/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2012-06-13 / end
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- # Session Start: Wed Jun 13 00:00:01 2012
- # Session Ident: #accessibility
- # [00:08] * Parts: clown (clown@moz-FCF97CD1.dsl.bell.ca)
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- # [00:15] <@hub> bug 763819
- # [00:15] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=763819 cri, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Crash with a11y, <select>, moving <option> between documents
- # [00:15] <@hub> this is with the DOM fuzzer
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- # [00:56] <tbsaunde> hub: what about it? I somehow haven't found time to think about it yet
- # [00:59] <@hub> nothing special, I thought it was mac specific at first
- # [00:59] <@hub> that's it
- # [01:00] <tbsaunde> hub: yeah, I'd have guess ed not, just I think jesse usually fuzzes on macs
- # [01:00] <@hub> yeah
- # [01:00] <@hub> I was mistaken
- # [01:00] <@hub> :-)
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- # [01:10] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 764203 filed by eitan@monotonous.org.
- # [01:10] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=764203 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Don't notify pivot change if it has not actually changed
- # [01:12] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 632454 on bug 764203.
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- # [01:42] <@firebot> karlt@mozbugz.karlt.net changed the Status on bug 760291 from UNCONFIRMED to NEW.
- # [01:42] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=760291 nor, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, ui.key.accelKey FF 13b6+ Linux 32 bit over X11 to OSX Lion is broken
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- # [01:46] <@firebot> markcapella@twcny.rr.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 759817 from --- to mozilla16.
- # [01:46] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
- # [01:46] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=759817 nor, --, mozilla16, markcapella, ASSI, Repair an inheritance issue
- # [01:48] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 764211 filed by dbolter@mozilla.com.
- # [01:48] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=764211 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] Quick nav key are swallowed in awesome bar.
- # [01:51] <@askalski> davidb, check e-mail
- # [01:51] <@askalski> I got to go now
- # [01:52] <@davidb> ok
- # [01:52] <@davidb> i saw you updated github
- # [01:52] <@davidb> thanks
- # [01:52] <@askalski> I update all the time
- # [01:52] <@davidb> askalski: coming to the meeting?
- # [01:52] <@askalski> davidb, sure
- # [01:52] <@davidb> ok cool
- # [01:52] <@askalski> see you tomorrow
- # [01:52] <@davidb> ciao
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- # [02:34] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com granted review for attachment 632374 on bug 764119.
- # [02:34] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=764119 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] Add preference for explore by touch
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- # [03:33] <@firebot> hub@mozilla.com cancelled review?(surkov.alexander@gm ail.com) for attachment 632388 on bug 758799.
- # [03:33] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=758799 nor, --, ---, hub, NEW, [Mac] remove mIsExpired from mozAccessible
- # [03:34] <@firebot> hub@mozilla.com requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 632489 on bug 758799.
- # [03:34] <@hub> hg blame told me the line was wrong in my patch
- # [03:34] <@hub> *sigh*
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- # [03:39] <@davidb> it isn't fun when the tools get in the way
- # [03:40] <@firebot> mbrubeck@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 762851 from ASSIGNED to RESOLVED.
- # [03:40] <@firebot> mbrubeck@mozilla.com set the Resolution field on bug 762851 to FIXED.
- # [03:40] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=762851 nor, --, mozilla16, marco.zehe, RESO FIXED, [AccessFu] Introduce single letter quick navigation keys
- # [03:41] <@firebot> mbrubeck@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 760354 from ASSIGNED to RESOLVED.
- # [03:42] <@firebot> mbrubeck@mozilla.com set the Resolution field on bug 760354 to FIXED.
- # [03:42] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=760354 nor, --, mozilla16, markcapella, RESO FIXED, implement IsInDocument as accessible flag
- # [03:51] <@davidb> ok - that's enough
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- # [04:01] <capella> !seen nickc
- # [04:01] <@firebot> nickc was last seen 8 weeks, 4 days, 7 hours, 58 minutes and 39 seconds ago,
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- # [06:59] <@firebot> markcapella@twcny.rr.com changed the Status on bug 760878 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
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- # [07:43] <@firebot> masayuki@d-toybox.com requested review from karlt@mozbugz.karlt .net for attachment 632550 on bug 751749.
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- # [07:52] <@firebot> masayuki@d-toybox.com cancelled review?(karlt@mozbugz.karlt .net) for attachment 632550 on bug 751749.
- # [07:52] <@firebot> masayuki@d-toybox.com requested review from karlt@mozbugz.karlt .net for attachment 632551 on bug 751749.
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- # [08:28] <@firebot> markcapella@twcny.rr.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 632564 on bug 761064.
- # [08:28] <@firebot> markcapella@twcny.rr.com changed the Status on bug 761064 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
- # [08:28] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=761064 nor, --, ---, markcapella, ASSI, mTreeView null check aren't necessary for XUL tree item/cell classes
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- # [09:20] <capella> firebot: bedtime
- # [09:20] <@firebot> capella: I seem to recall that bedtime is Say goodnight Dick!
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- # [13:17] <@askalski> hi everyone
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- # [13:23] <tbsaunde> hi askalski
- # [13:24] <@askalski> hi tbsaunde :)
- # [13:30] <@firebot> vinceyang15@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 632634 on bug 757503.
- # [13:30] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=757503 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, decomtaminate GetColumnIndexAt/GetRowIndexAt/GetRowAndColumnIndicesAt on accessible tables
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- # [13:42] <@askalski> tbsaunde, got a minute?
- # [13:42] <@askalski> tbsaunde, David suggested to test whether IID_* interfaces are correctly implemented
- # [13:43] <@askalski> tbsaunde, but googling, I have not found a code that actually clients these interfaces, MSDN does not cover them
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- # [14:28] <tbsaunde> askalski: not sure whatyou mean by "correctly implemnt" or what exactly you want to know
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- # [14:30] <@askalski> tbsaunde, well, for example I was asked to QueryInterface for IAccessibleImage and play with it's methods
- # [14:30] <tbsaunde> askalski: so, what do you want to know?
- # [14:31] <@askalski> tbsaunde, but most importantly, I cannot find IAccessibleImage anywhere in MSDN, so I am kinda in trouble to query for it. I need at least the GUID, which I can take from our code, but what's the point? I should test whether the OS know how to use FF without any knowing of FF internals
- # [14:31] <@askalski> tbsaunde, I need to know how a third party application uses IAccessibleImage (as example)
- # [14:32] <@askalski> askalski, nvda has very limited code for that, just c++
- # [14:33] <tbsaunde> askalski: its a ia2 interface
- # [14:33] <@askalski> tbsaunde, is there msdn for ia2?
- # [14:33] <@askalski> tbsaunde, or any similar reference?
- # [14:33] <tbsaunde> askalski: somewhere on linux foundation
- # [14:34] <tbsaunde> askalski: we have the idl for it in other-licences/ia2
- # [14:35] <@askalski> tbsaunde, and this idl is bounding for all parties?
- # [14:35] <tbsaunde> askalski: for the iid if you include AccessibleImage.h or _i.c or whatever it is you get a macro for it
- # [14:36] <tbsaunde> askalski: not sure exactly what you mean, but I think the answer is yes
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- # [14:37] <@askalski> tbsaunde, well, if I was writing a screen reader for windows, I would look for a reference at MSDN, not MDN. Testing Firefox for correctness in compatibilty to Firefox is pointless, right?
- # [14:38] <@askalski> tbsaunde, I wanted to find some general agreement, and test whether Firefox follow it
- # [14:38] <@askalski> tbsaunde, I guess that's what I have been asked for, but I might be wrong :)
- # [14:39] <tbsaunde> askalski: our copy of the idl should be equivelent to the conical copy on linux foundation
- # [14:39] <@askalski> askalski, ok. so I just QueryInterface for this GUID, and do the calls, right?
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- # [14:40] <tbsaunde> askalski: that would be reasonable test
- # [14:40] <tbsaunde> and probably making sure QI succeeds is more important than really calling the other methods
- # [14:40] <@askalski> tbsaunde, btw, you thanked me a lot poiting a proper location of IAccessible2.idl, I was looking for it in public
- # [14:41] <tbsaunde> askalski: ok, for mscom interfaces we manually decl all of the vfuncs so you can just readthe headers too
- # [14:42] <tbsaunde> like the funcs on IAccessibleImage also get decld in ia2AccessibleImage.h
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- # [15:06] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Status on bug 759817 from ASSIGNED to RESOLVED.
- # [15:06] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk set the Resolution field on bug 759817 to FIXED.
- # [15:06] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=759817 nor, --, mozilla16, markcapella, RESO FIXED, Repair an inheritance issue
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- # [15:29] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com granted review for attachment 629732 on bug 761102.
- # [15:29] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=761102 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, focus may be missed when ARIA active-descendant is changed on active composite widget
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- # [15:35] <@askalski> davidb, hi
- # [15:35] <@askalski> davidb, who should I ash a MSAA specific question?
- # [15:37] <@davidb> askalski: for now, not me… or you can look at http://dxr.lanedo.com/mozilla-central/accessible/src/msaa/
- # [15:37] <@davidb> (meeting)
- # [15:38] * davidb is now known as davidb|mtg
- # [15:38] <@askalski> tbsaunde, hi
- # [15:38] <@askalski> tbsaunde, I wonder
- # [15:38] <@davidb|mtg> askalski: MarcoZ might nkow
- # [15:38] <@askalski> tbsaunde, why put_accValue is not implemented
- # [15:38] <@askalski> tbsaunde, it's still in standard
- # [15:40] <@davidb|mtg> askalski: "put"?
- # [15:42] <@askalski> davidb|mtg, yes, there are two "put" methods - put_accValue and put_accName. put_accName is discontinued (according to MSAA), so serwers (we) return E_NOIMPL, and it's ok. But we also return E_NOIMPL for put_accValue, which is still in standard
- # [15:42] <@davidb|mtg> yeah as far as i know it never really took hold
- # [15:42] <@askalski> davidb|mtg, "took hold"?
- # [15:43] <@davidb|mtg> nobody used it
- # [15:43] <@davidb|mtg> it is fragile anyways - relies on a certain kind of app dev pattern
- # [15:44] <@davidb|mtg> i could see it being useful for sliders
- # [15:44] <@davidb|mtg> the dream is speech input
- # [15:44] <@davidb|mtg> ok bbiab
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- # [15:52] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 764367 filed by Ms2ger@gmail.com.
- # [15:52] <@firebot> Ms2ger@gmail.com requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 632674 on bug 764367.
- # [15:53] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=764367 is not accessible
- # [15:55] <tbsaunde> askalski: hi
- # [15:55] <tbsaunde> askalski: I basically what davidb said its hard, and nobody cared we don't implement it
- # [15:56] <@askalski> tbsaunde, ok
- # [15:56] <@askalski> tbsaunde, just wondering whether to file bug or not
- # [15:56] <@askalski> and I guess 'not' is the answer
- # [16:00] <tbsaunde> askalski: yeah, not worth it
- # [16:00] <tbsaunde> askalski: did you have another question?
- # [16:03] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com cancelled review?(trev.saunders@gmail .com) for attachment 631561 on bug 761589.
- # [16:03] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=761589 nor, --, ---, hub, NEW, Make accessibility.force_disabled cross platform
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- # [16:14] <@MarcoZ> tbsaunde: Do we want to leave review of this huge patch in bug 764367 to surkov, or would you take it so it gets dealt with faster? I know surkov said he'd still do reviews, but do we have to bother him with this?
- # [16:14] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=764367 nor, --, ---, Ms2ger, ASSI, Fix build warnings in accessible/
- # [16:19] <tbsaunde> MarcoZ: I just replied to ms2ger
- # [16:26] <tbsaunde> also, I have atleast 2 20k+ patches in my queue that are imo more important
- # [16:30] <@askalski> tbsaunde, no, I was lunching
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- # [16:34] <@MarcoZ> tbsaunde: Thanks! Sorry, didn't realize you are vacationing, or trying to, as well!
- # [16:38] <@hub> let me grab my ipad
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- # [16:42] <@davidb|mtg> on my way!
- # [16:45] <@askalski> reconnecting
- # [16:47] <@davidb|mtg> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/Meetings/2012-06-13#Agenda
- # [16:48] <@davidb|mtg> [ON TRACK] Increase performance by 30% for Speech Recognition use cases.
- # [16:48] <@davidb|mtg> [ON TRACK] Have usable mozbase platform automated tests.
- # [16:48] <@davidb|mtg> [ON TRACK] Get Android a11y into a release channel.
- # [16:48] <@davidb|mtg> [AT RISK] Have a working prototype of a B2G screen reader.
- # [16:48] <@davidb|mtg> [ON TRACK] Have an alpha version of a mobile gesture addon.
- # [16:48] <@davidb|mtg> [ON TRACK] Bring OSX Firefox a11y on par with Win/Linux
- # [16:48] <@davidb|mtg> other: canvas bounds work?, UIA?, open a11y alliance, ARIA conformance...
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- # [17:11] * @MarcoZ blogs about quick navigation keys.
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- # [17:31] <icaaq> MarcoZ: quick navigation keys = accesskey attribute?
- # [17:33] <@davidb|mtg> icaaq: bug 762851
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- # [17:55] <@MarcoZ> icaaq: No, a blindness specific feature. I just published a blog post about them, too. http://www.marcozehe.de/2012/06/13/quick-navigation-keys-now-in-nightly-builds-of-firefox-native-for-android/
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- # [18:22] <@MarcoZ> davidb|mtg: My humble personality doesn't allow me to brag about this so publically! :) Thanks! :)
- # [18:22] <@davidb|mtg> right that's why i pointed it out
- # [18:22] * davidb|mtg is now known as davidb
- # [18:23] <@MarcoZ> eeejay: I had an idea about how landmarks should be implemented in AccessFu. Wanna hear it?
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- # [18:30] <@MarcoZ> Maybe he doesn't. :D
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- # [18:41] <@davidb> heh
- # [18:41] <@davidb> bbiab
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- # [18:56] <eeejay> MarcoZ, sorry! was away
- # [18:56] <eeejay> i'm headed out again in 5
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- # [18:57] <icaaq> hmm, I'm a bit confused regarding labels and buttons, in search forms. I always put a label that is associated to the input field. but I've seen examples where they use the title attribute on the input. as Steve Faulkner says: here http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2010/11/using-the-html-title-attribute/ "Providing a programmatically associated label for a control in situations where a visible text label would be redundant" <input
- # [19:04] <eeejay> bbiab
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- # [19:23] <@MarcoZ> icaaq: The title attribute is a real beast, because in HTML4 and earlier, and also XHTML, it was never properly specified when and when not to use it. The result is a wild growth of instances where it's used, appropriately and inappropriately, that many tend to just ignore them.
- # [19:24] <@MarcoZ> My thinking is that, if you have a label, you do not use a title. Never ever.
- # [19:26] <icaaq> MarcoZ: ok, but the other example where the button acts as a label, is that a good way?
- # [19:28] <@MarcoZ> icaaq: Dunno actually. Without WAI-ARIA, there is no way to associate its label with the input that is not the button. And it does feel hacky.
- # [19:29] <icaaq> agreed
- # [19:29] <@MarcoZ> OK, off for the evening. see you all tomorrow!
- # [19:29] <icaaq> I think i'll stick with my labels, even if it's redundant :)
- # [19:30] <@MarcoZ> :)
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- # [20:16] <capella> davidb: can you tell me when surkov returns from vacation?
- # [20:18] <@davidb> capella: about 1 month from now
- # [20:19] <capella> yow! tbsaunde is taking up the slack / review etc until then?
- # [20:19] * clown_mtg is now known as clown
- # [20:20] <@davidb> you can ping me trevor hub etc
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- # [20:20] <@davidb> for cleanup/refactor, i'd really want a nod from trevor
- # [20:20] <capella> ok ... just wondering for planning
- # [20:20] <@davidb> yeah
- # [20:21] <@davidb> for bug bug fixing you can hit me up
- # [20:21] <@davidb> marcoz is good for mochitests
- # [20:22] <@davidb> etc
- # [20:23] <capella> ok - i noticed his absence and haden't tuned into his plans until today
- # [20:23] <capella> i've got one or two reviews out tbsaunde is waiting and others asking for background /
- # [20:23] <capella> direction forward questions etc.
- # [20:23] <@davidb> capella i'll try to help with your queue tomorrow
- # [20:23] <@davidb> or tonight
- # [20:25] <capella> nice! some stuff is like are we turning left here or right, some pretty mundane ... de-xp-com tech changes
- # [20:25] <capella> nothing earth shattering
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- # [20:25] <@davidb> ok
- # [20:26] <@davidb> alright i'm going afk for a bit
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- # [21:45] <eeejay> http://groups.google.com/group/eyes-free/msg/46c4e6b0cfa39ef0
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- # [21:47] <@hub> awesome
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- # [21:52] <@davidb> eeejay, tbsaunde it is weird not seeing you op'ed
- # [21:52] <@davidb> aaronlev too for that metter
- # [21:52] <@davidb> matter
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- # [21:53] <@aaronlev> Hey all
- # [21:53] <@eeejay> craps, i am supposed to be somewhere for lunch
- # [21:53] <tbsaunde> davidb: heh
- # [21:53] <@aaronlev> Anyone know a js ninja looking for summer work?
- # [21:54] <@eeejay> aaronlev, hey. congrats on the job
- # [21:54] <@aaronlev> thanks, it's fun
- # [21:54] <tbsaunde> davidb: I'm sort of used to channels were people only put there hat on when they need it
- # [21:54] <@davidb> aaronlev: they aren't that easy to find
- # [21:54] <@davidb> tbsaunde: yeah, i only use it for visual guidance… not as a hat
- # [21:55] <@eeejay> a hat is a kind of visual guidance
- # [21:55] <@davidb> maybe it would be simpler is my client didn't shove all the operators up to the top and just went with one alphabetical list
- # [21:55] <@davidb> is/if
- # [21:55] <@davidb> eeejay: thanks for sharing the eyes-free emails
- # [21:56] <@eeejay> davidb, i only share the compliments, i ignore the bugs ;)
- # [21:56] <@davidb> heheh
- # [21:56] <@eeejay> be back in an hour, weird day
- # [22:03] <@davidb> eeejay: my beef about removing observers is i worry about "leak detected" complaints on shutdown… perhaps leaking the observer manager or something
- # [22:03] <@davidb> being warning free has benefits
- # [22:04] <tbsaunde> davidb: what are you talking about?
- # [22:06] <@davidb> tbsaunde: dbaron once warned about leaks if addObserver calls are not matched with removeObserver calls.
- # [22:08] <@davidb> tbsaunde: btw did you get my administrivia email?
- # [22:08] <tbsaunde> davidb: oh, this is in accessFoo
- # [22:08] <@davidb> yeah
- # [22:08] <tbsaunde> davidb: @moco I assume otherwise no
- # [22:08] <@davidb> yes @moco
- # [22:09] <@davidb> regarding compiler warnings (ms2ger etc) it would be nice to be warning free there too IMO, if the cost isn't high
- # [22:10] <@davidb> i suspect we want to get gecko compiling without warnings and keep it that way… even though some are false positives.
- # [22:10] <tbsaunde> davidb: no, haven't read @moco in a while, I'll look
- # [22:10] <@davidb> tbsaunde: thanks
- # [22:10] <@davidb> it is time sensitive
- # [22:11] <tbsaunde> davidb: I'm not aware of a overal greement
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- # [22:11] <@davidb> me neither
- # [22:11] <tbsaunde> and I'm not really a fan of warnings as errors
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- # [22:14] <@davidb> it might be nice to be able to annotate code in a simple non ugly way to suppress warnings
- # [22:14] <@davidb> as i say these words… my spider sense tingles
- # [22:15] <@davidb> anyways… the @moco stuff is a priority so i'll shut up
- # [22:16] <@davidb> hub: stack frames?
- # [22:17] <@davidb> are you listening to your debugger?
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- # [22:18] <tbsaunde> davidb: replied
- # [22:18] <@davidb> thanks
- # [22:18] <tbsaunde> davidb: well, there is #pragma
- # [22:19] <tbsaunde> which works for new gcc and msvc
- # [22:19] <@davidb> yeah i meant non ugly
- # [22:19] <@davidb> heh i was using pragma in the late 90's
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- # [22:20] <@davidb> (i think)
- # [22:20] <tbsaunde> but to be specific you end up with #prama GCC WMY_STUPID_WARNING disable \n some code \n #pragma GCC warning WM_stupid_warning default
- # [22:20] <@hub> davidb: I wish I didn't have to listen to that
- # [22:20] <@davidb> hub: i bet
- # [22:20] <@hub> davidb: I'm getting a crash with a recursive call
- # [22:20] <@davidb> tbsaunde: exactly
- # [22:20] <@davidb> stack overflow?
- # [22:20] <@hub> davidb: assigning a nsString to a nsString
- # [22:20] <@davidb> uhm
- # [22:21] <@davidb> sounds juicy
- # [22:21] <tbsaunde> davidb: I tend to think they're warnings not errors for a reason
- # [22:22] <@davidb> yeah
- # [22:22] <@davidb> the pita is that noisy false warnings can cloud useful ones
- # [22:22] <@davidb> making warnings useless
- # [22:23] <@hub> tbsaunde: I tend to think that if they are warning they should be fixed
- # [22:23] <@hub> but the -Woverload is a RPITA
- # [22:24] <tbsaunde> davidb: sure, so every so often you go through and read all of them, and the rest of the time you ignore them
- # [22:24] <@davidb> no I don't ;)
- # [22:24] <tbsaunde> sure, but someone does when there's time
- # [22:25] <tbsaunde> but while I've seen some things that might be wrong in a really odd case usually the warning fixes I've seen in gecko stuff haven't fixed bugs
- # [22:25] <tbsaunde> tat anyone cares about
- # [22:26] <tbsaunde> so if my choice is review fixing warnings or fixing a bug jamie filed I'd assume deal with Jamie's bug first
- # [22:27] <@davidb> sure. i'm not aware of urgency on the warning fixes especially if you have concerns that will take time.
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- # [23:38] <@davidb> capella: thanks for taking a crack at some crashers
- # [23:39] <@davidb> capella: do you have a debugger?
- # [23:39] <capella> yah - in a prod environment i dont like to see those red things
- # [23:39] <capella> and yes to debugger
- # [23:39] <@davidb> oh i'm in a meeting now
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- # [23:41] <@davidb> sorry about that (still in meeting)
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- # Session Close: Thu Jun 14 00:00:00 2012
The end :)