:00] <Jamie> and then we'd end up with an inconsistent UX
  99. # [04:00] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: true
  100. # [04:00] <Jamie> tbsaunde: 1 is a reason because of quick navigation and the like
  101. # [04:01] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: but couldn't you dll inject something that just changes the focus
  102. # [04:01] <Jamie> tbsaunde: example: I press a key to jump to the next link. with IA2, we'd have to walk through every element to find the next link
  103. # [04:02] <Jamie> tbsaunde: If that were the only factor, you're right. except there's also: you have a paragraph consisting of lots of text interspursed with 100 links
  104. # [04:02] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: I imagine caret nav in webkit doesn't work on windows? I understand it works fairly well on linux
  105. # [04:02] <Jamie> tbsaunde: now, we want ot read that paragraph as one block. we have to crawl through that paragraph bit by bit, walking through the objects, retrieving data
  106. # [04:02] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: ok
  107. # [04:02] <Jamie> remember, each fetch of an object is multiple cross-process calls
  108. # [04:03] <Jamie> tbsaunde: I'm not sure, because WebKit a11y in windows is so broken that it's hardly worth bothering with
  109. # [04:03] <Jamie> and I'm not being overly negative here
  110. # [04:03] <Jamie> it's simple fact :)
  111. # [04:03] <Jamie> the only place it really works is iTunes and I'm not sure you can enable caret nav in iTunes, so I can't test it
  112. # [04:04] * Jamie still thinks b2g has really exciting a11y potential
  113. # [04:04] <davidb> Jamie: what about chrome a11y?
  114. # [04:04] <Jamie> davidb: not sure if chrome has caret nav/whether it uses webkit caret nav
  115. # [04:05] <Jamie> their a11y implementation is entirely separate though
  116. # [04:05] <davidb> they probably use webkit caret
  117. # [04:05] <davidb> how is their a11y impl coming along?
  118. # [04:05] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: yeah, I gues a better way to put it is couldn't you do all the other stuff you want to do with an injected dll but not have a virtual buffer?
  119. # [04:05] <Jamie> tbsaunde: forgetting about caret nav? probably, yes
  120. # [04:06] <Jamie> tbsaunde: although it's worth noting that communicating objects cross-process is actually really damned hard
  121. # [04:06] <Jamie> tbsaunde: so if it didn't involve moving focus (and NVDA has a separate review cursor, so this is a valid use case), it'd be very hard
  122. # [04:08] <Jamie> tbsaunde: using the paragraph with 50 links example, I'm still not sure how we'd do that. communicating raw speech stuff back to the screen reader isn't an option, so you'd have to try to communicate object "data"
  123. # [04:09] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: why not?
  124. # [04:09] <Jamie> we'd probably end up using something similar to our virtual buffer code, just without the pre-rendering
  125. # [04:09] <Jamie> tbsaunde: two reasons: 1. we'd have to duplicate the presentation logic between screen reader and in-process dll. 2. that doesn't cover braille
  126. # [04:12] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: can't you link the same code into two things? and couldn't you do something similar like sending stuff directly as braille
  127. # [04:14] <davidb> Jamie: what is foliot talking about escalating?
  128. # [04:16] <davidb> oh never mind actually
  129. # [04:16] <davidb> catch y'all later
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  131. # [04:22] <Jamie> tbsaunde: NVDA is written in Python. Our in-proc code is written in C++
  132. # [04:22] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: oic, that would make it a little more tricky
  133. # [04:22] <Jamie> :)
  134. # [04:23] <Jamie> I guess the only way would be to rewrite the presentation code in C++. eeeewwwww.
  135. # [04:23] <@tbsaunde> unless you called out to c++ from python
  136. # [04:23] <Jamie> hmm?
  137. # [04:23] <@tbsaunde> I sort of hate saying it, but honestly I dislike dynically typed langauages enough I sort of prefer C++ sometimes
  138. # [04:24] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: same thing you said, so nvm
  139. # [04:24] <Jamie> we don't really abuse dynamic typing much, but it's not just the dynamic typing that makes Python easier
  140. # [04:25] <Jamie> there's just a lot less stuff to worry about
  141. # [04:25] <Jamie> With Python, I don't tend to have to think about the language much; I think mroe algorithmically. With C++, I have to worry about how I code it
  142. # [04:26] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: its not so much the abuse of dynamic typeing as not having a compiler to catch stupid crap for me
  143. # [04:26] <Jamie> NVDA's architecture is also a bit insane in terms of object orientation. We mutate classes after construction in certain cases to allow for overriding of specific behaviour
  144. # [04:27] <Jamie> tbsaunde: oh, sure. there are times when I miss compilers :)
  145. # [04:27] <Jamie> the number of times I've had to restart NVDA 4 or 5 times because I am having a bad coding day
  146. # [04:27] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: you mena change the methods of a class at runtime by fiddling with the byte code?
  147. # [04:27] <Jamie> no
  148. # [04:28] <Jamie> in brief, because we have to deal with so many different APIs, NVDA abstracts all accessibles as NVDAObjects. there are IAccessible NVDAObjects, UIA NVDAObjects, Java NVDAObjects, etc.
  149. # [04:28] <@tbsaunde> oic
  150. # [04:29] <Jamie> so let's say we're dealing with Gecko. we get an IAccessible NVDAObject and that's all fine. so we construct it so that we can query properties on the object; e.g. role, states, name, etc.
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  152. # [04:30] <Jamie> then we have another level which checks for "overlay" classes. so we query the windowClassName of our NVDAObject (obj.windowClassName) and we see that it's MozillaWindowClass. then we see that it has ROLE_DOCUMENT, so we mutate the instance so that the mozilla.Document class is now part of the inheritance
  153. # [04:30] <@tbsaunde> fun
  154. # [04:31] <Jamie> there are also abstract behaviors such as Dialog. these are mix-in classes which can be applied to any API class. so they can be added as overlays as well
  155. # [04:31] <Jamie> If we didn't do it this way, we'd have to talk raw APIs a lot more and we'd have to have a lot more hard-coded classes; e.g. IAccessibleDialog, UIADialog, etc. This way, it's all handled without code duplication
  156. # [04:32] <Jamie> Also, app specific code and global plugins are given the chance ot add their own overlays, so users can customise object behaviour
  157. # [04:32] <Jamie> this is probably a hell of a lot more than you really wanted to know :)
  158. # [04:33] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: its fine, its kind of interesting
  159. # [04:34] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
  160. # [04:47] <Jamie> urg, I just tried to use ed commands in a wysiwyg editor
  161. # [04:55] <@tbsaunde> haha
  162. # [04:56] <@tbsaunde> I haven't used one of those in a long time
  163. # [05:24] <Jamie> ouch. lots of firefox crashes this morning
  164. # [05:28] <Jamie> ah, bug 714579
  165. # [05:28] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=714579 cri, --, mozilla13, surkov.alexander, REOP, crash nsINode::OwnerDoc
  166. # [05:29] <Jamie> this is the only problem with using nightlies as my main browser :)
  167. # [05:29] <@surkov> yeah, I hope you don't get them too often
  168. # [05:29] <@surkov> Jamie: don't you check defunct state before you operate on object?
  169. # [05:30] <@surkov> or would you like object disconnected error when you call the method on defunct object?
  170. # [05:30] <@surkov> i.e. bug 539683
  171. # [05:30] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=539683 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, defunct object methods should return CO_E_OBJECTNOTCONNECTED
  172. # [05:31] <Jamie> surkov: we don't check defunct state, no, but even if we did, there's still a possible race condition; i.e. we check defunct, it isn't, but then it goes defunct just as we call accName or similar
  173. # [05:32] <Jamie> it's also a major perf hit
  174. # [05:32] <@surkov> sure
  175. # [05:33] <Jamie> I don't really care whether you throw an error or not
  176. # [05:33] <@surkov> Jamie: did you said the object goes defunct when you call accName?
  177. # [05:33] <Jamie> well, NVDA doesn't care
  178. # [05:33] <Jamie> surkov: mm, is this related to the crash?
  179. # [05:33] <@surkov> yes
  180. # [05:34] <@surkov> we didn't check defunct either
  181. # [05:34] <Jamie> I'm not sure what triggers the crash to be honest
  182. # [05:34] <@surkov> that bug 539683 is going to fix all problems, but until it's fixed from time to time we introduce new ones
  183. # [05:34] * Jamie nods
  184. # [05:35] <@surkov> null-check makes a crash
  185. # [05:35] <Jamie> surkov: I mean taht checking defunct state on our side wouldn't help because of race conditions
  186. # [05:35] <@surkov> what is a race conditions?
  187. # [05:36] <Jamie> surkov: well, in order for us to avoid this, we'd have ot check for defunct state before every call we make
  188. # [05:36] * @tbsaunde tries to figure out how to explain race conditions gives up and looks at wikipedia
  189. # [05:37] <Jamie> surkov: scenario: 1. NVDA wants to speak an object, so it wants name, role, states and value.
  190. # [05:37] <Jamie> surkov: 2. NVDA calls states to check for defunct state.
  191. # [05:37] <Jamie> surkov: 3. object goes defunct after we call states
  192. # [05:37] <Jamie> surkov: 4. NVDA calls accName
  193. # [05:37] <Jamie> crash
  194. # [05:37] <Jamie> (accName is just an example; I don't know which one is causing the crash)
  195. # [05:38] <@surkov> Jamie: technically it shouldn't go defunct if call a method
  196. # [05:38] <@surkov> do you observe this behavior?
  197. # [05:38] <Jamie> no, I'm just pointing out that it wouldn't fix the problem
  198. # [05:38] <Jamie> surkov: an object can go defunct at any time, no?
  199. # [05:38] <@surkov> but object should never go defunct when you call a method
  200. # [05:38] <@surkov> no
  201. # [05:38] <Jamie> so when can they go defunct?
  202. # [05:38] <@surkov> if that happens then this is something we should address I think
  203. # [05:39] <@surkov> we are running loop from time to time and invalidate our tree, at this point object can go defunct
  204. # [05:39] <@tbsaunde> surkov: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_condition\#Computing
  205. # [05:40] <@surkov> basically from your presspective object goes defunct after you received hide event
  206. # [05:40] <Jamie> surkov: there can still be a few ms between when we call states and when we call, say, name
  207. # [05:40] <Jamie> surkov: what if your loop invalidates the object between those two calls?
  208. # [05:40] <@surkov> you do that async?
  209. # [05:40] <@surkov> or in own process?
  210. # [05:40] <Jamie> everything is async cross-process
  211. # [05:40] <@surkov> ok
  212. # [05:41] <@surkov> you're right then
  213. # [05:41] <Jamie> sorry, I should have pointed that out in the first place :)
  214. # [05:41] <@surkov> I should have remember that :)
  215. # [05:41] <Jamie> surkov: I think this is our out-proc code, not in-proc. we don't check defunct in-proc either, though
  216. # [05:42] <Jamie> calling states before every call is fairly expensive
  217. # [05:42] <@surkov> agree
  218. # [05:42] <@surkov> we should handle that on our side
  219. # [05:43] <Jamie> surkov: yup, definitely our out-proc code, since VBufBackend_gecko_ia2.dll isn't in the stack trace
  220. # [05:43] <@surkov> I see
  221. # [05:43] <Jamie> I'd say we're probably querying the old object just after it loses focus (before we get the new focus event)
  222. # [05:46] <@tbsaunde> surkov: so, do you want to land what you have for bug 714579 or do you want to wait for new stlye api
  223. # [05:46] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=714579 cri, --, mozilla13, surkov.alexander, REOP, crash nsINode::OwnerDoc
  224. # [05:47] <@surkov> tbsaunde: we might need to wait too long :)
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  233. # [07:04] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 728127 filed by surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  234. # [07:04] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=728127 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, use GetComputedStyle carefully
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  236. # [07:57] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 694818 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  237. # [07:57] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 694818 to DUPLICATE of bug 714579.
  238. # [07:57] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=694818 cri, --, ---, nobody, RESO DUPLICATE, crash mozilla::a11y::FocusManager::IsFocused
  239. # [07:57] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=714579 cri, --, mozilla13, surkov.alexander, REOP, crash nsINode::OwnerDoc
  240. # [08:11] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 634200 from ASSIGNED to RESOLVED.
  241. # [08:11] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 634200 to WORKSFORME.
  242. # [08:11] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=634200 cri, --, ---, surkov.alexander, RESO WORKSFORME, crash [@ nsIFrame::GetStyleVisibility() ]
  243. # [08:15] * Quits: jhk (jiggy@8E6C34C1.A3F9767A.1C37C358.IP) (Connection reset by peer)
  244. # [08:16] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 646355 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  245. # [08:16] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 646355 to WORKSFORME.
  246. # [08:16] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=646355 cri, --, ---, nobody, RESO WORKSFORME, crash [@ @0x0 | nsAccessibleWrap::UpdateSystemCaret()]
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  261. # [12:26] <@askalski> morning!
  262. # [12:29] * Joins: jhk (jiggy@8E6C34C1.A3F9767A.1C37C358.IP)
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  265. # [12:56] <@askalski> surkov, how to appy a patch? I get abort: patch bug727163-0.patch not in series
  266. # [12:56] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727163 nor, --, ---, nfroyd, ASSI, fix compiler warnings in accessible/
  267. # [12:56] <@surkov> askalski: you should do hg qimport patchname; hg qpush
  268. # [12:57] <@askalski> surkov, ok, thanks
  269. # [12:57] <@surkov> yw
  270. # [13:10] <@askalski> surkov, how to rebuild just a11y ? and can I pass "warnings as errors" to make?
  271. # [13:11] <@askalski> MarcoZ, hi
  272. # [13:11] <@surkov> askalski: cd objdir/accessible; make; cd ../toolkit/library; make
  273. # [13:11] <@askalski> surkov, thanks
  274. # [13:11] <@askalski> surkov, would make -Werror do the trick?
  275. # [13:12] <@MarcoZ> Hi askalski!
  276. # [13:12] <@MarcoZ> Hi surkov!
  277. # [13:18] <@askalski> MarcoZ, do you know the way
  278. # [13:18] <@askalski> MarcoZ, to add some compiler flags to a single build or to Makefile
  279. # [13:19] <@askalski> I want to build a11y with -Werror flag
  280. # [13:20] <@MarcoZ> askalski: Sorry, not my field of expertise. Ask in #developers maybe?
  281. # [13:20] <@MarcoZ> askalski: There are MOZCONFIG options to add compiler options IIRC. Look on MDC in the "Configuring build options" sections.
  282. # [13:22] * Quits: ehsan (ehsan@F0B20A8D.8458880F.57F33CED.IP) (Input/output error)
  283. # [13:27] <@surkov> hi, MarcoZ
  284. # [13:50] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@C092FEB2.1C233438.79933D60.IP) (Quit: Leaving...)
  285. # [14:23] * Quits: @jprmc (jprmc@8F761026.B5EF4AF6.E96CA9D8.IP) (Ping timeout)
  286. # [14:25] <@askalski> surkov, I was thinking about taking a break from text algoritms, and doing 606080
  287. # [14:26] <@askalski> surkov, I am looking for someone experienced to tell me "yeah, go with range tree, write it"
  288. # [14:26] <@surkov> askalski: sure
  289. # [14:26] <@askalski> surkov, cause honestly, it might not necessairly do the improvement
  290. # [14:26] <@surkov> askalski: ping neil (neil@httl.net)
  291. # [14:26] <@askalski> surkov, but until I try I never know
  292. # [14:26] <@surkov> that's all about investigations
  293. # [14:27] <@surkov> sometimes you should just try, if theory says it's faster then it's worth to try and see how it works in real life
  294. # [14:28] <@surkov> for 32bit unique ids I think you need some help with interfaces to measure it
  295. # [14:28] * Quits: jhk (jiggy@8E6C34C1.A3F9767A.1C37C358.IP) (Connection reset by peer)
  296. # [14:28] <@askalski> surkov, ok, so I should write to Neil an e-mail, right?
  297. # [14:28] <@surkov> askalski: just cc him and ask for advice
  298. # [14:29] <@askalski> cc in bug, right?
  299. # [14:29] <@surkov> yes
  300. # [14:31] <@askalski> ok
  301. # [14:32] * Joins: ehsan (ehsan@F0B20A8D.8458880F.57F33CED.IP)
  302. # [14:32] <@tbsaunde> surkov: askalski mkae -C foo/bar/baz is a bit nicer than cd foo/bar/baz/ && mkae fwiw
  303. # [14:33] <@tbsaunde> askalski: CFLAGS="blah" make might work or you could just redirect stdout and see if gcc spews any warnings ;)
  304. # [14:33] <@surkov> tbsaunde: ok
  305. # [14:36] <@askalski> tbsaunde, CFLAGS works, but Werror=something was defined, so another Werror is ignored. and routing cstdout doesn't work :(
  306. # [14:36] <@askalski> tried these two
  307. # [14:37] <@tbsaunde> askalski: what is the problem with redirecting stdout? that is the general way look for warnings
  308. # [14:37] <@askalski> tbsaunde, do you know how to route stderr?
  309. # [14:38] * Joins: jprmc (jprmc@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
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  311. # [14:40] <@tbsaunde> askalski: same way usually do, make >/dev/null
  312. # [14:40] * Quits: ehsan (ehsan@F0B20A8D.8458880F.57F33CED.IP) (Input/output error)
  313. # [14:40] <@tbsaunde> askalski: why do you need to change stderr? what's wrong with it still going to the terminal?
  314. # [14:42] <@askalski> tbsaunde, I don't know. I do make clean && make | grep 'warning' and I get all the "make[3] ..." stuff
  315. # [14:43] <@tbsaunde> askalski: I'm not sure why, but that is different from what I am suggesting doing so...
  316. # [14:44] <@askalski> ha!
  317. # [14:44] <@askalski> ha! make 2>&1 1> /dev/null | grep 'warning' that's the magic I was looking for
  318. # [14:46] <@askalski> tbsaunde, ah, you mean that if I redirect stdout all I am left with are warnings
  319. # [14:46] <@askalski> neat
  320. # [14:46] <@askalski> I didn't get you
  321. # [14:46] <@askalski> I was looking for warnings in output...
  322. # [14:46] <@tbsaunde> askalski: uh, no, I'm pretty sure that doesn't do what you want because you end up redirecting both stdout and stderr to /dev/null
  323. # [14:47] <@askalski> tbsaunde, but it does return the warnings from grep
  324. # [14:47] <@tbsaunde> askalski: weird, I'm not sure why
  325. # [14:48] <@tbsaunde> I don't understand redirection well enough to completely get why that works
  326. # [14:49] <@tbsaunde> but seriously make > /dev/null is what I generally use and it works fiarly well
  327. # [14:51] <@askalski> tbsaunde, thanks, it's good to get the tools right
  328. # [14:52] <@askalski> tbsaunde, my apologies for the lags in my answer, I thought I got enlighted on text algorithms, and I was looking for a counterexample
  329. # [14:52] <@askalski> guess I wont get nobel prize this year
  330. # [14:53] * @askalski goes for lunch
  331. # [14:53] * Joins: davidb (davidb@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
  332. # [14:53] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo davidb davidb
  333. # [15:04] <@MarcoZ> Hi davidb, tbsaunde!
  334. # [15:04] <@davidb> hi MarcoZ! all!
  335. # [15:10] <@davidb> ok surkov you're out windows 8 a11y lead https://wiki.mozilla.org/Windows8
  336. # [15:11] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
  337. # [15:11] <@surkov> davidb: really out?
  338. # [15:11] <@surkov> lost in translation
  339. # [15:12] <@davidb> typo
  340. # [15:12] <@davidb> sorry
  341. # [15:12] <@davidb> "our"
  342. # [15:12] <@davidb> :)
  343. # [15:12] <@surkov> :)
  344. # [15:14] <@askalski> hi davidb !
  345. # [15:14] <@davidb> hi askalski!
  346. # [15:15] <@firebot> bolterbugz@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 626642 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  347. # [15:16] <@firebot> bolterbugz@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 626642 to INCOMPLETE.
  348. # [15:16] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=626642 nor, --, ---, nobody, RESO INCOMPLETE, Map aria-hidden true/false to specific events
  349. # [15:18] <@davidb> surkov: are you worried a non-flushing version would be too incorrect or something (bug 714579)?
  350. # [15:18] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=714579 cri, --, mozilla13, surkov.alexander, REOP, crash nsINode::OwnerDoc
  351. # [15:19] <@surkov> davidb: no more incorrect than our accessible tree :)
  352. # [15:19] <@davidb> that's true
  353. # [15:19] <@davidb> and a good argument not to flush
  354. # [15:19] <@surkov> we don't guarantee they get updated information, we should show them what user sees on screen
  355. # [15:19] <@davidb> right
  356. # [15:19] <@davidb> ok
  357. # [15:20] <@davidb> surkov: why doesn't the non-flushing version live in layout>?
  358. # [15:20] <@surkov> if frame doesn't know about new styles then I bet user doesn't see that too
  359. # [15:20] <@davidb> actually -- i need to read the patch closely
  360. # [15:20] <@surkov> davidb: it's not done I guess yet
  361. # [15:21] <@surkov> I think inside layout they don't need string representation of styles, they just use styles
  362. # [15:21] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@717ECBD0.6465CCD9.79933D60.IP)
  363. # [15:21] <@surkov> os I filed bug to add this capability, hope somebody will come with a fix
  364. # [15:22] <@davidb> I wonder if anyone else gets bitten by this flush
  365. # [15:24] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I'd tend doubt that many people outside of layout have a reason to want the information
  366. # [15:24] <@davidb> tbsaunde: I'm curious about the callers of getcomputedstyle.
  367. # [15:24] <@tbsaunde> davidb: well, you can grep ;)
  368. # [15:25] <@davidb> indeed
  369. # [15:25] <@davidb> want to get through bug mail first :)
  370. # [15:25] <@davidb> dxr is useful when it works
  371. # [15:25] <@askalski> can someone tell me what different boxes in patch review mean?
  372. # [15:25] <@davidb> (our static analysis charged code search)
  373. # [15:25] <@davidb> askalski: during "review"
  374. # [15:25] <@davidb> ?
  375. # [15:26] <@askalski> davidb, Alex added me to review a patch
  376. # [15:26] <@davidb> if you click in the patch you can annotate a comment.
  377. # [15:26] <@davidb> patch source code
  378. # [15:26] <@davidb> ok describe "boxes" :)
  379. # [15:26] <@askalski> davidb, I clicked "splinter review" and filled the draft. I dont know what flags means
  380. # [15:27] <@davidb> oh so wherever your email is, you can change it to + or - or empty
  381. # [15:27] <@askalski> there is my name as requestee, so I am not sure if I'm in the right place
  382. # [15:27] <@davidb> that's correct
  383. # [15:27] <@davidb> surkov is the requester
  384. # [15:27] <@askalski> if I say "good start, but incomplete" I should set the "-", right?
  385. # [15:27] <@askalski> or "empty"
  386. # [15:27] <@davidb> empty is preferred.
  387. # [15:27] <@askalski> ok
  388. # [15:28] <@tbsaunde> davidb: yeah, unless you mean excuse me while I find a garbage can to puke in now that I'm done with this :/
  389. # [15:28] <@askalski> davidb, once i set empty, my e-mail disappears
  390. # [15:28] <@askalski> is that ok?
  391. # [15:28] <@tbsaunde> davidb: it suffers from being a web app
  392. # [15:28] <@davidb> tbsaunde: clearly you've seen my patches
  393. # [15:29] <@davidb> askalski: yes
  394. # [15:29] * Joins: clown (clown@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
  395. # [15:30] * Joins: peteb-away (ptbrunet@moz-E9B02845.austin.res.rr.com)
  396. # [15:30] <@askalski> davidb, done
  397. # [15:30] <@firebot> askalski@mozilla.com cancelled review?(askalski@mozilla.co m) for attachment 597093 on bug 727163.
  398. # [15:30] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727163 nor, --, ---, nfroyd, ASSI, fix compiler warnings in accessible/
  399. # [15:31] <@davidb> surkov, tbsaunde, eeejay, if you would like to get email updates from other team members, you can sign up to http://benjamin.smedbergs.us/weekly-updates.fcgi/
  400. # [15:31] <@davidb> and add yourself to the accessibility team
  401. # [15:31] <@davidb> and of course you can post updates :)
  402. # [15:31] <@surkov> ok
  403. # [15:32] <@surkov> is anybody posting, i.e. doesn't make sense to cc there?
  404. # [15:32] <@surkov> I like spamming :)
  405. # [15:32] <@surkov> bugzilla is not enough for me :)
  406. # [15:34] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested review from marco.zehe@googlema il.com for attachment 598222 on bug 677154.
  407. # [15:34] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=677154 maj, P1, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, Detached document accessibility tree
  408. # [15:34] <@surkov> MarcoZ: are you dancing? :)
  409. # [15:35] <@surkov> so small fix, so much pain to find a problem
  410. # [15:37] <@davidb> i bet
  411. # [15:37] * Quits: sgimeno (santiago.g@A922400D.48362F18.BCC03455.IP) (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
  412. # [15:37] <@davidb> surkov: what derives from nsHTMLScrollFrame?
  413. # [15:38] <@surkov> davidb: layout guys knows :)
  414. # [15:38] <@surkov> or I miss your questions
  415. # [15:38] <@davidb> http://dxr.lanedo.com/search.cgi?tree=mozilla-central&request_time=1329489081007&derived=nsHTMLScrollFrame
  416. # [15:38] <@davidb> that's opposite what i want lol
  417. # [15:38] <@davidb> oh no, it is right
  418. # [15:39] <@davidb> but i can't believe it
  419. # [15:39] <@surkov> yeah, that's what you asked
  420. # [15:39] <@surkov> why not?
  421. # [15:39] <@surkov> list is scrollable thing
  422. # [15:39] <@davidb> only nsListControlFrame?
  423. # [15:39] <@surkov> by default
  424. # [15:39] <@surkov> ah
  425. # [15:39] * @davidb shrugs
  426. # [15:40] <@davidb> aha http://dxr.lanedo.com/search.cgi?tree=mozilla-central&request_time=1329489178718&callers=getcomputedstyle
  427. # [15:42] * @tbsaunde suprised people think using a web app is easier than grep -ri nsHTMLScrollFrame layout/ | grpe public
  428. # [15:42] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Just done! :D
  429. # [15:42] <@MarcoZ> dancing, that is.
  430. # [15:42] <@surkov> :)
  431. # [15:42] <@davidb> tbsaunde: less false hits
  432. # [15:43] <@davidb> surkov: really nice find.
  433. # [15:43] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Let me look!
  434. # [15:43] <@surkov> thx
  435. # [15:43] <@tbsaunde> davidb: in theory probably, but other than the declaration of nsHTMLScrollFrame how would you have a false hit
  436. # [15:43] <@davidb> (also this rings a bell for some reason - scrollable frames and focus)
  437. # [15:44] <@tbsaunde> I supose it doesn't handle the case of people using non-public inheritance, but that's crazy
  438. # [15:44] <@askalski> davidb, I asked Alexander whether to go with the ranged trees, and he told me to ask one person more, so I wait for answer on 606080
  439. # [15:44] <@davidb> tbsaunde: i'd have to make stuff up, like nsHTMLScrollFrame(int aRepublic)
  440. # [15:45] <@davidb> tbsaunde: but I am a grep fan
  441. # [15:45] <@davidb> askalski: gorse, have you asked tbsaunde?
  442. # [15:45] <@davidb> gorse?
  443. # [15:45] <@askalski> what gorse means?
  444. # [15:45] <@davidb> silly autocorrect
  445. # [15:45] <@davidb> "gosh"
  446. # [15:45] * @davidb looks
  447. # [15:46] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I don't follow the make stuff up thing
  448. # [15:47] <@askalski> davidb, I guess tb told me to go with it. anyway, let me know what to do. options: 1) back on LED, writing Ukkonen 2) writing trees 3) look for some other bug
  449. # [15:47] <@davidb> tbsaunde: i had "public" as part of an arg name
  450. # [15:47] <@tbsaunde> surkov: what about the case Style::foo() returns empty string?
  451. # [15:47] <@davidb> askalski: gut reaction is 2.
  452. # [15:47] * Joins: ehsan (ehsan@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
  453. # [15:47] <@davidb> but I'm not sure how I can make a reasoned choice.
  454. # [15:47] <@tbsaunde> davidb: oh, yeah, mind just autofiltered :)
  455. # [15:48] <@davidb> askalski: did you hear back about LED?
  456. # [15:48] * @davidb tries to recall
  457. # [15:49] * @tbsaunde will go a bit of his way to avoid web apps
  458. # [15:49] <@askalski> davidb, not from the professor. some algorithm guys either say it's impossible without suffix trees, or state that I'll be fine with Ukkonen
  459. # [15:49] <@davidb> askalski: Ukkonen is complex right?
  460. # [15:49] <@askalski> davidb, not as much as as what I wrote already
  461. # [15:49] <@davidb> oh
  462. # [15:50] <@askalski> but the first part took me like 20 hours, more than I expected
  463. # [15:50] <@davidb> it happens
  464. # [15:50] <@askalski> I guess 1) is OK too.
  465. # [15:50] <@davidb> yeah
  466. # [15:50] <@askalski> I'm on the subject, I don't expect anyone to break it other way
  467. # [15:50] <@askalski> and I have sources gathered
  468. # [15:50] <@davidb> guys did we reach out to mozilla developers about a pool algorithm?
  469. # [15:51] <@askalski> davidb, I have one question though. How to check if these algorithms are not patented?
  470. # [15:51] <@davidb> oh man
  471. # [15:51] <@davidb> no idea
  472. # [15:51] <@askalski> that is something I thought just in the morning
  473. # [15:51] <@davidb> askalski: you might ask jrmuizel
  474. # [15:51] <@askalski> in EU we don't think about it, it's illegal to patent an algorithm
  475. # [15:51] <@askalski> but in US it's an issue, right?
  476. # [15:51] <@surkov> tbsaunde: does it return?
  477. # [15:51] <@davidb> i think so
  478. # [15:51] <@askalski> where I will find jrmuizel?
  479. # [15:52] <@davidb> he is usually on IRC
  480. # [15:52] <@davidb> he sits near me, i'll go poke him
  481. # [15:52] <@askalski> because for example parts of Habanero are patented in USA
  482. # [15:52] <@askalski> but as long as we do our stuff in EU we don't care
  483. # [15:53] <@askalski> surkov, take a look on my review and tell me your thoughts
  484. # [15:53] <@askalski> surkov, it's my first one :), thanks
  485. # [15:54] <@tbsaunde> askalski: so, if you use stuff that there is prior art for in the publicc domain I'm pretty sure your safe
  486. # [15:54] <@tbsaunde> beyound that not really sure (arg i hate IP law)
  487. # [15:54] <@surkov> askalski: honestly I'm not sure what is review status
  488. # [15:54] <@askalski> tbsaunde, well, I am not a lawyer, I guess that the best it would be that if I just mailed someone in Legal Dep. and tell them "we added algorithms X and Y to our code"
  489. # [15:55] <@askalski> surkov, review status?
  490. # [15:55] <@tbsaunde> askalski: the thing is I believe people have gotten pattents on things like a fancy linked list
  491. # [15:55] <@surkov> askalski: is r+ or r- and why do you talk about other warning :)
  492. # [15:55] <@askalski> tbsaunde, yes, I've seend that :D
  493. # [15:56] <@tbsaunde> askalski: and we don't tell legal department every time we add any code so I'm not really sure
  494. # [15:56] <@askalski> surkov, oh, I must have misunderstood the bug title
  495. # [15:56] <@askalski> surkov, I thought "all warnings"
  496. # [15:56] <@surkov> I don't think so, at least patch doesn't fix all of them
  497. # [15:56] <@askalski> surkov, and David adviced me to set "empty"
  498. # [15:57] <@surkov> that should be bad summary
  499. # [15:57] <@surkov> askalski: what does "empty" means?
  500. # [15:57] <@askalski> surkov, so my reply is bad, or "bad summary" is something else
  501. # [15:57] <@askalski> surkov, I had options -, + and "empty"
  502. # [15:57] <@surkov> sure
  503. # [15:57] <@surkov> but are you fine with patch
  504. # [15:57] <@askalski> surkov, my conversation with David is up there
  505. # [15:58] <@surkov> if it fixes warnings then ok it works I say
  506. # [15:58] <@askalski> surkov, no, I thought that it should fix all
  507. # [15:58] <@askalski> surkov, and it's a good start
  508. # [15:58] <@firebot> marco.zehe@googlemail.com granted review for attachment 598222 on bug 677154.
  509. # [15:58] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=677154 maj, P1, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, Detached document accessibility tree
  510. # [15:58] <@askalski> surkov, but now that I see it, I must have got it wrong
  511. # [15:58] <@davidb> askalski: when we are aware of a patent, we respect it.
  512. # [15:58] <@surkov> I think we can take this patch since it makes improvements and fix bug summary and say it's fixed
  513. # [15:59] <@askalski> surkov, ok, should I change it?
  514. # [15:59] <@surkov> please, add a comment
  515. # [15:59] <@askalski> davidb, yes, but as tbsaunde said, pretty much everything is patented
  516. # [15:59] <@surkov> askalski: for your findings please file another bug(bugs)
  517. # [15:59] <@askalski> ok
  518. # [16:00] <@surkov> askalski: yeah, you should look at bug description: "Just a couple of signed-vs-unsigned comparisons."
  519. # [16:00] <@firebot> askalski@mozilla.com granted review for attachment 597093 on bug 727163.
  520. # [16:00] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727163 nor, --, ---, nfroyd, ASSI, fix compiler warnings in accessible/
  521. # [16:00] <@askalski> surkov, sorry, my mistake
  522. # [16:00] <@surkov> he was just too lazy to provide descriptive summary
  523. # [16:01] <@surkov> sometimes people does it :)
  524. # [16:01] <@surkov> when you know the problem and have a patch then you don't spend a time to describe it well
  525. # [16:01] <@tbsaunde> askalski: davidb the even better one is the pattent on a stick ;)
  526. # [16:01] <@askalski> tbsaunde, no, linked list is my favorite
  527. # [16:03] <@davidb> askalski: we (engineers) don't spend any time looking for patents.
  528. # [16:03] <@askalski> davidb, I understand, that's why I came up with idea of just reporting to Legal, so they can run it
  529. # [16:03] <@askalski> davidb, "idealistic" of course
  530. # [16:04] <@davidb> i probably wouldn't bother
  531. # [16:04] <@davidb> do you know there is a patent?
  532. # [16:04] <@davidb> i'm not asking you to find one
  533. # [16:04] <@davidb> just whether you know already there is one
  534. # [16:04] <@askalski> davidb, no
  535. # [16:05] <@askalski> davidb, I don't
  536. # [16:05] <@davidb> ok
  537. # [16:05] <@davidb> if you hear there is one definitely follow up to legal.
  538. # [16:05] <@askalski> davidb, sure. I wouldn't work on it if I knew about some kind of pattent
  539. # [16:06] <@davidb> ok great
  540. # [16:06] <@askalski> I know some kind of trees in computational geometry are patented (I remember from classes)
  541. # [16:06] <@askalski> but these text algorithms are usually from 70s and 80s, before the whole patent epidemy
  542. # [16:06] <@davidb> good
  543. # [16:07] <@davidb> i feel like this channel needs a shower, after all this patent talk :)
  544. # [16:07] <@askalski> yes :D
  545. # [16:09] <@tbsaunde> surkov: not ure what you mean can it return
  546. # [16:10] <@surkov> tbsaunde: about Style()->Foo()
  547. # [16:10] <@surkov> style always has a value
  548. # [16:11] <@tbsaunde> surkov: yeah, I gues that makes sense
  549. # [16:15] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com requested review from marco.zehe@googlemail.com for attachment 597861 on bug 714579.
  550. # [16:15] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=714579 cri, --, mozilla13, surkov.alexander, REOP, crash nsINode::OwnerDoc
  551. # [16:15] * @tbsaunde lazy
  552. # [16:22] <@askalski> going for a gym break, be back evening (or at least so I hope
  553. # [16:26] * Quits: @askalski (akuda@moz-4C8A107E.pool85-48-91.dynamic.orange.es) (Ping timeout)
  554. # [16:28] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com granted review for attachment 597707 on bug 727735.
  555. # [16:28] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727735 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, NEW, don't use computed style for width detection in IsProbablyForLayout
  556. # [16:30] <@firebot> marco.zehe@googlemail.com granted review for attachment 597861 on bug 714579.
  557. # [16:30] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=714579 cri, --, mozilla13, surkov.alexander, REOP, crash nsINode::OwnerDoc
  558. # [16:33] <@tbsaunde> surkov: where do you think the include should added in the patch ofr bug 726283?
  559. # [16:33] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=726283 nor, --, ---, jigneshhk1992, ASSI, consider using NS_GetContentList() directly in nsHTMLRadioButtonAccessible::GetPositionAndSizeIntern
  560. # [16:35] <@surkov> tbsaunde: technically we have two blocks: a11y block and other block, they have alphabetical order
  561. # [16:35] <@surkov> so to the 2nd list in your case
  562. # [16:36] <@tbsaunde> surkov: yeah, was wondering if you wanted to keep other interfaces and normal headers eperate
  563. # [16:37] <@surkov> I realized that's too complicated :)
  564. # [16:37] <@surkov> a11y and non a11y makes sense
  565. # [16:37] <@tbsaunde> ok
  566. # [16:38] <@davidb> surkov: they are discussing pdf.js a11y in #devtools in case you are interested
  567. # [16:38] <@davidb> et. al.
  568. # [16:38] * Joins: jhk (jiggy@8E6C34C1.A3F9767A.1C37C358.IP)
  569. # [16:39] <@surkov> thx
  570. # [16:39] <@davidb> np
  571. # [16:43] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Glad to report that the first patch in bug 714579 fixes the crashes for me. Today's nightly FINALLY came out.
  572. # [16:43] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=714579 cri, --, mozilla13, surkov.alexander, REOP, crash nsINode::OwnerDoc
  573. # [16:43] <@surkov> nice
  574. # [16:43] <@davidb> phew
  575. # [16:44] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com cancelled review?(trev.saunders@gmail .com) for attachment 597326 on bug 726283.
  576. # [16:44] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=726283 nor, --, ---, jigneshhk1992, ASSI, consider using NS_GetContentList() directly in nsHTMLRadioButtonAccessible::GetPositionAndSizeIntern
  577. # [16:53] <@davidb> (surkov it moved to #pdfjs)
  578. # [16:53] * Joins: hub (hub@moz-E2FCA694.figuiere.net)
  579. # [16:53] * ChanServ sets mode: +o hub
  580. # [16:53] <@surkov> :)
  581. # [16:56] <@davidb> MarcoZ: can you try out pdf.js and report at bug 727819?
  582. # [16:56] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727819 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Make PDF.js accessible
  583. # [16:56] <@davidb> http://mozilla.github.com/pdf.js/web/viewer.html
  584. # [17:01] * Quits: peteb-away (ptbrunet@moz-E9B02845.austin.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout)
  585. # [17:04] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested review from marco.zehe@googlema il.com for attachment 598242 on bug 727940.
  586. # [17:04] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 727940 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
  587. # [17:04] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727940 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, Windows app can't read Firefox setting for hardware acceleration (D2D)
  588. # [17:09] <@firebot> marco.zehe@googlemail.com granted review for attachment 598242 on bug 727940.
  589. # [17:10] <@tbsaunde> surkov: shouldn't you make that code run only on windows?
  590. # [17:11] <@surkov> tbsaunde: nsIGFXInfo is available on windows only, now. But they said nothing about its future on other platforms :)
  591. # [17:11] <@surkov> I could ifdef it but not sure if it's a big deal
  592. # [17:12] <@surkov> we just rely on interface
  593. # [17:14] <@tbsaunde> surkov: so we don't get a service at all on !windows?
  594. # [17:15] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Done.
  595. # [17:16] <@surkov> tbsaunde: I guess so
  596. # [17:17] <@davidb> MarcoZ: thanks
  597. # [17:17] <@surkov> I saw that somewhere in the code
  598. # [17:17] <@surkov> but maybe I'm wrong
  599. # [17:18] <@tbsaunde> surkov: ok, I'll go dig through gfx land later and make sure
  600. # [17:18] <@surkov> tbsaunde: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/toolkit/content/aboutSupport.js#251
  601. # [17:18] <@surkov> thank you!
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  607. # [18:00] <@surkov> davidb, marcoz, it sounds like Firefox users prefers NVDA
  608. # [18:01] <@MarcoZ> Yeah!
  609. # [18:01] <@davidb> certainly early adopters (nightly/aurora users)
  610. # [18:02] <@surkov> rihgt
  611. # [18:02] <@surkov> stable versions are on JAWS
  612. # [18:03] <@davidb> we'll see
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  615. # [18:04] <@davidb> surkov: did you see we have IAccessibleTableUsage?
  616. # [18:04] <@davidb> err
  617. # [18:04] <@davidb> IACCESSIBLE_TABLE_USAGE
  618. # [18:05] <@surkov> davidb: who gave this name? it should be started from a11y prefix
  619. # [18:06] <@davidb> possibly tbsaunde
  620. # [18:06] <@tbsaunde> surkov: I think I remember me with r=you ;)
  621. # [18:06] <@tbsaunde> git log actually knows though ;)
  622. # [18:06] <@davidb> I'd be okay with changing that
  623. # [18:06] <@surkov> tbsaunde: damn, you should have been said me that I shouldn't do that :)
  624. # [18:06] <@davidb> heheh
  625. # [18:06] <@surkov> tbsaunde: please change
  626. # [18:07] <@tbsaunde> surkov: ok, I can file a bug soon or you can :)
  627. # [18:07] <@davidb> I'm wondering if we want these to be int
  628. # [18:07] <@davidb> I think the current data is not ideal
  629. # [18:07] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I'm not sure I follow
  630. # [18:07] <@davidb> let me start over
  631. # [18:08] <@davidb> for each firefox session, or each telemetry ping (which is 1-4 times a day - i forget)...
  632. # [18:08] <@davidb> I want one data point for each probe.
  633. # [18:09] <@surkov> tbsaunde: please file :) otherwise I'm starting to afraid that one day all you will set up spam filter against me :)
  634. # [18:09] <@tbsaunde> surkov: ;p
  635. # [18:09] <@davidb> So for … table interface usage… I want to know, for the case where our engine is invoked, was it used or not. so i want to see a bar for non-usage as well.
  636. # [18:09] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I gues that makes sense probably shouldn't be hard, didn't you already do it for one thing?
  637. # [18:09] <@davidb> yes
  638. # [18:09] <@davidb> you r+'ed :)
  639. # [18:10] <@surkov> btw, can we fix 0, 1, 2 on NVDA, JAWS and etc somehow
  640. # [18:10] <@davidb> knowing a function was called 100,000 times is less useful to me until we can get better database access
  641. # [18:10] <@davidb> surkov: i sort of like this minor level of privacy
  642. # [18:10] <@tbsaunde> davidb: wmakes sense
  643. # [18:10] <@davidb> surkov: but i could right you a bookmarklet
  644. # [18:11] <@davidb> write
  645. # [18:11] <@tbsaunde> davidb: can't you dirive no from the accessibility instantiation number though if we only call used() once per session?
  646. # [18:11] <@davidb> not easily
  647. # [18:11] <@surkov> :)
  648. # [18:11] <@davidb> at least i haven't been told clearly how to do that
  649. # [18:11] <@davidb> but!
  650. # [18:12] <@davidb> we can ask taras (tglek) questions and he can give us answers
  651. # [18:12] <@tbsaunde> davidb: privacy in that someone just has to match 1 with our code
  652. # [18:12] <@davidb> tbsaunde: right :)
  653. # [18:12] <@surkov> davidb, maybe file a bug, it's not comfortable to read source code to read stats
  654. # [18:12] <@davidb> really?
  655. # [18:12] <@surkov> I am :)
  656. # [18:12] <@davidb> i've already memorized the ones with hits :)
  657. # [18:12] <@tbsaunde> surkov: I'm starting to think I think the hardware accel stuff should live in msaa/
  658. # [18:13] <@davidb> tbsaunde: i think it should live outside /accessible
  659. # [18:13] <@tbsaunde> davidb: depends what problem your trying to solve I think
  660. # [18:13] <@davidb> I want to avoid non accessibility consumers.
  661. # [18:13] <@tbsaunde> if you want to solve arbitrary code in our process wants to know then I agree
  662. # [18:13] <@surkov> tbsaunde: if they provide our cross platform interface then we can use it in cross platform code :) I don't know. We could move it to MSAA code, but no testing and no XPCOM
  663. # [18:14] <@tbsaunde> surkov: xpcom sort of makes sense
  664. # [18:14] <@davidb> tbsaunde: I also want our engine to have no noticeable perf impact, but that has proven harder.
  665. # [18:15] <@tbsaunde> surkov: but I think the little bit of testing it makes sense for us to do would be a lot better as platform layer testing
  666. # [18:15] <@surkov> if we would have it
  667. # [18:15] <@tbsaunde> surkov: its not really cross platform though
  668. # [18:15] <@davidb> surkov: we should ask jost if they have automated tests with FF
  669. # [18:15] <@tbsaunde> surkov: true
  670. # [18:15] <@surkov> this interface is not implemented on other platforms so we shouldn't care about that really?
  671. # [18:16] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I don't really see why this particular thing would be a particular big reason for someone to start using us
  672. # [18:16] <@surkov> davidb: that might be interesting, but doesn't mean we shouldn't test
  673. # [18:16] <@davidb> surkov: agreed
  674. # [18:16] <@davidb> tbsaunde: it is hard to guess.
  675. # [18:16] <@tbsaunde> surkov: there really isn't much for us to test
  676. # [18:16] * @tbsaunde has to run cya
  677. # [18:17] * tbsaunde is now known as tbsaunde|afk
  678. # [18:17] <@davidb> tbsaunde: see bug 490794 for pain
  679. # [18:17] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=490794 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Kaspersky antivirus hooks into our process and enables the accessibility module
  680. # [18:18] <@davidb> We've had d2d security bugs, where users screens have been captured.
  681. # [18:19] <@davidb> it is really hard to predict how people will use the info a11y provides.
  682. # [18:19] <@davidb> and this feels more generic than a11y-only-tool to me.
  683. # [18:26] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  684. # [18:27] <@surkov> davidb: should we cc somebody from privacy team? it doesn't sound like security problem
  685. # [18:27] <@davidb> surkov: yes exactly right, privacy.
  686. # [18:28] <@surkov> davidb, will you cc someone?
  687. # [18:28] <@davidb> ok
  688. # [18:28] <@surkov> thank you
  689. # [18:29] <@surkov> if there are privacy concerns then we need to end up with solution asking the user if he wants to provide this info to improve his expierence
  690. # [18:32] <@davidb> could be
  691. # [18:32] * @davidb looks for emails
  692. # [18:34] <@surkov> davidb: but the problem is we can't tell to the user who is asking for this information
  693. # [18:34] <@davidb> surkov: Zoomtext can :)
  694. # [18:35] <@surkov> davidb: yeah, but it can't it enable or disable
  695. # [18:35] <@surkov> it can say I'm going to ask FIrefox to enable this feature, Firefox is going to ask you about that please enable it
  696. # [18:35] <@surkov> that's sort of funny
  697. # [18:36] <@davidb> yeah, all it could do is say "you are using Firefox and we don't know if you are using D2D can tou..."
  698. # [18:36] <@davidb> tou/you
  699. # [18:36] <@davidb> yeah
  700. # [18:36] <@davidb> well, let's not get ahead of ourselvess
  701. # [18:36] <@surkov> :) just ask somebody for feedback
  702. # [18:36] <@davidb> I cc'ed geekboy
  703. # [18:37] <@MarcoZ> OK, I'm headed off for the weekend. Anybody here on Monday?
  704. # [18:37] <@davidb> MarcoZ: have a great one.
  705. # [18:37] <@davidb> 10 days until CSUN
  706. # [18:37] <@hub> I'll be here
  707. # [18:37] <@hub> no holiday in BC
  708. # [18:38] * @davidb won't
  709. # [18:38] <@MarcoZ> Yup! And haven't heard anything from Steve and richardschwerdtfeger on the preso. Guess I'll just prepare my HTML5 and WAI-ARIA forms combo stuff. ;)
  710. # [18:38] <@davidb> MarcoZ: it is worth pinging them
  711. # [18:38] <@davidb> oh
  712. # [18:38] <@davidb> you just did :)
  713. # [18:38] * @davidb steps away
  714. # [18:39] <@MarcoZ> Yeah, but am off now. richardschwerdtfeger: If you have anything, please send mail, or look at http://www.marco-zehe.de/examples (the English ones). I'd be showing off those in a little hands-down demo.
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  719. # [18:57] <@firebot> jigneshhk1992@gmail.com requested feedback from trev.saunders@gma il.com for attachment 598267 on bug 726283.
  720. # [18:57] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=726283 nor, --, ---, jigneshhk1992, ASSI, consider using NS_GetContentList() directly in nsHTMLRadioButtonAccessible::GetPositionAndSizeIntern
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  723. # [19:02] <@davidb> hi eeejay
  724. # [19:03] <@eeejay> davidb, yo!
  725. # [19:03] <@eeejay> davidb, writing up an outline of mobile a11y for wider distribution
  726. # [19:03] <@davidb> that's great to hear
  727. # [19:03] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
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  730. # [19:10] <@tbsaunde|afk> davidb: so, I would sort of agree, I think us reporting hardware accel state is a little bit of a layering violation, but that wasn't a battle I thought was worth fighting
  731. # [19:11] <@tbsaunde|afk> davidb: I don't see how it can be a privacy issue, since whoever can call IAccessible2::get_Attributes() could also inject code into our process and grovel through memory to find out themselves
  732. # [19:11] <@tbsaunde|afk> or link against libxul and use the same api we do
  733. # [19:11] <@davidb> It isn't really for me to decide.
  734. # [19:12] * tbsaunde|afk is now known as tbsaunde
  735. # [19:12] <@davidb> I'm not familiar with possible vs difficult arguments around privacy either, but I'm sure they happen.
  736. # [19:12] <@tbsaunde> davidb: true, my point is more I don't think there is anything special here we need to ask about for privacy
  737. # [19:12] <@davidb> I was on the fence until surkov inquired.
  738. # [19:13] <@davidb> I do hear you though.
  739. # [19:13] <@tbsaunde> well, if you link agaainst libxul it isn't exactly hard though you suffer the need to recompile stuff for binary addons
  740. # [19:14] <@tbsaunde> I'd also say other processes like zoom text being able to take screen shots isn't a security / privacy problem for the same reason
  741. # [19:15] <@davidb> I'm the wrong guy to defend privacy audits.
  742. # [19:21] * Joins: nhirata (nhirata.bu@moz-BBE3ABD.mv.mozilla.com)
  743. # [19:24] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I'm not saying privacy auditing stuff is always a bad idea just auditing stuff that's alreayd available
  744. # [19:24] <@davidb> oh
  745. # [19:24] <@davidb> yeah, that's interesting.
  746. # [19:28] <@tbsaunde> davidb: ?
  747. # [19:28] <@davidb> figuring out what info you can already easily get.
  748. # [19:29] <@tbsaunde> davidb: yeah, its really a question of how you get it more than making it available
  749. # [19:29] <@tbsaunde> if your willing to write an addon getting if hardware accel on is trivial
  750. # [19:29] <@davidb> true
  751. # [19:30] <@davidb> we don't want third parties installing add ons though
  752. # [19:31] <@tbsaunde> davidb: sure, but they can and there isn't a lot we can do to stop them
  753. # [19:32] <@davidb> I can feel myself getting into a conversation I don't want to have right now :)
  754. # [19:32] <@tbsaunde> heh
  755. # [19:33] <@davidb> tbsaunde: do you happen to know what the mutation observer stuff that landed in chrome recently was about?
  756. # [19:33] <@davidb> it has been a while since i followed the DomAttrModified problem
  757. # [19:36] <@tbsaunde> davidb: no, I don't know much about mutation events, ask sicking or smorg?
  758. # [19:36] <@davidb> yeah just finished chat with smaug
  759. # [19:37] <@davidb> bug 641821
  760. # [19:37] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=641821 nor, --, ---, bugs, NEW, Implement mutation events replacement (sync approach) (using moz prefix)
  761. # [19:37] <@tbsaunde> davidb: interesting
  762. # [19:38] <@tbsaunde> davidb: smorg have anything else interesting?
  763. # [19:38] * @tbsaunde reads bug
  764. # [19:40] * @surkov thinks sometimes Russian localization enjoys - https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=728303
  765. # [19:40] <@firebot> Bug 728303 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, please find a better translation for 'test pilot'
  766. # [19:42] * Quits: @surkov (surkov@1A667863.26ED71FF.34044A7F.IP) (Quit: surkov)
  767. # [19:44] <@davidb> LOL
  768. # [19:46] <@tbsaunde> yeah
  769. # [19:47] <@tbsaunde> I'm sort of tempted to try and understand why espeak isn't doing something better than reading the unicdoe for the russian there
  770. # [19:52] * Quits: sgimeno (santiago.g@moz-3F77BCB2.red-79-152-74.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) (Ping timeout)
  771. # [19:59] <@tbsaunde> davidb: hm, reading that bug makes me wonder if nsIMutationObserver would be useful to us
  772. # [20:00] <@davidb> we use it
  773. # [20:00] <@davidb> nsDocAccessible
  774. # [20:00] <@davidb> or am I misunderstanding
  775. # [20:00] <@davidb> your point
  776. # [20:01] <@tbsaunde> davidb: oic, I hadn't caught that nsIDocumentObserver inherits from it
  777. # [20:01] <@davidb> yeah
  778. # [20:01] <@davidb> but clearly your intuition it would be useful is correct :)
  779. # [20:05] <@tbsaunde> davidb: yeah, particularly it'd be really nice if we could use it for text updates :/
  780. # [20:05] <@davidb> boy howdy
  781. # [20:06] <@tbsaunde> davidb: ?
  782. # [20:06] * Quits: @hub (hub@moz-E2FCA694.figuiere.net) (Ping timeout)
  783. # [20:08] <@davidb> i agree
  784. # [20:08] <@davidb> i think
  785. # [20:21] * Quits: drexler (chatzilla@moz-BD26ECCD.hsd1.vt.comcast.net) (Client exited)
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  791. # [21:13] * @eeejay is writing an analysis of android a11y
  792. # [21:13] <@eeejay> it is making me twitch
  793. # [21:14] <@davidb> you might need to hose down after
  794. # [21:15] <@eeejay> yep
  795. # [21:16] <@hub> use high pressure water jets
  796. # [21:20] <@davidb> eeejay: I feel like you are a navy seal with a butterfly net.
  797. # [21:20] <@eeejay> the mental image is amusing
  798. # [21:20] <@eeejay> maybe with a snorkel too
  799. # [21:21] <@davidb> or an entomologist with an RPG
  800. # [21:21] <@eeejay> heh
  801. # [21:21] <@davidb> and instead of a round, you have a suckling pig in the RPG tube
  802. # [21:21] <@davidb> and it is on acid
  803. # [21:22] <@davidb> there. I've written it for you.
  804. # [21:22] <@eeejay> davidb, thanks, i'll forward that with my doc
  805. # [21:23] <@davidb> heh
  806. # [21:23] <@davidb> eeejay: who is this for?
  807. # [21:23] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  808. # [21:23] <@eeejay> davidb, want to send it to dev-planning and dev-moble
  809. # [21:23] <@eeejay> mobile
  810. # [21:23] <@eeejay> and the a11y list
  811. # [21:23] <@davidb> alrighty
  812. # [21:24] <@eeejay> may dev platform? dunno the diff
  813. # [21:24] <@davidb> planning is more for coordination
  814. # [21:24] <@eeejay> gotcha
  815. # [21:24] <@davidb> platform is for dev discussion
  816. # [21:33] <@hub> I have an Android tablet
  817. # [21:33] <@hub> we had spares here
  818. # [21:33] <@eeejay> hub, nice.. if there is another one, send it my way
  819. # [21:34] <@davidb> yes.
  820. # [21:34] <@davidb> eeejay: failing that we'll get you one at work week.
  821. # [21:34] * @eeejay high fives no one in particular
  822. # [21:36] <@hub> eeejay: there is some samsung junk
  823. # [21:36] <@eeejay> junk?
  824. # [21:36] <@hub> but then the tranformer show it is designed by idiots
  825. # [21:36] <@hub> "sorry can use your wifi, use an insecure one"
  826. # [21:36] <@eeejay> bloggers seem to be in love with it
  827. # [21:37] <@hub> eeejay: those that bought it or those that got it for free from Samsung?
  828. # [21:38] <@eeejay> hub, probably those that salivate over the pictures
  829. # [21:38] <@hub> eeejay maybe davidb get get you one
  830. # [21:38] <@davidb> yep
  831. # [21:39] <@eeejay> i don't mind either way. didn't you guys get some kind of tab 10?
  832. # [21:39] <@hub> I got one because karen has spares
  833. # [21:39] <@davidb> i have the samsung
  834. # [21:40] <@davidb> got it in san jose (all hands)
  835. # [21:43] <@davidb> eeejay: do you want that nexus one mailed or wait and pickup at work week?
  836. # [21:44] <@eeejay> davidb, maybe mailed? might be useful in csun
  837. # [21:45] <@davidb> ok!
  838. # [21:45] <@davidb> eeejay: can you give jlin your address in that bug?
  839. # [21:45] <@davidb> eeejay: what is your high end android?
  840. # [21:45] <@eeejay> davidb, yep
  841. # [21:45] <@eeejay> nexus s
  842. # [21:47] * Quits: jhk (jiggy@8E6C34C1.A3F9767A.1C37C358.IP) (Ping timeout)
  843. # [21:47] <@davidb> eeejay: seems to me you should also have ICS on something
  844. # [21:47] <@eeejay> davidb, it could run ics
  845. # [21:47] <@davidb> really?
  846. # [21:47] <@eeejay> davidb, not upgrading yet before i get something lower end
  847. # [21:47] <@davidb> i heard the nexus s2 can't so i assumed...
  848. # [21:47] <@davidb> ok
  849. # [21:47] <@eeejay> nah, it could
  850. # [21:47] <@davidb> i recall that converseation now
  851. # [21:47] <@eeejay> i just upgraded my personal phone to ics
  852. # [21:47] <@eeejay> samsung galaxy s 2
  853. # [21:48] <@davidb> ok
  854. # [21:48] <@eeejay> yesterday i handed the nexus s to a blind user. it was really bad
  855. # [21:48] <@davidb> tbsaunde: what do you have?
  856. # [21:48] <@davidb> :(
  857. # [21:48] <@eeejay> there are no error margins
  858. # [21:48] <@davidb> eeejay: is there an android device you could have handed over that would be better?
  859. # [21:49] <@eeejay> the 4 buttons on the bottom are touch and not tactile
  860. # [21:49] <@davidb> oh
  861. # [21:49] <@eeejay> so they keep hitting back and home by mistake while looking for the screen
  862. # [21:50] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, has a samsung captivate, afair
  863. # [21:51] <@davidb> that's a galaxy s i tink
  864. # [21:51] <@eeejay> cool
  865. # [21:51] <@davidb> where is dpad?
  866. # [21:51] <@davidb> or ball
  867. # [21:51] <@eeejay> on the captivate? none
  868. # [21:51] <@davidb> huh
  869. # [21:51] <@eeejay> they stopped making dpad/ball devices
  870. # [21:52] <@davidb> must be fun to use - not
  871. # [21:52] <@eeejay> it seems
  872. # [21:52] <@eeejay> the have arrows on the kb
  873. # [21:52] <@davidb> oh
  874. # [21:52] <@davidb> a slide out?
  875. # [21:52] <@eeejay> yeah
  876. # [21:52] <@davidb> ah
  877. # [21:52] <@davidb> ok
  878. # [21:52] <@davidb> i must be looking at the wrong thing
  879. # [21:53] <@eeejay> url?
  880. # [21:53] <@davidb> http://www.samsung.com/us/mobile/cell-phones/SGH-I897ZKAATT-gallery
  881. # [21:53] <@eeejay> yeah, i guess it is not the captivate
  882. # [21:53] * @eeejay looks at his notes
  883. # [21:54] <@eeejay> Stratosphere
  884. # [21:54] <@eeejay> samsung stratosphere
  885. # [21:54] <@davidb> ah ok
  886. # [21:54] <@davidb> good good
  887. # [21:55] <@eeejay> http://www.samsung.com/us/mobile/cell-phones/SCH-I405LKAVZW
  888. # [21:57] <@hub> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=726097#c17 <- can't we just get that fix in and have a new bug for this enhanced tests?
  889. # [21:57] <@firebot> Bug 726097 blo, --, ---, hub, NEW, Hit testing broken
  890. # [22:00] <@hub> sometime I wonder if we can't avoid ADD. I mean I wrote a test for the breakage and fixed the breakage.
  891. # [22:02] <@davidb> hub: you might want to email surkov directly.
  892. # [22:02] <@davidb> or catch him on IRC backchannel
  893. # [22:03] <@davidb> explain you'd like to land the fix with the test coverage, and that you'd like extra coverage not to slow this landing down.
  894. # [22:08] <@tbsaunde> hub: ADD?
  895. # [22:09] * Quits: @jprmc (jprmc@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Ping timeout)
  896. # [22:10] <@tbsaunde> so my experience of improve tests bugs is that it takes forever for them to get fixed or worked on at all
  897. # [22:10] <@davidb> I'm of two minds about them.
  898. # [22:10] <@eeejay> that's why tests should come hand in hand with fixes
  899. # [22:11] <@davidb> I don't like delaying things that are clear improvements.
  900. # [22:11] <@davidb> eeejay: or even TDD
  901. # [22:11] <@davidb> but we are playing catch up
  902. # [22:11] <@eeejay> yep
  903. # [22:11] <@tbsaunde> catch up with what?
  904. # [22:11] <@davidb> tbsaunde: TDD == test driven development. You do your tests first.
  905. # [22:12] <@davidb> gecko was not built that way
  906. # [22:12] <@davidb> nor is it built that way now really
  907. # [22:12] <@davidb> I've seen some pretty obscene amounts of tests land with new content work.
  908. # [22:12] <@hub> tbsaunde: ADD = Attention Deficit Disorder, or when you divert yourself of the thing you haven't finished to do other things
  909. # [22:12] <@davidb> Like Mounir's new form controls.
  910. # [22:12] <@eeejay> tdd and add are related
  911. # [22:12] <@davidb> hahah
  912. # [22:13] <@hub> tbsaunde: the bug was about a regression. I fixed the regression and wrote a test to ensure it happened again. but now I get asked at the same time to refactor the tests
  913. # [22:13] <@tbsaunde> davidb: you mean he landed very few or a lot?
  914. # [22:13] <@davidb> a LOT
  915. # [22:13] <@davidb> and jst required them
  916. # [22:13] <@davidb> it seems to be a characteristic of module owners
  917. # [22:14] <@davidb> you feel responsible for super coverage
  918. # [22:14] <@eeejay> hub, yeah, that is the problem with an old and imperfect code base. instead of you break it you buy it, it is you fix it you buy it
  919. # [22:14] <@tbsaunde> davidb: yeah, so I general want lots of tests but don't really think they should come *before* a first implementation
  920. # [22:14] <@davidb> I'd like to get to a point where I could just write tests for 2 months.
  921. # [22:15] <@davidb> take the load off
  922. # [22:15] <@tbsaunde> hub: yeah, so I'd tend to let you land that, but I suspect if I let you doo that the tests would never get fixed which I'd like to avoid
  923. # [22:15] <@hub> eeejay: I fixed it, and wrote the test that make sure I don'tr break it again
  924. # [22:15] <@eeejay> hub, and now you own the entire test suite :)
  925. # [22:16] <@tbsaunde> davidb: yeah, I'd love to see that happen but definitely have negative interest in doing it myself
  926. # [22:16] <@hub> *sigh*
  927. # [22:16] <@tbsaunde> unless you offer me barrels of vodca ;)
  928. # [22:17] <@davidb> this is clearly extortion :)
  929. # [22:17] <@davidb> hub: i'd choose vodka
  930. # [22:17] <@davidb> or
  931. # [22:17] <@davidb> wait until tbsaunde asks you for review ;)
  932. # [22:17] <@tbsaunde> hub: yeah, but someone needs to do it, sorry :/
  933. # [22:17] <@davidb> r+ if you write tests for my bugs
  934. # [22:18] <@davidb> correction
  935. # [22:18] <@davidb> for anything related to my bugs
  936. # [22:18] <@tbsaunde> heh
  937. # [22:25] <@davidb> ok guys, have a nice weekend
  938. # [22:25] <@davidb> i'm off monday
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  945. # [22:43] <@hub> tbsaunde: sure someone need to do it. but if I do that now, I'm not fixing the Mac build
  946. # [22:51] * Parts: clown (clown@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
  947. # [22:57] <@tbsaunde> hub: true
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The end :)