/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2012-07-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jul 06 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
  3. # [00:06] <@tbsaunde|afk> davidb: sounds good
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  15. # [01:24] <@hub> this reboot was brought to you by Kernel and Panic
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  33. # [05:45] <@firebot> New Firefox - Keyboard Navigation bug 771411 filed by bzcc@fowlsmurf.net.
  34. # [05:45] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=771411 nor, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, Chrome-initiated keyup events propagated to content
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  65. # [09:43] <@MarcoZ> Yawn....Good day all!
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  82. # [15:08] <@davidb> heyo
  83. # [15:08] <@MarcoZ> Hi davidb!
  84. # [15:09] <@davidb> hi hi
  85. # [15:09] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Thanks for the blog post! OMG :)
  86. # [15:10] <@davidb> lol
  87. # [15:10] <@MarcoZ> I totally forgot that we had this conversation and you took notes of what I said! (and no, permission still granted ;) ).
  88. # [15:10] <@davidb> i knew it :)
  89. # [15:11] <@MarcoZ> I finally wrote my web apps vs. native apps thingie today which has been going around in my head for over 2 1/2 years.
  90. # [15:11] <@davidb> oh good - is it posted?
  91. # [15:12] <Stevef> davidb: want you = input on canvas lightweight hit regions
  92. # [15:12] <@MarcoZ> Yes! http://www.marcozehe.de/2012/07/06/are-web-apps-accessible-enough-to-replace-desktop-applications-any-time-soon/
  93. # [15:12] <@davidb> Stevef: saw your tweet
  94. # [15:12] <Stevef> davidb: have been lurking for hours waiting for you to surface, patience rewarded
  95. # [15:13] <@davidb> Stevef: hahah
  96. # [15:13] <@davidb> I want to give it a proper going over
  97. # [15:13] <@MarcoZ> stevef: Fucking timezones, eh? :D
  98. # [15:13] <Stevef> davidb: really acc implementers should have been looking at this before, but better late...
  99. # [15:13] <@davidb> Stevef: is it about hit regions?
  100. # [15:14] <Stevef> yes
  101. # [15:14] <Stevef> ones that don't have html backing
  102. # [15:14] <@davidb> The folks at Mozilla I've spoken with… all they want to see compelling use cases such that they'd obviously be used in the wild all over the place if we implemented support.
  103. # [15:15] <Stevef> but can assign role and label, so have virtual DOM as well as HTML DOM for AT
  104. # [15:15] * @davidb shrugs
  105. # [15:16] <Stevef> but virtual only for regions really not controls
  106. # [15:16] <Stevef> seems like an implementation burden, but don't have chops to say
  107. # [15:16] <@davidb> Stevef: one thing I'm learning is that it is really hard for me to bless something until I experiment with implementation. I'm finding some corners of the aria spec that are going to hurt perf if we implement them.
  108. # [15:17] <@davidb> I will read it though… I hope within 48 hrs… probably won't reply on twitter though :)
  109. # [15:17] <Stevef> what i would like is acc engineer to review proposal and critique, is it workable is nit needed etc
  110. # [15:17] <@davidb> is it big?
  111. # [15:17] <Stevef> no
  112. # [15:17] <@davidb> ok
  113. # [15:18] <Stevef> couple of pages http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#hit-regions
  114. # [15:19] <@davidb> ok, i've got a post-it of stuff i need to do first
  115. # [15:19] <Stevef> specifically
  116. # [15:19] <Stevef> Optionally, either a control, or an unbacked region description.
  117. # [15:20] <Stevef> A control is just a reference to an Element node, to which, in certain conditions, the user agent will route events, and from which the user agent will determine the state of the hit region for the purposes of accessibility tools.
  118. # [15:20] <Stevef> An unbacked region description consists of the following:
  119. # [15:20] <Stevef> Optionally, a label.
  120. # [15:20] <Stevef> An ARIA role, which, if the unbacked region description also has a label, could be the empty string.
  121. # [15:20] <@davidb> I see what you are doing here :)
  122. # [15:21] <Stevef> I am questioning whether additon of a vrtual DOM for non control like hit regions is worth it and asking for ARIA roles that can be used to be limited since the unbacked regions cannot receieve focus
  123. # [15:21] <@davidb> is the reason to have unbacked stuff because people deem the html backed regions too heavyweight?
  124. # [15:21] <Stevef> yes
  125. # [15:21] <@davidb> i see
  126. # [15:21] <@davidb> need use cases. preferable a whole bunch.
  127. # [15:21] <@davidb> e/y
  128. # [15:22] <Stevef> but unbacked cannot have states or properies assigned so limited in what acc information they can convey I think
  129. # [15:22] <@davidb> Stevef: well, surkov would tell you about something that has been incubating (which we have zero time to work on)
  130. # [15:22] <@davidb> DOM a11y API
  131. # [15:23] <Stevef> anyway will leave you and your mozillian brains with it, just didn't want it to get accepted into spec without review
  132. # [15:23] <@davidb> element.getAccessibleName etc
  133. # [15:23] <@davidb> haha
  134. # [15:23] <Stevef> hmm sounds interesting
  135. # [15:23] <@davidb> Stevef: you are a mozillian, whether you realize it or not.
  136. # [15:23] <Stevef> oh yeah, but i mean the guys that actually do the work :-)
  137. # [15:23] <@davidb> psh
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  139. # [15:24] <@davidb> speaking of which…
  140. # [15:24] <Stevef> for sure I'm a fan
  141. # [15:24] * @davidb looks at post-it
  142. # [15:29] <@davidb> Stevef: https://mozillians.org/en-US/Stevef
  143. # [15:29] <@davidb> i rest my case
  144. # [15:30] <Stevef> davidb: and if you do reply be good if you responded to thread discussing proposal on HTML WG
  145. # [15:30] <Stevef> davidb: OK you got me...
  146. # [15:30] <@davidb> ok
  147. # [15:30] <@davidb> :)
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  152. # [15:39] <@davidb> MarcoZ: i don't think you explicitly mention thunderbird
  153. # [15:39] <@davidb> but i guess you use apple mail more
  154. # [15:40] <@MarcoZ> davidb: I don't explicitly mention Thunderbird, no, but on Windows, it's all I use. :)
  155. # [15:40] <@MarcoZ> On Mac, I use Apple Mail indeed.
  156. # [15:53] <@davidb> MarcoZ: it seems to me we need to bump the priority of our app dev kit accessibility as high as possible
  157. # [15:53] <@MarcoZ> Stevef: Thanks for the tweet! :)
  158. # [15:53] <@davidb> MarcoZ: …and you say this in the next paragraph haha
  159. # [15:54] <Stevef> MarcoZ: no problem you always provide good info, just reading the discussion between you and yatil.
  160. # [15:55] <Stevef> MarcoZ have you fed back to Dennis L your easy chirp critique? I am sure he would take notice
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  162. # [15:57] <@MarcoZ> Stevef: No, I haven't talked to him about this directly yet. The problem is to make this a true web app more than a collection of more or less static pages, which it is now, it would need a massive re-write.
  163. # [15:58] <@MarcoZ> And it *is* accessible, my point was merely to demonstrate that this is still a long way from being as effective as a native app.
  164. # [15:59] <Stevef> sure, but usability is important an 'accessible' page with poor usability is a shame cosidering all the work he has put into ot
  165. # [15:59] <Stevef> s/cosidering/considering/
  166. # [16:00] <@MarcoZ> If he wasn't aware of the workflow until now, to put it in a cheeky way, he hasn't ever used the site with a screen reader. :)
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  169. # [16:24] <@davidb> Cheeky!
  170. # [16:31] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Don't say I didn't warn ya! ;)
  171. # [16:32] <@davidb> the truth will set us free
  172. # [16:39] <@MarcoZ> LOL
  173. # [16:46] <@davidb> clown: what is the name of that head/face tracker on linux?
  174. # [16:46] <@davidb> uses the camera
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  176. # [16:47] <clown> dunno, davidb. I'll see if jsilva knows.
  177. # [16:48] <@davidb> (about 3 years or more ago)
  178. # [16:48] <clown> the wiimote? :-)
  179. # [16:48] <@MarcoZ> Uuuuugly, the Yammer desktop installer is done in inaccessible Flash. Yuck!
  180. # [16:50] <@davidb> clown: ha
  181. # [16:50] <@davidb> no
  182. # [16:50] <clown> davidb, the best jsilva has come up with is "camera mouse". But he's not sure. He thinks he has an old email that might give more info. Holding...
  183. # [16:50] <@davidb> i think flapper was working on it
  184. # [16:51] <clown> jsilva did develop some kind of tracker using a wiimote (it's infrared camera).
  185. # [16:51] <clown> "its" (sheesh)
  186. # [16:51] <@davidb> yeah there was that other dude that did that too
  187. # [16:51] <@davidb> but no that's not it.
  188. # [16:51] <@davidb> thanks for checking
  189. # [16:59] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 718700 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  190. # [16:59] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com set the Resolution field on bug 718700 to FIXED.
  191. # [16:59] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 718700 from --- to mozilla16.
  192. # [16:59] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=718700 nor, P2, mozilla16, hub, RESO FIXED, [Mac] WAI-ARIA landmarks are not communicated to VoiceOver.
  193. # [16:59] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 718625 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  194. # [16:59] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com set the Resolution field on bug 718625 to FIXED.
  195. # [16:59] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 718625 from --- to mozilla16.
  196. # [16:59] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=718625 nor, P2, mozilla16, hub, RESO FIXED, [Mac] VoiceOver says "text" after each chunk of text it reads inside paragraphs, does not do that in
  197. # [16:59] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 758799 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  198. # [16:59] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com set the Resolution field on bug 758799 to FIXED.
  199. # [16:59] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 758799 from --- to mozilla16.
  200. # [16:59] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=758799 nor, --, mozilla16, hub, RESO FIXED, [Mac] remove mIsExpired from mozAccessible
  201. # [16:59] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 750612 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  202. # [17:00] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com set the Resolution field on bug 750612 to FIXED.
  203. # [17:00] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 750612 from --- to mozilla16.
  204. # [17:00] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=750612 maj, --, mozilla16, hub, RESO FIXED, [Mac] Too much is exposed to VoiceOver that is actually not currently visible/interactable
  205. # [17:00] <ehsan> davidb: firebot on this channel makes me sooooo sad
  206. # [17:01] <@davidb> ehsan: i can ping you just as often
  207. # [17:01] <@davidb> ehsan
  208. # [17:01] <@davidb> stop me, ehsan
  209. # [17:01] <ehsan> davidb: that would make me leave this channel...
  210. # [17:01] <ehsan> and you all will miss me
  211. # [17:01] <@davidb> hmmm
  212. # [17:02] <@davidb> fine!
  213. # [17:02] <@davidb> your name is an anagram of shane
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  216. # [17:03] <@davidb> finally - working mochitests on windows again!
  217. # [17:04] <clown> davidb, jsilva has found two: "eviacam" (http://eviacam.sourceforge.net/) and "opengazer" (http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/opengazer/)
  218. # [17:04] <@davidb> (my build directory was so so borked)
  219. # [17:04] <@davidb> clown: thanks. joanie remembered "mousetrap"
  220. # [17:05] <clown> wlcm davidb.
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  224. # [17:20] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 771521 filed by dbolter@mozilla.com.
  225. # [17:20] <@firebot> Bug 771521 was not found.
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  228. # [17:45] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  229. # [17:48] <@MarcoZ> Phew, those Mac patches finally landed!
  230. # [17:51] <@davidb> bloody right
  231. # [18:12] <Stevef> Notes on Web Components + ARIA http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2012/07/notes-on-web-components-aria/
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  238. # [18:32] <@MarcoZ> OK, I'm off for the weekend. See you on Monday!
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  249. # [19:59] <@firebot> markcapella@twcny.rr.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 762770 from --- to mozilla16.
  250. # [19:59] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=762770 nor, --, mozilla16, surkov.alexander, NEW, implement IAccessibleEx
  251. # [19:59] * Quits: arky (arky@moz-29CE2B63.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net) (Client exited)
  252. # [20:01] <@davidb> capella: nice
  253. # [20:01] <capella> i cant tae much credit - just polished it and put it to bed for the guys
  254. # [20:02] <@davidb> yeah, worth noting it can be useful to mention other nicks involved in the push
  255. # [20:02] <@davidb> finishing and landing is a big part of the process :)
  256. # [20:02] <capella> hmmm?
  257. # [20:03] <@davidb> Bug 12345 Foo far fie fee. r=khuey , f=tbsaunde, original-patch=surkov
  258. # [20:03] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12345 nor, P1, M11, jefft, VERI FIXED, [DOGFOOD] Unable to Forward a message received as an Inline page or an attachment
  259. # [20:03] <@davidb> heh
  260. # [20:04] <@davidb> oh!
  261. # [20:04] <@davidb> it was also trevors patch
  262. # [20:04] <@davidb> i see what you mean on team effort
  263. # [20:04] * Quits: a-865 (fmcz@moz-A5D13CA.cable.mindspring.com) (Ping timeout)
  264. # [20:04] <capella> The line generated in the patch by mercurial
  265. # [20:04] <capella> # User Mark Capella <markcapella@twcny.rr.com>
  266. # [20:04] <capella> This is just a comment I can change?
  267. # [20:04] <@hub> there is an "original-patch" ?
  268. # [20:04] <@davidb> hub: you can make stuff up
  269. # [20:04] <@davidb> i usually put such notes on a second line
  270. # [20:05] <@hub> capella: btw no need to set the milestone if it is at ---
  271. # [20:05] <@hub> capella: it will be set properly when merging to m-c
  272. # [20:05] <@davidb> hub: i thought they liked us to do that now
  273. # [20:05] <capella> yes ... i keep forgetting they changed that for the better recently
  274. # [20:06] <@hub> You do not need to set the target milestone any more (if it is set already though, please check it is correct!), since the new merge script will do that for you.
  275. # [20:06] <@hub> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Tree_Rules/Inbound#Please_do_the_following_after_pushing_to_inbound
  276. # [20:06] * Joins: jprmc (jprmc@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
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  278. # [20:06] <capella> thought the new rule allowed you to explicitly continue to set it ... just be sure to get it right kinda thing
  279. # [20:07] <@davidb> yeah that's what i heard
  280. # [20:07] <capella> so nice little surprise for alex when he gets back
  281. # [20:09] <@davidb> :)
  282. # [20:12] * Quits: @jprmc (jprmc@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Ping timeout)
  283. # [20:12] <@davidb> capella: note you can push on other's behalf "hg help qrefresh" (see -u)
  284. # [20:13] <@davidb> not a big deal (though can be for some), but in general it is good to have all the potential blame candidate mention in the commit message
  285. # [20:13] <@davidb> candidates.
  286. # [20:14] <@davidb> i've missed this myself once or twice
  287. # [20:14] <capella> yah .... now if it crashes and burns everyone yells my name
  288. # [20:14] <@davidb> exactly
  289. # [20:14] <capella> or khuey since he approved it :)
  290. # [20:15] <@davidb> hub, capella here's an example of what i mean by using more than one line: http://hg.mozilla.org/integration/mozilla-inbound/rev/0d48a869291f
  291. # [20:15] <khuey> that's not how review works
  292. # [20:15] <khuey> you bear all the responsibility
  293. # [20:15] <@davidb> khuey: indeed
  294. # [20:15] <@hub> davidb: I actually didn't know we could use multiline commit messages.
  295. # [20:15] <@davidb> often people will look at the bug
  296. # [20:16] <@davidb> hub: yes sir.
  297. # [20:16] <@hub> danke
  298. # [20:16] <@davidb> i still remember dbaron helped me once and i forgot to put his nick :(
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  300. # [20:18] <capella> id like to figure out how to use multiline commit combined with try syntax ... had to resort to using a shill bug patch
  301. # [20:18] <@davidb> hub: BTW \o/ congrats!
  302. # [20:18] <capella> to get my push to look nice
  303. # [20:18] <@davidb> capella: what do you want to do?
  304. # [20:18] <@davidb> oh you want the try syntax on a diff line?
  305. # [20:19] <capella> make the try syntax take ... and see the commit message in the tree all at once not sure it can be done
  306. # [20:19] <@davidb> oh do you use the command line wizard?
  307. # [20:19] <@davidb> i usually just add it to my commit message
  308. # [20:20] <capella> so i push a separate bug999999 in addition to my patch with the try syntax ive gotten from the web page
  309. # [20:20] <capella> , also uses bug999998, bug999997 for different try situations
  310. # [20:21] <@davidb> that's fine
  311. # [20:21] <capella> just an empty patch housing the try syntax so my actual patch commit message shows
  312. # [20:21] <@davidb> do you need the bug9999..?
  313. # [20:21] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9999 nor, P3, M13, law, VERI FIXED, Closing Apprunner window fails to terminate relevant Open Location dialog
  314. # [20:22] <@davidb> firebot: thanks
  315. # [20:22] <capella> firebot not interacting a lot
  316. # [20:22] * @davidb pats firebot
  317. # [20:22] <@davidb> firebot: capella?
  318. # [20:23] <capella> that would nornmally show capella is the programmer formally known as mark_capella
  319. # [20:23] <capella> formerly
  320. # [20:23] <@davidb> firebot: bug 100
  321. # [20:24] <capella> firebot: whats the bug for fixing the plumbing in the mens room?
  322. # [20:25] <@davidb> capella: did you know about that bug?
  323. # [20:25] <@davidb> it was real
  324. # [20:25] <capella> yah theres a joke list somewhere
  325. # [20:26] <capella> and i thought >i< had too much fun around here :p
  326. # [20:26] <@hub> davidb: yeah and there was a lot of pot holes on the road before check-in
  327. # [20:26] <@davidb> yeah
  328. # [20:26] <@davidb> i know
  329. # [20:26] <@hub> I was almost expecting an orange of some sort at the last minute
  330. # [20:26] <@davidb> hub: so how is your queue?
  331. # [20:28] <hub_lime> cleared out
  332. # [20:28] <hub_lime> I have nothing pending review
  333. # [20:28] <@davidb> well well well
  334. # [20:29] <hub_lime> working on 668469 that seems to plague me in DOM Inspector
  335. # [20:30] <@davidb> ok well we're scheduled to meet on Monday… let's chat about fun new directions then.
  336. # [20:32] <@hub> ok
  337. # [20:32] <@hub> btw I'm wondering how this work impact thunderbird
  338. # [20:34] <@davidb> which work?
  339. # [20:38] <@hub> mac a11y
  340. # [20:38] <@hub> and Thunderbird on Mac
  341. # [20:38] <@hub> maybe that's where I actually build it
  342. # [20:40] <@hub> like to see if I don't break it and make it more accessible
  343. # [20:40] <@davidb> oh ok
  344. # [20:40] <@davidb> that would be interesting
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  347. # [20:59] <capella> ive decided to hate WIN8 ... is that so bad?
  348. # [20:59] <@davidb> no.
  349. # [20:59] * @davidb edits his patch review manifesto
  350. # [20:59] <capella> tried to download it yesterday ... AND IT WOULDNT EVEN INSTALL!
  351. # [21:01] <capella> davidb: put there ... authors may decide to use if (x ==y) vs if (y == x) :p
  352. # [21:01] <@davidb> :)
  353. # [21:02] <capella> unless its the second tuesday of the month
  354. # [21:02] <capella> then you get a royal fizzbin
  355. # [21:05] <@davidb> wow i have a lot of "though shalt nots"
  356. # [21:06] <capella> whoa! WIN8 has MINIMUM HARDWARE requirements? oh thats it ... just too much to bear
  357. # [21:21] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  358. # [21:28] * Joins: Mic (Instantbir@moz-AA7C8BFE.superkabel.de)
  359. # [21:47] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org granted review for attachment 634976 on bug 761910.
  360. # [21:47] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=761910 nor, --, ---, andrew.quartey, ASSI, add text attributes testing for HTML5 mark color
  361. # [21:48] <@firebot> andrew.quartey@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 639761 on bug 767757.
  362. # [21:48] <@firebot> andrew.quartey@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 767757 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
  363. # [21:48] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=767757 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Move nsAccessNode::Init() to Accessible::Init()
  364. # [22:24] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
  365. # [22:45] <@davidb> have a great weekend
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  371. # [23:24] <@hub> capella: you mean Win8 no longer run on 386 with 640KB of RAM?
  372. # [23:24] <capella> can you BELIEVE it????
  373. # [23:25] <capella> Thats it - im porting to android
  374. # [23:28] <capella> May buy a Galaxy S III .... sooooo close ......
  375. # [23:29] <capella> back later ... pizza run....
  376. # [23:30] <@hub> it is more powerful that an i386 PC
  377. # [23:30] <capella> yah .. soooo cool !
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  380. # Session Close: Sat Jul 07 00:00:00 2012

The end :)