/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2012-09-05 / end
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- # Session Start: Wed Sep 05 00:00:00 2012
- # Session Ident: #accessibility
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- # [01:49] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 658299 on bug 777603.
- # [01:49] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=777603 nor, --, ---, trev.saunders, NEW, move some nsAccessibilityService methods into layout/
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- # [03:36] <@tbsaunde> surkov: I'm starting to wonder if there isn't a better way to log changes in the dom than through accessible logging
- # [03:37] <@surkov> tbsaunde: it might be but they should be in conjunction with a11y logging
- # [03:38] <@surkov> if you see content was inserted but we didn't process it then there's something wrong with document creation rather than with inserted content
- # [03:38] <@tbsaunde> surkov: I'm not sure I follow
- # [03:39] <@tbsaunde> surkov: if you log what DocAccessible::ContentRangeInserted sees and what the dom does
- # [03:39] <@surkov> yes
- # [03:39] <@surkov> logging some a11y info I guess
- # [03:39] <@tbsaunde> if the dom changes but no doc processes it then you know either the content doesn't have an accessible doc for some reason, or nobody is telling the accessible doc about the content
- # [03:40] <@surkov> true
- # [03:42] <@tbsaunde> surkov: I suppose one arguably very hacky approach is to have a fake DocAccessible for all in accessible documents
- # [03:42] <@surkov> for each press hell you mean?
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- # [03:43] <@tbsaunde> but I guess that would be a bit of code, so probably not worth it
- # [03:43] <@tbsaunde> surkov: no, just one global one
- # [03:43] <@surkov> yes it's something very hacky
- # [03:44] <@surkov> we have globals, why would we need to do the same for docacc
- # [03:44] <@tbsaunde> the reason I thought of it is so pres shells would always have a doc accessible
- # [03:44] <@tbsaunde> but as I said I agree its kind of a hack
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- # [03:46] <@tbsaunde> surkov: you have any thoughts?
- # [03:46] * shorlander is now known as shorlander-away
- # [03:47] <@tbsaunde> surkov: what would be the point of replacing a wrapper in nsAccessibilityService with another wrapper be?
- # [03:52] <@tbsaunde> surkov: I think I'm increasingly drawn to the view a11y logging should be for what a11y does so logging in DocAccessible::ContentRangeInserted() is for what a11y process
- # [03:52] <@tbsaunde> and if you want to know about everything that happens in the dom you should use something else
- # [03:53] <@tbsaunde> something to log all dom changes should certainly exist, but it doesn't seem to make sense for it to be in a11y
- # [03:53] <@tbsaunde> that way also if someone adds a new way to change the dom so a11y doesn't get notified and you watch all dom changes you still see the change
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- # [03:57] <@surkov> tbsaunde: it makes sense but it's not practical
- # [03:58] <@tbsaunde> surkov: why?
- # [03:59] <@surkov> because we don't listen DOM changes, we listen frame changes and it seems they don't have a good idea what frame change is interested for a11y and which one is one
- # [03:59] <@tbsaunde> surkov: I don't see how that's relavent?
- # [04:00] <@surkov> I guess there's a hundred places in gecko where frames are changes, we log several ones
- # [04:01] <@tbsaunde> surkov: I'd agree with that, but I still don't see why that matters here
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- # [04:01] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Resolution on bug 767755 from --- to FIXED.
- # [04:01] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 767755 from ASSIGNED to RESOLVED.
- # [04:01] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 767755 from --- to mozilla18.
- # [04:01] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=767755 nor, --, mozilla18, ewong3, RESO FIXED, Re-implement IsPrimaryForNode() using an Accessible::mFlags bit
- # [04:02] <@surkov> tbsaunde: I think we can use something to log everything because it's not interesting for us, what is interesting for us we decide ourself and thus we do the logging on our side
- # [04:02] <@surkov> we can/can't
- # [04:03] <@tbsaunde> surkov: sure, but that means
- # [04:03] <@tbsaunde> if we miss something we should think is important but haven't caught yet then you'll miss seeing notifications for that dom change
- # [04:04] <@surkov> true
- # [04:04] <@surkov> and that happens from time to time
- # [04:04] <@tbsaunde> basically I think it makes sense to log two things
- # [04:04] <@tbsaunde> 1 every dom change that happens wether or not a11y should care about it
- # [04:05] <@tbsaunde> 2 dom changes caused by frame changes that a11y processes because they are interesting for a11y
- # [04:05] <@surkov> what do you mean by dom change?
- # [04:06] <@tbsaunde> node insertion / removal
- # [04:07] <@surkov> node inserion/removal from DOM? or?
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- # [04:08] <@tbsaunde> surkov: yes from dom tree
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- # [04:09] <@surkov> tbsaunde: then dom changes can't be caused by frame changes
- # [04:09] <@surkov> it works vice versa
- # [04:09] <@tbsaunde> surkov: true, but presumably they cause frame changes
- # [04:09] <@surkov> yes
- # [04:09] <@surkov> frame changes may be caused by dom changes
- # [04:10] <@tbsaunde> surkov: so, what is your point there
- # [04:11] <@tbsaunde> obviously logigng all frame changes too would be nice, but I'm not sure if there's an easy way to do that
- # [04:11] <@tbsaunde> and I suspect in many cases dom changes will be good enough
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- # [04:12] <@surkov> on the web no
- # [04:13] <@surkov> my point is the logging on a11y side is probably the best option we can do today
- # [04:14] <@surkov> I don't really see doable alternatives
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- # [04:15] <@tbsaunde> surkov: well, I don't use the logging stuff myself much anyway so *shrug*
- # [04:16] <@surkov> I was used it much in Firefox 4 days when you need to fix a bug like "here's a web page that sometimes has missed content" :)
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- # [04:18] <@tbsaunde> surkov: then I'm not really thinking of anything better than just leaving nsAccessibilityService::ContentRange{Inserted/Removed}() as they are
- # [04:18] <@tbsaunde> :(
- # [04:18] <@surkov> I don't see a good approach either
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- # [04:19] <@tbsaunde> surkov: on the other hand I don't really like how we have ContentInserted / Removed calls scatered around layout/
- # [04:20] <@surkov> tbsaunde: we added them on case by case basis, we used layout as is without trying to change it
- # [04:21] <@tbsaunde> surkov: sure, I'm just saying I don't particularly like it :)
- # [04:21] <@surkov> tbsaunde: would it work if we make AccService::ConentInserted to take DocAccessible* instead of mPresShell?
- # [04:21] <@tbsaunde> something more uniform would be nice
- # [04:21] <@surkov> agree
- # [04:21] <@tbsaunde> surkov: I don't really see what it would help
- # [04:21] <@surkov> what is the idea of the bug
- # [04:22] <@surkov> I though to remove stupid things like pass PresShell from preshshell method and then ask press hell for what you need
- # [04:22] <@tbsaunde> surkov: I was hoping to get rid of silly indirection
- # [04:22] <@tbsaunde> but you seem to like a lot of the indirection
- # [04:23] <@surkov> I call this abstraction :)
- # [04:23] <@tbsaunde> I also wanted to make more stuff use the DocAccessible* in the pres shell instead of the hash table
- # [04:23] <@tbsaunde> surkov: and I call it obstruction ;)
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- # [04:24] <@surkov> :)
- # [04:24] <@tbsaunde> but I can acomplish getting rid of the hash table without removing the indirection, I just don't like it
- # [04:25] <@surkov> DocAccessible* in press hell is a good thing I think but it opens different possiiblities
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- # [04:26] <@tbsaunde> surkov: not sure what you think of
- # [04:26] <@surkov> it's like keep press hell as simple document acc container or make it maintain some a11y logic
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- # [04:27] <@tbsaunde> surkov: I'm not sure what you mean by that
- # [04:29] <@surkov> before you made press hell keeping a doc acc ref it was quite simple: we had AccService() that was used to keep all "collaborations" between a11y and other parts of gecko, but after that this approach might be not be the best option. anyway, it might be not very important
- # [04:36] <@tbsaunde> surkov: do you have ideas on what you think would be a better way?
- # [04:37] <@surkov> tbsaunde: no, we could pass DocAccessible instead nsIPresShell into AccService, that'd be a little bit nicer
- # [04:37] <@tbsaunde> surkov: maybe a little, but I'm not really convinced its nicer, and certainly not much nicer
- # [04:38] <@tbsaunde> any, be back in a bit
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- # [05:03] <@tbsaunde> ok, back
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- # [05:58] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 788389 filed by surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
- # [05:58] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=788389 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, fire statechange event whenever checked state is changed not depending on focused state
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- # [08:02] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 764757 from UNCONFIRMED to NEW.
- # [08:02] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=764757 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, NVDA announces incorrect number of items when display:inline-block; is used
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- # [09:37] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Assignee on bug 507555 from nobody@mozilla.org to surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
- # [09:37] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 658398 on bug 507555.
- # [09:37] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 507555 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
- # [09:37] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=507555 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, wrong accessible is created for HTML:li with float and "display: inline" style
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- # [10:41] <@firebot> faulkner.steve@gmail.com changed the Component on bug 788428 from Untriaged to Disability Access.
- # [10:41] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=788428 nor, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, ARIA alertdialog role does not fire system alert event when its visibility chnages from hidden to vi
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- # [11:56] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Assignee on bug 706849 from nobody@mozilla.org to surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
- # [11:56] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 658425 on bug 706849.
- # [11:56] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 706849 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
- # [11:56] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=706849 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, create accessible by tag name as fallback if table descendant style is used out of table context
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- # [13:13] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com granted in-testsuite on bug 761102.
- # [13:13] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 761102 from --- to mozilla18.
- # [13:13] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=761102 nor, --, mozilla18, surkov.alexander, ASSI, focus may be missed when ARIA active-descendant is changed on active composite widget
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- # [15:35] <@marcoz> Hi davidb, surkov!
- # [15:35] <@surkov> hi, marcoz
- # [15:37] <@davidb> heyo
- # [15:38] <@tbsaunde> mjorning
- # [15:39] <@marcoz> Morning tbsaunde! :)
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- # [15:55] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 788494 filed by surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
- # [15:55] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=788494 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, IAccessible::accRole shouldn't expose weak ARIA roles
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- # [16:23] <@davidb> MarcoZ: I wonder where you mention 2.1.3 guideline must be met, if we should qualify it with "if no keyboard usable alternative exists"?
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- # [16:28] <@davidb> actually let's not bother… it just adds words.
- # [16:35] <@marcoz> davidb: Basically, we should avoid the situation where no keyboard alternative exists. WebAIM gives a few examples where this is acceptable, so I didn't put any there myself.
- # [16:35] <@davidb> Yes, okay.
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- # [16:58] * @marcoz re-clones mozilla aurora.
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- # [17:27] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested review from joshmoz@gmail.com for attachment 654946 on bug 785047.
- # [17:27] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=785047 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, OOPP for Flash breaks some blind and low vision assistive technologies
- # [17:31] <@davidb> flash makes me sad
- # [17:38] <@hub> if only mozilla made the extra effort to drop flash on the server side....
- # [17:38] <@davidb> we are all mozilla
- # [17:39] <@marcoz> davidb: surkov: Me, too, and I don't think we should actually fix this bug. Turning that sandbox mode off in Flash is an ugly hack, and AFAIK, has been coming for some time. So if FS didn't get their act together, we shouldn't hack around like this in this fashion.
- # [17:39] * @davidb starts an intern interview
- # [17:39] <@marcoz> davidb: OK!
- # [17:40] <@marcoz> I mean the sandboxing has been coming for quite some time, and FS couldn't be bothered to work on their end.
- # [17:41] <@surkov> marcoz: what do we get if we don't take this patch? jaws users + old firefox or + different browser
- # [17:42] <@marcoz> surkov: These people could use NVDA instead. It works. It just works with current Flash *and* current Firefox.
- # [17:43] <@surkov> marcoz: I don't think we should say our users what softwares they should to use
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- # [17:44] <@surkov> anyway in case of AT users don't often decide what they use
- # [17:46] <@marcoz> surkov: The problem I see is what bsmedberg points out. This combination of turning off sandboxing and turning off oop Flash introduces a whole lot of instability. And we don't know for how long Adobe will actually offer this option to turn off sandboxing. They might pull it in Flash 11.5, and what then?
- # [17:47] <@marcoz> The ones who must do work here are Freedom Scientific, not us, IMO.
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- # [17:48] <@surkov> marcoz: turning on pop Flash introduces instability and performance issues. FS should figure out but allowing them to do what they did seems reasonable
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- # [17:49] <@surkov> at least I don't see a good reason why we should deny them to disable firefox oop
- # [17:51] <@marcoz> FS have had two and a half years to fix their end to work with OOP Flash. NVDA, and others, did it from the beginning. They didn't bother. They instead relied on us providing that option to reintroduce the instabilities in-process Flash entails. Two and a half years should be enough for the richest AT producing company to fix up their stuff.
- # [17:52] <@marcoz> Yes, I'm pissed. I feel like we're giving them goodies for behaving so badly towards their users.
- # [17:56] <@surkov> anyway if we take a decision that negatively affects on subset of our users then we should double think
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- # [18:00] <@surkov> if we are sure that disabling oop for jaws users gives them negative experience then the right way is to disable flash at all perhaps
- # [18:01] * @marcoz likes this idea…. :D
- # [18:06] <@davidb> it is a reasonable option
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- # [19:47] <fxa90id> uh uh
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- # [21:29] <@davidb> hub: i realized just now i should just ask you. are you working on bug 777145?
- # [21:29] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=777145 nor, --, mozilla18, hub, REOP, B2G Network Manager: support navigator.onLine / online / offline events
- # [21:29] <@davidb> it was reopened by phil but i'm not clear who is doing the remaining fix
- # [21:30] <@davidb> oh lunch time for you
- # [21:37] <@hub> davidb: I am not. They are just waiting for marionette support
- # [21:37] <@davidb> hub: check latest comment
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- # [21:41] <@hub> yeah
- # [21:42] <@hub> *sigh*
- # [21:42] <@davidb> hub: i bet if you described your patch to mdas she might have ideas
- # Session Close: Wed Sep 05 22:03:47 2012
- #
- # Session Start: Wed Sep 05 22:03:47 2012
- # Session Ident: #accessibility
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- # [22:05] * Topic is '"build the web for everyone"'
- # [22:05] * Set by davidb on Tue Aug 07 15:29:32
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- # [22:30] <@davidb> clown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qqE_WmagjY
- # [22:31] * clown looks
- # [22:33] <@davidb> clown: wasn't a monkey afterall
- # [22:34] <@davidb> (fnort at 3:47)
- # [22:35] <clown> i'm at 3:20
- # [22:38] <clown> very nice, thanks davidb.
- # [22:38] <@davidb> anytime
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- # [23:23] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo davidb davidb
- # [23:24] <@tbsaunde> 4/win 31
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- # Session Close: Thu Sep 06 00:00:00 2012
The end :)