/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2012-10-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Oct 12 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  7. # [00:34] <satdav> was good meeting with john slater their
  8. # [00:36] <icaaq> yes :)
  9. # [00:39] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, are you around?
  10. # [00:44] <satdav> eeejay, do you know if we have a tracking bug for accessibility websites
  11. # [00:44] <satdav> or ux
  12. # [00:44] <@eeejay> satdav, no
  13. # [00:46] <satdav> OK
  14. # [00:48] <satdav> going to add a doc on developers.mozilla.org
  15. # [00:48] <satdav> about accessiblity
  16. # [00:48] <satdav> was going to write one about testing for articles
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  35. # [04:11] <@surkov> tbsaunde: hello
  36. # [04:11] <@tbsaunde> surkov: hey
  37. # [04:12] <@surkov> tbsaunde: bug 741408 is next on my queue
  38. # [04:12] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=741408 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, figure out a way to deal with accessibles with no content
  39. # [04:12] <@surkov> :)
  40. # [04:13] <@tbsaunde> surkov: ok, let me see where we are
  41. # [04:14] <@surkov> sure, we need to sort of things
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  43. # [04:19] <@tbsaunde> surkov: ok, responded
  44. # [04:19] <@surkov> tbsaunde: there are two more above
  45. # [04:19] <@surkov> tbsaunde: isn't 'stub' word used commonly for these cases?
  46. # [04:20] <@tbsaunde> surkov: not sure what you mean 2 more above
  47. # [04:20] <@surkov> tbsaunde: 2 comments more
  48. # [04:20] <@tbsaunde> surkov: stub means something slightly different to me I think
  49. # [04:20] <@surkov> you might want to answer them
  50. # [04:20] <@tbsaunde> ok
  51. # [04:22] <@surkov> tbsaunde: stub usage: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/src/nsStubDocumentObserver.h#29
  52. # [04:22] <@surkov> it's different
  53. # [04:22] <@surkov> but not much
  54. # [04:26] <@tbsaunde> surkov: so, I tend to say a stub is a partialy implemented thing that might need to be extended to work fully, dummy means more not real fake which seems more applicable here since these accessibles are sort of fakes
  55. # [04:26] <@surkov> tbsaunde: ok
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  57. # [04:35] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 739130 from --- to mozilla19.
  58. # [04:35] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=739130 nor, --, mozilla19, michaljev, NEW, make GetDocumentNode() inline on nsDocAccessible
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  65. # [05:00] <@tbsaunde> surkov: want anything else? I'm thinking about grabbing dinner, might be back after that
  66. # [05:00] <@surkov> tbsaunde: not now, thank you :)
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  70. # [05:49] <@surkov> tbsaunde: ping
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  73. # [06:06] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com cancelled review?(trev.saunders@gmail .com) for attachment 669559 on bug 741408.
  74. # [06:06] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 670678 on bug 741408.
  75. # [06:06] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=741408 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, figure out a way to deal with accessibles with no content
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  103. # [10:52] <icaaq> eeejay: good article on hacks!
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  115. # [13:23] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Resolution on bug 739130 from --- to FIXED.
  116. # [13:23] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Status on bug 739130 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  117. # [13:23] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=739130 nor, --, mozilla19, michaljev, NEW, make GetDocumentNode() inline on nsDocAccessible
  118. # [13:30] <@tbsaunde> surkov: hi
  119. # [13:49] <@surkov> hi, tbsaunde
  120. # [13:49] <@tbsaunde> surkov: you were looking for me last night?
  121. # [13:50] <@surkov> tbsaunde: for bug 741408 I guess
  122. # [13:50] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=741408 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, figure out a way to deal with accessibles with no content
  123. # [13:50] <@surkov> tbsaunde: I'm not sure about making app acc inherited from dummy acc
  124. # [13:51] <@tbsaunde> surkov: ok, so what does Dummy implement that App needs to override?
  125. # [13:52] <@tbsaunde> I guess, I could be convinced if the really is a number of things, but that really suprises me
  126. # [13:58] <@surkov> tbsaunde: it seems dummy accessible don't need any since method, app accessible needs, for example, it needs Name(), children managing methods, it has state
  127. # [14:00] <@tbsaunde> surkov: not sure I understand the first part of that
  128. # [14:01] <@tbsaunde> and I'm pretty use State() on App is completely useless
  129. # [14:01] <@tbsaunde> s/use/sure/
  130. # [14:01] <@surkov> tbsaunde: I meant those dummy accessibles (like gtk window acc) don't need any real Accessible method
  131. # [14:02] <@tbsaunde> surkov: true
  132. # [14:02] <@surkov> tbsaunde: if AT keeps app acc after firefox was closed then state() reprots correct things
  133. # [14:02] <@tbsaunde> but it still overrides a bunch
  134. # [14:02] <@surkov> tbsaunde: like what?
  135. # [14:03] <@tbsaunde> surkov: wait how does that make any sense, if firefox is closed that object nolonger exists
  136. # [14:04] <@surkov> hm, that should be true, I wonder what happens with object that AT keep
  137. # [14:04] <@tbsaunde> surkov: Dummy overrides NativelyUnavailable, and a few other state things don't remember the details, you probably have the patch closer at hand than I
  138. # [14:04] <@surkov> tbsaunde: Dummy should override more
  139. # [14:04] <@surkov> tbsaunde: I'd suggest to finish that dummy accessible and then decide if we want app acc be a dummy one
  140. # [14:05] <@tbsaunde> surkov: also, nobody will ever mark that object with the defunct bit in mFlags, so I don't see how it would report correct things if it magically could
  141. # [14:05] <@surkov> it could do that previously I guess, when IsDefunct was virtual :)
  142. # [14:06] <@surkov> tbsaunde: anyway are you ok to not change app accessible for now? I'm not really certain it should be right
  143. # [14:06] <@tbsaunde> I thought then it didn't override IsDefunct() so it was always defunct
  144. # [14:06] <@tbsaunde> I guess so, though still not really happy with it
  145. # [14:07] <@surkov> tbsaunde: I know the secret: nobody use that application accessible :)
  146. # [14:07] <@tbsaunde> we should probably get that patch in soon to sort out whatever breaks
  147. # [14:07] <@surkov> tbsaunde: yeah, but after we just don't change things :)
  148. # [14:07] <@surkov> yep and I would continue to build patches over it: I need to make document accessible living without mContent
  149. # [14:08] <@tbsaunde> not sure what you mean after we just don't change things
  150. # [14:11] <@tbsaunde> surkov: ?
  151. # [14:11] <@surkov> tbsaunde: I meant app accessible wasn't inherited from dummy before the patch, so you shouldn't feel reallly bad that we don't make it a dummy one in this patch
  152. # [14:18] <@tbsaunde> true
  153. # [14:21] <@tbsaunde> surkov: if that's it I'm going to shower and -> office
  154. # [14:21] <@surkov> tbsaunde: yep
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  172. # [15:43] <@davidb> heyo
  173. # [15:44] <@marcoz> Hi davidb!
  174. # [15:44] <@davidb> hey hey
  175. # [15:58] <@davidb> marcoz: PM re: hardware
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  178. # [16:10] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 800905 filed by marco.zehe@googlemail.com.
  179. # [16:10] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=800905 maj, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] Web content in every tab but the first is no longer accessible
  180. # [16:11] <@marcoz> Sorry, Eitan, will have to keep you away from b2g yet once again.
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  183. # [16:42] <@davidb> marcoz: sometimes i think you are canadian
  184. # [16:43] <fxa90id> HaHAHaHA
  185. # [16:43] <fxa90id> why its funny ?
  186. # [16:43] <@davidb> ?
  187. # [16:43] <fxa90id> sometimes i think you are canadian
  188. # [16:43] <fxa90id> its funny in your country ?
  189. # [16:44] <@davidb> not really
  190. # [16:44] <fxa90id> like canadian are not so smart or something
  191. # [16:44] <fxa90id> :<
  192. # [16:44] <fxa90id> oh
  193. # [16:44] <fxa90id> then
  194. # [16:44] <@marcoz> davidb: Oops, why do you think that?
  195. # [16:44] <fxa90id> greatings marcoz :)
  196. # [16:44] <@davidb> marcoz: because you said sorry for doing your job :)
  197. # [16:44] <fxa90id> oooo
  198. # [16:45] <fxa90id> canadian sorry for doing their job ?
  199. # [16:45] <@davidb> I'll be interested to see what web properties report on https://hacks.mozilla.org/2012/10/accessibility-features-in-firefox-on-android/
  200. # [16:46] <fxa90id> this site looks like soviet union
  201. # [16:46] <fxa90id> :-)
  202. # [16:46] <@davidb> yeah we've had mixed feedback about that red star
  203. # [16:46] <fxa90id> ok Im shuting up ;p
  204. # [16:46] <fxa90id> I didnt pass exam for motorbike :(
  205. # [16:46] <fxa90id> and Im little unpolite
  206. # [16:47] <fxa90id> forgive me :(
  207. # [16:47] <@davidb> failing that test extends your life
  208. # [16:47] <fxa90id> ;p
  209. # [16:47] <fxa90id> I dont even have cash for motorbike :D
  210. # [16:48] <fxa90id> Ive truck license too ;p
  211. # [16:48] <fxa90id> but never sit in truck after passing exam :D
  212. # [16:48] * @davidb duct tapes fxa90id's mouth
  213. # [16:48] <@davidb> :)
  214. # [16:48] <fxa90id> ok ok Im getting quite
  215. # [16:48] <fxa90id> helping guys on #testday ;p
  216. # [16:48] <@davidb> all i heard just now was "mmmmmurmmmurm"
  217. # [16:49] <fxa90id> its because Im black ?
  218. # [16:53] * fxa90id is now known as fxa|shutdown
  219. # [17:05] <@marcoz> davidb: Well, I guess I know how difficult it can be to be pulled from one intense project to return to something earlier, having to reset the mind to focus on that, etc.
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  221. # [17:24] <@davidb> marcoz: quite
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  229. # [18:27] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
  230. # [18:36] <@firebot> radumstoica@gmail.com changed the Resolution on bug 800062 from --- to INVALID.
  231. # [18:36] <@firebot> radumstoica@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 800062 from UNCONFIRMED to RESOLVED.
  232. # [18:37] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=800062 enh, --, ---, nobody, RESO INVALID, No mnemonics for Bookmarks and History menu items.
  233. # [18:47] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  234. # [18:47] <@marcoz> davidb: Just retweeted a nice praise-tweet from a Dutch Android user.
  235. # [18:55] <@marcoz> Off. Have a good weekend everyone!
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  252. # [19:47] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com granted review for attachment 664459 on bug 794041.
  253. # [19:47] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=794041 nor, --, ---, ttaubert, ASSI, nsAccDocManager shouldn't create a RootAccessible for the hiddenWindow
  254. # [19:48] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com granted review for attachment 664460 on bug 794041.
  255. # [19:54] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com granted review for attachment 670318 on bug 637578.
  256. # [19:54] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=637578 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, Expose how accessible name was determined
  257. # [19:55] <@davidb> that was easier than i thought
  258. # [19:56] <@tbsaunde> davidb: yeah, but I still not at all convinced we want to do it
  259. # [19:57] <@tbsaunde> I probably won't r- it, but not really sure I'd r+ either
  260. # [19:57] <@davidb> tbsaunde: are you worried about perf?
  261. # [19:58] <@tbsaunde> mostly 1 another special case
  262. # [19:58] <@tbsaunde> and 2 not really sure what happens when you open the new tab page
  263. # [19:59] <@tbsaunde> basically I don't see a reason we *should* do it
  264. # [20:01] <@davidb> tbsaunde: in general i like the idea of delaying processing for stuff that might never be presented
  265. # [20:01] <@tbsaunde> I'd argue it sort of is presented
  266. # [20:02] <@tbsaunde> in that we create pres shell etc for it
  267. # [20:02] <@davidb> existence in memory is not really presentation
  268. # [20:02] * @eeejay feels like there are things to be said for both approaches
  269. # [20:02] <@davidb> is it painted?
  270. # [20:02] <@davidb> eeejay: say them
  271. # [20:02] <@tbsaunde> no, are background tabs?
  272. # [20:03] <@eeejay> j/k, i have no idea what you guys are talking about :)
  273. # [20:03] <@davidb> lol
  274. # [20:03] <@davidb> tbsaunde: the reason background tabs are not painted is different
  275. # [20:03] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I'd say not really
  276. # [20:03] <@davidb> there are not painted due to occlusion essentially
  277. # [20:03] * Quits: @hub (hub@2B660954.BAADDBDB.C3DDD137.IP) (Ping timeout)
  278. # [20:03] <@davidb> it is an optimization
  279. # [20:04] <@tbsaunde> and this is just not painted because we haven't brought it to the forground yet
  280. # [20:04] <@tbsaunde> for what?
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  283. # [20:04] <@davidb> tbsaunde: painting
  284. # [20:04] <@tbsaunde> and why is it happening in a11y?
  285. # [20:04] <@davidb> umm we lost each other
  286. # [20:04] <@davidb> i was talking about a painting optimization
  287. # [20:05] <@tbsaunde> yes :p
  288. # [20:05] <@davidb> ok, starting over… what is the purpose of this special hidden window?
  289. # [20:05] <@tbsaunde> so, why does it make sense to have pres shell for this document, but not doc accessible?
  290. # [20:06] <@davidb> no idea why there is a pres shell
  291. # [20:06] <@davidb> but i need to get caught up on what this thing is again
  292. # [20:06] <@tbsaunde> ???
  293. # [20:07] <@davidb> tbsaunde: what is nsIXULWindow.isHiddenWindow used for?
  294. # [20:07] <@tbsaunde> presumably telling if the window you have is the hidden window?
  295. # [20:07] <@davidb> and what are examples of windows with this attribute?
  296. # [20:08] <@tbsaunde> there's only one the hidden window I assume
  297. # [20:08] * @tbsaunde doesn't know much about the hidden window
  298. # [20:08] <@davidb> doh
  299. # [20:08] <@tbsaunde> other than its a thing we put some random crap in for various random purposes
  300. # [20:08] <@davidb> hmmm i'd wander over and ask Enn if he was here
  301. # [20:09] <@davidb> random crap might be something to ignore
  302. # [20:09] <@davidb> and background tabs don't seem to be the same kind of thing
  303. # [20:10] <@tbsaunde> I claim they are, but anyway why don't you answer the question of why it makes sense to create pres shell but not doc accessible
  304. # [20:10] * @davidb checks to see who implemented this stuff
  305. # [20:10] <@davidb> i don't have an answer yet
  306. # [20:12] <@davidb> tbsaunde: an example of leaving hidden windows alone: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/xpfe/appshell/src/nsXULWindow.cpp#1002
  307. # [20:16] * Quits: @hub (hub@2B660954.BAADDBDB.C3DDD137.IP) (Ping timeout)
  308. # [20:17] <@tbsaunde> davidb: that doesn't really answer either of my questions
  309. # [20:17] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com requested needinfo from enndeakin@gmail.c om on bug 794041.
  310. # [20:18] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=794041 nor, --, ---, ttaubert, ASSI, nsAccDocManager shouldn't create a RootAccessible for the hiddenWindow
  311. # [20:18] <@davidb> tbsaunde: does it intrigue you at least?
  312. # [20:19] <@davidb> because I'd settle for intrigue
  313. # [20:19] <@davidb> oh maybe there is a rule of thumb we haven't assimilated yet
  314. # [20:20] <@tbsaunde> not really sure what you mean
  315. # [20:20] <@davidb> so the rule of thumb set by Aaron way back was that we would expose things as closely to as they are exposed visually.
  316. # [20:20] <@davidb> which has in some cases misled some implementation (see visibility)
  317. # [20:21] <@davidb> I think we need to understand what these hidden windows are for, and correct the semantics of them (e.g. visibility) before arguing too much more.
  318. # [20:22] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I'm not sure I'm a fan of that rule, but not sure I have a better one I follow other than "whatever seems sane"
  319. # [20:23] <@davidb> The rationale I often heard was that it allows sighted and non-sighted people to collaborate better.
  320. # [20:23] <@davidb> there is an etc.
  321. # [20:29] <@tbsaunde> davidb: not sure what you mean there is an etc
  322. # [20:29] <@davidb> == there are more supportive arguments I don't want to type.
  323. # [20:30] <@tbsaunde> I see
  324. # [20:30] <@davidb> time to caffeinate
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  326. # [20:31] <@davidb> maybe i'll add that what is drawn to the screen involves a subterranean world of code paths that are heavily travelled… if we start doing things with other stuff there can be risk.
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  328. # [20:34] <@firebot> marioalv.mozilla@gmail.com requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 670881 on bug 797637.
  329. # [20:34] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797637 nor, --, ---, marioalv.mozilla, NEW, test_text_alg.html shouldn't print out gigantic strings of 'xxxxx's to the log
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  331. # [20:34] <@tbsaunde> davidb: so, the part I really object to is that doc accessible and pres shell are sort of same thing at some level of abstraction
  332. # [20:35] <@tbsaunde> but we want to treat them differently here and nobody wants to explain why that makes sense
  333. # [20:37] <@davidb> i haven't internalized that observation about pres shell and doc accessible
  334. # [20:37] <@davidb> so i'm probably the wrong person to explain
  335. # [20:38] <@tbsaunde> what's complicated about it?
  336. # [20:39] <@davidb> tbsaunde: you are saying they are sort of the same thing, and i guess we need to know what that means.
  337. # [20:39] <@tbsaunde> know what means?
  338. # [20:39] <@tbsaunde> err, know what what means?
  339. # [20:40] <@davidb> if i told you i thought apples and teabags are sort of the same and asked you why we aren't dipping apples in hot water and to explain it, it would be tricky.
  340. # [20:40] <@davidb> i need to understand the sort of comparison
  341. # [20:41] <@tbsaunde> davidb: so you would agree doc accessible and pres shell serve sort of same purpose?
  342. # [20:41] <@davidb> dunno
  343. # [20:41] <@tbsaunde> err, wouldn't sorry I can't type
  344. # [20:42] <@davidb> tbsaunde: what is the purpose of a pres shell?
  345. # [20:43] <@davidb> Once you've got me on board, understanding the relationship better, then we have the problem of understanding why a hiddenWindow has one.
  346. # [20:43] <@davidb> Which would bring us back to understanding if that is by design, or whatevs.
  347. # [20:43] <@davidb> So in any event I want to understand what the hiddenWindow is for.
  348. # [20:46] * Quits: Stevef (chatzilla@moz-CD0F47B5.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout)
  349. # [20:47] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I seem to remember khuey muttering about it being uses not use
  350. # [20:48] <@davidb> you mean useless?
  351. # [20:48] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I'd tend to say pres shell is for organizing frames and presentation type stuff for document
  352. # [20:48] <@tbsaunde> so css application although that's sort of style context I think
  353. # [20:48] <@davidb> ok so do we know why hidden window has one?
  354. # [20:49] <@tbsaunde> davidb: no, as in it several different uses that are completely unrelated
  355. # [20:49] <@davidb> tbsaunde: I PM'ed you btw
  356. # [20:49] <@davidb> tbsaunde: what is 'it' in your last comment?
  357. # [20:53] <@tbsaunde> the hidden window
  358. # [20:53] <@davidb> joy
  359. # [20:55] <@tbsaunde> yeah, my impression is its pretty hacky
  360. # [20:57] <fxa|shutdown> :-)
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  363. # [21:19] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com cancelled review+ for attachment 664459 on bug 794041.
  364. # [21:19] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=794041 nor, --, ---, ttaubert, ASSI, nsAccDocManager shouldn't create a RootAccessible for the hiddenWindow
  365. # [21:20] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com cancelled review+ for attachment 664460 on bug 794041.
  366. # [21:28] <@davidb> trying to go fast always slows me down
  367. # [21:28] * habber is now known as habber-away
  368. # [21:29] <@tbsaunde> davidb: yeah, its ahrd to make yourself take time
  369. # [21:29] <@davidb> especially on friday when i'm looking at my todo list
  370. # [21:29] <@tbsaunde> I often fail at it
  371. # [21:32] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I read in some book about world war 2 stuff somebody said something like there's always time to fuck it up, you need to make time to not
  372. # [21:32] <@davidb> heh
  373. # [21:33] <@davidb> also from the military: "slow is smooth, smooth is fast"
  374. # [21:34] * khuey is now known as khuey|food
  375. # [21:38] <@davidb> oh sure, now I notice khuey|food
  376. # [21:38] <@tbsaunde> davidb: fwiw I think I saw ttaubert blogging about being sacrificed to the wilds of gaia land
  377. # [21:39] <@tbsaunde> so he may be less interested in fixing that stuff for now
  378. # [21:39] <@davidb> oh that's quite possible
  379. # [21:40] <@davidb> that's unfortunate because tab preload is a snappy item
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  386. # [22:26] <@davidb> ok time to invert my matrix
  387. # [22:26] * Quits: @davidb (davidb@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Quit: davidb)
  388. # [22:29] * khuey|food is now known as khuey
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  391. # [23:35] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com granted review for attachment 670678 on bug 741408.
  392. # [23:35] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=741408 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, figure out a way to deal with accessibles with no content
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  397. # Session Close: Sat Oct 13 00:00:00 2012

The end :)