/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2012-07-06 / end
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- # Session Start: Fri Jul 06 00:00:00 2012
- # Session Ident: #accessibility
- # [00:06] <@tbsaunde|afk> davidb: sounds good
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- # [01:24] <@hub> this reboot was brought to you by Kernel and Panic
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- # [05:45] <@firebot> New Firefox - Keyboard Navigation bug 771411 filed by bzcc@fowlsmurf.net.
- # [05:45] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=771411 nor, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, Chrome-initiated keyup events propagated to content
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- # [09:43] <@MarcoZ> Yawn....Good day all!
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- # [15:08] <@davidb> heyo
- # [15:08] <@MarcoZ> Hi davidb!
- # [15:09] <@davidb> hi hi
- # [15:09] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Thanks for the blog post! OMG :)
- # [15:10] <@davidb> lol
- # [15:10] <@MarcoZ> I totally forgot that we had this conversation and you took notes of what I said! (and no, permission still granted ;) ).
- # [15:10] <@davidb> i knew it :)
- # [15:11] <@MarcoZ> I finally wrote my web apps vs. native apps thingie today which has been going around in my head for over 2 1/2 years.
- # [15:11] <@davidb> oh good - is it posted?
- # [15:12] <Stevef> davidb: want you = input on canvas lightweight hit regions
- # [15:12] <@MarcoZ> Yes! http://www.marcozehe.de/2012/07/06/are-web-apps-accessible-enough-to-replace-desktop-applications-any-time-soon/
- # [15:12] <@davidb> Stevef: saw your tweet
- # [15:12] <Stevef> davidb: have been lurking for hours waiting for you to surface, patience rewarded
- # [15:13] <@davidb> Stevef: hahah
- # [15:13] <@davidb> I want to give it a proper going over
- # [15:13] <@MarcoZ> stevef: Fucking timezones, eh? :D
- # [15:13] <Stevef> davidb: really acc implementers should have been looking at this before, but better late...
- # [15:13] <@davidb> Stevef: is it about hit regions?
- # [15:14] <Stevef> yes
- # [15:14] <Stevef> ones that don't have html backing
- # [15:14] <@davidb> The folks at Mozilla I've spoken with… all they want to see compelling use cases such that they'd obviously be used in the wild all over the place if we implemented support.
- # [15:15] <Stevef> but can assign role and label, so have virtual DOM as well as HTML DOM for AT
- # [15:15] * @davidb shrugs
- # [15:16] <Stevef> but virtual only for regions really not controls
- # [15:16] <Stevef> seems like an implementation burden, but don't have chops to say
- # [15:16] <@davidb> Stevef: one thing I'm learning is that it is really hard for me to bless something until I experiment with implementation. I'm finding some corners of the aria spec that are going to hurt perf if we implement them.
- # [15:17] <@davidb> I will read it though… I hope within 48 hrs… probably won't reply on twitter though :)
- # [15:17] <Stevef> what i would like is acc engineer to review proposal and critique, is it workable is nit needed etc
- # [15:17] <@davidb> is it big?
- # [15:17] <Stevef> no
- # [15:17] <@davidb> ok
- # [15:18] <Stevef> couple of pages http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#hit-regions
- # [15:19] <@davidb> ok, i've got a post-it of stuff i need to do first
- # [15:19] <Stevef> specifically
- # [15:19] <Stevef> Optionally, either a control, or an unbacked region description.
- # [15:20] <Stevef> A control is just a reference to an Element node, to which, in certain conditions, the user agent will route events, and from which the user agent will determine the state of the hit region for the purposes of accessibility tools.
- # [15:20] <Stevef> An unbacked region description consists of the following:
- # [15:20] <Stevef> Optionally, a label.
- # [15:20] <Stevef> An ARIA role, which, if the unbacked region description also has a label, could be the empty string.
- # [15:20] <@davidb> I see what you are doing here :)
- # [15:21] <Stevef> I am questioning whether additon of a vrtual DOM for non control like hit regions is worth it and asking for ARIA roles that can be used to be limited since the unbacked regions cannot receieve focus
- # [15:21] <@davidb> is the reason to have unbacked stuff because people deem the html backed regions too heavyweight?
- # [15:21] <Stevef> yes
- # [15:21] <@davidb> i see
- # [15:21] <@davidb> need use cases. preferable a whole bunch.
- # [15:21] <@davidb> e/y
- # [15:22] <Stevef> but unbacked cannot have states or properies assigned so limited in what acc information they can convey I think
- # [15:22] <@davidb> Stevef: well, surkov would tell you about something that has been incubating (which we have zero time to work on)
- # [15:22] <@davidb> DOM a11y API
- # [15:23] <Stevef> anyway will leave you and your mozillian brains with it, just didn't want it to get accepted into spec without review
- # [15:23] <@davidb> element.getAccessibleName etc
- # [15:23] <@davidb> haha
- # [15:23] <Stevef> hmm sounds interesting
- # [15:23] <@davidb> Stevef: you are a mozillian, whether you realize it or not.
- # [15:23] <Stevef> oh yeah, but i mean the guys that actually do the work :-)
- # [15:23] <@davidb> psh
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- # [15:24] <@davidb> speaking of which…
- # [15:24] <Stevef> for sure I'm a fan
- # [15:24] * @davidb looks at post-it
- # [15:29] <@davidb> Stevef: https://mozillians.org/en-US/Stevef
- # [15:29] <@davidb> i rest my case
- # [15:30] <Stevef> davidb: and if you do reply be good if you responded to thread discussing proposal on HTML WG
- # [15:30] <Stevef> davidb: OK you got me...
- # [15:30] <@davidb> ok
- # [15:30] <@davidb> :)
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- # [15:39] <@davidb> MarcoZ: i don't think you explicitly mention thunderbird
- # [15:39] <@davidb> but i guess you use apple mail more
- # [15:40] <@MarcoZ> davidb: I don't explicitly mention Thunderbird, no, but on Windows, it's all I use. :)
- # [15:40] <@MarcoZ> On Mac, I use Apple Mail indeed.
- # [15:53] <@davidb> MarcoZ: it seems to me we need to bump the priority of our app dev kit accessibility as high as possible
- # [15:53] <@MarcoZ> Stevef: Thanks for the tweet! :)
- # [15:53] <@davidb> MarcoZ: …and you say this in the next paragraph haha
- # [15:54] <Stevef> MarcoZ: no problem you always provide good info, just reading the discussion between you and yatil.
- # [15:55] <Stevef> MarcoZ have you fed back to Dennis L your easy chirp critique? I am sure he would take notice
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- # [15:57] <@MarcoZ> Stevef: No, I haven't talked to him about this directly yet. The problem is to make this a true web app more than a collection of more or less static pages, which it is now, it would need a massive re-write.
- # [15:58] <@MarcoZ> And it *is* accessible, my point was merely to demonstrate that this is still a long way from being as effective as a native app.
- # [15:59] <Stevef> sure, but usability is important an 'accessible' page with poor usability is a shame cosidering all the work he has put into ot
- # [15:59] <Stevef> s/cosidering/considering/
- # [16:00] <@MarcoZ> If he wasn't aware of the workflow until now, to put it in a cheeky way, he hasn't ever used the site with a screen reader. :)
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- # [16:24] <@davidb> Cheeky!
- # [16:31] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Don't say I didn't warn ya! ;)
- # [16:32] <@davidb> the truth will set us free
- # [16:39] <@MarcoZ> LOL
- # [16:46] <@davidb> clown: what is the name of that head/face tracker on linux?
- # [16:46] <@davidb> uses the camera
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- # [16:47] <clown> dunno, davidb. I'll see if jsilva knows.
- # [16:48] <@davidb> (about 3 years or more ago)
- # [16:48] <clown> the wiimote? :-)
- # [16:48] <@MarcoZ> Uuuuugly, the Yammer desktop installer is done in inaccessible Flash. Yuck!
- # [16:50] <@davidb> clown: ha
- # [16:50] <@davidb> no
- # [16:50] <clown> davidb, the best jsilva has come up with is "camera mouse". But he's not sure. He thinks he has an old email that might give more info. Holding...
- # [16:50] <@davidb> i think flapper was working on it
- # [16:51] <clown> jsilva did develop some kind of tracker using a wiimote (it's infrared camera).
- # [16:51] <clown> "its" (sheesh)
- # [16:51] <@davidb> yeah there was that other dude that did that too
- # [16:51] <@davidb> but no that's not it.
- # [16:51] <@davidb> thanks for checking
- # [16:59] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 718700 from NEW to RESOLVED.
- # [16:59] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com set the Resolution field on bug 718700 to FIXED.
- # [16:59] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 718700 from --- to mozilla16.
- # [16:59] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=718700 nor, P2, mozilla16, hub, RESO FIXED, [Mac] WAI-ARIA landmarks are not communicated to VoiceOver.
- # [16:59] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 718625 from NEW to RESOLVED.
- # [16:59] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com set the Resolution field on bug 718625 to FIXED.
- # [16:59] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 718625 from --- to mozilla16.
- # [16:59] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=718625 nor, P2, mozilla16, hub, RESO FIXED, [Mac] VoiceOver says "text" after each chunk of text it reads inside paragraphs, does not do that in
- # [16:59] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 758799 from NEW to RESOLVED.
- # [16:59] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com set the Resolution field on bug 758799 to FIXED.
- # [16:59] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 758799 from --- to mozilla16.
- # [16:59] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=758799 nor, --, mozilla16, hub, RESO FIXED, [Mac] remove mIsExpired from mozAccessible
- # [16:59] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 750612 from NEW to RESOLVED.
- # [17:00] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com set the Resolution field on bug 750612 to FIXED.
- # [17:00] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 750612 from --- to mozilla16.
- # [17:00] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=750612 maj, --, mozilla16, hub, RESO FIXED, [Mac] Too much is exposed to VoiceOver that is actually not currently visible/interactable
- # [17:00] <ehsan> davidb: firebot on this channel makes me sooooo sad
- # [17:01] <@davidb> ehsan: i can ping you just as often
- # [17:01] <@davidb> ehsan
- # [17:01] <@davidb> stop me, ehsan
- # [17:01] <ehsan> davidb: that would make me leave this channel...
- # [17:01] <ehsan> and you all will miss me
- # [17:01] <@davidb> hmmm
- # [17:02] <@davidb> fine!
- # [17:02] <@davidb> your name is an anagram of shane
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- # [17:03] <@davidb> finally - working mochitests on windows again!
- # [17:04] <clown> davidb, jsilva has found two: "eviacam" (http://eviacam.sourceforge.net/) and "opengazer" (http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/opengazer/)
- # [17:04] <@davidb> (my build directory was so so borked)
- # [17:04] <@davidb> clown: thanks. joanie remembered "mousetrap"
- # [17:05] <clown> wlcm davidb.
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- # [17:20] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 771521 filed by dbolter@mozilla.com.
- # [17:20] <@firebot> Bug 771521 was not found.
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- # [17:48] <@MarcoZ> Phew, those Mac patches finally landed!
- # [17:51] <@davidb> bloody right
- # [18:12] <Stevef> Notes on Web Components + ARIA http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2012/07/notes-on-web-components-aria/
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- # [18:32] <@MarcoZ> OK, I'm off for the weekend. See you on Monday!
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- # [19:59] <@firebot> markcapella@twcny.rr.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 762770 from --- to mozilla16.
- # [19:59] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=762770 nor, --, mozilla16, surkov.alexander, NEW, implement IAccessibleEx
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- # [20:01] <@davidb> capella: nice
- # [20:01] <capella> i cant tae much credit - just polished it and put it to bed for the guys
- # [20:02] <@davidb> yeah, worth noting it can be useful to mention other nicks involved in the push
- # [20:02] <@davidb> finishing and landing is a big part of the process :)
- # [20:02] <capella> hmmm?
- # [20:03] <@davidb> Bug 12345 Foo far fie fee. r=khuey , f=tbsaunde, original-patch=surkov
- # [20:03] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12345 nor, P1, M11, jefft, VERI FIXED, [DOGFOOD] Unable to Forward a message received as an Inline page or an attachment
- # [20:03] <@davidb> heh
- # [20:04] <@davidb> oh!
- # [20:04] <@davidb> it was also trevors patch
- # [20:04] <@davidb> i see what you mean on team effort
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- # [20:04] <capella> The line generated in the patch by mercurial
- # [20:04] <capella> # User Mark Capella <markcapella@twcny.rr.com>
- # [20:04] <capella> This is just a comment I can change?
- # [20:04] <@hub> there is an "original-patch" ?
- # [20:04] <@davidb> hub: you can make stuff up
- # [20:04] <@davidb> i usually put such notes on a second line
- # [20:05] <@hub> capella: btw no need to set the milestone if it is at ---
- # [20:05] <@hub> capella: it will be set properly when merging to m-c
- # [20:05] <@davidb> hub: i thought they liked us to do that now
- # [20:05] <capella> yes ... i keep forgetting they changed that for the better recently
- # [20:06] <@hub> You do not need to set the target milestone any more (if it is set already though, please check it is correct!), since the new merge script will do that for you.
- # [20:06] <@hub> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Tree_Rules/Inbound#Please_do_the_following_after_pushing_to_inbound
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- # [20:06] <capella> thought the new rule allowed you to explicitly continue to set it ... just be sure to get it right kinda thing
- # [20:07] <@davidb> yeah that's what i heard
- # [20:07] <capella> so nice little surprise for alex when he gets back
- # [20:09] <@davidb> :)
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- # [20:12] <@davidb> capella: note you can push on other's behalf "hg help qrefresh" (see -u)
- # [20:13] <@davidb> not a big deal (though can be for some), but in general it is good to have all the potential blame candidate mention in the commit message
- # [20:13] <@davidb> candidates.
- # [20:14] <@davidb> i've missed this myself once or twice
- # [20:14] <capella> yah .... now if it crashes and burns everyone yells my name
- # [20:14] <@davidb> exactly
- # [20:14] <capella> or khuey since he approved it :)
- # [20:15] <@davidb> hub, capella here's an example of what i mean by using more than one line: http://hg.mozilla.org/integration/mozilla-inbound/rev/0d48a869291f
- # [20:15] <khuey> that's not how review works
- # [20:15] <khuey> you bear all the responsibility
- # [20:15] <@davidb> khuey: indeed
- # [20:15] <@hub> davidb: I actually didn't know we could use multiline commit messages.
- # [20:15] <@davidb> often people will look at the bug
- # [20:16] <@davidb> hub: yes sir.
- # [20:16] <@hub> danke
- # [20:16] <@davidb> i still remember dbaron helped me once and i forgot to put his nick :(
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- # [20:18] <capella> id like to figure out how to use multiline commit combined with try syntax ... had to resort to using a shill bug patch
- # [20:18] <@davidb> hub: BTW \o/ congrats!
- # [20:18] <capella> to get my push to look nice
- # [20:18] <@davidb> capella: what do you want to do?
- # [20:18] <@davidb> oh you want the try syntax on a diff line?
- # [20:19] <capella> make the try syntax take ... and see the commit message in the tree all at once not sure it can be done
- # [20:19] <@davidb> oh do you use the command line wizard?
- # [20:19] <@davidb> i usually just add it to my commit message
- # [20:20] <capella> so i push a separate bug999999 in addition to my patch with the try syntax ive gotten from the web page
- # [20:20] <capella> , also uses bug999998, bug999997 for different try situations
- # [20:21] <@davidb> that's fine
- # [20:21] <capella> just an empty patch housing the try syntax so my actual patch commit message shows
- # [20:21] <@davidb> do you need the bug9999..?
- # [20:21] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9999 nor, P3, M13, law, VERI FIXED, Closing Apprunner window fails to terminate relevant Open Location dialog
- # [20:22] <@davidb> firebot: thanks
- # [20:22] <capella> firebot not interacting a lot
- # [20:22] * @davidb pats firebot
- # [20:22] <@davidb> firebot: capella?
- # [20:23] <capella> that would nornmally show capella is the programmer formally known as mark_capella
- # [20:23] <capella> formerly
- # [20:23] <@davidb> firebot: bug 100
- # [20:24] <capella> firebot: whats the bug for fixing the plumbing in the mens room?
- # [20:25] <@davidb> capella: did you know about that bug?
- # [20:25] <@davidb> it was real
- # [20:25] <capella> yah theres a joke list somewhere
- # [20:26] <capella> and i thought >i< had too much fun around here :p
- # [20:26] <@hub> davidb: yeah and there was a lot of pot holes on the road before check-in
- # [20:26] <@davidb> yeah
- # [20:26] <@davidb> i know
- # [20:26] <@hub> I was almost expecting an orange of some sort at the last minute
- # [20:26] <@davidb> hub: so how is your queue?
- # [20:28] <hub_lime> cleared out
- # [20:28] <hub_lime> I have nothing pending review
- # [20:28] <@davidb> well well well
- # [20:29] <hub_lime> working on 668469 that seems to plague me in DOM Inspector
- # [20:30] <@davidb> ok well we're scheduled to meet on Monday… let's chat about fun new directions then.
- # [20:32] <@hub> ok
- # [20:32] <@hub> btw I'm wondering how this work impact thunderbird
- # [20:34] <@davidb> which work?
- # [20:38] <@hub> mac a11y
- # [20:38] <@hub> and Thunderbird on Mac
- # [20:38] <@hub> maybe that's where I actually build it
- # [20:40] <@hub> like to see if I don't break it and make it more accessible
- # [20:40] <@davidb> oh ok
- # [20:40] <@davidb> that would be interesting
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- # [20:59] <capella> ive decided to hate WIN8 ... is that so bad?
- # [20:59] <@davidb> no.
- # [20:59] * @davidb edits his patch review manifesto
- # [20:59] <capella> tried to download it yesterday ... AND IT WOULDNT EVEN INSTALL!
- # [21:01] <capella> davidb: put there ... authors may decide to use if (x ==y) vs if (y == x) :p
- # [21:01] <@davidb> :)
- # [21:02] <capella> unless its the second tuesday of the month
- # [21:02] <capella> then you get a royal fizzbin
- # [21:05] <@davidb> wow i have a lot of "though shalt nots"
- # [21:06] <capella> whoa! WIN8 has MINIMUM HARDWARE requirements? oh thats it ... just too much to bear
- # [21:21] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
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- # [21:47] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org granted review for attachment 634976 on bug 761910.
- # [21:47] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=761910 nor, --, ---, andrew.quartey, ASSI, add text attributes testing for HTML5 mark color
- # [21:48] <@firebot> andrew.quartey@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 639761 on bug 767757.
- # [21:48] <@firebot> andrew.quartey@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 767757 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
- # [21:48] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=767757 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Move nsAccessNode::Init() to Accessible::Init()
- # [22:24] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
- # [22:45] <@davidb> have a great weekend
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- # [23:24] <@hub> capella: you mean Win8 no longer run on 386 with 640KB of RAM?
- # [23:24] <capella> can you BELIEVE it????
- # [23:25] <capella> Thats it - im porting to android
- # [23:28] <capella> May buy a Galaxy S III .... sooooo close ......
- # [23:29] <capella> back later ... pizza run....
- # [23:30] <@hub> it is more powerful that an i386 PC
- # [23:30] <capella> yah .. soooo cool !
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- # Session Close: Sat Jul 07 00:00:00 2012
The end :)