/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2012-04-20 / end
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- # Session Start: Fri Apr 20 00:00:00 2012
- # Session Ident: #accessibility
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- # [00:07] <Bryen> firebot, That's getting personal!
- # [00:07] <@firebot> Bryen: Sorry, I've no idea what 'That's getting personal' might be.
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- # Session Close: Fri Apr 20 00:29:17 2012
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- # Session Start: Fri Apr 20 00:29:17 2012
- # Session Ident: #accessibility
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- # [00:30] * Topic is '"build the web for everyone" | release schedule: http://mzl.la/LNc0W | accessibility list https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/accessibility'
- # [00:30] * Set by hub on Tue Apr 17 00:34:03
- # [00:32] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com granted review for attachment 616750 on bug 739882.
- # [00:32] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=739882 nor, --, ---, maxli, NEW, decomtaminate getting row and column count on accessible tables
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- # [00:57] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 747219 filed by trev.saunders@gmail.com.
- # [00:58] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=747219 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, decomtaminate GetCellAt() on accessible tables
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- # [01:01] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 747227 filed by trev.saunders@gmail.com.
- # [01:01] <@firebot> Bug 747227 was not found.
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- # [03:08] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 616828 on bug 745986.
- # [03:08] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=745986 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] Display page loading states
- # [03:11] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 747270 filed by eitan@monotonous.org.
- # [03:11] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=747270 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] UtterangeGenerator should return string lists in all generator methods
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- # [03:14] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from dbolter@mozilla.com for attachment 616829 on bug 747270.
- # [03:15] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 747272 filed by eitan@monotonous.org.
- # [03:15] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=747272 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] Filter out whitespace text leaves in navigation
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- # Session Start: Fri Apr 20 04:44:29 2012
- # Session Ident: #accessibility
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- # [04:45] * Topic is '"build the web for everyone" | release schedule: http://mzl.la/LNc0W | accessibility list https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/accessibility'
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- # [09:50] <@firebot> virgil.dicu@softvision.ro set status-firefox12 to verified on bug 706784.
- # [09:50] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=706784 cri, --, mozilla14, surkov.alexander, RESO FIXED, Firefox 8.0.1 Crash Report [@ nsLinkableAccessible::GetValue(nsAString_internal&) ] (mainly correlat
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- # [13:37] <@askalski> hi everyone
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- # [15:14] <@askalski> hi, anyone can help me with hg?
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- # [15:27] <Mark_Capella> askalksi: i can try but im no expert
- # [15:29] <@askalski> Mark_Capella, I have a patch made on linux, I want to qimport it on windows. there is no "qimport" on windows, and simple "import" failes. repos are identical (clones of mozilla-central)
- # [15:29] <Mark_Capella> im on windows and i use qimport ... what do you mean?
- # [15:32] <@askalski> Mark_Capella, what hg --version you have?
- # [15:32] <@askalski> and qimport just works?
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- # [15:33] <@askalski> do I need to qexport or something a patch? Cause applying fails :(
- # [15:33] <Mark_Capella> yes it works ... im pretty sure version is not an issues ... have you done a qrefresh first to update your queses?
- # [15:34] <@askalski> oh how much I hate windows, I can't do even a dumb copy from commandline!
- # [15:34] <@askalski> I get
- # [15:35] <Mark_Capella> winDOHs !
- # [15:35] <@askalski> hg qimport E:\mozi... (path to linux-repo)\bug-someting
- # [15:35] <@askalski> and I get
- # [15:35] <@askalski> hg: unknown command 'qimport'
- # [15:35] <@askalski> I mean, common, what kind of issue is that?
- # [15:36] <@askalski> it's like this meme "NO"
- # [15:36] <Mark_Capella> hmmm ... can you do a HG STATUS and it works?
- # [15:37] <Mark_Capella> my version of HG is 1.9.1 im on windows 7 btw....
- # [15:37] <@askalski> Mark_Capella, that's the issue. I got 2.1.2 :(. I downgrade
- # [15:37] <@askalski> btw, how to do hg revert --all so it really reverts
- # [15:38] <@askalski> and removes .orig and other trash?
- # [15:38] <@askalski> or is it another thing impossible on windows :D
- # [15:38] <Mark_Capella> remove .orig and .rej all is by hand
- # [15:38] <Mark_Capella> is how i do it
- # [15:38] <@askalski> :D
- # [15:39] <@askalski> common :D
- # [15:39] <@askalski> you know, I was not using windows for several years now
- # [15:39] <Mark_Capella> but hiaving a "more current" version of HG like you do shouldnt cause you to lose QIMPORT ... unless they renamed it
- # [15:39] <@askalski> no really, all I want is get this patch done and hope I will not come back to windows for a moment now :D
- # [15:40] <Mark_Capella> i can tell you how to do it without QIMPORT ... theres a trick
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- # [15:41] <@askalski> I am listening :)
- # [15:41] <Mark_Capella> you have to do a QPOP -a first ... clear out the QUEUEs
- # [15:42] <Mark_Capella> then do your normal "QNEW bugfoo" to create an empty patch which is applied automatically
- # [15:43] <@askalski> ok, thanks, I need to go for a moment now
- # [15:43] <Mark_Capella> then use your text editor to copy the desired patch contents into the bugfoo file in the repo\.hg\patch directory
- # [15:43] <Mark_Capella> ---^
- # [15:43] <Mark_Capella> ill be around
- # [15:43] <tbsaunde> askalski: did you just forget to enable the mqueue extension?
- # [15:46] <@askalski> tbsaunde, most probably. how to do it on widows?
- # [15:48] <Mark_Capella> ah -- yah - thats probably it - i have
- # [15:48] <Mark_Capella> [extensions]
- # [15:48] <Mark_Capella> hgext.mq =
- # [15:48] <Mark_Capella> in my mercurial.ini file
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- # [15:59] <@davidb> hi!
- # [15:59] <@davidb> askalski: good to see ya
- # [15:59] <@davidb> I will say that I have had a nice breakfast and am ready to get shit done.
- # [16:00] <@MarcoZ> Hey all!
- # [16:00] <@askalski> hi davidb
- # [16:00] <@askalski> I am fighting with windows
- # [16:00] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Have anyone from the build team in Toronto who could quickly look at the Accessibility branch why it hasn't been building since April 5? :)
- # [16:01] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Probably since the shift to Lion build machines or something of that sort.
- # [16:01] <@davidb> MarcoZ: branches automatically go dormant if there is no activity
- # [16:01] <@davidb> it should start up again automagically
- # [16:01] <@MarcoZ> davidb: There has been activity, lots of esp yesterday. And the OS X opt and debug syy something about an infrastructure exception on tbpl, but the summary is empty.
- # [16:01] <Mark_Capella> askalski: still trying?
- # [16:02] <@askalski> Mark_Capella, I do another checkout
- # [16:02] <@davidb> MarcoZ: oh hmmm, well it probably makes sense for you to ping them directly. I can mention it but I'm not sure they're in.
- # [16:03] <@davidb> askalski: build failure?
- # [16:03] <Mark_Capella> cant qimport a patch failure
- # [16:04] <@davidb> patch -p1 < mypatch.diff?
- # [16:04] <@davidb> i'm not really sure how qimport can fail
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- # [16:04] <@davidb> askalski: have you run hg qinit?
- # [16:04] <@davidb> (that creates .hg etc)
- # [16:05] <@MarcoZ> davidb: That's usually not necessary if you want to work with just one patch queue. The extension wasn't enabled in mercurial.ini for askalski until a few minutes ago.
- # [16:05] <@askalski> davidb, I tried downgrading hg, now I do checkout eating lunch :)
- # [16:05] <@davidb> you'll need hgext.mq= in your hgrc [extensions]
- # [16:05] <@davidb> ah ok
- # [16:05] <Mark_Capella> mercurial.ini
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- # [16:05] <Mark_Capella> [extensions]
- # [16:05] <Mark_Capella> hgext.mq =
- # [16:05] <Mark_Capella> ???
- # [16:05] <@davidb> right
- # [16:05] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Hm, I believe they recently changed something with regards to IRC channels for build. They have #build and #buildduty now.
- # [16:06] <Mark_Capella> or load into the patch directory via editor
- # [16:06] <@davidb> MarcoZ: hmm, well they're a friendly bunch in both channels :0
- # [16:06] <@davidb> :)
- # [16:08] <@MarcoZ> I just pinged into the unknown and hope for a response. :)
- # [16:09] <@MarcoZ> Theoretically, if all had gone well, we would have had a nightly build with accessibility enabled from that branch today, but we haven't.
- # [16:10] <@davidb> We might be a good test case for them :)
- # [16:24] * Joins: ehsan_ (ehsan@F0B20A8D.8458880F.57F33CED.IP)
- # [16:34] <@askalski> does anyone know what is the "system cannot find message text for message number ..."?
- # [16:34] <@askalski> it's killing me, all commandline output is so disrupted
- # [16:36] <@askalski> tbsaunde, yes, that did the trick, thanks
- # [16:43] * Joins: aaronlev_ (aaronlev@moz-654DF715.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
- # [16:43] * Quits: aaronlev (aaronlev@moz-26EA018F.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Ping timeout)
- # [16:43] * aaronlev_ is now known as aaronlev
- # [16:43] <tbsaunde> askalski: well, that isn't an exact error message so hard to say
- # [16:44] <tbsaunde> I'd guess its a translation issue with stuff not fully localized and gettext sucking, but ot really sure
- # [16:44] <@askalski> tbsaunde, I am using a standard windows 7 english!
- # [16:45] <@askalski> askalski, and I haven't messed up with any regional settings. and it was installed in Toronto, so it even picked american timezone.
- # [16:45] <tbsaunde> odd, pastebin example?
- # [16:47] <@askalski> tbsaunde, http://pastebin.com/YhrnpJsM
- # [16:47] * Quits: ehsan_ (ehsan@F0B20A8D.8458880F.57F33CED.IP) (Input/output error)
- # [16:50] <tbsaunde> askalski: NFC
- # [16:50] <@askalski> tbsaunde, NFC?
- # [16:51] <tbsaunde> no f*cking clue
- # [16:51] <@askalski> tbsaunde, thanks :)
- # [16:51] <Mark_Capella> askalski: is that a true WIN machine or virtual over linux or something?
- # [16:51] <@askalski> Mark_Capella, it is a virtualbox, but it is looking into C: which is a simulated harddrive not netword device
- # [16:52] <Mark_Capella> yah ... the OS isnt configured correctly ... PATH= is wrong or system DLLS not in the right place
- # [16:53] <@askalski> Mark_Capella, yes, that I googled. but why? It's a standard "next next next next, whatever" installation
- # [16:54] <Mark_Capella> as tbsaunde said >nfc< :) thats why i do win ... linux scares me !
- # [16:55] <tbsaunde> askalski: if you really cared I suppose you could try running dir in visual studio ...
- # [16:55] <@davidb> askalski: don't use the windows shell
- # [16:55] <@davidb> or wait - what are you trying to do?
- # [16:56] <@askalski> davidb, I decided to use commandline mercurial on windows, since I don't understand the visual interface, names doesn't match
- # [16:56] <@askalski> *don't
- # [16:56] <@davidb> askalski: run the batch file to launch a shell
- # [16:56] <@davidb> don't use windows command shell
- # [16:56] <@askalski> davidb, like "cmd.bat" with single "cmd" line?
- # [16:57] <@askalski> or something else?
- # [16:57] * @davidb hunts for wiki page
- # [16:57] <@askalski> or is there bash for windows?
- # [16:57] <tbsaunde> askalski: why don't you just use mercurial in mozilla-build?
- # [16:57] <Mark_Capella> nope like start-msvc10-x64.bat
- # [16:57] <Mark_Capella> yes bach for win
- # [16:58] <@askalski> tbsaunde, didn't know there is one
- # [16:58] <@davidb> askalski: see "Opening a Build Command Prompt" here https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Developer_Guide/Build_Instructions/Windows_Prerequisites
- # [16:58] <tbsaunde> askalski: ... how do you build on windows then???
- # [16:58] <@davidb> Mark_Capella: right
- # [16:58] <@davidb> askalski: your world is about to get easier
- # [16:58] <@askalski> tbsaunde, well, I use the shell from mozilla-build, I just used external hg
- # [16:59] <@davidb> ohh
- # [16:59] <@askalski> I even use pymake
- # [16:59] <@davidb> why?
- # [16:59] <@askalski> davidb, because I didn't know that mozilla-build contains hg
- # [16:59] <@davidb> oh
- # [16:59] <tbsaunde> askalski: mozilla-build includes hg afaik so why not just use that?
- # [16:59] <@askalski> the name isn't very suggestive on that topic
- # [16:59] <@davidb> true
- # [16:59] <@askalski> tbsaunde, I didn't know that D:
- # [17:00] <@askalski> omg, and it's the right version!
- # [17:00] <@askalski> the 1.9.1 like in ubuntu!
- # [17:00] <@askalski> :D
- # [17:00] <tbsaunde> well, tools-for-mozillla-work-dating-from-1995-or-before is pretty long
- # [17:00] <Mark_Capella> windows not so bad :)
- # [17:01] <tbsaunde> though it describes what it contains better
- # [17:01] <@askalski> Mark_Capella, you will need a lot more to convince me that :D
- # [17:01] <Mark_Capella> :P
- # [17:02] <Mark_Capella> <--- started out with DOS 2.0 ...
- # [17:03] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@18536C17.20718EE9.79933D60.IP)
- # [17:03] <Mark_Capella> before that CP/M...
- # [17:03] <Mark_Capella> WIN7 waaaaaaaaaaaay better :)
- # [17:06] * @davidb adds "Note: MozillaBuild includes mercurial." to the MozillaBuild info on the wiki
- # [17:08] <tbsaunde> davidb what about tr and sed and bash and ... ? :p
- # [17:09] <@davidb> heheh
- # [17:13] <@MarcoZ> LOL
- # [17:14] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Doesn't it even mention that somewhere on the build documentation pages?
- # [17:14] * @MarcoZ might remember it wrong.
- # [17:14] <@davidb> i swear it used to
- # [17:14] <@davidb> but there seems to be too overlapping parallel sources of info
- # [17:14] <@davidb> wiki and mdn
- # [17:14] <@MarcoZ> Oh and I picked a cool time to ask about build problems on Accessibility. They're fighting a huge bunch of other build problems right now.
- # [17:14] <@davidb> heh
- # [17:15] <@davidb> "go away"
- # [17:15] <@MarcoZ> Oh I always look on MDN for build config and such related stuff.
- # [17:15] <@MarcoZ> No, Catlee was very very helpful!
- # [17:15] <@davidb> cool
- # [17:16] <@davidb> I'm hitting clang linker command errors on linux
- # [17:16] <@davidb> I would like to do real work.
- # [17:18] * Joins: drexler (chatzilla@moz-BD26ECCD.hsd1.vt.comcast.net)
- # [17:20] <@davidb> hmmm maybe ccache is cranky
- # [17:23] <@MarcoZ> Yeah, sounds like a clobber problem.
- # [17:23] <@davidb> yep - cleared cache and clobbered build dir… now building again
- # [17:25] <tbsaunde> davidb: bug 743680?
- # [17:25] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=743680 nor, --, mozilla14, surkov.alexander, RESO FIXED, don't export nsARIAMap.h
- # [17:25] <@davidb> tbsaunde: yes!
- # [17:26] <tbsaunde> davidb: want to figure it out?
- # [17:26] <@davidb> no
- # [17:26] <tbsaunde> it confuses me
- # [17:26] <@davidb> but i will look
- # [17:27] <tbsaunde> or you could switch to a faster linker or a compiler that is less anoying ;)
- # [17:28] <@davidb> i can't get everyone to switch
- # [17:28] <@davidb> this should have been backed out while we worked on a fix IMO
- # [17:28] <@davidb> because otherwise people will disable a11y in their builds
- # [17:30] <tbsaunde> why do you mind if people disable things locally?
- # [17:31] <@davidb> i'd rather they accidentally test a11y, for example that's how we first discovered windows tablets used a11y
- # [17:31] <@davidb> shaver discovered it
- # [17:31] * Joins: ehsan (ehsan@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
- # [17:32] <tbsaunde> I'm ot sure I follow
- # [17:32] <tbsaunde> also, not many people seem to have hit it, and sucks to be using a non-tear 1 config
- # [17:32] * tbsaunde notes he isn't using an approved config either as in gcc 4.6 / 7 and gold
- # [17:37] <@davidb> clang is much preferred in the toronto office
- # [17:37] <@davidb> i'm not sure in what way you don't follow
- # [17:39] <tbsaunde> I don't see how shaver building with a11y locally leads to discovering things windows tablets do
- # [17:39] * Joins: nhirata (nhirata.bu@moz-585D5EFC.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
- # [17:39] * tbsaunde shrugs
- # [17:40] * Quits: logbot (logbot@moz-622AFC27.glob.com.au) (Ping timeout)
- # [17:40] <@davidb> he did.
- # [17:41] <@davidb> he noticed FF was slow and profiled it
- # [17:41] <@davidb> leading to bug 538530
- # [17:41] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=538530 nor, --, Future, english-us, NEW, a11y too easy to enable (win7 tablet pc components)
- # [17:42] <@davidb> shaver was supposed to lend me the tablet but it kept getting postponed
- # [17:42] <@davidb> it was silly times.
- # [17:42] <tbsaunde> davidb: sure, and people typcially use local builds for browsing?
- # [17:43] <@davidb> I don't have that data.
- # [17:43] <@davidb> If people = mozilla devs then the number is probably higher than average.
- # [17:44] <@davidb> Lots of bugs are reported with local builds.
- # [17:44] <tbsaunde> ok
- # [17:45] <tbsaunde> I still not particularly interested in debugging issues with random platforms though
- # [17:46] <@davidb> man, I wish I knew more about build tools
- # [17:46] <@davidb> working on three platforms makes it a bit cumbersome
- # [17:46] <tbsaunde> they're fairly similar in some ways, accept where they aren't
- # [17:47] <@davidb> the devil in the details
- # [17:48] <tbsaunde> if I was going to try and debug that I'd probably start including Accessible-inl.h in random files that don't include it already
- # [17:48] * Joins: logbot (logbot@moz-622AFC27.glob.com.au)
- # [17:49] * Bryen nods hello to davidb and tbsaunde
- # [17:49] <tbsaunde> but 1 don't have clang installed, 2 don't generally use ld.bfd which seems to be required to reproduce, and 3 can't really use try
- # [17:49] * @davidb waves
- # [17:51] <@MarcoZ> Hi Bryen :)
- # [17:54] <Bryen> davidb, clown By the way, here's another example of missing images in a rather critical way: http://www.bryen.com/images/wp-editor.png
- # [17:54] <Bryen> heya MarcoZ How's it going, dude?
- # [17:55] <@davidb> Bryen: did you figure out who is at fault for this issue? browser or web dev or ?
- # [17:56] * Quits: @askalski (akuda@moz-4C8A107E.pool85-48-91.dynamic.orange.es) (Ping timeout)
- # [17:57] <Bryen> davidb, tbh, I'm not sure what the answer is. clown put some comments in the bug report, he says its not entirely an authoring issue
- # [17:57] <Bryen> but given that this happens all over the web, even if its "their fault", I'd hope that somehow FF figures out a way to remedy their problems
- # [17:57] <@davidb> now where is that bug
- # [17:57] <Bryen> lemme find it...
- # [17:58] <@davidb> yeah the blame is a side issue but important to know… so that i can pass it on or not
- # [17:58] <Bryen> bug 746205
- # [17:58] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=746205 nor, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, CSS issues render color selection in FF useless
- # [17:59] <Bryen> apparently from the comments, this is a known issue from other bug reports over the years
- # [18:00] <Bryen> I'm going to go ahead and add this last image as I think it perfectly drives home the issue here.
- # [18:00] <@davidb> Bryen: ok yes this looks like an author error unfortunately
- # [18:00] <@davidb> but we can possible work around it
- # [18:01] <@davidb> e/y
- # [18:01] <@davidb> surkov: you around?
- # [18:01] <@surkov> yes
- # [18:01] <@davidb> surkov: hero (I PMed you a while back)
- # [18:01] <@davidb> hero/heyo :)
- # [18:02] <Bryen> davidb, the very idea of jumping on every website is rather scary. But... more importantly, if we don't know an image is missing, how do we know to yell at the designer? :-)
- # [18:03] <@davidb> Bryen: we encountered this in dojo, since background images are a very handy thing… but when backgrounds are overridden by css… the information conveyed by the image is lost.
- # [18:03] <@davidb> we used to try and detect this and auto convert the image to a foreground image
- # [18:03] <Bryen> and "dojo" is?
- # [18:03] <@davidb> alternative to jquery
- # [18:04] <@davidb> and my story is about when i was working on dojo
- # [18:04] <@davidb> dijit to be precise
- # [18:04] <Bryen> and did it end up being a nightmare or a success?
- # [18:05] <@davidb> mostly success but only for dojo usage
- # [18:05] <@davidb> since the fix was in the js
- # [18:05] <@davidb> background images were invented for ambience but they are used for info now
- # [18:05] <@davidb> so we have this pickle
- # [18:06] <Bryen> so at this point sounds like "contacting site admin" is still the way to go, even as daunting as it is
- # [18:06] <@davidb> Bryen: if linux had a high contrast mode we could detect… that would be interesting.
- # [18:06] <@davidb> Bryen: that should be done regardless of workarounds
- # [18:07] <clown> hey Bryen — I heard my name.
- # [18:07] <Bryen> davidb, Yes, but the downside of it is, "Oh okay, we'll fix this in our next update of such-and-such software" which could be a while down the line.
- # [18:07] * clown reads the log.
- # [18:07] <Bryen> clown, Honk! Honk!
- # [18:09] <clown> davidb, regarding this bug — "all" that's required is some UI to allow FF users to specify a foreground/background colour combo that does *not* affect the background images.
- # [18:09] <@davidb> clown: I can't find a WCAG note about background images used for info
- # [18:09] <Bryen> davidb, And of course, the problem for me, is I wouldn't have a clue where in CSS to tell them it needs fixes. Devs don't care about "it's broken" they seem to care more about "give us the solution"
- # [18:09] <@davidb> clown: yes I agree regarding the UI
- # [18:10] <clown> the current FF UI allows specifying the colours, but FF not only changes the background colour, it also removes the background images.
- # [18:10] <@davidb> we can't add UI noise, but we could bury it next to the css prefs
- # [18:10] <clown> why does it remove the images?
- # [18:10] <@davidb> correct
- # [18:10] <@davidb> i'd have to look at css spec
- # [18:10] <@davidb> it might be in error
- # [18:10] <@davidb> or it might be per spec
- # [18:11] <clown> see the style sheet I attached to the bug to show how to just change the colours and leave the images alone.
- # [18:11] <@davidb> or it might be hard
- # [18:11] <@davidb> i believe it can be done in css yes
- # [18:11] <clown> it isn't hard from a css point of view...
- # [18:11] <@davidb> right
- # [18:11] <Bryen> clown, did you see the link above to my screenshot for wordpress?
- # [18:12] <Bryen> my workaround on that is to hover my mouse on a button and hope it was tagged. But that poses another a11y problem if you are using a large mouse pointer.
- # [18:12] <clown> Bryen, nope (I'm currently carrying on two IRC conversations). I'll look now.
- # [18:13] <@davidb> only 2?
- # [18:13] <@davidb> luxury
- # [18:14] <Bryen> well I am a problem in and of myself, so that kind of grows the number of problems exponentially :-)
- # [18:15] <clown> Bryen, I'm having trouble locating the link in my log — can you paste it here again?
- # [18:16] <Bryen> clown, the screenshot for wordpress editor: http://www.bryen.com/images/wp-editor.png
- # [18:16] <clown> Bryen, :-) it just showed up in my email.
- # [18:17] * tbsaunde is now known as tbsaunde|afk
- # [18:17] <clown> yeah, that looks like they used background images. Bryen you could use the style sheet I attached to the browser, if you also have the Web Developer FF extension.
- # [18:17] <@davidb> Bryen, clown, if we don't allow the background colour to override the background image, you can guess what bug would be subsequently filed right?
- # [18:17] <clown> "attached to the bugzilla" I mean.
- # [18:18] <@davidb> for example, image you select foreground white, and the background image is white
- # [18:18] <@davidb> image/imagine
- # [18:18] <@davidb> or, mostly white
- # [18:18] <clown> davidb, the correct way to do it is as two options: "background color overrides all background" and "background colour overrides author's background colour only".
- # [18:19] <@davidb> but you would want a different option for different sites right?
- # [18:19] <clown> the UI already allows you to choose the colour you want.
- # [18:19] <Bryen> clown, Ohh, so rather than having every site adapt their css, I attach it to my extension here locally?
- # [18:19] <@davidb> i need to think about this to make sure i believe you understand me :)
- # [18:20] <Bryen> davidb, you should know by now that I never understand anything
- # [18:20] <@davidb> heh
- # [18:20] <clown> so, yeah, users might have to go in and change the colour on a site-by-site basis, but maybe that's rare or infrequent.
- # [18:20] <Bryen> and I don't know if my "nod head with eyes glazed over" has the same effect now that my vision is decreasing more rapidly
- # [18:20] <clown> Bryen, re: " I attach it to my extension here locally". That's right. Web Developer allows you to apply your own CSS.
- # [18:21] <Bryen> clown, Ok I'll do that. It will at least get me back to work, so to speak. Although it still hides the problem that affects the masses.
- # [18:21] <@davidb> clown: the UI might be condensed as a checkbox "Remove background images" right?
- # [18:21] <clown> the draw back is that the minute you navigate away, then you have to re-apply it.
- # [18:22] <Bryen> ohhh
- # [18:22] <clown> davidb: I'm not a UI designer :-), but that sounds okay.
- # [18:22] <clown> I'd go for "Do not remove background images".
- # [18:23] <@davidb> why?
- # [18:23] <@davidb> meh
- # [18:23] <clown> because the UI that is there has been there for years — and it's created an expectation of removal as the default. Maybe...
- # [18:23] <clown> I agree, meh.
- # [18:24] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 746205 from UNCONFIRMED to NEW.
- # [18:24] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=746205 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, CSS issues render color selection in FF useless
- # [18:24] <@davidb> onward!
- # [18:24] * @davidb goes to eat
- # [18:24] <clown> davidb, eating is a good idea.
- # [18:25] <clown> actually, davidb, I've change my mind — your check box label is better, since it make removing the image the marked case. the default is to keep them.
- # [18:25] <clown> did I mention I'm not a UI designer?
- # [18:26] <Bryen> clown, ok so presumably, site designers can fix this problem before it gets to us. How/what do I say when I file with them?
- # [18:26] <Bryen> just attach your css stylesheet to show them the proper coding?
- # [18:30] <clown> Bryen, no that won't work.
- # [18:31] * @MarcoZ is off for the weekend. See you all on Monday!
- # [18:31] * Quits: @MarcoZ (Daily@moz-2B6D3DD5.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Weekend!)
- # [18:31] <clown> what would be best is if they didn't use background images for informative content.
- # [18:32] <clown> or, if they use background images, they have to provide an alternative for users who view their site in another way.
- # [18:34] <Bryen> I see
- # [18:34] <clown> you want inverse, right? This isn't a case of "high contrast mode" is it?
- # [18:34] <Bryen> so there's no magic line in CSS that I should tell people to use?
- # [18:34] <clown> if there is a magic line, I don't know what it is.
- # [18:34] <Bryen> no this isn't high-contrast mode, this is color selection
- # [18:35] <Bryen> hmm
- # [18:35] <clown> because, in Windows, high contrast mode gives the same result — the background images are eliminated.
- # [18:36] <clown> and, as davidb noted, dojo/dijit compensates internally for that. that is, if the gui is made using dojo, and the system is put into high contrast mode, dojo fixes itself with respect to background images.
- # [18:36] <clown> jquery may to the same.
- # [18:37] <clown> "may do the same".
- # [18:38] <Bryen> clown, hmm. well my GNOME desktop is set to high-contrast. But of course content within an app doesn't necessarily follow the high-contrast mode. FF, for example.
- # [18:38] <clown> yeah, I noticed that. On Windows, high contrast mode affects *everything*.
- # [18:40] <clown> for sake of completeness: on the Mac it switches to high contrast everywhere, but it doesn't affect background images.
- # [18:40] <clown> ah, consistency across platforms!
- # [18:40] <clown> not...
- # [18:40] <clown> brb
- # [18:45] <@davidb> Bryen: does the FF UI respect high contrast mode? (not talking about content)
- # [18:45] <clown> Bryen, there might be a WCAG guideline about background images that you could cite when you contact site designers. But, I'm not a WCAG expert, either.
- # [18:45] <@davidb> clown: I couldn't find one
- # [18:46] <@davidb> clown: ask Jan?
- # [18:46] <clown> davidb: Jan's not here, or I would.
- # [18:46] <@davidb> ok
- # [18:50] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com granted review for attachment 616829 on bug 747270.
- # [18:50] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=747270 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] UtterangeGenerator should return string lists in all generator methods
- # [18:50] <Bryen> davidb, the "skeleton" of FF is respected yes
- # [18:50] <Bryen> not actual web pages.
- # [18:50] <@davidb> Bryen: yeah, we are not supposed to mess with content really
- # [18:51] <@davidb> because chaos
- # [18:51] <@davidb> CHAOS!
- # [18:51] <Bryen> agreed
- # [18:51] * @eeejay flaccidly waves
- # [18:51] <clown> for a visual, davidb, take a look at one of Bryen's screenshots: https://bug746205.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=615760
- # [18:51] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=746205 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, CSS issues render color selection in FF useless
- # [18:51] <@davidb> eeejay: that conjures an image I wish it didn't
- # [18:52] <Bryen> ahh eeejay is here. He can solve all our problems just like that! (snaps fingers but no sound comes out)
- # [18:52] <clown> davidb, an elephant raising its trunk?
- # [18:52] <@eeejay> davidb, oh, yeah.
- # [18:52] <@davidb> a snap is actually your finger breaking the speed of sound
- # [18:52] <@davidb> clown: fnort!
- # [18:52] <@davidb> must be friday
- # [18:52] <Bryen> davidb, How the hell do you know such things! :-)
- # [18:53] <clown> i predicted that, davidb :-)
- # [18:53] <@davidb> Bryen: I follow OMGFacts on twitter
- # [18:53] <@davidb> many of the things they tweet are news to me
- # [18:53] <Bryen> you have time to follow twitter?
- # [18:53] <@davidb> like about the octopus...
- # [18:53] <clown> and everyone knows that OMGFacts accuracy is beyond dispute.
- # [18:53] <@davidb> The Argonaut octopus
- # [18:54] <@davidb> http://www.omg-facts.com/Facts/The-Argonaut-is-a-type-of-octopus-that-h/50407
- # [18:54] <@davidb> clown: heheh
- # [18:54] * clown is a cynic.
- # [18:54] <@davidb> I'll never look at our CFL football team the same way again.
- # [18:55] <clown> how many non-torontonians will get that?
- # [18:55] <@eeejay> did you guys know i started a side-project the other day that will make me rich?
- # [18:55] <@eeejay> http://isitraininginseattle.com/
- # [18:55] <@davidb> eeejay: when will you add google ads?
- # [18:55] <Bryen> You don't fish for octopus in Lake Ontario?
- # [18:55] <@eeejay> davidb, must resist the urge
- # [18:55] <@davidb> Bryen: I can't say I have.
- # [18:56] <@eeejay> had 50 hits yesterday, that is at least $2.50 lost...
- # [18:56] <@davidb> eeejay: that is a pretty cool site actually
- # [18:56] <Bryen> eeejay, OMG No one else ever thought of that domain name? :-)
- # [18:56] <@eeejay> i know!
- # [18:56] <@davidb> I really need to get to work on http://www.areweaccessibleyet.com/
- # [18:56] <clown> eeejay: what colour are the clouds?
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- # [18:56] <@eeejay> davidb, seems accurate to me
- # [18:57] <@davidb> we need graphs, charts, cartoons!
- # [18:57] <@eeejay> clown, grayish-green
- # [18:58] <Bryen> davidb, and you need to make the website highly inaccessible.
- # [18:58] <@davidb> cartoons!
- # [18:58] <Mark_Capella> http://itsclobberingtime.blogspot.com/2011/05/fantastic-four-friday.html
- # [18:59] <@davidb> ah the thing
- # [18:59] <Bryen> davidb, and make sure all the cartoons disappear when you change background colors.
- # [18:59] <@davidb> right
- # [19:00] <@davidb> or i can learn from http://www.evangelcathedral.net/
- # [19:00] * tbsaunde|afk is now known as tbsaunde
- # [19:00] <clown> Fantistic Four Friday? Fantastic idea.
- # [19:00] <@davidb> now we need 3 more
- # [19:01] <Bryen> things are better now, tbsaunde came back.
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- # [19:19] <@eeejay> davidb, holy crap! is that site for real?
- # [19:21] <@davidb> it is flash gone wild
- # [19:22] <clown> yes, but is it accessible? ;-)
- # [19:24] <Bryen> A church that offers modelling?
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- # [19:25] * Bryen imagines what it would be like if 9-1-1 calls were preceded with a flash intro like this
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- # [20:27] <@davidb> tbsaunde: espindola is looking into it (#developers)
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- # [20:44] <tbsaunde> davidb: ok?
- # [20:44] <@davidb> hmm?
- # [20:45] <@davidb> tbsaunde: oh thought you were following the bug closer than me so just thought I'd ping you
- # [20:46] <tbsaunde> davidb: not really
- # [20:47] <@davidb> okee
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- # [20:58] <@davidb> tbsaunde: maybe gcc is the path of least resistance
- # [20:59] <tbsaunde> davidb: ?
- # [20:59] <@davidb> i mean i could stop using clang
- # [20:59] <tbsaunde> yeah, that might make sense, or you could use gold
- # [21:00] <tbsaunde> I'm not sure how often the clang build breaks
- # [21:00] <@davidb> is gold breaking somewhere else though?
- # [21:00] <@davidb> oh
- # [21:00] <@davidb> it doesn't
- # [21:00] <@davidb> duh
- # [21:01] <tbsaunde> not the last time I tried
- # [21:01] * @davidb ponders the best way to get gold
- # [21:01] * @davidb suspects this has been pondered for 100s of years
- # [21:02] <tbsaunde> :p
- # [21:03] <tbsaunde> on debian you just install binutils-gold
- # [21:03] <tbsaunde> and it points /usr/bin/ld at /usr/bin/ld.gold
- # [21:07] <@davidb> ubuntu uses apt-get right?
- # [21:07] <@davidb> i guess i should use the gui
- # [21:07] <@davidb> feels silly
- # [21:08] <@davidb> done
- # [21:08] <@davidb> here goes nothing
- # [21:08] <@davidb> what is that flag to suppress build scroll?
- # [21:08] <@davidb> -s
- # [21:08] <@davidb> didn't work
- # [21:09] <tbsaunde> davidb: yeah, I usually use aptitutde or apt-get
- # [21:09] <@davidb> well build successfully - no surprise
- # [21:09] <tbsaunde> they all end up just downloading a .deb throwing it in /var/cache and invoking dpkg -i on it
- # [21:10] <@davidb> yeah
- # [21:10] <tbsaunde> not sure why -s doesn't I think I've seen that before, but I tend to just redirect output to dev null, or change terminals
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- # [21:31] <@firebot> respindola@mozilla.com requested review from dbolter@mozilla.com for attachment 617064 on bug 743680.
- # [21:31] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=743680 nor, --, mozilla14, surkov.alexander, RESO FIXED, don't export nsARIAMap.h
- # [21:32] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com granted review for attachment 617064 on bug 743680.
- # [21:32] <@davidb> tbsaunde: looks like you were right
- # [21:33] <tbsaunde> davidb: ?
- # [21:33] <@davidb> tbsaunde: espindola found the right place to include the .h
- # [21:33] <@davidb> i realize it isn't a surprise you were right :)
- # [21:34] <tbsaunde> koh
- # [21:37] <Georgevits> hi all people
- # [21:37] <tbsaunde> khi
- # [21:38] <Georgevits> i need some help
- # [21:39] <@davidb> Georgevits: sure, just ask.
- # [21:40] <Georgevits> i'm trying to translate the phrase "Inspect Application Accessible" in DOM inspector
- # [21:40] <@davidb> ok
- # [21:41] <@davidb> the "Application Accessible" part refers to an accessible object that represents the application (to asstistive tech)
- # [21:41] <@davidb> Accessible is a noun here
- # [21:41] <@davidb> and perversely, Application is sort of an adjective
- # [21:42] * @davidb forgets the right grammatical term
- # [21:42] <Georgevits> i don't know how exactly transfer it in my language
- # [21:42] <@davidb> Georgevits: which lang?
- # [21:42] <@davidb> we can try the google translate forward and back again trick
- # [21:43] <@davidb> but i suspect that will fail miserably
- # [21:45] <Georgevits> no, automatic translators fail in such cases definitely
- # [21:48] <@davidb> Georgevits: how can I help?
- # [21:48] <Georgevits> since "Application" is the noun and "Accessible" is adjective, the correct phrase is "Accessible application. i can't "capture" in my mind the opposite
- # [21:49] <Georgevits> i am Greek
- # [21:49] <@davidb> Georgevits: no, "Accessible" is a noun here. it refers to the 'accessible object' in
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- # [21:49] <@davidb> (in memory)
- # [21:50] <@davidb> it is being used as short hand for 'accessible object'
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- # [21:51] <Georgevits> could we say "Inspect Application's Accessibility"? is it the same?
- # [21:51] <@davidb> almost but not quite
- # [21:51] <@davidb> you could say "Inspect Application's Accessible Object"
- # [21:52] <@davidb> or "Inspect Application Accessible Object"
- # [21:53] <tbsaunde> davidb: the first of those seems to indicate to me the application only has one accessible object
- # [21:53] <@davidb> true
- # [21:53] <@davidb> best to leave off the 's
- # [21:53] <Georgevits> in such a case the object in what exactly is referring to?
- # [21:54] <@davidb> Georgevits: an instance of http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/accessible/src/base/nsApplicationAccessible.h#62
- # [21:54] <tbsaunde> well, so you have accessible objects like you have dom objects or frames right?
- # [21:54] <Georgevits> yes
- # [21:55] <@davidb> (oh good tbsaunde will talk this through)
- # [21:55] <tbsaunde> and ApplicationAccessible is a type of accessible object like a div is a type of dom node or a text frame is a type of frame
- # [21:56] <tbsaunde> make sense?
- # [21:56] <Georgevits> a little i think
- # [21:56] <tbsaunde> TBH I don't have a good description in english for what that object is
- # [21:57] <Georgevits> are you native english speakers?
- # [21:57] <tbsaunde> perhaps the accessible object that owns all of the tab document accessibles
- # [21:57] <tbsaunde> yes
- # [21:57] <tbsaunde> or perhaps the accessible object at the root of the tree accessible objects
- # [21:58] <Georgevits> the phrase "Inspect Application Accessible" sounds natural to you?
- # [22:00] <tbsaunde> Georgevits: yes, but perhaps I'm used to what application accessible means here
- # [22:01] <tbsaunde> err, perhaps because I'm used what it means
- # [22:01] <Georgevits> the problem also is that, this phrase is a menu item and hence i can't use many words to define it
- # [22:02] <tbsaunde> ah
- # [22:02] <@davidb> the main thing to realize is that we're breaking a rule here and using Accessible as a noun.
- # [22:03] <@davidb> "Accessible" as shorthand for "Accessible Object" and perhaps breaking that rule in Greek has a higher penalty.
- # [22:04] <@davidb> Georgevits: can you use short forms like A8e for Accessible?
- # [22:04] <@davidb> yuck
- # [22:04] <@davidb> that's too geeky
- # [22:04] <Georgevits> i almost realize it but how to do the same in my language!, retaining the same meaning
- # [22:05] <@davidb> tbsaunde: maybe we should just use "ApplicationAccessible"
- # [22:06] <@davidb> yuck
- # [22:07] <@davidb> tbsaunde: oh did espindola not confirm the fix?
- # [22:07] <tbsaunde> davidb: yeah, probably makes sense
- # [22:07] <tbsaunde> davidb: I don't understand your question
- # [22:08] <@davidb> tbsaunde: your comment "it seems like this fixes your issue in comment 26, but I have a hard time
- # [22:08] <@davidb> seeing how this bug introduced that, and it seems like it shouldn't fix comment
- # [22:08] <@davidb> 13"
- # [22:09] <tbsaunde> I have no idea what was checked
- # [22:09] <@davidb> ok well I know he recreated the issue so presumably he's happy with the fix
- # [22:09] <tbsaunde> but I have a hard time seeing how wrapper cache stuff is related to nsAccessible::Role being undefined
- # [22:11] <tbsaunde> but your error in comment 26 is different and is clearly related to wrapper cache stuff
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- # [22:11] <Georgevits> could you express it in endlish with a more standard syntax retaining the same meaning?
- # [22:11] <Georgevits> some examples?
- # [22:13] <tbsaunde> Georgevits: I think I threw a few ideas out a few minutes ago, but I don't think I can do it shortly and in more standard way
- # [22:13] <Georgevits> ok, thank you
- # [22:14] <tbsaunde> sorry :/
- # [22:14] <tbsaunde> Georgevits: you could try asking surkov when he's around he's probably the one who wrote the menu entry name
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- # [22:59] <@davidb> have a great weekend all!
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- # [23:03] <Georgevits> tbsaunde: if it was in plural (Inspect Application Accessibles), would be the same or would it be more clear?
- # [23:04] <tbsaunde> Georgevits: well, there is only one application accessible
- # [23:06] <Georgevits> i can't realize it.. you mean one accessible object?
- # [23:07] <tbsaunde> Georgevits: yes
- # [23:07] <clown> tbsaunde, Georgevits: maybe an analogy will help. There are birds, but there are different kinds of birds. There are flightless birds. There are aquatic birds.
- # [23:07] <tbsaunde> there is one accessible object that is the "application accessible object" and it has a bunch of child accessible objects for the tabs
- # [23:08] <clown> Here bird plays the same role as accessible. And "application" plays the same role as "flightless".
- # [23:09] <clown> there are different kinds of accessibles. the application accessible is one of those types.
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- # [23:21] <Mark_Capella> mother bird
- # [23:31] * Mark_Capella is now known as Mark_Capella|away
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- # Session Close: Sat Apr 21 00:00:00 2012
The end :)