/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2012-04-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 20 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  7. # [00:07] <Bryen> firebot, That's getting personal!
  8. # [00:07] <@firebot> Bryen: Sorry, I've no idea what 'That's getting personal' might be.
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  16. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  20. # [00:30] * Topic is '"build the web for everyone" | release schedule: http://mzl.la/LNc0W | accessibility list https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/accessibility'
  21. # [00:30] * Set by hub on Tue Apr 17 00:34:03
  22. # [00:32] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com granted review for attachment 616750 on bug 739882.
  23. # [00:32] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=739882 nor, --, ---, maxli, NEW, decomtaminate getting row and column count on accessible tables
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  26. # [00:57] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 747219 filed by trev.saunders@gmail.com.
  27. # [00:58] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=747219 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, decomtaminate GetCellAt() on accessible tables
  28. # [00:58] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
  29. # [01:01] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 747227 filed by trev.saunders@gmail.com.
  30. # [01:01] <@firebot> Bug 747227 was not found.
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  43. # [03:08] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 616828 on bug 745986.
  44. # [03:08] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=745986 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] Display page loading states
  45. # [03:11] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 747270 filed by eitan@monotonous.org.
  46. # [03:11] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=747270 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] UtterangeGenerator should return string lists in all generator methods
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  48. # [03:14] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from dbolter@mozilla.com for attachment 616829 on bug 747270.
  49. # [03:15] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 747272 filed by eitan@monotonous.org.
  50. # [03:15] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=747272 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] Filter out whitespace text leaves in navigation
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  76. # [04:45] * Topic is '"build the web for everyone" | release schedule: http://mzl.la/LNc0W | accessibility list https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/accessibility'
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  102. # [09:50] <@firebot> virgil.dicu@softvision.ro set status-firefox12 to verified on bug 706784.
  103. # [09:50] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=706784 cri, --, mozilla14, surkov.alexander, RESO FIXED, Firefox 8.0.1 Crash Report [@ nsLinkableAccessible::GetValue(nsAString_internal&) ] (mainly correlat
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  125. # [13:37] <@askalski> hi everyone
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  149. # [15:14] <@askalski> hi, anyone can help me with hg?
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  152. # [15:27] <Mark_Capella> askalksi: i can try but im no expert
  153. # [15:29] <@askalski> Mark_Capella, I have a patch made on linux, I want to qimport it on windows. there is no "qimport" on windows, and simple "import" failes. repos are identical (clones of mozilla-central)
  154. # [15:29] <Mark_Capella> im on windows and i use qimport ... what do you mean?
  155. # [15:32] <@askalski> Mark_Capella, what hg --version you have?
  156. # [15:32] <@askalski> and qimport just works?
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  159. # [15:33] <@askalski> do I need to qexport or something a patch? Cause applying fails :(
  160. # [15:33] <Mark_Capella> yes it works ... im pretty sure version is not an issues ... have you done a qrefresh first to update your queses?
  161. # [15:34] <@askalski> oh how much I hate windows, I can't do even a dumb copy from commandline!
  162. # [15:34] <@askalski> I get
  163. # [15:35] <Mark_Capella> winDOHs !
  164. # [15:35] <@askalski> hg qimport E:\mozi... (path to linux-repo)\bug-someting
  165. # [15:35] <@askalski> and I get
  166. # [15:35] <@askalski> hg: unknown command 'qimport'
  167. # [15:35] <@askalski> I mean, common, what kind of issue is that?
  168. # [15:36] <@askalski> it's like this meme "NO"
  169. # [15:36] <Mark_Capella> hmmm ... can you do a HG STATUS and it works?
  170. # [15:37] <Mark_Capella> my version of HG is 1.9.1 im on windows 7 btw....
  171. # [15:37] <@askalski> Mark_Capella, that's the issue. I got 2.1.2 :(. I downgrade
  172. # [15:37] <@askalski> btw, how to do hg revert --all so it really reverts
  173. # [15:38] <@askalski> and removes .orig and other trash?
  174. # [15:38] <@askalski> or is it another thing impossible on windows :D
  175. # [15:38] <Mark_Capella> remove .orig and .rej all is by hand
  176. # [15:38] <Mark_Capella> is how i do it
  177. # [15:38] <@askalski> :D
  178. # [15:39] <@askalski> common :D
  179. # [15:39] <@askalski> you know, I was not using windows for several years now
  180. # [15:39] <Mark_Capella> but hiaving a "more current" version of HG like you do shouldnt cause you to lose QIMPORT ... unless they renamed it
  181. # [15:39] <@askalski> no really, all I want is get this patch done and hope I will not come back to windows for a moment now :D
  182. # [15:40] <Mark_Capella> i can tell you how to do it without QIMPORT ... theres a trick
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  184. # [15:41] <@askalski> I am listening :)
  185. # [15:41] <Mark_Capella> you have to do a QPOP -a first ... clear out the QUEUEs
  186. # [15:42] <Mark_Capella> then do your normal "QNEW bugfoo" to create an empty patch which is applied automatically
  187. # [15:43] <@askalski> ok, thanks, I need to go for a moment now
  188. # [15:43] <Mark_Capella> then use your text editor to copy the desired patch contents into the bugfoo file in the repo\.hg\patch directory
  189. # [15:43] <Mark_Capella> ---^
  190. # [15:43] <Mark_Capella> ill be around
  191. # [15:43] <tbsaunde> askalski: did you just forget to enable the mqueue extension?
  192. # [15:46] <@askalski> tbsaunde, most probably. how to do it on widows?
  193. # [15:48] <Mark_Capella> ah -- yah - thats probably it - i have
  194. # [15:48] <Mark_Capella> [extensions]
  195. # [15:48] <Mark_Capella> hgext.mq =
  196. # [15:48] <Mark_Capella> in my mercurial.ini file
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  201. # [15:59] <@davidb> hi!
  202. # [15:59] <@davidb> askalski: good to see ya
  203. # [15:59] <@davidb> I will say that I have had a nice breakfast and am ready to get shit done.
  204. # [16:00] <@MarcoZ> Hey all!
  205. # [16:00] <@askalski> hi davidb
  206. # [16:00] <@askalski> I am fighting with windows
  207. # [16:00] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Have anyone from the build team in Toronto who could quickly look at the Accessibility branch why it hasn't been building since April 5? :)
  208. # [16:01] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Probably since the shift to Lion build machines or something of that sort.
  209. # [16:01] <@davidb> MarcoZ: branches automatically go dormant if there is no activity
  210. # [16:01] <@davidb> it should start up again automagically
  211. # [16:01] <@MarcoZ> davidb: There has been activity, lots of esp yesterday. And the OS X opt and debug syy something about an infrastructure exception on tbpl, but the summary is empty.
  212. # [16:01] <Mark_Capella> askalski: still trying?
  213. # [16:02] <@askalski> Mark_Capella, I do another checkout
  214. # [16:02] <@davidb> MarcoZ: oh hmmm, well it probably makes sense for you to ping them directly. I can mention it but I'm not sure they're in.
  215. # [16:03] <@davidb> askalski: build failure?
  216. # [16:03] <Mark_Capella> cant qimport a patch failure
  217. # [16:04] <@davidb> patch -p1 < mypatch.diff?
  218. # [16:04] <@davidb> i'm not really sure how qimport can fail
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  220. # [16:04] <@davidb> askalski: have you run hg qinit?
  221. # [16:04] <@davidb> (that creates .hg etc)
  222. # [16:05] <@MarcoZ> davidb: That's usually not necessary if you want to work with just one patch queue. The extension wasn't enabled in mercurial.ini for askalski until a few minutes ago.
  223. # [16:05] <@askalski> davidb, I tried downgrading hg, now I do checkout eating lunch :)
  224. # [16:05] <@davidb> you'll need hgext.mq= in your hgrc [extensions]
  225. # [16:05] <@davidb> ah ok
  226. # [16:05] <Mark_Capella> mercurial.ini
  227. # [16:05] * Joins: jhk (jiggy@8E6C34C1.A3F9767A.1C37C358.IP)
  228. # [16:05] <Mark_Capella> [extensions]
  229. # [16:05] <Mark_Capella> hgext.mq =
  230. # [16:05] <Mark_Capella> ???
  231. # [16:05] <@davidb> right
  232. # [16:05] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Hm, I believe they recently changed something with regards to IRC channels for build. They have #build and #buildduty now.
  233. # [16:06] <Mark_Capella> or load into the patch directory via editor
  234. # [16:06] <@davidb> MarcoZ: hmm, well they're a friendly bunch in both channels :0
  235. # [16:06] <@davidb> :)
  236. # [16:08] <@MarcoZ> I just pinged into the unknown and hope for a response. :)
  237. # [16:09] <@MarcoZ> Theoretically, if all had gone well, we would have had a nightly build with accessibility enabled from that branch today, but we haven't.
  238. # [16:10] <@davidb> We might be a good test case for them :)
  239. # [16:24] * Joins: ehsan_ (ehsan@F0B20A8D.8458880F.57F33CED.IP)
  240. # [16:34] <@askalski> does anyone know what is the "system cannot find message text for message number ..."?
  241. # [16:34] <@askalski> it's killing me, all commandline output is so disrupted
  242. # [16:36] <@askalski> tbsaunde, yes, that did the trick, thanks
  243. # [16:43] * Joins: aaronlev_ (aaronlev@moz-654DF715.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
  244. # [16:43] * Quits: aaronlev (aaronlev@moz-26EA018F.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Ping timeout)
  245. # [16:43] * aaronlev_ is now known as aaronlev
  246. # [16:43] <tbsaunde> askalski: well, that isn't an exact error message so hard to say
  247. # [16:44] <tbsaunde> I'd guess its a translation issue with stuff not fully localized and gettext sucking, but ot really sure
  248. # [16:44] <@askalski> tbsaunde, I am using a standard windows 7 english!
  249. # [16:45] <@askalski> askalski, and I haven't messed up with any regional settings. and it was installed in Toronto, so it even picked american timezone.
  250. # [16:45] <tbsaunde> odd, pastebin example?
  251. # [16:47] <@askalski> tbsaunde, http://pastebin.com/YhrnpJsM
  252. # [16:47] * Quits: ehsan_ (ehsan@F0B20A8D.8458880F.57F33CED.IP) (Input/output error)
  253. # [16:50] <tbsaunde> askalski: NFC
  254. # [16:50] <@askalski> tbsaunde, NFC?
  255. # [16:51] <tbsaunde> no f*cking clue
  256. # [16:51] <@askalski> tbsaunde, thanks :)
  257. # [16:51] <Mark_Capella> askalski: is that a true WIN machine or virtual over linux or something?
  258. # [16:51] <@askalski> Mark_Capella, it is a virtualbox, but it is looking into C: which is a simulated harddrive not netword device
  259. # [16:52] <Mark_Capella> yah ... the OS isnt configured correctly ... PATH= is wrong or system DLLS not in the right place
  260. # [16:53] <@askalski> Mark_Capella, yes, that I googled. but why? It's a standard "next next next next, whatever" installation
  261. # [16:54] <Mark_Capella> as tbsaunde said >nfc< :) thats why i do win ... linux scares me !
  262. # [16:55] <tbsaunde> askalski: if you really cared I suppose you could try running dir in visual studio ...
  263. # [16:55] <@davidb> askalski: don't use the windows shell
  264. # [16:55] <@davidb> or wait - what are you trying to do?
  265. # [16:56] <@askalski> davidb, I decided to use commandline mercurial on windows, since I don't understand the visual interface, names doesn't match
  266. # [16:56] <@askalski> *don't
  267. # [16:56] <@davidb> askalski: run the batch file to launch a shell
  268. # [16:56] <@davidb> don't use windows command shell
  269. # [16:56] <@askalski> davidb, like "cmd.bat" with single "cmd" line?
  270. # [16:57] <@askalski> or something else?
  271. # [16:57] * @davidb hunts for wiki page
  272. # [16:57] <@askalski> or is there bash for windows?
  273. # [16:57] <tbsaunde> askalski: why don't you just use mercurial in mozilla-build?
  274. # [16:57] <Mark_Capella> nope like start-msvc10-x64.bat
  275. # [16:57] <Mark_Capella> yes bach for win
  276. # [16:58] <@askalski> tbsaunde, didn't know there is one
  277. # [16:58] <@davidb> askalski: see "Opening a Build Command Prompt" here https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Developer_Guide/Build_Instructions/Windows_Prerequisites
  278. # [16:58] <tbsaunde> askalski: ... how do you build on windows then???
  279. # [16:58] <@davidb> Mark_Capella: right
  280. # [16:58] <@davidb> askalski: your world is about to get easier
  281. # [16:58] <@askalski> tbsaunde, well, I use the shell from mozilla-build, I just used external hg
  282. # [16:59] <@davidb> ohh
  283. # [16:59] <@askalski> I even use pymake
  284. # [16:59] <@davidb> why?
  285. # [16:59] <@askalski> davidb, because I didn't know that mozilla-build contains hg
  286. # [16:59] <@davidb> oh
  287. # [16:59] <tbsaunde> askalski: mozilla-build includes hg afaik so why not just use that?
  288. # [16:59] <@askalski> the name isn't very suggestive on that topic
  289. # [16:59] <@davidb> true
  290. # [16:59] <@askalski> tbsaunde, I didn't know that D:
  291. # [17:00] <@askalski> omg, and it's the right version!
  292. # [17:00] <@askalski> the 1.9.1 like in ubuntu!
  293. # [17:00] <@askalski> :D
  294. # [17:00] <tbsaunde> well, tools-for-mozillla-work-dating-from-1995-or-before is pretty long
  295. # [17:00] <Mark_Capella> windows not so bad :)
  296. # [17:01] <tbsaunde> though it describes what it contains better
  297. # [17:01] <@askalski> Mark_Capella, you will need a lot more to convince me that :D
  298. # [17:01] <Mark_Capella> :P
  299. # [17:02] <Mark_Capella> <--- started out with DOS 2.0 ...
  300. # [17:03] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@18536C17.20718EE9.79933D60.IP)
  301. # [17:03] <Mark_Capella> before that CP/M...
  302. # [17:03] <Mark_Capella> WIN7 waaaaaaaaaaaay better :)
  303. # [17:06] * @davidb adds "Note: MozillaBuild includes mercurial." to the MozillaBuild info on the wiki
  304. # [17:08] <tbsaunde> davidb what about tr and sed and bash and ... ? :p
  305. # [17:09] <@davidb> heheh
  306. # [17:13] <@MarcoZ> LOL
  307. # [17:14] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Doesn't it even mention that somewhere on the build documentation pages?
  308. # [17:14] * @MarcoZ might remember it wrong.
  309. # [17:14] <@davidb> i swear it used to
  310. # [17:14] <@davidb> but there seems to be too overlapping parallel sources of info
  311. # [17:14] <@davidb> wiki and mdn
  312. # [17:14] <@MarcoZ> Oh and I picked a cool time to ask about build problems on Accessibility. They're fighting a huge bunch of other build problems right now.
  313. # [17:14] <@davidb> heh
  314. # [17:15] <@davidb> "go away"
  315. # [17:15] <@MarcoZ> Oh I always look on MDN for build config and such related stuff.
  316. # [17:15] <@MarcoZ> No, Catlee was very very helpful!
  317. # [17:15] <@davidb> cool
  318. # [17:16] <@davidb> I'm hitting clang linker command errors on linux
  319. # [17:16] <@davidb> I would like to do real work.
  320. # [17:18] * Joins: drexler (chatzilla@moz-BD26ECCD.hsd1.vt.comcast.net)
  321. # [17:20] <@davidb> hmmm maybe ccache is cranky
  322. # [17:23] <@MarcoZ> Yeah, sounds like a clobber problem.
  323. # [17:23] <@davidb> yep - cleared cache and clobbered build dir… now building again
  324. # [17:25] <tbsaunde> davidb: bug 743680?
  325. # [17:25] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=743680 nor, --, mozilla14, surkov.alexander, RESO FIXED, don't export nsARIAMap.h
  326. # [17:25] <@davidb> tbsaunde: yes!
  327. # [17:26] <tbsaunde> davidb: want to figure it out?
  328. # [17:26] <@davidb> no
  329. # [17:26] <tbsaunde> it confuses me
  330. # [17:26] <@davidb> but i will look
  331. # [17:27] <tbsaunde> or you could switch to a faster linker or a compiler that is less anoying ;)
  332. # [17:28] <@davidb> i can't get everyone to switch
  333. # [17:28] <@davidb> this should have been backed out while we worked on a fix IMO
  334. # [17:28] <@davidb> because otherwise people will disable a11y in their builds
  335. # [17:30] <tbsaunde> why do you mind if people disable things locally?
  336. # [17:31] <@davidb> i'd rather they accidentally test a11y, for example that's how we first discovered windows tablets used a11y
  337. # [17:31] <@davidb> shaver discovered it
  338. # [17:31] * Joins: ehsan (ehsan@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
  339. # [17:32] <tbsaunde> I'm ot sure I follow
  340. # [17:32] <tbsaunde> also, not many people seem to have hit it, and sucks to be using a non-tear 1 config
  341. # [17:32] * tbsaunde notes he isn't using an approved config either as in gcc 4.6 / 7 and gold
  342. # [17:37] <@davidb> clang is much preferred in the toronto office
  343. # [17:37] <@davidb> i'm not sure in what way you don't follow
  344. # [17:39] <tbsaunde> I don't see how shaver building with a11y locally leads to discovering things windows tablets do
  345. # [17:39] * Joins: nhirata (nhirata.bu@moz-585D5EFC.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  346. # [17:39] * tbsaunde shrugs
  347. # [17:40] * Quits: logbot (logbot@moz-622AFC27.glob.com.au) (Ping timeout)
  348. # [17:40] <@davidb> he did.
  349. # [17:41] <@davidb> he noticed FF was slow and profiled it
  350. # [17:41] <@davidb> leading to bug 538530
  351. # [17:41] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=538530 nor, --, Future, english-us, NEW, a11y too easy to enable (win7 tablet pc components)
  352. # [17:42] <@davidb> shaver was supposed to lend me the tablet but it kept getting postponed
  353. # [17:42] <@davidb> it was silly times.
  354. # [17:42] <tbsaunde> davidb: sure, and people typcially use local builds for browsing?
  355. # [17:43] <@davidb> I don't have that data.
  356. # [17:43] <@davidb> If people = mozilla devs then the number is probably higher than average.
  357. # [17:44] <@davidb> Lots of bugs are reported with local builds.
  358. # [17:44] <tbsaunde> ok
  359. # [17:45] <tbsaunde> I still not particularly interested in debugging issues with random platforms though
  360. # [17:46] <@davidb> man, I wish I knew more about build tools
  361. # [17:46] <@davidb> working on three platforms makes it a bit cumbersome
  362. # [17:46] <tbsaunde> they're fairly similar in some ways, accept where they aren't
  363. # [17:47] <@davidb> the devil in the details
  364. # [17:48] <tbsaunde> if I was going to try and debug that I'd probably start including Accessible-inl.h in random files that don't include it already
  365. # [17:48] * Joins: logbot (logbot@moz-622AFC27.glob.com.au)
  366. # [17:49] * Bryen nods hello to davidb and tbsaunde
  367. # [17:49] <tbsaunde> but 1 don't have clang installed, 2 don't generally use ld.bfd which seems to be required to reproduce, and 3 can't really use try
  368. # [17:49] * @davidb waves
  369. # [17:51] <@MarcoZ> Hi Bryen :)
  370. # [17:54] <Bryen> davidb, clown By the way, here's another example of missing images in a rather critical way: http://www.bryen.com/images/wp-editor.png
  371. # [17:54] <Bryen> heya MarcoZ How's it going, dude?
  372. # [17:55] <@davidb> Bryen: did you figure out who is at fault for this issue? browser or web dev or ?
  373. # [17:56] * Quits: @askalski (akuda@moz-4C8A107E.pool85-48-91.dynamic.orange.es) (Ping timeout)
  374. # [17:57] <Bryen> davidb, tbh, I'm not sure what the answer is. clown put some comments in the bug report, he says its not entirely an authoring issue
  375. # [17:57] <Bryen> but given that this happens all over the web, even if its "their fault", I'd hope that somehow FF figures out a way to remedy their problems
  376. # [17:57] <@davidb> now where is that bug
  377. # [17:57] <Bryen> lemme find it...
  378. # [17:58] <@davidb> yeah the blame is a side issue but important to know… so that i can pass it on or not
  379. # [17:58] <Bryen> bug 746205
  380. # [17:58] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=746205 nor, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, CSS issues render color selection in FF useless
  381. # [17:59] <Bryen> apparently from the comments, this is a known issue from other bug reports over the years
  382. # [18:00] <Bryen> I'm going to go ahead and add this last image as I think it perfectly drives home the issue here.
  383. # [18:00] <@davidb> Bryen: ok yes this looks like an author error unfortunately
  384. # [18:00] <@davidb> but we can possible work around it
  385. # [18:01] <@davidb> e/y
  386. # [18:01] <@davidb> surkov: you around?
  387. # [18:01] <@surkov> yes
  388. # [18:01] <@davidb> surkov: hero (I PMed you a while back)
  389. # [18:01] <@davidb> hero/heyo :)
  390. # [18:02] <Bryen> davidb, the very idea of jumping on every website is rather scary. But... more importantly, if we don't know an image is missing, how do we know to yell at the designer? :-)
  391. # [18:03] <@davidb> Bryen: we encountered this in dojo, since background images are a very handy thing… but when backgrounds are overridden by css… the information conveyed by the image is lost.
  392. # [18:03] <@davidb> we used to try and detect this and auto convert the image to a foreground image
  393. # [18:03] <Bryen> and "dojo" is?
  394. # [18:03] <@davidb> alternative to jquery
  395. # [18:04] <@davidb> and my story is about when i was working on dojo
  396. # [18:04] <@davidb> dijit to be precise
  397. # [18:04] <Bryen> and did it end up being a nightmare or a success?
  398. # [18:05] <@davidb> mostly success but only for dojo usage
  399. # [18:05] <@davidb> since the fix was in the js
  400. # [18:05] <@davidb> background images were invented for ambience but they are used for info now
  401. # [18:05] <@davidb> so we have this pickle
  402. # [18:06] <Bryen> so at this point sounds like "contacting site admin" is still the way to go, even as daunting as it is
  403. # [18:06] <@davidb> Bryen: if linux had a high contrast mode we could detect… that would be interesting.
  404. # [18:06] <@davidb> Bryen: that should be done regardless of workarounds
  405. # [18:07] <clown> hey Bryen — I heard my name.
  406. # [18:07] <Bryen> davidb, Yes, but the downside of it is, "Oh okay, we'll fix this in our next update of such-and-such software" which could be a while down the line.
  407. # [18:07] * clown reads the log.
  408. # [18:07] <Bryen> clown, Honk! Honk!
  409. # [18:09] <clown> davidb, regarding this bug — "all" that's required is some UI to allow FF users to specify a foreground/background colour combo that does *not* affect the background images.
  410. # [18:09] <@davidb> clown: I can't find a WCAG note about background images used for info
  411. # [18:09] <Bryen> davidb, And of course, the problem for me, is I wouldn't have a clue where in CSS to tell them it needs fixes. Devs don't care about "it's broken" they seem to care more about "give us the solution"
  412. # [18:09] <@davidb> clown: yes I agree regarding the UI
  413. # [18:10] <clown> the current FF UI allows specifying the colours, but FF not only changes the background colour, it also removes the background images.
  414. # [18:10] <@davidb> we can't add UI noise, but we could bury it next to the css prefs
  415. # [18:10] <clown> why does it remove the images?
  416. # [18:10] <@davidb> correct
  417. # [18:10] <@davidb> i'd have to look at css spec
  418. # [18:10] <@davidb> it might be in error
  419. # [18:10] <@davidb> or it might be per spec
  420. # [18:11] <clown> see the style sheet I attached to the bug to show how to just change the colours and leave the images alone.
  421. # [18:11] <@davidb> or it might be hard
  422. # [18:11] <@davidb> i believe it can be done in css yes
  423. # [18:11] <clown> it isn't hard from a css point of view...
  424. # [18:11] <@davidb> right
  425. # [18:11] <Bryen> clown, did you see the link above to my screenshot for wordpress?
  426. # [18:12] <Bryen> my workaround on that is to hover my mouse on a button and hope it was tagged. But that poses another a11y problem if you are using a large mouse pointer.
  427. # [18:12] <clown> Bryen, nope (I'm currently carrying on two IRC conversations). I'll look now.
  428. # [18:13] <@davidb> only 2?
  429. # [18:13] <@davidb> luxury
  430. # [18:14] <Bryen> well I am a problem in and of myself, so that kind of grows the number of problems exponentially :-)
  431. # [18:15] <clown> Bryen, I'm having trouble locating the link in my log — can you paste it here again?
  432. # [18:16] <Bryen> clown, the screenshot for wordpress editor: http://www.bryen.com/images/wp-editor.png
  433. # [18:16] <clown> Bryen, :-) it just showed up in my email.
  434. # [18:17] * tbsaunde is now known as tbsaunde|afk
  435. # [18:17] <clown> yeah, that looks like they used background images. Bryen you could use the style sheet I attached to the browser, if you also have the Web Developer FF extension.
  436. # [18:17] <@davidb> Bryen, clown, if we don't allow the background colour to override the background image, you can guess what bug would be subsequently filed right?
  437. # [18:17] <clown> "attached to the bugzilla" I mean.
  438. # [18:18] <@davidb> for example, image you select foreground white, and the background image is white
  439. # [18:18] <@davidb> image/imagine
  440. # [18:18] <@davidb> or, mostly white
  441. # [18:18] <clown> davidb, the correct way to do it is as two options: "background color overrides all background" and "background colour overrides author's background colour only".
  442. # [18:19] <@davidb> but you would want a different option for different sites right?
  443. # [18:19] <clown> the UI already allows you to choose the colour you want.
  444. # [18:19] <Bryen> clown, Ohh, so rather than having every site adapt their css, I attach it to my extension here locally?
  445. # [18:19] <@davidb> i need to think about this to make sure i believe you understand me :)
  446. # [18:20] <Bryen> davidb, you should know by now that I never understand anything
  447. # [18:20] <@davidb> heh
  448. # [18:20] <clown> so, yeah, users might have to go in and change the colour on a site-by-site basis, but maybe that's rare or infrequent.
  449. # [18:20] <Bryen> and I don't know if my "nod head with eyes glazed over" has the same effect now that my vision is decreasing more rapidly
  450. # [18:20] <clown> Bryen, re: " I attach it to my extension here locally". That's right. Web Developer allows you to apply your own CSS.
  451. # [18:21] <Bryen> clown, Ok I'll do that. It will at least get me back to work, so to speak. Although it still hides the problem that affects the masses.
  452. # [18:21] <@davidb> clown: the UI might be condensed as a checkbox "Remove background images" right?
  453. # [18:21] <clown> the draw back is that the minute you navigate away, then you have to re-apply it.
  454. # [18:22] <Bryen> ohhh
  455. # [18:22] <clown> davidb: I'm not a UI designer :-), but that sounds okay.
  456. # [18:22] <clown> I'd go for "Do not remove background images".
  457. # [18:23] <@davidb> why?
  458. # [18:23] <@davidb> meh
  459. # [18:23] <clown> because the UI that is there has been there for years — and it's created an expectation of removal as the default. Maybe...
  460. # [18:23] <clown> I agree, meh.
  461. # [18:24] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 746205 from UNCONFIRMED to NEW.
  462. # [18:24] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=746205 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, CSS issues render color selection in FF useless
  463. # [18:24] <@davidb> onward!
  464. # [18:24] * @davidb goes to eat
  465. # [18:24] <clown> davidb, eating is a good idea.
  466. # [18:25] <clown> actually, davidb, I've change my mind — your check box label is better, since it make removing the image the marked case. the default is to keep them.
  467. # [18:25] <clown> did I mention I'm not a UI designer?
  468. # [18:26] <Bryen> clown, ok so presumably, site designers can fix this problem before it gets to us. How/what do I say when I file with them?
  469. # [18:26] <Bryen> just attach your css stylesheet to show them the proper coding?
  470. # [18:30] <clown> Bryen, no that won't work.
  471. # [18:31] * @MarcoZ is off for the weekend. See you all on Monday!
  472. # [18:31] * Quits: @MarcoZ (Daily@moz-2B6D3DD5.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Weekend!)
  473. # [18:31] <clown> what would be best is if they didn't use background images for informative content.
  474. # [18:32] <clown> or, if they use background images, they have to provide an alternative for users who view their site in another way.
  475. # [18:34] <Bryen> I see
  476. # [18:34] <clown> you want inverse, right? This isn't a case of "high contrast mode" is it?
  477. # [18:34] <Bryen> so there's no magic line in CSS that I should tell people to use?
  478. # [18:34] <clown> if there is a magic line, I don't know what it is.
  479. # [18:34] <Bryen> no this isn't high-contrast mode, this is color selection
  480. # [18:35] <Bryen> hmm
  481. # [18:35] <clown> because, in Windows, high contrast mode gives the same result — the background images are eliminated.
  482. # [18:36] <clown> and, as davidb noted, dojo/dijit compensates internally for that. that is, if the gui is made using dojo, and the system is put into high contrast mode, dojo fixes itself with respect to background images.
  483. # [18:36] <clown> jquery may to the same.
  484. # [18:37] <clown> "may do the same".
  485. # [18:38] <Bryen> clown, hmm. well my GNOME desktop is set to high-contrast. But of course content within an app doesn't necessarily follow the high-contrast mode. FF, for example.
  486. # [18:38] <clown> yeah, I noticed that. On Windows, high contrast mode affects *everything*.
  487. # [18:40] <clown> for sake of completeness: on the Mac it switches to high contrast everywhere, but it doesn't affect background images.
  488. # [18:40] <clown> ah, consistency across platforms!
  489. # [18:40] <clown> not...
  490. # [18:40] <clown> brb
  491. # [18:45] <@davidb> Bryen: does the FF UI respect high contrast mode? (not talking about content)
  492. # [18:45] <clown> Bryen, there might be a WCAG guideline about background images that you could cite when you contact site designers. But, I'm not a WCAG expert, either.
  493. # [18:45] <@davidb> clown: I couldn't find one
  494. # [18:46] <@davidb> clown: ask Jan?
  495. # [18:46] <clown> davidb: Jan's not here, or I would.
  496. # [18:46] <@davidb> ok
  497. # [18:50] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com granted review for attachment 616829 on bug 747270.
  498. # [18:50] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=747270 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] UtterangeGenerator should return string lists in all generator methods
  499. # [18:50] <Bryen> davidb, the "skeleton" of FF is respected yes
  500. # [18:50] <Bryen> not actual web pages.
  501. # [18:50] <@davidb> Bryen: yeah, we are not supposed to mess with content really
  502. # [18:51] <@davidb> because chaos
  503. # [18:51] <@davidb> CHAOS!
  504. # [18:51] <Bryen> agreed
  505. # [18:51] * @eeejay flaccidly waves
  506. # [18:51] <clown> for a visual, davidb, take a look at one of Bryen's screenshots: https://bug746205.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=615760
  507. # [18:51] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=746205 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, CSS issues render color selection in FF useless
  508. # [18:51] <@davidb> eeejay: that conjures an image I wish it didn't
  509. # [18:52] <Bryen> ahh eeejay is here. He can solve all our problems just like that! (snaps fingers but no sound comes out)
  510. # [18:52] <clown> davidb, an elephant raising its trunk?
  511. # [18:52] <@eeejay> davidb, oh, yeah.
  512. # [18:52] <@davidb> a snap is actually your finger breaking the speed of sound
  513. # [18:52] <@davidb> clown: fnort!
  514. # [18:52] <@davidb> must be friday
  515. # [18:52] <Bryen> davidb, How the hell do you know such things! :-)
  516. # [18:53] <clown> i predicted that, davidb :-)
  517. # [18:53] <@davidb> Bryen: I follow OMGFacts on twitter
  518. # [18:53] <@davidb> many of the things they tweet are news to me
  519. # [18:53] <Bryen> you have time to follow twitter?
  520. # [18:53] <@davidb> like about the octopus...
  521. # [18:53] <clown> and everyone knows that OMGFacts accuracy is beyond dispute.
  522. # [18:53] <@davidb> The Argonaut octopus
  523. # [18:54] <@davidb> http://www.omg-facts.com/Facts/The-Argonaut-is-a-type-of-octopus-that-h/50407
  524. # [18:54] <@davidb> clown: heheh
  525. # [18:54] * clown is a cynic.
  526. # [18:54] <@davidb> I'll never look at our CFL football team the same way again.
  527. # [18:55] <clown> how many non-torontonians will get that?
  528. # [18:55] <@eeejay> did you guys know i started a side-project the other day that will make me rich?
  529. # [18:55] <@eeejay> http://isitraininginseattle.com/
  530. # [18:55] <@davidb> eeejay: when will you add google ads?
  531. # [18:55] <Bryen> You don't fish for octopus in Lake Ontario?
  532. # [18:55] <@eeejay> davidb, must resist the urge
  533. # [18:55] <@davidb> Bryen: I can't say I have.
  534. # [18:56] <@eeejay> had 50 hits yesterday, that is at least $2.50 lost...
  535. # [18:56] <@davidb> eeejay: that is a pretty cool site actually
  536. # [18:56] <Bryen> eeejay, OMG No one else ever thought of that domain name? :-)
  537. # [18:56] <@eeejay> i know!
  538. # [18:56] <@davidb> I really need to get to work on http://www.areweaccessibleyet.com/
  539. # [18:56] <clown> eeejay: what colour are the clouds?
  540. # [18:56] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@18536C17.20718EE9.79933D60.IP) (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
  541. # [18:56] <@eeejay> davidb, seems accurate to me
  542. # [18:57] <@davidb> we need graphs, charts, cartoons!
  543. # [18:57] <@eeejay> clown, grayish-green
  544. # [18:58] <Bryen> davidb, and you need to make the website highly inaccessible.
  545. # [18:58] <@davidb> cartoons!
  546. # [18:58] <Mark_Capella> http://itsclobberingtime.blogspot.com/2011/05/fantastic-four-friday.html
  547. # [18:59] <@davidb> ah the thing
  548. # [18:59] <Bryen> davidb, and make sure all the cartoons disappear when you change background colors.
  549. # [18:59] <@davidb> right
  550. # [19:00] <@davidb> or i can learn from http://www.evangelcathedral.net/
  551. # [19:00] * tbsaunde|afk is now known as tbsaunde
  552. # [19:00] <clown> Fantistic Four Friday? Fantastic idea.
  553. # [19:00] <@davidb> now we need 3 more
  554. # [19:01] <Bryen> things are better now, tbsaunde came back.
  555. # [19:03] * Quits: @surkov (surkov@DD69D9E4.55CAE15D.34044A7F.IP) (Quit: surkov)
  556. # [19:04] * Quits: jhk (jiggy@8E6C34C1.A3F9767A.1C37C358.IP) (Connection reset by peer)
  557. # [19:19] <@eeejay> davidb, holy crap! is that site for real?
  558. # [19:21] <@davidb> it is flash gone wild
  559. # [19:22] <clown> yes, but is it accessible? ;-)
  560. # [19:24] <Bryen> A church that offers modelling?
  561. # [19:25] * Quits: peteb-away (ptbrunet@moz-E9B02845.austin.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout)
  562. # [19:25] * Bryen imagines what it would be like if 9-1-1 calls were preceded with a flash intro like this
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  571. # [20:27] <@davidb> tbsaunde: espindola is looking into it (#developers)
  572. # [20:43] * Quits: aaronlev (aaronlev@moz-654DF715.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) (Quit: aaronlev)
  573. # [20:44] <tbsaunde> davidb: ok?
  574. # [20:44] <@davidb> hmm?
  575. # [20:45] <@davidb> tbsaunde: oh thought you were following the bug closer than me so just thought I'd ping you
  576. # [20:46] <tbsaunde> davidb: not really
  577. # [20:47] <@davidb> okee
  578. # [20:54] * Joins: aaronlev (aaronlev@moz-654DF715.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
  579. # [20:58] <@davidb> tbsaunde: maybe gcc is the path of least resistance
  580. # [20:59] <tbsaunde> davidb: ?
  581. # [20:59] <@davidb> i mean i could stop using clang
  582. # [20:59] <tbsaunde> yeah, that might make sense, or you could use gold
  583. # [21:00] <tbsaunde> I'm not sure how often the clang build breaks
  584. # [21:00] <@davidb> is gold breaking somewhere else though?
  585. # [21:00] <@davidb> oh
  586. # [21:00] <@davidb> it doesn't
  587. # [21:00] <@davidb> duh
  588. # [21:01] <tbsaunde> not the last time I tried
  589. # [21:01] * @davidb ponders the best way to get gold
  590. # [21:01] * @davidb suspects this has been pondered for 100s of years
  591. # [21:02] <tbsaunde> :p
  592. # [21:03] <tbsaunde> on debian you just install binutils-gold
  593. # [21:03] <tbsaunde> and it points /usr/bin/ld at /usr/bin/ld.gold
  594. # [21:07] <@davidb> ubuntu uses apt-get right?
  595. # [21:07] <@davidb> i guess i should use the gui
  596. # [21:07] <@davidb> feels silly
  597. # [21:08] <@davidb> done
  598. # [21:08] <@davidb> here goes nothing
  599. # [21:08] <@davidb> what is that flag to suppress build scroll?
  600. # [21:08] <@davidb> -s
  601. # [21:08] <@davidb> didn't work
  602. # [21:09] <tbsaunde> davidb: yeah, I usually use aptitutde or apt-get
  603. # [21:09] <@davidb> well build successfully - no surprise
  604. # [21:09] <tbsaunde> they all end up just downloading a .deb throwing it in /var/cache and invoking dpkg -i on it
  605. # [21:10] <@davidb> yeah
  606. # [21:10] <tbsaunde> not sure why -s doesn't I think I've seen that before, but I tend to just redirect output to dev null, or change terminals
  607. # [21:14] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  608. # [21:14] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
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  613. # [21:31] <@firebot> respindola@mozilla.com requested review from dbolter@mozilla.com for attachment 617064 on bug 743680.
  614. # [21:31] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=743680 nor, --, mozilla14, surkov.alexander, RESO FIXED, don't export nsARIAMap.h
  615. # [21:32] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com granted review for attachment 617064 on bug 743680.
  616. # [21:32] <@davidb> tbsaunde: looks like you were right
  617. # [21:33] <tbsaunde> davidb: ?
  618. # [21:33] <@davidb> tbsaunde: espindola found the right place to include the .h
  619. # [21:33] <@davidb> i realize it isn't a surprise you were right :)
  620. # [21:34] <tbsaunde> koh
  621. # [21:37] <Georgevits> hi all people
  622. # [21:37] <tbsaunde> khi
  623. # [21:38] <Georgevits> i need some help
  624. # [21:39] <@davidb> Georgevits: sure, just ask.
  625. # [21:40] <Georgevits> i'm trying to translate the phrase "Inspect Application Accessible" in DOM inspector
  626. # [21:40] <@davidb> ok
  627. # [21:41] <@davidb> the "Application Accessible" part refers to an accessible object that represents the application (to asstistive tech)
  628. # [21:41] <@davidb> Accessible is a noun here
  629. # [21:41] <@davidb> and perversely, Application is sort of an adjective
  630. # [21:42] * @davidb forgets the right grammatical term
  631. # [21:42] <Georgevits> i don't know how exactly transfer it in my language
  632. # [21:42] <@davidb> Georgevits: which lang?
  633. # [21:42] <@davidb> we can try the google translate forward and back again trick
  634. # [21:43] <@davidb> but i suspect that will fail miserably
  635. # [21:45] <Georgevits> no, automatic translators fail in such cases definitely
  636. # [21:48] <@davidb> Georgevits: how can I help?
  637. # [21:48] <Georgevits> since "Application" is the noun and "Accessible" is adjective, the correct phrase is "Accessible application. i can't "capture" in my mind the opposite
  638. # [21:49] <Georgevits> i am Greek
  639. # [21:49] <@davidb> Georgevits: no, "Accessible" is a noun here. it refers to the 'accessible object' in
  640. # [21:49] * Joins: drexler (chatzilla@moz-BD26ECCD.hsd1.vt.comcast.net)
  641. # [21:49] <@davidb> (in memory)
  642. # [21:50] <@davidb> it is being used as short hand for 'accessible object'
  643. # [21:50] * Quits: drexler (chatzilla@moz-BD26ECCD.hsd1.vt.comcast.net) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204])
  644. # [21:51] <Georgevits> could we say "Inspect Application's Accessibility"? is it the same?
  645. # [21:51] <@davidb> almost but not quite
  646. # [21:51] <@davidb> you could say "Inspect Application's Accessible Object"
  647. # [21:52] <@davidb> or "Inspect Application Accessible Object"
  648. # [21:53] <tbsaunde> davidb: the first of those seems to indicate to me the application only has one accessible object
  649. # [21:53] <@davidb> true
  650. # [21:53] <@davidb> best to leave off the 's
  651. # [21:53] <Georgevits> in such a case the object in what exactly is referring to?
  652. # [21:54] <@davidb> Georgevits: an instance of http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/accessible/src/base/nsApplicationAccessible.h#62
  653. # [21:54] <tbsaunde> well, so you have accessible objects like you have dom objects or frames right?
  654. # [21:54] <Georgevits> yes
  655. # [21:55] <@davidb> (oh good tbsaunde will talk this through)
  656. # [21:55] <tbsaunde> and ApplicationAccessible is a type of accessible object like a div is a type of dom node or a text frame is a type of frame
  657. # [21:56] <tbsaunde> make sense?
  658. # [21:56] <Georgevits> a little i think
  659. # [21:56] <tbsaunde> TBH I don't have a good description in english for what that object is
  660. # [21:57] <Georgevits> are you native english speakers?
  661. # [21:57] <tbsaunde> perhaps the accessible object that owns all of the tab document accessibles
  662. # [21:57] <tbsaunde> yes
  663. # [21:57] <tbsaunde> or perhaps the accessible object at the root of the tree accessible objects
  664. # [21:58] <Georgevits> the phrase "Inspect Application Accessible" sounds natural to you?
  665. # [22:00] <tbsaunde> Georgevits: yes, but perhaps I'm used to what application accessible means here
  666. # [22:01] <tbsaunde> err, perhaps because I'm used what it means
  667. # [22:01] <Georgevits> the problem also is that, this phrase is a menu item and hence i can't use many words to define it
  668. # [22:02] <tbsaunde> ah
  669. # [22:02] <@davidb> the main thing to realize is that we're breaking a rule here and using Accessible as a noun.
  670. # [22:03] <@davidb> "Accessible" as shorthand for "Accessible Object" and perhaps breaking that rule in Greek has a higher penalty.
  671. # [22:04] <@davidb> Georgevits: can you use short forms like A8e for Accessible?
  672. # [22:04] <@davidb> yuck
  673. # [22:04] <@davidb> that's too geeky
  674. # [22:04] <Georgevits> i almost realize it but how to do the same in my language!, retaining the same meaning
  675. # [22:05] <@davidb> tbsaunde: maybe we should just use "ApplicationAccessible"
  676. # [22:06] <@davidb> yuck
  677. # [22:07] <@davidb> tbsaunde: oh did espindola not confirm the fix?
  678. # [22:07] <tbsaunde> davidb: yeah, probably makes sense
  679. # [22:07] <tbsaunde> davidb: I don't understand your question
  680. # [22:08] <@davidb> tbsaunde: your comment "it seems like this fixes your issue in comment 26, but I have a hard time
  681. # [22:08] <@davidb> seeing how this bug introduced that, and it seems like it shouldn't fix comment
  682. # [22:08] <@davidb> 13"
  683. # [22:09] <tbsaunde> I have no idea what was checked
  684. # [22:09] <@davidb> ok well I know he recreated the issue so presumably he's happy with the fix
  685. # [22:09] <tbsaunde> but I have a hard time seeing how wrapper cache stuff is related to nsAccessible::Role being undefined
  686. # [22:11] <tbsaunde> but your error in comment 26 is different and is clearly related to wrapper cache stuff
  687. # [22:11] * Quits: jhk (jiggy@8E6C34C1.A3F9767A.1C37C358.IP) (Ping timeout)
  688. # [22:11] <Georgevits> could you express it in endlish with a more standard syntax retaining the same meaning?
  689. # [22:11] <Georgevits> some examples?
  690. # [22:13] <tbsaunde> Georgevits: I think I threw a few ideas out a few minutes ago, but I don't think I can do it shortly and in more standard way
  691. # [22:13] <Georgevits> ok, thank you
  692. # [22:14] <tbsaunde> sorry :/
  693. # [22:14] <tbsaunde> Georgevits: you could try asking surkov when he's around he's probably the one who wrote the menu entry name
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  700. # [22:59] <@davidb> have a great weekend all!
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  702. # [23:03] <Georgevits> tbsaunde: if it was in plural (Inspect Application Accessibles), would be the same or would it be more clear?
  703. # [23:04] <tbsaunde> Georgevits: well, there is only one application accessible
  704. # [23:06] <Georgevits> i can't realize it.. you mean one accessible object?
  705. # [23:07] <tbsaunde> Georgevits: yes
  706. # [23:07] <clown> tbsaunde, Georgevits: maybe an analogy will help. There are birds, but there are different kinds of birds. There are flightless birds. There are aquatic birds.
  707. # [23:07] <tbsaunde> there is one accessible object that is the "application accessible object" and it has a bunch of child accessible objects for the tabs
  708. # [23:08] <clown> Here bird plays the same role as accessible. And "application" plays the same role as "flightless".
  709. # [23:09] <clown> there are different kinds of accessibles. the application accessible is one of those types.
  710. # [23:12] * Quits: clown (clown@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
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  712. # [23:21] <Mark_Capella> mother bird
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  715. # Session Close: Sat Apr 21 00:00:00 2012

The end :)