/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2012-07-05 / end
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- # Session Start: Thu Jul 05 00:00:00 2012
- # Session Ident: #accessibility
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- # [00:34] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com granted review for attachment 638820 on bug 750612.
- # [00:34] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=750612 maj, --, ---, hub, NEW, [Mac] Too much is exposed to VoiceOver that is actually not currently visible/interactable
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- # [00:53] <@hub> now that I want to commit, it is mercurial that is bonkers
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- # [06:47] <@MarcoZ> capella: Hi! re bug 752464, anything you needed from me there?
- # [06:47] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=752464 cri, --, ---, markcapella, ASSI, crash in nsXULMenuitemAccessible::AccessKey
- # [06:48] <capella> marcoz: hey .... was trying to move the patch along, saw david had tossed it in your direction last
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- # [08:20] <@tbsaunde> capella: if you looking for something useful to do why don't you land bug 762770?
- # [08:20] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=762770 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, NEW, implement IAccessibleEx
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- # [09:10] <capella> tbsaunde: was away .... can do in the morning .... nits not addressed yet?
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- # [14:07] <@davidb> heyo
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- # [14:27] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Hi!
- # [14:27] <@davidb> hi
- # [14:28] <@tbsaunde> capella: not sure how they would be
- # [14:28] <@MarcoZ> davidb: So, did the analysis turn up anything else for text attributes?
- # [14:28] <@davidb> i didn't do further analysis yet.
- # [14:28] <@davidb> i fought pymake issues for 90 minutes
- # [14:29] <@davidb> (had to patch configure.in as per a filed bug)
- # [14:32] <@MarcoZ> Ouch :)
- # [14:33] <@MarcoZ> davidb: BTW it's good to know that we're not tied to JS for a speech synth in Firefox OS.
- # [14:41] <@davidb> man, I'm working from home today and the internet connection is not happy
- # [14:42] <@MarcoZ> That's not nice!
- # [14:42] <@MarcoZ> Gosh, will these Mac bugs *ever* land?
- # [14:44] * @MarcoZ is wondering how Chrome and Opera got this far on iOS in a much shorter time. Yes, Opera is, or at least a while back, was, very accessible on the Mac. I'm sometimes wondering if the architectural approach that was initially taken is the right one. I hear there are more ways to make a non-cocoa-app accessible, and that for Firefox, a rather inefficient one was chosen initially. :( But I don't remember specifics.
- # [14:52] <@davidb> that is worth a long reply… i have thoughts
- # [14:55] <@davidb> MarcoZ: looks like an r+ on bug 750612
- # [14:55] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=750612 maj, --, ---, hub, NEW, [Mac] Too much is exposed to VoiceOver that is actually not currently visible/interactable
- # [14:58] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Yeah I saw that and was *very* relieved. ;)
- # [14:58] <@MarcoZ> So it may have a chance to land today.
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- # [15:21] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 771113 filed by dbolter@mozilla.com.
- # [15:22] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=771113 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Extract a method for getting the xml-role from GetAttributes()
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- # [15:28] <@firebot> vinceyang15@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 639319 on bug 769452.
- # [15:28] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=769452 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, use NS_FORWARD_NSIACCESSIBLETABLE on accessible tables instead of custom macro
- # [15:33] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com granted review for attachment 639173 on bug 718700.
- # [15:33] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=718700 nor, P2, ---, nobody, NEW, [Mac] WAI-ARIA landmarks are not communicated to VoiceOver.
- # [15:36] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Re bug 771113, I was thinking the same the other day. For common things that are exposed as attributes for platform APIs, we should probably have internal methods that do things much much faster, and add the attributes layer only in the platforms that have them.
- # [15:36] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=771113 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Extract a method for getting the xml-role from GetAttributes()
- # [15:38] <@MarcoZ> For the xml role, for example, we could have a method xmlRole (or even better SubRole) that does the magic, and only when attributes are actually requested, they're built, not from the inside, but from the outside only.
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- # [15:49] <@MarcoZ> OK, internally, for xml-role, there is no other consumer than what bug 718700 will add.
- # [15:49] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=718700 nor, P2, ---, nobody, NEW, [Mac] WAI-ARIA landmarks are not communicated to VoiceOver.
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- # [16:13] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 771133 filed by dbolter@mozilla.com.
- # [16:13] <@firebot> Bug 771133 was not found.
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- # [16:28] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 771141 filed by dbolter@mozilla.com.
- # [16:28] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=771141 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Special case: input type=image with a title
- # [16:31] <@davidb> MarcoZ: the IA2 object attribute string being all or nothing, and not "on demand" is a real problem.
- # [16:34] <@MarcoZ> davidb: So yeah, considering that some of the info is only needed when IA2 or ATK want them, but for example JSAT does not, but needs some of the info, there could be a real gain.
- # [16:36] <@davidb> but even within IA2… the whole string might not be interesting/necessary…
- # [16:36] <@davidb> if i wrote an API/system it would be much different today
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- # [16:39] <@MarcoZ> Agreed, I wouldn't do it this way, either.
- # [16:40] <@davidb> I'm not innocent though… I almost added a landmark object attribute.
- # [16:40] <@davidb> these things creep up
- # [16:41] <@davidb> of course the landmark attribute wouldn't be computationally expensive though
- # [16:44] <@MarcoZ> davidb: No, not internally, but if you always have to get the whole string whenever you want to check internally if something's a landmark, that sucks. ;)
- # [16:45] <@davidb> right!
- # [16:45] <@davidb> good point
- # [17:02] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I'm not completely convinced one big set of attributes is a bad idea
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- # [17:03] <@tbsaunde> davidb: do you have perf data showing its a problem in the real world?
- # [17:03] <@davidb> I think I could get you that.
- # [17:04] <@tbsaunde> davidb: ok
- # [17:04] <@davidb> but not while I am WFH
- # [17:04] <@tbsaunde> davidb: extra rpc, bigger vtables come immediately to mind
- # [17:05] <@davidb> for the alternative yeah
- # [17:05] <@davidb> i'd rather have registry
- # [17:05] <@davidb> "please give me X Y and Z in a payload"
- # [17:05] <@tbsaunde> registry?
- # [17:06] <@davidb> sort of
- # [17:06] <@davidb> "I am only interested in events: a, b, and m"
- # [17:06] <@davidb> like on atk
- # [17:06] <@davidb> "I don't care about IA2 relations, ever"
- # [17:07] <@davidb> I == AT
- # [17:07] <@davidb> "I am anti-spyware, I only care about password fields"
- # [17:07] <@davidb> right now I think we provide more information than any AT cares about in a lot of cases
- # [17:08] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I'm worried about that getting really complicated
- # [17:08] <@davidb> it doesn't have to
- # [17:08] <@davidb> there are many different designs we could go with
- # [17:08] <@tbsaunde> also, what about the case of multiple t
- # [17:08] <@davidb> it adds up
- # [17:08] <@davidb> combine the sets
- # [17:10] <@tbsaunde> davidb: for events sure
- # [17:10] <@tbsaunde> its not so clear how things like attirubtes or states should work though
- # [17:10] * @davidb shrugs
- # [17:10] <@davidb> I didn't get into detailed implementation thinking… since I'm not actively creating new API.
- # [17:11] <@davidb> There were some attempts to get discussion on the event registry on the ia2 list but it isn't very active.
- # [17:12] * @MarcoZ is trying out a quick patch for bug 771141.
- # [17:12] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=771141 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Special case: input type=image with a title
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- # [17:42] <@davidb> MarcoZ: did you file your PTO?
- # [17:42] <@davidb> I just filed mine but didn't get a cc.
- # [17:45] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Nope, not yet.
- # [17:46] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Yours is from Jul 30 to Aug 3, right?
- # [17:47] <@davidb> correct
- # [17:47] <@MarcoZ> OK, mine will be the 23rd to 27th.
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- # [17:55] <@MarcoZ> Uh-Oh, this tree hasn't built in a while. And it's Windows. *snooorrrrrrrrrre*
- # [17:55] <@MarcoZ> And all that for a two line code additon.
- # [17:55] <@MarcoZ> addition.
- # [17:56] <@MarcoZ> so davidb, mind giving me your thoughts on those Mac thoughts I had earlier? :)
- # [17:57] <@davidb> MarcoZ: I don't mind… but I need to remember the thoughts
- # [17:57] <@MarcoZ> Oh! :D
- # [17:57] <@davidb> is this about the xml-role extraction?
- # [17:58] <@MarcoZ> Nope. The general architecture thing.
- # [17:58] <@davidb> ah
- # [17:58] <@davidb> so there are a few subtopics
- # [17:58] <@davidb> we have our core, and then we have wrappers.
- # [17:59] <@davidb> our core architecture is not informed by mac's a11y system design.
- # [17:59] <@davidb> i don't know mac's a11y system design very well.
- # [17:59] <@davidb> UIA might also be an interesting informer.
- # [17:59] <@davidb> I'm abusing the word inform here.
- # [18:00] <@MarcoZ> I get you.
- # [18:00] <@davidb> What I think this might boil down to is that maybe our Mac a11y solution should be more Mac… and less core + mac wrapper? But I really can't say.
- # [18:01] <@MarcoZ> mmm
- # [18:01] <@davidb> What inspired your earlier thoughts?
- # [18:02] <@MarcoZ> Just the fact that both Chrome and Opera are doing it differently, and they both are snappy with VoiceOver whilst we aren't.
- # [18:02] <@davidb> Chrome benefits from webkit a11y I presume?
- # [18:02] <@davidb> Which Safari deals with as well.
- # [18:03] <@MarcoZ> And I remember that one Opera guy once told me that they were using a different approach to building the accessibility for OS X than we do, and that our way is much less efficient, but he didn't go into details on that.
- # [18:03] <@davidb> How accessible is Opera on mac?
- # [18:03] <@davidb> I wish he had.
- # [18:03] <@MarcoZ> I need to check with a current version, the last time I tried was a year ago, and it was actually pretty good.
- # [18:04] <@davidb> I wonder why they aren't accessible on Windows.
- # [18:04] <@MarcoZ> Some glitches in the way they interpreted some markup, but otherwise close up with Safari.
- # [18:04] <@MarcoZ> I don't know. And oh yes, the UI was....Opera-ish.....Not very intuitive, that is. :D
- # [18:04] <@davidb> That reminds me… any idea where Chaals is headed?
- # [18:05] <@MarcoZ> I have a feeling he's leaving the sinking ship. He's the second one in a couple of days to leave them.
- # [18:06] <@tbsaunde> davidb: it wouldn't suprise me if the general crazyness of our impl of stuff on mac slows us down
- # [18:06] <@MarcoZ> OK, am being called for dinner. I'll let this build finish and may submit a patch before I leave for the evening.
- # [18:07] <@davidb> tbsaunde: what is the general crazyness?
- # [18:07] <@davidb> if we can identify the craziness, then we are further ahead than i thought.
- # [18:07] <@davidb> MarcoZ: bon appetite
- # [18:09] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I don't have a specific example in mind, just a general feeling when I read that code
- # [18:09] <@davidb> darn
- # [18:09] <@davidb> i was hoping it was actionable
- # [18:09] <@tbsaunde> its stuff like using xpcom things where internal ones would do and so on
- # [18:10] <@davidb> ok that's good to point out.
- # [18:10] <@tbsaunde> kif I had time I could probably work on it but...
- # [18:10] * @davidb nods
- # [18:11] <@davidb> improving core where we can is a top priority for q3 as part of our ff os effort
- # [18:11] <@davidb> mac has to take a back seat
- # [18:12] <@davidb> maybe we need a volunteer like clown to tackle mac
- # [18:12] <@davidb> :P
- # [18:12] <clown> volunteer???
- # [18:12] <clown> harumph. I volunteer for enough stuff.
- # [18:12] <@davidb> i thought that might grab you
- # [18:12] <@davidb> you do.
- # [18:12] <clown> lunch, davidb? It is thusday...
- # [18:12] <@firebot> markcapella@twcny.rr.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 637599 on bug 752464.
- # [18:12] <clown> "thursday"
- # [18:12] <@davidb> i'm working from home today
- # [18:13] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=752464 cri, --, ---, markcapella, ASSI, crash in nsXULMenuitemAccessible::AccessKey
- # [18:13] <clown> worse, I am slowly becoming an at-spi 'expert', davidb. I'm an ignorant slob when it comes to os x AX.
- # [18:14] <@davidb> ignorant slob eh?
- # [18:14] <clown> on the other hand, if there is a grant to apply for here, I'm sure the idrc would be interested...
- # [18:14] <@davidb> noted.
- # [18:14] <clown> yup. I've got pizza stains all over my mac shirt.
- # [18:14] <@davidb> there is a bit of a queue for grants.
- # [18:15] <clown> not surprised re: queue
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- # [19:06] <@MarcoZ> Hm, not handled by HTMLButtonAccessible, or the title is grabbed somewhere else. Will investigate tomorrow.
- # [19:06] <@MarcoZ> See you guys!
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- # [20:03] <capella> firebot: doughnut
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- # [20:25] <@davidb> that would be handy
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- # [20:35] <hub_lime> yesterday I couldn't push because of a bug with Mercurial
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- # [20:35] <hub_lime> today, SSH auth
- # [20:36] <hub_lime> WTF?
- # [20:37] <@davidb> hmm?
- # [20:37] <@davidb> oh #developers
- # [20:38] <hub_lime> well I'm hitting them
- # [20:38] <hub_lime> the issues
- # [20:38] <@davidb> sux
- # [20:38] <@davidb> bug 771245
- # [20:38] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=771245 blo, --, ---, rbryce, NEW, Unable to pull from ssh'ed hg.mozilla.org
- # [20:39] <hub> or push
- # [20:39] <@davidb> makes sense
- # [20:42] <@davidb> hub: did you find/file the cut and paste bug?
- # [20:43] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from dbolter@mozilla.com for attachment 639413 on bug 757372.
- # [20:43] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=757372 nor, --, ---, eitan, NEW, [AccessFu] Provide feedback when entering an entry field for editing
- # [20:49] <hub> davidb: not yet.
- # [20:49] <hub> but it is a PITA
- # [20:49] <hub> and it is not new
- # [20:49] <@davidb> hub: command+c is not working on mac for me today
- # [20:50] <@davidb> is that the bug you see?
- # [20:58] <hub> try a second time
- # [20:58] <hub> usually it work the second time
- # [20:58] <hub> but yeah
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- # [21:05] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com granted review for attachment 639413 on bug 757372.
- # [21:05] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=757372 nor, --, ---, eitan, NEW, [AccessFu] Provide feedback when entering an entry field for editing
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- # [21:32] <capella> fine ... ill go get my own darn doughnut
- # [21:34] <@tbsaunde> an hg command tht doesn't hang after finishing \O
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- # [21:42] <@davidb> capella: lol
- # [21:43] <capella> firebot: chocolate
- # [21:43] <capella> he talks... just not to me?
- # [21:44] <@davidb> capella: he might be sleeping… but sometimes a ? helps
- # [21:44] <@davidb> firebot: chocolate?
- # [21:44] <capella> bot is buggy today ...
- # [21:45] <@davidb> you should see a doctor for that
- # [21:45] <capella> 'sok ... need to get to the store while my win build finally runs ... hadda bug for the last few days
- # [21:45] <capella> win build that is had one
- # [21:45] <@davidb> me too
- # [21:45] <@davidb> pymake was failing
- # [21:46] <capella> yah .... the 'pwd' thing in the config file?
- # [21:47] <capella> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=770558
- # [21:47] <@firebot> Bug 770558 blo, --, ---, sagarwal, ASSI, Build failure at dom\tests\mochitest\dom-level2-html\files with return code 101120
- # [21:48] <capella> i wanna land 762770 ... surkov and tbsaunde and i have been coding by committee
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- # [21:49] <@davidb> that sounds inefficient
- # [21:50] <capella> it is generally inefficient as a rule ... too many cooks ... but ive been double guessed on two line hacks so
- # [21:50] <capella> imgetting used to the group think concept
- # [21:50] <capella> k - gotta run ... back later
- # [21:50] <@davidb> ciao!
- # [21:50] <capella> luega
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- # [22:52] * tbsaunde|afk is now known as tbsaunde
- # [23:01] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com requested approval-mozilla-aurora from the wind for attachment 637091 on bug 765110.
- # [23:01] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=765110 nor, --, mozilla16, markcapella, RESO FIXED, TextLeafAccessibleWrap is never instanciated
- # [23:02] * tbsaunde is now known as tbsaunde|afk
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- # [23:12] <@davidb> tbsaunde|afk: should we at MATS test for the bug 765110 regression?
- # [23:12] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=765110 nor, --, mozilla16, markcapella, RESO FIXED, TextLeafAccessibleWrap is never instanciated
- # [23:12] <@davidb> at/add
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- # Session Close: Fri Jul 06 00:00:00 2012
The end :)