/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2012-07-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jul 05 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  12. # [00:34] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com granted review for attachment 638820 on bug 750612.
  13. # [00:34] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=750612 maj, --, ---, hub, NEW, [Mac] Too much is exposed to VoiceOver that is actually not currently visible/interactable
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  15. # [00:53] <@hub> now that I want to commit, it is mercurial that is bonkers
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  53. # [06:47] <@MarcoZ> capella: Hi! re bug 752464, anything you needed from me there?
  54. # [06:47] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=752464 cri, --, ---, markcapella, ASSI, crash in nsXULMenuitemAccessible::AccessKey
  55. # [06:48] <capella> marcoz: hey .... was trying to move the patch along, saw david had tossed it in your direction last
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  64. # [08:20] <@tbsaunde> capella: if you looking for something useful to do why don't you land bug 762770?
  65. # [08:20] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=762770 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, NEW, implement IAccessibleEx
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  74. # [09:10] <capella> tbsaunde: was away .... can do in the morning .... nits not addressed yet?
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  86. # [14:07] <@davidb> heyo
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  88. # [14:27] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Hi!
  89. # [14:27] <@davidb> hi
  90. # [14:28] <@tbsaunde> capella: not sure how they would be
  91. # [14:28] <@MarcoZ> davidb: So, did the analysis turn up anything else for text attributes?
  92. # [14:28] <@davidb> i didn't do further analysis yet.
  93. # [14:28] <@davidb> i fought pymake issues for 90 minutes
  94. # [14:29] <@davidb> (had to patch configure.in as per a filed bug)
  95. # [14:32] <@MarcoZ> Ouch :)
  96. # [14:33] <@MarcoZ> davidb: BTW it's good to know that we're not tied to JS for a speech synth in Firefox OS.
  97. # [14:41] <@davidb> man, I'm working from home today and the internet connection is not happy
  98. # [14:42] <@MarcoZ> That's not nice!
  99. # [14:42] <@MarcoZ> Gosh, will these Mac bugs *ever* land?
  100. # [14:44] * @MarcoZ is wondering how Chrome and Opera got this far on iOS in a much shorter time. Yes, Opera is, or at least a while back, was, very accessible on the Mac. I'm sometimes wondering if the architectural approach that was initially taken is the right one. I hear there are more ways to make a non-cocoa-app accessible, and that for Firefox, a rather inefficient one was chosen initially. :( But I don't remember specifics.
  101. # [14:52] <@davidb> that is worth a long reply… i have thoughts
  102. # [14:55] <@davidb> MarcoZ: looks like an r+ on bug 750612
  103. # [14:55] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=750612 maj, --, ---, hub, NEW, [Mac] Too much is exposed to VoiceOver that is actually not currently visible/interactable
  104. # [14:58] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Yeah I saw that and was *very* relieved. ;)
  105. # [14:58] <@MarcoZ> So it may have a chance to land today.
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  107. # [15:21] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 771113 filed by dbolter@mozilla.com.
  108. # [15:22] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=771113 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Extract a method for getting the xml-role from GetAttributes()
  109. # [15:28] * Joins: ehsan (ehsan@BEDFFF26.EE049E25.8B035CD7.IP)
  110. # [15:28] <@firebot> vinceyang15@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 639319 on bug 769452.
  111. # [15:28] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=769452 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, use NS_FORWARD_NSIACCESSIBLETABLE on accessible tables instead of custom macro
  112. # [15:33] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com granted review for attachment 639173 on bug 718700.
  113. # [15:33] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=718700 nor, P2, ---, nobody, NEW, [Mac] WAI-ARIA landmarks are not communicated to VoiceOver.
  114. # [15:36] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Re bug 771113, I was thinking the same the other day. For common things that are exposed as attributes for platform APIs, we should probably have internal methods that do things much much faster, and add the attributes layer only in the platforms that have them.
  115. # [15:36] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=771113 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Extract a method for getting the xml-role from GetAttributes()
  116. # [15:38] <@MarcoZ> For the xml role, for example, we could have a method xmlRole (or even better SubRole) that does the magic, and only when attributes are actually requested, they're built, not from the inside, but from the outside only.
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  119. # [15:49] <@MarcoZ> OK, internally, for xml-role, there is no other consumer than what bug 718700 will add.
  120. # [15:49] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=718700 nor, P2, ---, nobody, NEW, [Mac] WAI-ARIA landmarks are not communicated to VoiceOver.
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  123. # [16:13] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 771133 filed by dbolter@mozilla.com.
  124. # [16:13] <@firebot> Bug 771133 was not found.
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  126. # [16:28] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 771141 filed by dbolter@mozilla.com.
  127. # [16:28] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=771141 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Special case: input type=image with a title
  128. # [16:31] <@davidb> MarcoZ: the IA2 object attribute string being all or nothing, and not "on demand" is a real problem.
  129. # [16:34] <@MarcoZ> davidb: So yeah, considering that some of the info is only needed when IA2 or ATK want them, but for example JSAT does not, but needs some of the info, there could be a real gain.
  130. # [16:36] <@davidb> but even within IA2… the whole string might not be interesting/necessary…
  131. # [16:36] <@davidb> if i wrote an API/system it would be much different today
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  133. # [16:39] <@MarcoZ> Agreed, I wouldn't do it this way, either.
  134. # [16:40] <@davidb> I'm not innocent though… I almost added a landmark object attribute.
  135. # [16:40] <@davidb> these things creep up
  136. # [16:41] <@davidb> of course the landmark attribute wouldn't be computationally expensive though
  137. # [16:44] <@MarcoZ> davidb: No, not internally, but if you always have to get the whole string whenever you want to check internally if something's a landmark, that sucks. ;)
  138. # [16:45] <@davidb> right!
  139. # [16:45] <@davidb> good point
  140. # [17:02] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I'm not completely convinced one big set of attributes is a bad idea
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  142. # [17:03] <@tbsaunde> davidb: do you have perf data showing its a problem in the real world?
  143. # [17:03] <@davidb> I think I could get you that.
  144. # [17:04] <@tbsaunde> davidb: ok
  145. # [17:04] <@davidb> but not while I am WFH
  146. # [17:04] <@tbsaunde> davidb: extra rpc, bigger vtables come immediately to mind
  147. # [17:05] <@davidb> for the alternative yeah
  148. # [17:05] <@davidb> i'd rather have registry
  149. # [17:05] <@davidb> "please give me X Y and Z in a payload"
  150. # [17:05] <@tbsaunde> registry?
  151. # [17:06] <@davidb> sort of
  152. # [17:06] <@davidb> "I am only interested in events: a, b, and m"
  153. # [17:06] <@davidb> like on atk
  154. # [17:06] <@davidb> "I don't care about IA2 relations, ever"
  155. # [17:07] <@davidb> I == AT
  156. # [17:07] <@davidb> "I am anti-spyware, I only care about password fields"
  157. # [17:07] <@davidb> right now I think we provide more information than any AT cares about in a lot of cases
  158. # [17:08] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I'm worried about that getting really complicated
  159. # [17:08] <@davidb> it doesn't have to
  160. # [17:08] <@davidb> there are many different designs we could go with
  161. # [17:08] <@tbsaunde> also, what about the case of multiple t
  162. # [17:08] <@davidb> it adds up
  163. # [17:08] <@davidb> combine the sets
  164. # [17:10] <@tbsaunde> davidb: for events sure
  165. # [17:10] <@tbsaunde> its not so clear how things like attirubtes or states should work though
  166. # [17:10] * @davidb shrugs
  167. # [17:10] <@davidb> I didn't get into detailed implementation thinking… since I'm not actively creating new API.
  168. # [17:11] <@davidb> There were some attempts to get discussion on the event registry on the ia2 list but it isn't very active.
  169. # [17:12] * @MarcoZ is trying out a quick patch for bug 771141.
  170. # [17:12] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=771141 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Special case: input type=image with a title
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  177. # [17:42] <@davidb> MarcoZ: did you file your PTO?
  178. # [17:42] <@davidb> I just filed mine but didn't get a cc.
  179. # [17:45] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Nope, not yet.
  180. # [17:46] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Yours is from Jul 30 to Aug 3, right?
  181. # [17:47] <@davidb> correct
  182. # [17:47] <@MarcoZ> OK, mine will be the 23rd to 27th.
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  185. # [17:55] <@MarcoZ> Uh-Oh, this tree hasn't built in a while. And it's Windows. *snooorrrrrrrrrre*
  186. # [17:55] <@MarcoZ> And all that for a two line code additon.
  187. # [17:55] <@MarcoZ> addition.
  188. # [17:56] <@MarcoZ> so davidb, mind giving me your thoughts on those Mac thoughts I had earlier? :)
  189. # [17:57] <@davidb> MarcoZ: I don't mind… but I need to remember the thoughts
  190. # [17:57] <@MarcoZ> Oh! :D
  191. # [17:57] <@davidb> is this about the xml-role extraction?
  192. # [17:58] <@MarcoZ> Nope. The general architecture thing.
  193. # [17:58] <@davidb> ah
  194. # [17:58] <@davidb> so there are a few subtopics
  195. # [17:58] <@davidb> we have our core, and then we have wrappers.
  196. # [17:59] <@davidb> our core architecture is not informed by mac's a11y system design.
  197. # [17:59] <@davidb> i don't know mac's a11y system design very well.
  198. # [17:59] <@davidb> UIA might also be an interesting informer.
  199. # [17:59] <@davidb> I'm abusing the word inform here.
  200. # [18:00] <@MarcoZ> I get you.
  201. # [18:00] <@davidb> What I think this might boil down to is that maybe our Mac a11y solution should be more Mac… and less core + mac wrapper? But I really can't say.
  202. # [18:01] <@MarcoZ> mmm
  203. # [18:01] <@davidb> What inspired your earlier thoughts?
  204. # [18:02] <@MarcoZ> Just the fact that both Chrome and Opera are doing it differently, and they both are snappy with VoiceOver whilst we aren't.
  205. # [18:02] <@davidb> Chrome benefits from webkit a11y I presume?
  206. # [18:02] <@davidb> Which Safari deals with as well.
  207. # [18:03] <@MarcoZ> And I remember that one Opera guy once told me that they were using a different approach to building the accessibility for OS X than we do, and that our way is much less efficient, but he didn't go into details on that.
  208. # [18:03] <@davidb> How accessible is Opera on mac?
  209. # [18:03] <@davidb> I wish he had.
  210. # [18:03] <@MarcoZ> I need to check with a current version, the last time I tried was a year ago, and it was actually pretty good.
  211. # [18:04] <@davidb> I wonder why they aren't accessible on Windows.
  212. # [18:04] <@MarcoZ> Some glitches in the way they interpreted some markup, but otherwise close up with Safari.
  213. # [18:04] <@MarcoZ> I don't know. And oh yes, the UI was....Opera-ish.....Not very intuitive, that is. :D
  214. # [18:04] <@davidb> That reminds me… any idea where Chaals is headed?
  215. # [18:05] <@MarcoZ> I have a feeling he's leaving the sinking ship. He's the second one in a couple of days to leave them.
  216. # [18:06] <@tbsaunde> davidb: it wouldn't suprise me if the general crazyness of our impl of stuff on mac slows us down
  217. # [18:06] <@MarcoZ> OK, am being called for dinner. I'll let this build finish and may submit a patch before I leave for the evening.
  218. # [18:07] <@davidb> tbsaunde: what is the general crazyness?
  219. # [18:07] <@davidb> if we can identify the craziness, then we are further ahead than i thought.
  220. # [18:07] <@davidb> MarcoZ: bon appetite
  221. # [18:09] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I don't have a specific example in mind, just a general feeling when I read that code
  222. # [18:09] <@davidb> darn
  223. # [18:09] <@davidb> i was hoping it was actionable
  224. # [18:09] <@tbsaunde> its stuff like using xpcom things where internal ones would do and so on
  225. # [18:10] <@davidb> ok that's good to point out.
  226. # [18:10] <@tbsaunde> kif I had time I could probably work on it but...
  227. # [18:10] * @davidb nods
  228. # [18:11] <@davidb> improving core where we can is a top priority for q3 as part of our ff os effort
  229. # [18:11] <@davidb> mac has to take a back seat
  230. # [18:12] <@davidb> maybe we need a volunteer like clown to tackle mac
  231. # [18:12] <@davidb> :P
  232. # [18:12] <clown> volunteer???
  233. # [18:12] <clown> harumph. I volunteer for enough stuff.
  234. # [18:12] <@davidb> i thought that might grab you
  235. # [18:12] <@davidb> you do.
  236. # [18:12] <clown> lunch, davidb? It is thusday...
  237. # [18:12] <@firebot> markcapella@twcny.rr.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 637599 on bug 752464.
  238. # [18:12] <clown> "thursday"
  239. # [18:12] <@davidb> i'm working from home today
  240. # [18:13] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=752464 cri, --, ---, markcapella, ASSI, crash in nsXULMenuitemAccessible::AccessKey
  241. # [18:13] <clown> worse, I am slowly becoming an at-spi 'expert', davidb. I'm an ignorant slob when it comes to os x AX.
  242. # [18:14] <@davidb> ignorant slob eh?
  243. # [18:14] <clown> on the other hand, if there is a grant to apply for here, I'm sure the idrc would be interested...
  244. # [18:14] <@davidb> noted.
  245. # [18:14] <clown> yup. I've got pizza stains all over my mac shirt.
  246. # [18:14] <@davidb> there is a bit of a queue for grants.
  247. # [18:15] <clown> not surprised re: queue
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  251. # [19:06] <@MarcoZ> Hm, not handled by HTMLButtonAccessible, or the title is grabbed somewhere else. Will investigate tomorrow.
  252. # [19:06] <@MarcoZ> See you guys!
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  263. # [20:03] <capella> firebot: doughnut
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  268. # [20:25] <@davidb> that would be handy
  269. # [20:35] * Joins: jprmc (jprmc@69F4FD58.5BCEC6DB.DA78B690.IP)
  270. # [20:35] <hub_lime> yesterday I couldn't push because of a bug with Mercurial
  271. # [20:35] * ChanServ sets mode: +o jprmc
  272. # [20:35] <hub_lime> today, SSH auth
  273. # [20:36] <hub_lime> WTF?
  274. # [20:37] <@davidb> hmm?
  275. # [20:37] <@davidb> oh #developers
  276. # [20:38] <hub_lime> well I'm hitting them
  277. # [20:38] <hub_lime> the issues
  278. # [20:38] <@davidb> sux
  279. # [20:38] <@davidb> bug 771245
  280. # [20:38] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=771245 blo, --, ---, rbryce, NEW, Unable to pull from ssh'ed hg.mozilla.org
  281. # [20:39] <hub> or push
  282. # [20:39] <@davidb> makes sense
  283. # [20:42] <@davidb> hub: did you find/file the cut and paste bug?
  284. # [20:43] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from dbolter@mozilla.com for attachment 639413 on bug 757372.
  285. # [20:43] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=757372 nor, --, ---, eitan, NEW, [AccessFu] Provide feedback when entering an entry field for editing
  286. # [20:49] <hub> davidb: not yet.
  287. # [20:49] <hub> but it is a PITA
  288. # [20:49] <hub> and it is not new
  289. # [20:49] <@davidb> hub: command+c is not working on mac for me today
  290. # [20:50] <@davidb> is that the bug you see?
  291. # [20:58] <hub> try a second time
  292. # [20:58] <hub> usually it work the second time
  293. # [20:58] <hub> but yeah
  294. # [20:59] * Joins: margle (margle@moz-75218163.dsl.mweb.co.za)
  295. # [21:05] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com granted review for attachment 639413 on bug 757372.
  296. # [21:05] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=757372 nor, --, ---, eitan, NEW, [AccessFu] Provide feedback when entering an entry field for editing
  297. # [21:15] * Quits: @jprmc (jprmc@69F4FD58.5BCEC6DB.DA78B690.IP) (Ping timeout)
  298. # [21:32] <capella> fine ... ill go get my own darn doughnut
  299. # [21:34] <@tbsaunde> an hg command tht doesn't hang after finishing \O
  300. # [21:34] * tbsaunde is now known as tbsaunde|afk
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  303. # [21:42] <@davidb> capella: lol
  304. # [21:43] <capella> firebot: chocolate
  305. # [21:43] <capella> he talks... just not to me?
  306. # [21:44] <@davidb> capella: he might be sleeping… but sometimes a ? helps
  307. # [21:44] <@davidb> firebot: chocolate?
  308. # [21:44] <capella> bot is buggy today ...
  309. # [21:45] <@davidb> you should see a doctor for that
  310. # [21:45] <capella> 'sok ... need to get to the store while my win build finally runs ... hadda bug for the last few days
  311. # [21:45] <capella> win build that is had one
  312. # [21:45] <@davidb> me too
  313. # [21:45] <@davidb> pymake was failing
  314. # [21:46] <capella> yah .... the 'pwd' thing in the config file?
  315. # [21:47] <capella> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=770558
  316. # [21:47] <@firebot> Bug 770558 blo, --, ---, sagarwal, ASSI, Build failure at dom\tests\mochitest\dom-level2-html\files with return code 101120
  317. # [21:48] <capella> i wanna land 762770 ... surkov and tbsaunde and i have been coding by committee
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  320. # [21:49] <@davidb> that sounds inefficient
  321. # [21:50] <capella> it is generally inefficient as a rule ... too many cooks ... but ive been double guessed on two line hacks so
  322. # [21:50] <capella> imgetting used to the group think concept
  323. # [21:50] <capella> k - gotta run ... back later
  324. # [21:50] <@davidb> ciao!
  325. # [21:50] <capella> luega
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  336. # [22:52] * tbsaunde|afk is now known as tbsaunde
  337. # [23:01] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com requested approval-mozilla-aurora from the wind for attachment 637091 on bug 765110.
  338. # [23:01] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=765110 nor, --, mozilla16, markcapella, RESO FIXED, TextLeafAccessibleWrap is never instanciated
  339. # [23:02] * tbsaunde is now known as tbsaunde|afk
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  341. # [23:12] <@davidb> tbsaunde|afk: should we at MATS test for the bug 765110 regression?
  342. # [23:12] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=765110 nor, --, mozilla16, markcapella, RESO FIXED, TextLeafAccessibleWrap is never instanciated
  343. # [23:12] <@davidb> at/add
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  347. # Session Close: Fri Jul 06 00:00:00 2012

The end :)