/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2012-06-15 / end
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- # Session Start: Fri Jun 15 00:00:00 2012
- # Session Ident: #accessibility
- # [00:00] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org cancelled review?(dbolter@mozilla.com ) for attachment 632995 on bug 764686.
- # [00:00] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from dbolter@mozilla.com for attachment 633291 on bug 764686.
- # [00:00] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=764686 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Accessible::ChildAtPoint should be consistent with GetBounds
- # [00:09] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com cancelled review?(trev.saunders@gmail .com) for attachment 633202 on bug 762394.
- # [00:09] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=762394 nor, --, ---, andrew.quartey, ASSI, replace do_QueryObject() with static cast in CAccessibleText
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- # [02:17] <@firebot> hub@mozilla.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 633321 on bug 761589.
- # [02:17] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=761589 nor, --, ---, hub, NEW, Make accessibility.force_disabled cross platform
- # [02:18] <@firebot> hub@mozilla.com requested review from dbolter@mozilla.com for attachment 632113 on bug 750612.
- # [02:18] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=750612 maj, --, ---, hub, NEW, [Mac] Too much is exposed to VoiceOver that is actually not currently visible/interactable
- # [02:19] <@firebot> hub@mozilla.com requested review from dbolter@mozilla.com for attachment 632489 on bug 758799.
- # [02:19] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=758799 nor, --, ---, hub, NEW, [Mac] remove mIsExpired from mozAccessible
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- # [03:20] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 765110 filed by hub@mozilla.com.
- # [03:20] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=765110 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, TextLeafAccessibleWrap is never instanciated
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- # [03:32] <@firebot> andrew.quartey@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 633349 on bug 762394.
- # [03:32] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=762394 nor, --, ---, andrew.quartey, ASSI, replace do_QueryObject() with static cast in CAccessibleText
- # [03:38] <@firebot> andrew.quartey@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 633351 on bug 762396.
- # [03:38] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=762396 nor, --, ---, andrew.quartey, ASSI, replace do_QueryObject() with static cast in CAccessibleEditableText
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- # [03:51] <capella> edmorley says " You do not need to set the target milestone any more (if it is set already though, please check it is correct!), since the new merge script will do that for you. "
- # [03:52] <capella> makes both our lives easier !
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- # [04:22] <capella> ick ... try 1835 / 311
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- # [10:03] <capella> surkov: those two bugs were on their way to inbound ... want me to wait?
- # [10:04] <@surkov> capella: the first one doesn't harm anyone, it's just doesn't make lot of sense, the second one can lead to crashes
- # [10:04] <@surkov> capella: up to you and tbsaunde, I gotta go :)
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- # [15:13] <@davidb> wow that is a bright star we have nearby… i mean the sun… it shines bright on toronto this morning
- # [15:15] <capella> good am davidb
- # [15:15] <@davidb> heyo
- # [15:16] <capella> reminds me of johnny carson when you do that :)
- # [15:17] <@davidb> ed :)
- # [15:17] <@davidb> laughing
- # [15:17] <capella> well, yah, to be precise
- # [15:18] <@davidb> i watched that nightly
- # [15:18] <@davidb> looking at your patch (image map)
- # [15:18] <capella> do you remember the infamous "do you want to pet my pussy" line?
- # [15:19] <capella> zsa-zsa i think it was
- # [15:19] <@MarcoZ> OMG, what kinds of topics! I like!
- # [15:19] <@MarcoZ> Hi davidb!
- # [15:19] <capella> o ... she had a cat in her lap
- # [15:19] <@davidb> i do
- # [15:20] <@davidb> i also remember the little monkey peeing on johnny's head
- # [15:20] <@MarcoZ> capella: I know! :)
- # [15:21] <@MarcoZ> Oh, he left a trace, then, must've been a TraceMonkey! :)
- # [15:21] <capella> DOH
- # [15:21] <capella> :(
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- # [15:22] * @davidb just shakes his head
- # [15:23] <capella> marcoz: watching those red bugs from last night ... did the first one go away? ed morley never followed up
- # [15:23] <capella> on his fix
- # [15:26] <@davidb> capella: i don't yet see where you ensure the image map creation gets triggered
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- # [15:26] <@davidb> oh you are moving the mouse
- # [15:26] <capella> yah .. just that one test_ though where i had to leave it in
- # [15:27] <@davidb> i see
- # [15:27] <@davidb> why?
- # [15:28] <capella> cause the test hung without it .... all the others worked fine with surkovs fix
- # [15:28] <capella> to the random crash
- # [15:31] <capella> ok so much for 765172
- # [15:32] <@davidb> capella: i understand… i'm still looking
- # [15:32] <capella> hmmm? yah different bug from last night
- # [15:33] <capella> marcoz: was involved but he dropped off
- # [15:33] <@MarcoZ> It wasn't from last night, I belive, 765172 I mean. It's been filed only a few hours ago.
- # [15:34] <@MarcoZ> Ah, was just resolved. Nice!
- # [15:34] <capella> ive not been to bed so its last night :) and I see glandium still discussing it with ed ... so ... well see
- # [15:35] <@MarcoZ> EdMorley just commented on it when he closed it.
- # [15:35] <capella> yah on #developers glandium chimed in after that
- # [15:36] <capella> ummmmm .... coffee .....
- # [15:39] <capella> then 765195 might indicate followup work in XULTree area ... 757203 just a part of something?
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- # [15:53] <@davidb> r+ but not done ;)
- # [15:53] <capella> yah kinda bugs me - no pun
- # [15:55] <icaaq> MarcoZ: could you have a look at bug 764598 when you have the time :)
- # [15:56] <@davidb> capella: image maps are hacky
- # [15:56] <capella> so im coming to learn :)
- # [15:56] <@davidb> hee
- # [15:57] <capella> do we do partial moves and leave original bugs open? i thought that was discouraged
- # [16:00] <capella> sees the bug 745788... wasnt aware
- # [16:04] <@MarcoZ> icaaq: You were absolutely right, and I reopened the bug.
- # [16:05] <icaaq> MarcoZ: thanks :)
- # [16:11] <@davidb> icaaq: :)
- # [16:12] * @MarcoZ is doing all kinds of web evangelism stuff today instead of coding on AccessFu, but that's OK. Talk about a day that went totally different than planned. But it's more part of my job desc actually than coding, so that's OK, too! :)
- # [16:14] <@davidb> !seen surkov
- # [16:15] <@davidb> MarcoZ: web evangelism is definitely in scope
- # [16:15] <capella> i chatted with him last night around 4am
- # [16:15] <@davidb> as far as I'm concerned
- # [16:15] <@davidb> capella: ok cool. was he around long?
- # [16:15] <capella> he said hihowyadoingottagonow
- # [16:15] <@davidb> oh
- # [16:15] <@davidb> (i need some more signatures from him)
- # [16:16] <icaaq> nej
- # [16:16] <icaaq> sorry, wrong window :)
- # [16:16] <capella> he commented on a couple bugs then ran for the hills
- # [16:16] <@davidb> heh
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- # [16:18] <@MarcoZ> davidb: If you're interested: bbpress.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/1852
- # [16:19] <@MarcoZ> Umm: http://bbpress.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/1852
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- # [16:23] <@davidb> i think i might be becoming ornery.. but web devs need to get real
- # [16:23] <@davidb> actually
- # [16:23] <@davidb> mozilla needs to get a super rockstar to head up platform product management
- # [16:23] <@davidb> and fix the web's flaws
- # [16:25] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Well, I hope this distinction somehow gets through to those devs at Automattic. Not all tables are bad, just some of them. And getting that distinction across right seems to still be a problem.
- # [16:25] <@davidb> yeah
- # [16:25] <@davidb> maybe we need to fit the rule in 140 characters
- # [16:26] <@MarcoZ> davidb: And fixing the web's flaws would certainly involve a lot of rockstarness, after all, it's not just us being in there.
- # [16:26] <@davidb> it just seems as a platform, it is too easy to make crap look pretty.
- # [16:27] <@davidb> and hard to make the good stuff look pretty.
- # [16:27] <@MarcoZ> Exactly. Or make the good stuff look pretty with a reasonable amount of work, and not make feel people like they have to put in a lot of extra work to do so.
- # [16:28] <@davidb> right
- # [16:30] <capella> to sleep ... perchance to dream
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- # [16:51] <NeilAway> surkov's tree viewer in bug 727092 is cool 8) but slow :-(
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- # [16:57] * icaaq needs to prepare himself for the big eng - swe match tonight!
- # [16:57] <icaaq> have a good weekend!
- # [16:58] <@davidb> hi NeilAway!
- # [16:58] <@davidb> NeilAway: i was considering pinging you on bug 570322 since you might know a little about image map frames
- # [17:00] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
- # [17:01] <NeilAway> eek
- # [17:02] <@davidb> icaaq: the lions are coming
- # [17:02] <NeilAway> davidb: all I know is that they assert like hell ;-)
- # [17:02] <@davidb> heh
- # [17:02] <@davidb> the spec requirement that one map can map more than one image makes implementation chaos
- # [17:02] <@davidb> it is madness
- # [17:03] <@davidb> IMO this needs to be fixed in spec and the frame lifecycle cleaned up
- # [17:03] <tbsaunde> davidb: you could try bz
- # [17:04] <@davidb> tbsaunde: that is almost always a good choice :)
- # [17:04] <@davidb> i think dbaron has a wip around fixing image maps
- # [17:05] <tbsaunde> davidb: true
- # [17:06] <@davidb> sometimes i wonder if image maps are worth the time
- # [17:06] <@davidb> it isn't easy to hunt them in the wild
- # [17:07] <tbsaunde> find them in the wild you mean?
- # [17:09] <tbsaunde> NeilAway: I started looking at the tree viewer patch, and then my eyes glazed over at all the xbl
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- # [17:53] <NeilAway> tbsaunde: aww, it's not so bad :-)
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- # [18:05] <tbsaunde> NeilAway: well, maybe if I learned something about xbl first ;)
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- # [18:12] <drexler> tbsaunde: ping
- # [18:12] <tbsaunde> drexler: hi
- # [18:13] <drexler> tbsaunde: for the bug 762394 and 762396 after addressing the nits, will a re-request for review be in order?
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- # [18:13] <tbsaunde> drexler: no need
- # [18:13] <drexler> ok
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- # [18:37] <@eeejay> yo morning
- # [18:43] <drexler> bonjour eeejay
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- # [18:54] <@eeejay> davidb, yo
- # [18:56] <@davidb> eeejay: hi
- # [18:56] <@davidb> saw your comments
- # [18:56] <@davidb> sounds right
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- # [18:57] <@eeejay> davidb, hey. for bug 764686, should i wait for tbsaunde?
- # [18:57] <@davidb> it wouldn't hurt
- # [18:57] <@eeejay> ok
- # [18:57] <@davidb> glad the test passes :)
- # [18:58] <@eeejay> i'm going to send a couple more core patches your way
- # [18:58] <@davidb> ok, i'm currently catching up on one of hub's
- # [18:59] <@eeejay> davidb, no worries.
- # [18:59] <@eeejay> no rush
- # [18:59] <@davidb> groovy
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- # [19:15] <@davidb> tbsaunde: PM
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- # [19:38] <@MarcoZ> reads comments in bug 764203 and lols.
- # [19:38] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, yo!
- # [19:38] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, i have been thinking/panicking
- # [19:39] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, maybe our keyboard functions are not intuitive because of the whole "an entry can't be focused" thing
- # [19:40] <@eeejay> wondering if there is a universal gesture or keystroke that would work anywhere, no matter where the focus is that would have it enter nav mode
- # [19:40] <@eeejay> ie. explicit edit and nav modes
- # [19:44] <@davidb> hub: i've looked over one of the patches, but i'm thinking it might be poor form to switch reviewer. i think you are getting very close.
- # [19:44] <@davidb> hub: any idea why surkov asked to get rid of the provider stuff?
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- # [19:48] <@hub> davidb: not really, and it didn't make sense either as it does not work
- # [19:48] <@davidb> ok
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- # [19:49] <@davidb> and hub you are not using enum accessible presumably because you want to overide get children right?
- # [19:49] <@hub> yeah
- # [19:55] <@MarcoZ> eeejay: The thing is, I don't know of any gesture. These quick nav keys are a uniquely new feature of any mobile browsing experience, I think, so people just have to learn, like they had to learn forms mode on Windows. BTW with Orca on Linux, it's the same. You have to be in web content, but outside a form field, to be able to use quick nav keys.
- # [19:56] <@davidb> MarcoZ: what is the ambient indicator of what mode you are in?
- # [19:58] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, this concerns me a bit. both orca and forms mode are problematic, i think
- # [19:59] <@MarcoZ> davidb: There is no indication of either. And these are not really modes. There is only one condition: If you're in editable text, quick nav keys won't work, but will type instead.
- # [19:59] <@davidb> (i was thinking of jaws)
- # [19:59] <@davidb> i think we should have an indication
- # [19:59] <@davidb> sonified
- # [19:59] <@MarcoZ> eeejay: We're talking about a dilemma the assistive technology world has been debating for 13 years. Ever since a virtual cursor was first conceived in Window-Eyes and JAWS in 1999.
- # [20:00] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, i am afraid of introducing user facing features that are less than perfect, and then changing them to something better and recieving lashback from community, or having to support a broken model
- # [20:00] <@MarcoZ> Well, we *do* have bug 757372...
- # [20:00] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, agreed
- # [20:01] <@MarcoZ> eeejay: Is there some way we can cause vibration and sound to be heard whenever users focus an edit field, and one when they leave it?
- # [20:01] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, i am wondering if maybe we should hide quicknav behind a pref flag until we iron out this dilemma. so that it is not disruptive when we change it
- # [20:02] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, no, the screen reader does that
- # [20:02] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, we could announce "editing", "navigating"
- # [20:03] <@hub> btw I got a phablet (aka Galaxy Note)
- # [20:03] <@MarcoZ> eeejay: Let's think about the pref last week of the cycle if we haven't found a solution to the problem by then. Until then, let's just keep it active. Users *know* that this is development stuff and things aren't working perfectly yet.
- # [20:03] <@hub> (I won it, I'd not buy that)
- # [20:03] <@eeejay> hub, phab!
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- # [20:03] <@hub> phablet = phone + tablet
- # [20:03] <@hub> now I need new pants to carry it
- # [20:03] <@hub> or a murse
- # [20:03] <@hub> mure = man + purse
- # [20:03] <@eeejay> hehe
- # [20:03] <@MarcoZ> eeejay: Let's start with the announcement, then.
- # [20:05] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, let's set up a meeting for monday.
- # [20:05] <@MarcoZ> eeejay: Fine!
- # [20:05] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, I would like to have a brainstorm session with other community folks
- # [20:06] <@MarcoZ> eeejay: I am also wondering if the prople having trouble would also have trouble with Fennec for some reason if they were sighted. Meaning that some of these devices are somehow incompatible with Fennec right now.
- # [20:06] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, i was talking about that in csun. looks like we need input sooner rather than later
- # [20:07] <@MarcoZ> Yup. Did you have anyone specific in mind who is actually using an Android device and is technically savy enough to have a productive discussion with?
- # [20:07] <@hub> davidb: our "agreed" style is to not put unneeded braces. which I disagree with
- # [20:07] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, yeah. i am less concerned about folks who can't get fennec started. and more about people who are having difficulty activating a feature
- # [20:07] <@davidb> hub: yeah you and i are alike that way
- # [20:08] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, Victor - an apple fanboy but i think he gets usability. and matt king
- # [20:08] * @MarcoZ nods. Those two came to mind, too.
- # [20:09] <@eeejay> hub, i used to be in your camp, until i was seduced by one less line.
- # [20:09] <@davidb> eeejay: I like the idea. At the end of the day always question the outcomes of design by committee though ;)
- # [20:09] <@MarcoZ> *snicker*
- # [20:09] <@hub> eeejay: then you divorce when you find your first bug that could have been avoided
- # [20:09] <@hub> eeejay: been there, done that
- # [20:09] <@davidb> MarcoZ: you just made me remember the office chocolate bars.
- # [20:09] * @davidb restrains
- # [20:09] <@eeejay> davidb, agreed. i am afraid about designing by assumptions as well
- # [20:10] <@davidb> explore by touch would never have been designed by users i don't think
- # [20:10] <@davidb> (apple i mean)
- # [20:10] <@davidb> although i could be wrong
- # [20:10] <@MarcoZ> davidb: You're absolutely right! No actual user would have come up with this fragile approach!
- # [20:10] <@davidb> but i doubt jaws users would design it
- # [20:11] <@davidb> MarcoZ: is the apple explore by touch fragile?
- # [20:11] <@eeejay> davidb, MarcoZ. i really just look at Android a11y and realize that they are paying dearly for early mistakes. and it doesn't matter what they do, they can't dig themselves out of there
- # [20:11] <@MarcoZ> Well, there were days when JAWS was actually developed by blind people who also had to use what they coded.
- # [20:11] <@MarcoZ> davidb: No, but the Android Explore By Touch is. Esp the Activating An Element part.
- # [20:12] * @davidb nods
- # [20:12] <@MarcoZ> davidb: The Apple design is so well thought out that they *must* have tested this on blind folks, too.
- # [20:12] <@davidb> explore by hammer
- # [20:12] <@MarcoZ> LOL
- # [20:12] <@davidb> MarcoZ: i bet they gave out devices with no display light
- # [20:12] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, ..and any decisions we are making now that are not dependant on androidisms we will adopt as our own and carry over to b2g
- # [20:13] <@MarcoZ> Probably!
- # [20:13] <@davidb> eeejay and i discussed the b2g thing… we don't want to bring bad design over
- # [20:13] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Also, with Android, the smaller the icon is you want to tap, the more likely it is you'll miss it when lifting and putting your finger back down. With Apple, once focused, it doesn't frickin' matter where you double-tap, it'll just activate the item no matter the size.
- # [20:13] <@davidb> bad design/weakness
- # [20:14] * @davidb nods
- # [20:14] <@davidb> maybe there is a patent or something
- # [20:14] <@davidb> i don't really want to know - it saddens me
- # [20:14] <@eeejay> this is what concerns me about our quick nav feature. it is a departure from android, it is our own thing. and we should think it over a few times
- # [20:14] <@MarcoZ> davidb: The problem I'm having is that we're severely limited by Android a11y when it comes to designing features. It's hard to actually introduce our own gestures, for example. With B2G, we have all the freedom in the world.
- # [20:14] <@hub> maybe you should all get a phablet
- # [20:15] <@davidb> lol
- # [20:15] <@hub> the screen is huge
- # [20:15] <@hub> if you find the Galaxy S2 big, wait for the Galaxy Note
- # [20:15] <@hub> (Android 2.3.6)
- # [20:15] <@MarcoZ> The screen of the Nexus is huge by comparison to the iPhone, too. :)
- # [20:15] <@davidb> maybe they should add a keyboard and call it android air
- # [20:16] <@hub> MarcoZ: which Nexus? Galaxy Nexus?
- # [20:16] * @MarcoZ grins.
- # [20:16] <@hub> MarcoZ: my Nexus One, no so much
- # [20:16] <@MarcoZ> hub: Yes the Galaxy Nexus.
- # [20:16] <@hub> davidb: EEE Pad Transfomer prime
- # [20:16] <@hub> MarcoZ: it is similar to the Galaxy S2 in size
- # [20:16] <@hub> MarcoZ: larger than the iPhone
- # [20:16] <@hub> the Galaxy Note is even larger
- # [20:16] <@eeejay> i remember a year ago i was thinking i would get an android phone when this large screen craze was over and they made them the same size as the nokia candy bars
- # [20:17] <@MarcoZ> Not going in that direction it seems. ;)
- # [20:18] <@eeejay> nope. they are dummies
- # [20:18] <@MarcoZ> eeejay: Anyway, let's meet on Skype on Monday your morning, and talk things over. I think the feature itself is good, it's the quirks we now have to deal with, e. g. giving indication on what mode the user is in, etc.
- # [20:19] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, cool. sounds good
- # [20:19] <@MarcoZ> And for B2G, we'll have to find our own way to bring up and dismiss the keyboard for quick nav when there's no entry in focus, anyway.
- # [20:19] <@eeejay> i'll send you an invite :) is 9 PDT ok?
- # [20:19] <@MarcoZ> Yes that's fine!
- # [20:19] <@hub> MarcoZ: btw Yammer won't be made more accessible as they will be too busy to rewrite it in MS tech
- # [20:20] <@eeejay> btw, if anyone else wants to join in they are welcome
- # [20:21] <@MarcoZ> hub: I didn't have high hopes anyway.
- # [20:21] <@MarcoZ> American privately held companies seem to be just as bad with web accessibility as German ones when it comes push to shove.
- # [20:22] <@MarcoZ> The only thing that would give them incentive to do it was if the government suddenly came along and offered them a several million dollar deal, ADA requirements included.
- # [20:23] <@MarcoZ> Sad but true, but web accessibility is still largely dependent on the good-will of people, and government deals.
- # [20:23] * Quits: cmpitg_away (cmpitg@84997F10.4B17D1A3.17406662.IP) (Ping timeout)
- # [20:23] <@MarcoZ> There are only a few countries, like the UK, where privately held companies are actually required to be accessible for everyone, web content included, and can be sued if they're not.
- # [20:24] <@MarcoZ> And another sad truth: 95% of web devs out there have probably never heard of the WCAG or such. Including bigger agencies. They simply don't care unless thumbed on it with their noses by someone.
- # [20:26] <@MarcoZ> OK, but I'll go off for the weekend now. See you all on Monday!
- # [20:26] <@MarcoZ> Ciao!
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- # [20:56] <@eeejay> oh. the other thing that is broken in android explore by touch is the fact that it doesn't actually move focus/vc
- # [20:57] <@eeejay> so you could find something on the page with your finger. but actually navigating to it is a whole other story
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- # [21:14] <@davidb> you can find but you can't touch
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- # [21:23] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from dbolter@mozilla.com for attachment 633623 on bug 764203.
- # [21:23] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=764203 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Don't notify pivot change if it has not actually changed
- # [21:24] <@eeejay> going to stretch. bbiab
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- # [21:26] <drexler> eeejay: ping
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- # [23:31] <tbsaunde> capella: there's no reason to describe bugs for yourself, or call them good first bugs ;)
- # [23:37] <capella> tbsaunde: just trying to be thorough ... documentation wise .... but yah you're right, i went overboard :)
- # [23:41] <tbsaunde> capella: its fine, just kind of funny
- # [23:43] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, have any thoughts about bug 764686?
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- # Session Close: Sat Jun 16 00:00:00 2012
The end :)