/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2012-07-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jul 10 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  33. # [02:56] <@firebot> hobinjk@gmail.com requested review from bmcbride@mozilla.co m for attachment 640459 on bug 492557.
  34. # [02:56] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=492557 nor, --, ---, hobinjk, ASSI, Create a keyboard shortcut HUD
  35. # [03:29] <@firebot> markcapella@twcny.rr.com changed the Status on bug 761064 from ASSIGNED to NEW.
  36. # [03:29] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=761064 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, mTreeView null check aren't necessary for XUL tree item/cell classes
  37. # [04:09] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com granted review for attachment 639761 on bug 767757.
  38. # [04:09] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=767757 nor, --, ---, andrew.quartey, ASSI, Move nsAccessNode::Init() to Accessible::Init()
  39. # [04:28] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com denied review for attachment 639319 on bug 769452.
  40. # [04:28] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=769452 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, use NS_FORWARD_NSIACCESSIBLETABLE on accessible tables instead of custom macro
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  92. # [05:20] <capella> try = 3500???
  93. # [05:23] <tbsaunde> capella: try is swamped with jobs again? :/
  94. # [05:25] <capella> 3500! thats as big as ive ever seen it
  95. # [05:28] <khuey> I've seen 5k before
  96. # [05:30] <capella> we all must have saved it up from the weekend
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  118. # [09:47] <capella> marcoz: are you there tonight?
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  120. # [10:01] <marcoz> capella: Yes, I'm here, and it's my morning already. ;)
  121. # [10:03] <capella> right.......... i should have said >currently< :)
  122. # [10:03] <capella> I was wondering if you knew anything about the UIAutomation Stuff? Theres a few small bug / enhancements
  123. # [10:03] <capella> Surkov created .... I'm wondering how would I test something?
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  126. # [10:34] <marcoz> capella: Sorry, UIA is completely new to me as well. I believe the Microsoft VS will have testing tools.
  127. # [10:35] <capella> Well... it builds clean, it must run ok :P
  128. # [10:35] <capella> wait ... msoft VS?
  129. # [10:36] <capella> Visual Studio has something?
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  136. # [11:41] <tbsaunde> capella: I seem to remember there being some sort of ui automation inspector / verifier thing
  137. # [11:41] <tbsaunde> capella: surkov wrote a blog post about that stuff, you might try reading that
  138. # [11:42] <capella> i found a MS download tool ... and im also debugging it and inspector.exe ... havent verified that my code is even being executed yet
  139. # [11:42] <capella> but trying :)
  140. # [11:42] <capella> VisualUIAVerify.exe
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  143. # [11:57] <capella> found the blog ... dang! theres a prefs I need to set
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  146. # [12:15] <@firebot> markcapella@twcny.rr.com requested feedback from surkov.alexander@ gmail.com for attachment 640547 on bug 762806.
  147. # [12:15] <@firebot> markcapella@twcny.rr.com changed the Status on bug 762806 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
  148. # [12:16] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=762806 nor, --, ---, markcapella, ASSI, implement UIA_AcceleratorKeyPropertyId and UIA_AccessKeyPropertyId
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  152. # [12:58] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com cancelled feedback?(surkov.alexander@ gmail.com) for attachment 640547 on bug 762806.
  153. # [12:58] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=762806 nor, --, ---, markcapella, ASSI, implement UIA_AcceleratorKeyPropertyId and UIA_AccessKeyPropertyId
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  160. # [15:16] <tbsaunde> davidb: I was thinking about wondering over to the office fairly shortly
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  162. # [15:17] <tbsaunde> *wandering
  163. # [15:18] <@davidb> tbsaunde: sure
  164. # [15:18] <@davidb> tbsaunde: where are you?
  165. # [15:18] <tbsaunde> davidb: the address is 361 front st w.
  166. # [15:19] <@davidb> tbsaunde: cool, do you know the way?
  167. # [15:19] <tbsaunde> davidb: ok, I guess I'll leave when this build finishes
  168. # [15:19] <@davidb> ok!
  169. # [15:19] * @davidb turns his mobile phone ringer on
  170. # [15:19] <tbsaunde> davidb: no, guess I'll find out though ;)
  171. # [15:20] <@davidb> tbsaunde: I have no meetings this morning. How about I come meet you there and we'll walk?
  172. # [15:21] <tbsaunde> davidb: well, might be easier to learn the way if I'm alone
  173. # [15:21] <@davidb> tbsaunde: up to you
  174. # [15:21] <tbsaunde> since if we're together we'll talk and that distracts me
  175. # [15:21] <@davidb> looks like you can just walk north up blue jays way
  176. # [15:22] <@davidb> tbsaunde: there is a bit of construction on adelaide, NW corner of adelaide and blue jays way
  177. # [15:22] <@davidb> but if you go in straight lines should be ok
  178. # [15:23] <@davidb> if you feel like silent company let me know
  179. # [15:24] <tbsaunde> davidb: meh, its fine I'll figure it out :)
  180. # [15:24] <@davidb> walking west to spadina and then north to adelaide might be good too
  181. # [15:24] <@davidb> yeah
  182. # [15:24] <@davidb> ok
  183. # [15:24] <@davidb> tbsaunde: is it temp housing or did you find a place?
  184. # [15:24] <tbsaunde> davidb: temp housing
  185. # [15:24] <@davidb> ok
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  187. # [15:26] <@davidb> MarcoZ: I think I made the profiler tool link creation a bit more accessible yesterday.
  188. # [15:27] <marcoz> davidb: Very nice!
  189. # [15:27] <@davidb> github is nice
  190. # [15:29] <marcoz> I've come to like it, too.
  191. # [15:30] <tbsaunde> davidb: want to make looking at the results more accessible too? ;)
  192. # [15:30] * tbsaunde starts wandering
  193. # [15:30] <@davidb> tbsaunde: yes
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  196. # [15:46] <@firebot> markcapella@twcny.rr.com changed the Status on bug 769302 from ASSIGNED to NEW.
  197. # [15:46] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=769302 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Please add about:support accessibility status to crash reports
  198. # [15:47] <marcoz> davidb: I'd have an incentive to improve perf on the Mac. GAIA's emulation that runs in Firefox only runs on the Mac and maybe Linux, but not Windows. :)
  199. # [15:47] <@davidb> haha
  200. # [15:48] <@firebot> markcapella@twcny.rr.com changed the Status on bug 762806 from ASSIGNED to NEW.
  201. # [15:48] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=762806 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, implement UIA_AcceleratorKeyPropertyId and UIA_AccessKeyPropertyId
  202. # [15:53] <@firebot> markcapella@twcny.rr.com changed the Status on bug 752823 from ASSIGNED to NEW.
  203. # [15:53] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=752823 nor, --, ---, markcapella, ASSI, turn nsHTMLLiAccessible::mBullet into raw pointer
  204. # [15:57] <@davidb> trevor is here!
  205. # [15:59] <marcoz> \-O-/
  206. # [15:59] <marcoz> Can't wait to get back! I love Toronto, and I very much like the new office!
  207. # [16:16] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
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  210. # [16:50] <@davidb> :)
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  228. # [17:34] * clown_mtg is now known as clown
  229. # [17:35] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  230. # [17:45] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com granted review for attachment 631905 on bug 761853.
  231. # [17:46] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=761853 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, ARIA grid with rowgroup breaks table row/col counting and coordinates
  232. # [18:01] <@davidb> tbsaunde: pinged ya in #toronto
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  239. # [18:20] <@firebot> smichaud@pobox.com changed the Status on bug 771913 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  240. # [18:20] <@firebot> smichaud@pobox.com set the Resolution field on bug 771913 to WORKSFORME.
  241. # [18:21] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=771913 cri, --, ---, nobody, RESO WORKSFORME, firefox crashes in response to typing
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  251. # [19:45] <@davidb> tbsaunde: wanna grab something quick before dev meeting?
  252. # [19:46] <@davidb> i'm at my desk now
  253. # [19:46] <@davidb> i suppose i could reach over and tap your shoulder
  254. # [19:46] <tbsaunde> davidb: I guess, not terribly hungry
  255. # [19:47] <tbsaunde> davidb: feel free in future
  256. # [19:47] <@davidb> tbsaunde: i won't make you eat. but i'm going now.
  257. # [19:53] * Joins: hub (hub@A5087023.2354C43D.D8E68FF6.IP)
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  263. # [20:12] <@davidb> eeejay, hub: tbsaunde is on camera :)
  264. # [20:12] <@davidb> i don't see vancouber
  265. # [20:12] <@hub> is he?
  266. # [20:12] <@davidb> b/v
  267. # [20:12] <@hub> oh
  268. # [20:12] <@hub> davidb: vancouver doesn't join the meeting
  269. # [20:12] <eeejay> slackers
  270. # [20:13] <@davidb> heh
  271. # [20:13] <@davidb> any callouts for a11y?
  272. # [20:13] <@hub> which room is it in again>
  273. # [20:13] <@davidb> warp core
  274. # [20:13] <@hub> I'll try to facemute
  275. # [20:13] <@hub> I don't have the lid open anyway
  276. # [20:13] <eeejay> heh, "facemute"
  277. # [20:15] <@hub> davidb: the fact that I intend to write a component for TTS and work on the API
  278. # [20:15] <@davidb> hub: let's do that next week
  279. # [20:15] * eeejay sees tbsaunde, awesome!
  280. # [20:16] <@hub> davidb: sure
  281. # [20:24] <@hub> mozilla.dev.accessibility is useless as it is full of spam
  282. # [20:25] <@hub> I wonder if sending "cancel" messages (NNTP stuff) would not be frowned upon
  283. # [20:32] <@davidb> hub: dev.platform is good
  284. # [20:33] <@hub> not dev.accessibility
  285. # [20:38] <tbsaunde> hub: what do you want to send?
  286. # [20:39] * Joins: fxa90id (fxa90id@moz-126DAEC5.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  287. # [20:41] <@hub> tbsaunde: nntp control messages to tell the nntp server to delete these spam messages
  288. # [20:41] <@hub> like in the good old days of Usenet
  289. # [20:43] <tbsaunde> hub: oh, I thought you wanted to send something to dev-platform
  290. # [20:45] <@firebot> scoobidiver@netcourrier.com changed the Status on bug 772459 from UNCONFIRMED to NEW.
  291. # [20:45] <@firebot> scoobidiver@netcourrier.com changed the Component on bug 772459 from Untriaged to Disability Access APIs.
  292. # [20:45] <@firebot> scoobidiver@netcourrier.com changed the Product on bug 772459 from Firefox to Core.
  293. # [20:45] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=772459 cri, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Firefox 13.0.1 crashes in nsAccessible::AccessKey @ nsINode::IsElement when using Jaws 13.0.852 to c
  294. # [20:52] <@davidb> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/Planning/Goals
  295. # [20:52] <@davidb> eeejay: ^
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  303. # [21:17] <@davidb> hub, eeejay I'm going to say there will be a meeting this week, but for you guys treat it optional
  304. # [21:17] <@davidb> the main thing i want to get done is written goals
  305. # [21:25] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  306. # [21:30] <tbsaunde> hub: how is tts going? I'd say we should propose an api to dev-webapi soon
  307. # [21:31] <@davidb> I'd like to see a page for it
  308. # [21:31] <@davidb> that gets linked to
  309. # [21:32] <@davidb> similar to http://code.google.com/chrome/extensions/tts.html
  310. # [21:33] <@davidb> but a draft
  311. # [21:34] <tbsaunde> davidb: I've mosly been ignoring dev-webapi so I'm not sure how people are proposing stuff, but I think they may be sending things inline
  312. # [21:34] <@davidb> meh
  313. # [21:34] <tbsaunde> davidb: in particular I think its easier to respond to a proposed api if its inline than a link
  314. # [21:34] <@davidb> why isn't the discussion happening on web platform?
  315. # [21:34] <@davidb> i guess that's true
  316. # [21:34] <tbsaunde> email is the web =P
  317. # [21:34] <@davidb> i'm used to responding about linked specs ;)
  318. # [21:35] <tbsaunde> I haven't delt with specs in a while, but I think I'm more used to the inline proposal
  319. # [21:36] * Quits: @firebot (firebot@moz-F8C1AF63.carolina.res.rr.com) (Excess Flood)
  320. # [21:36] <@hub> tbsaunde: I haven't started actual work
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  323. # [21:36] <@hub> tbsaunde: I was trying to sort out some of the bugs on Mac, still
  324. # [21:36] <@hub> performance
  325. # [21:36] <@davidb> right, at least until uplift
  326. # [21:37] <@davidb> hub: one thing to try is lesioning our code to see what speeds things up.
  327. # [21:37] <tbsaunde> hub: I'd expect the discussion will take a while
  328. # [21:38] <tbsaunde> hub: and while that's happening there isn't really much to do
  329. # [21:38] <@hub> davidb: most of the time spent in the Mac API
  330. # [21:38] <@hub> tbsaunde: my plan is to start from what's in Chrome
  331. # [21:38] <@davidb> hub: right so it is interaction based
  332. # [21:38] <@davidb> ok
  333. # [21:38] <tbsaunde> hub: I'm ok with that as an initial api to propose
  334. # [21:38] <@davidb> tbsaunde: an upfront plan might avoid too much talk.
  335. # [21:39] <@davidb> yeah
  336. # [21:39] <tbsaunde> hub: but there are bits of that api I think could be better, or not exist
  337. # [21:39] <@hub> tbsaunde: that was also eeejay idea :-)
  338. # [21:39] <tbsaunde> for example isSpeaking() has got to go
  339. # [21:39] <@davidb> well interoperability is important
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  341. # [21:40] <@davidb> but yes polling is bad!
  342. # [21:40] <@davidb> also i think eeejay doesn't want tts to be a singleton
  343. # [21:40] <tbsaunde> davidb: its not just polling, is broken
  344. # [21:40] * Joins: Mic (Instantbir@moz-7CE3D9DE.superkabel.de)
  345. # [21:41] <tbsaunde> davidb: I don't completely agree with him on that, but I think we can punt on that
  346. # [21:41] <@davidb> right
  347. # [21:41] <@davidb> i think waiting until after uplift is ok
  348. # [21:42] <tbsaunde> davidb: in particular isSpeaking() { return rand() % 2 == 0; } is in some sense the most corret possible implementationk
  349. # [21:42] <@davidb> lol
  350. # [21:42] * Quits: fxa90id (fxa90id@moz-126DAEC5.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) (Ping timeout)
  351. # [21:42] <tbsaunde> davidb: if hub wants to work on mac I can send mail, shouldn't take to long
  352. # [21:43] <@davidb> tbsaunde: check with both hub and eeejay first.
  353. # [21:44] <tbsaunde> davidb: also note compatability isn't that big a deal since afaik chromes thing is extenssions only
  354. # [21:44] <tbsaunde> davidb: sure
  355. # [21:44] * Joins: atuljangra (Mibbit@6A2697BD.BAF7D2E9.402AA3CF.IP)
  356. # [21:45] <@davidb> not trying to be stop energy but there are things i want to happen firs (including agreement among ourselves)
  357. # [21:45] <@davidb> benetech had interesting input into what they'd like to see in an api last time i spoke to them (about 18 months ago)
  358. # [21:46] <tbsaunde> davidb: ok
  359. # [21:46] <@davidb> tbsaunde: i'd love to see you take a crack at wordsmithing our core goal
  360. # [21:46] <tbsaunde> davidb: its just not clear to me how much sense it makes for us to try and agree before trying to agree with other moz people
  361. # [21:46] <@davidb> yes there are trade offs.
  362. # [21:47] <tbsaunde> davidb: honestly I have no idea what one goal would be
  363. # [21:47] <tbsaunde> other than maybe another x %faster
  364. # [21:47] <tbsaunde> which since was hard to measure I expect will be again
  365. # [21:48] <@davidb> tbsaunde: how about creating a measurement goal then? fix up the talos situation.
  366. # [21:48] <@davidb> this is important.
  367. # [21:49] <@davidb> the goals have to be aligned with what we think are most important, and ideally to be measurable, and things we know we can work on.
  368. # [21:49] <@davidb> in general i feel like there are too many unknowns.
  369. # [21:50] <@davidb> like who is instantiated a11y. (hopefully the crash stats line item will help)
  370. # [21:51] <tbsaunde> davidb: true
  371. # [21:51] <tbsaunde> davidb: so, if we think b2g and android perf is important we should be working on making sure js apis are fat
  372. # [21:51] <tbsaunde> fast too :)
  373. # [21:51] <@davidb> the awesome thing about the core work is it helps all our platforms.
  374. # [21:52] <tbsaunde> true
  375. # [21:52] <@davidb> well, the APIs are mostly async right?
  376. # [21:52] <tbsaunde> davidb: which?
  377. # [21:52] <@davidb> there are callbacks for words sentences etc
  378. # [21:52] <@davidb> like speak
  379. # [21:52] <tbsaunde> I can't think of any that are async off hand
  380. # [21:52] <@davidb> is chrome.tts.speak an instant return?
  381. # [21:53] <tbsaunde> davidb: I think so
  382. # [21:53] <tbsaunde> davidb: I thought you were talking about nsIAccessible interfaces
  383. # [21:53] <@davidb> ah, no.
  384. # [21:53] <@davidb> tts
  385. # [21:53] <tbsaunde> davidb: making tts fast doesn't seem hard though
  386. # [21:53] <@davidb> right
  387. # [21:54] <tbsaunde> davidb: yeah, I think chromes is async, and that seems reasonable
  388. # [21:54] <@davidb> (and yes it is surely an instant return)
  389. # [21:54] <tbsaunde> I doubt we want to make espeak / pico / whatever use less memory / cpu so there doesn't seem to be a perf goal there
  390. # [21:54] <@davidb> we don't have to worry too much about cross-process-sync api for accessfu
  391. # [21:55] <@davidb> right
  392. # [21:55] <@firebot> lukas.polcer@gmail.com changed the Component on bug 772607 from Untriaged to Keyboard Navigation.
  393. # [21:55] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=772607 cri, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, Firefox 14
  394. # [21:56] <tbsaunde> davidb: I'm not sure what the relavence of cross process calls is other than maybe a speed advantage
  395. # [21:56] <tbsaunde> but on the other hand it does have to call through xpconnect
  396. # [21:57] <@davidb> i brought that up because you mentioned fast APIs
  397. # [21:57] <@davidb> that is the worst design - the MSAA style
  398. # [21:57] <@davidb> yeah
  399. # [21:57] <@davidb> hopefully that is fast
  400. # [21:58] <tbsaunde> davidb: what is the worst design?
  401. # [21:58] <@davidb> tbsaunde: syncing on event handlers
  402. # [21:58] <@davidb> but
  403. # [21:59] <@davidb> hang on
  404. # [21:59] <@davidb> what did you mean by fast apis?
  405. # [22:01] <tbsaunde> davidb: making things like SelectedItems() fast
  406. # [22:01] <tbsaunde> not really sure how to measure that
  407. # [22:01] <@davidb> so you mean making the implementation of the api methods fast?
  408. # [22:02] <tbsaunde> davidb: yes
  409. # [22:02] <@davidb> because you can also get quickness through the design itself.
  410. # [22:02] <@davidb> which is what i thought you meant
  411. # [22:02] <@davidb> ok.
  412. # [22:02] <@davidb> i think both go hand in hand
  413. # [22:02] <tbsaunde> davidb: I think that's all we hae to play with unless we want to look at usingthe new DOM bindings stuff instead of xpcom
  414. # [22:03] <tbsaunde> davidb: we can certainly change the api too if there are things we can do that are faster
  415. # [22:03] <@davidb> well, API design can be fast by only serving up what is needed. (e.g. event registry)
  416. # [22:04] <@davidb> there are probably things we could bail out on for b2g+accessfu for example
  417. # [22:04] * Quits: Stevef (chatzilla@moz-CD0F47B5.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout)
  418. # [22:04] <tbsaunde> davidb: maybe, but I'm still not terribly excited about that way of being fast
  419. # [22:04] <@davidb> fair
  420. # [22:05] <@davidb> i'm forced to think in this space sometimes.
  421. # [22:05] <@davidb> disclaimer: i'm not really an egomaniac. but i'd like to redesign the whole a11y system.
  422. # [22:06] <@davidb> maybe one night over beers.
  423. # [22:07] <tbsaunde> ok, heh
  424. # [22:07] <@davidb> tbsaunde: what time you meeting the location person?
  425. # [22:07] <tbsaunde> davidb: 1830
  426. # [22:07] <@davidb> oh lots of time
  427. # [22:07] <tbsaunde> so probably leave by 1800
  428. # [22:08] <tbsaunde> yup
  429. # [22:08] <@davidb> yeah - meeting at front?
  430. # [22:08] <tbsaunde> yeah
  431. # [22:14] * Quits: Justin_o (Justin_o@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP) (Quit: Justin_o)
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  434. # [22:35] * ehsan is now known as ehsan-away
  435. # [22:36] <@davidb> ok i gotta go feed a family
  436. # [22:36] <@davidb> tbsaunde: good luck tonight
  437. # [22:36] * Quits: @davidb (davidb@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Quit: davidb)
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  439. # [22:54] <drexler> capella: ping.
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  444. # [23:26] <@firebot> mozillamarcia.knous@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 772607 from UNCONFIRMED to RESOLVED.
  445. # [23:26] <@firebot> mozillamarcia.knous@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 772607 to INVALID.
  446. # [23:26] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=772607 cri, --, ---, nobody, RESO INVALID, Firefox 14
  447. # [23:39] * Quits: a-865 (fmcz@moz-A5D13CA.cable.mindspring.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [SeaMonkey 2.11/20120705094102])
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  451. # Session Close: Wed Jul 11 00:00:00 2012

The end :)