/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2012-10-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Oct 16 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  24. # [06:29] <@tbsaunde> surkov: hey
  25. # [06:29] <@surkov> tbsaunde: hey
  26. # [06:31] <@tbsaunde> surkov: so, do we actually create an accessible for value anon content?
  27. # [06:31] <@tbsaunde> that seems kind of crazy
  28. # [06:32] <@surkov> tbsaunde: yes/maybe
  29. # [06:33] <@tbsaunde> surkov: ok
  30. # [06:33] <@tbsaunde> surkov: in what way does it make sense?
  31. # [06:34] <@surkov> tbsaunde: mm, maybe we can expose text interface
  32. # [06:34] <@tbsaunde> surkov: yeah, that's what I was thinking :)
  33. # [06:34] <@surkov> perhaps nobody needs it
  34. # [06:34] <@surkov> if you mean buttons of course
  35. # [06:35] <@surkov> if you mean input@type="text" then we use native text there for text interface
  36. # [06:35] <@tbsaunde> surkov: actually, we already do that formost <input> I think since iirc those HTMLFormAccessible classes are all HyperTextAccessibles
  37. # [06:35] <@surkov> yes
  38. # [06:36] <@tbsaunde> it seems fairly reasonable to expose text interface on button
  39. # [06:36] <@tbsaunde> atleast not nearly as crazy as the anon content having its own accessible
  40. # [06:36] <@tbsaunde> on the other hand this doesn't sound easy to change
  41. # [06:42] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com granted review for attachment 670318 on bug 637578.
  42. # [06:42] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=637578 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, Expose how accessible name was determined
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  44. # [06:43] <@surkov> tbsaunde: it shouldn't be hard but depends on approach
  45. # [06:43] <@tbsaunde> surkov: so, are you back on accessible creation stuff?
  46. # [06:44] <@surkov> tbsaunde: what do you mean exactly?
  47. # [06:45] <@tbsaunde> surkov: you wanted 542039 landed for some work you are doing no?
  48. # [06:48] <@surkov> tbsaunde: ah, we have a special processing for HTML tables when we create an accessible, we should have similar things for HTML lists. We need to introduce a concept of context or redesign of tree creation so the parent says what is allowed and what is not
  49. # [06:48] <@surkov> I'm still not sure what the best way to proceed it
  50. # [06:48] <@tbsaunde> surkov: yeah, makes sense
  51. # [06:49] <@tbsaunde> I wonder if the sensible way is to create tree depth first
  52. # [06:49] <@surkov> tbsaunde: details?
  53. # [06:49] <@tbsaunde> so we have implicit context on the stack
  54. # [06:51] <@tbsaunde> surkov: once you add one accessible child instead of immediately looking for more you look for kids of the child you just added
  55. # [06:51] <@tbsaunde> then if you don't find any kids it should have you proceed to look to see about its siblings
  56. # [06:52] <@tbsaunde> basically current tree creation is breadthfirst search on a tree that can be defined with nsIContent::GetChildren() right?
  57. # [06:52] <@surkov> tbsaunde: maybe that's the same what I thought. So we create GetAccessibleType and then we override CacheChildren (or similar) and check accessible type
  58. # [06:52] <@surkov> if it suites then create an accessible
  59. # [06:53] <@tbsaunde> I'm not sure I follow
  60. # [06:53] <@surkov> tbsaunde: I want to go away from nsIContent::GetChildren version and move to frame tree traversal
  61. # [06:53] <@tbsaunde> I'd been considering reworking nsAccTreeWalker
  62. # [06:54] <@surkov> maybe you won't be restricted with it only :)
  63. # [06:54] <@tbsaunde> surkov: ok, that might be reasonable I'm not really sure
  64. # [06:54] <@surkov> ok, we need a bug then (I don't recall I filed one for this issue)
  65. # [06:54] <@tbsaunde> I'm not sure what you mean restricted with it only
  66. # [06:55] <@surkov> I mean you might be needed to change more than just nsAccTreeWalker
  67. # [06:55] <@tbsaunde> true
  68. # [06:55] <@tbsaunde> I didn't have any concrete plans, or plans to really work on it
  69. # [06:57] <@tbsaunde> surkov: you?
  70. # [06:57] <@surkov> tbsaunde: all I know we need to fix it asap. I need to file a bug and put there initial thoughts so we can discuss it (the same time I don't mind if you do this :) )
  71. # [06:58] <@surkov> tbsaunde: it's needed for ARIA conformance
  72. # [06:59] <@tbsaunde> surkov: ok
  73. # [07:00] <@tbsaunde> surkov: which bit of aria conformance a sane part I hope
  74. # [07:00] <@surkov> it is :)
  75. # [07:00] <@surkov> at least it seems a reaonsable one
  76. # [07:01] <@tbsaunde> ok, good, I'd rather not support more things as mad as the reverse idrefs stuff
  77. # [07:01] <@tbsaunde> :)
  78. # [07:02] <@surkov> :)
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  81. # [07:33] <@tbsaunde> surkov: how would you feel about the internal api for getting a single attribute being a method that takes an atom, and an object that implements operator= for some types of arguments we want to return as the type of the attribute
  82. # [07:34] <@tbsaunde> its sort of like a lambda, but hand rolled using virtual operators
  83. # [07:42] <@surkov> tbsaunde: attributes as atom is reasonable I agree, I'm not sure about copying thing
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  90. # [10:28] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Resolution on bug 761901 from --- to FIXED.
  91. # [10:28] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Status on bug 761901 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  92. # [10:28] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Target Milestone on bug 761901 from --- to mozilla19.
  93. # [10:28] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=761901 nor, --, mozilla19, jkitch.bug, RESO FIXED, HTML5 progress accessible should fire value change event
  94. # [10:31] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Resolution on bug 542039 from --- to FIXED.
  95. # [10:31] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Status on bug 542039 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  96. # [10:31] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Target Milestone on bug 542039 from --- to mozilla19.
  97. # [10:31] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=542039 nor, --, mozilla19, trev.saunders, RESO FIXED, nsIFrame should return accessible type
  98. # [10:32] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Resolution on bug 801808 from --- to FIXED.
  99. # [10:32] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Status on bug 801808 from ASSIGNED to RESOLVED.
  100. # [10:32] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Target Milestone on bug 801808 from --- to mozilla19.
  101. # [10:32] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=801808 nor, --, mozilla19, dholbert, RESO FIXED, DocAccessible should probably assume & assert that it has a non-null pres shell
  102. # [10:32] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Resolution on bug 801659 from --- to FIXED.
  103. # [10:32] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Status on bug 801659 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  104. # [10:32] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Target Milestone on bug 801659 from --- to mozilla19.
  105. # [10:32] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=801659 nor, --, mozilla19, trev.saunders, RESO FIXED, clean up caching of DocAccessible on pres shells, and add fast path to nsAccDocManager::GetDocAccess
  106. # [10:36] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Resolution on bug 801459 from --- to FIXED.
  107. # [10:36] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Status on bug 801459 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  108. # [10:36] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Target Milestone on bug 801459 from --- to mozilla19.
  109. # [10:36] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=801459 nor, --, mozilla19, trev.saunders, RESO FIXED, remove unused nsCoreUtils function
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  132. # [15:29] <@davidb> heyo!
  133. # [15:29] <@davidb> hi MarcoZ
  134. # [15:38] <@firebot> enndeakin@gmail.com cancelled needinfo?(enndeakin@gmail.c om) on bug 794041.
  135. # [15:39] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=794041 nor, --, ---, ttaubert, ASSI, nsAccDocManager shouldn't create a RootAccessible for the hiddenWindow
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  138. # [16:01] <@davidb> tbsaunde: do you care about the 80 char rule for tests?
  139. # [16:01] <@davidb> 80 col
  140. # [16:08] <@tbsaunde> davidb: me personally I don't care much one way or the other about the rule in general
  141. # [16:08] <@davidb> ok
  142. # [16:08] <@tbsaunde> under 100 or 120 is fine by me
  143. # [16:08] <@tbsaunde> but surkov might care
  144. # [16:08] <@davidb> right
  145. # [16:08] <@tbsaunde> davidb: what are you working on?
  146. # [16:09] <@davidb> tbsaunde: i'm just looking at SpecialPowers, and I've done some experimental find and replace
  147. # [16:09] <@tbsaunde> davidb: find and replace in what?
  148. # [16:09] <@davidb> tbsaunde: what do you know about SpecialPowers? I changed all our Components.interfaces to SpecialPowers.Ci
  149. # [16:09] <@davidb> tests
  150. # [16:09] <@davidb> are you in the office?
  151. # [16:10] <@marcoz> Hi davidb, tbsaunde!
  152. # [16:11] <@davidb> hi hi
  153. # [16:11] <@davidb> tbsaunde: but I want to understand if this is a good change (other than reducing a few chars)
  154. # [16:12] <icaaq> If you get a error when submitting a form, is it a good idea to enter that error message in the title then?
  155. # [16:12] * icaaq wonders if I have asked this before
  156. # [16:12] <icaaq> the title element
  157. # [16:12] <@davidb> icaaq: i'm lost
  158. # [16:12] <@davidb> oh
  159. # [16:13] <@davidb> dunno
  160. # [16:14] <@tbsaunde> davidb: yes
  161. # [16:15] <@davidb> icaaq: good thing is we expose invalid for form elements
  162. # [16:15] <@marcoz> icaaq: I have no opinion on that, and I don't know if the specs say anything about it. There could be more than one error, so you might have a hard time deciding what to put in that title element.
  163. # [16:15] <@davidb> where appropriate
  164. # [16:15] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I suspect trying to make m-a11y run with special powers is going to be a trail of tears
  165. # [16:15] <@davidb> tbsaunde: it worked.
  166. # [16:15] <@tbsaunde> I bet running it all as chrome is a better approach
  167. # [16:15] <icaaq> me neither ;) but it one of the first elements that gets read, and I cant se how it can hurt sighted people
  168. # [16:15] <@davidb> tbsaunde: the reason I dug into it is because I want to use them for accessfu tests.
  169. # [16:16] <@tbsaunde> davidb: why?
  170. # [16:16] * @davidb tries to remember yesterday
  171. # [16:16] <@davidb> oh
  172. # [16:16] <@davidb> tbsaunde: I want to get chrome events and it looked like the simplest interface
  173. # [16:17] <@davidb> I need to find the people behind it and ask them what it is intended for.
  174. # [16:17] <icaaq> marcoz: yes, If more than one error the could be a more generall notification that there was an error and the user can look it up.
  175. # [16:17] <@davidb> icaaq: I'd guess it does matter to obsolete AT
  176. # [16:17] <@tbsaunde> aiui for wherever you would have used enablePrivlidge()
  177. # [16:18] * @davidb nods
  178. # [16:18] <@davidb> but, people have been growing the API
  179. # [16:18] <icaaq> davidb: obsolete AT?
  180. # [16:18] <@tbsaunde> I don't know much about it
  181. # [16:18] <@davidb> ok
  182. # [16:19] <@tbsaunde> my guess not knowing much about it though is that we'll have specialPowers.blah all over and it'll be a bit of a mess
  183. # [16:19] <@davidb> icaaq: like screen readers that don't pick up all the new exposed info (html5 attributes etc)
  184. # [16:20] <@tbsaunde> my guess as to why people have added to the api is that they wanted to do various things that require running some chrome code and adding an api is easier / nicer than passing a function to special powers to run
  185. # [16:20] <@davidb> tbsaunde: I'm not seeing that currently.
  186. # [16:20] <@davidb> it is a good guess.
  187. # [16:20] <icaaq> davidb: yes, or if only server validation is made
  188. # [16:20] <@davidb> ok
  189. # [16:21] <@tbsaunde> davidb: not seeing what specialPowers.blah?
  190. # [16:21] <@davidb> tbsaunde: right, only what I did a batch replace is required.
  191. # [16:22] <@tbsaunde> davidb: sure, but the tests aren't exactly static, so we'll have to keep dealing with it
  192. # [16:22] <@davidb> tbsaunde: this sound more clear to you, than it is to me.
  193. # [16:22] <icaaq> Like on http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/, if you only check the "I’m okay with you handling this info as you explain in your http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy-policy" checkbox but do not enter a email adress you end up on https://donate.mozilla.org/page/s/sign-up-for-mozilla with a well hidden error message if you use a screenreader
  194. # [16:23] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I mean we change tests all the time, so we'll be writting specialPowers.blah() all the time won't we?
  195. # [16:24] <@davidb> icaaq: I just tried and i got a popup
  196. # [16:24] <@davidb> tbsaunde: oh you mean if i kill our privs. yeah.
  197. # [16:25] <@davidb> i was just using the API as convenience
  198. # [16:25] <@tbsaunde> I'm nto really clear on why you need special powers for chrome only events, aiui basically all the js in m-a11y runs with enablePriviladge, so I'd think you could just register for them
  199. # [16:25] <@davidb> yes that's correct. i just happen to like the SpecialPowers API
  200. # [16:25] <@tbsaunde> that seems weird
  201. # [16:25] * @davidb shrugs
  202. # [16:25] <@tbsaunde> (just using the api)
  203. # [16:25] <@davidb> that's why I asked you :)
  204. # [16:26] <@davidb> i guess it would confuse readers
  205. # [16:26] <@tbsaunde> can't you just do blah.AddEventListener() or something?
  206. # [16:26] <icaaq> davidb: on the checkbox, yes. check that one but leave the email field empty
  207. # [16:26] <@davidb> icaaq: i see. wonder why they don't just do the popup in the empty case as well?
  208. # [16:27] <icaaq> davidb: yes, should be an easy fix...
  209. # [16:28] <@davidb> yep
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  211. # [16:29] <@davidb> tbsaunde: we do. I'm not much good to discuss it until I've investigated more which I may or may not do soon.
  212. # [16:30] * @davidb prairie dogs and sees tbsaunde is in the office
  213. # [16:30] <@tbsaunde> davidb: heh
  214. # [16:30] <@tbsaunde> I said that a few minutes ago :P
  215. # [16:31] <@davidb> ah i missed it in the flux
  216. # [16:31] <@davidb> fun fact: this isn't my only IRC conversation
  217. # [16:31] * @davidb goes for a second cup
  218. # [16:31] <@tbsaunde> I saw :)
  219. # [16:32] <@tbsaunde> but that won't prevent me from giving you trouble :)
  220. # [16:33] <@davidb> oh i was talking about a PM channel
  221. # [16:34] <@davidb> plus one google chat… heh
  222. # [16:34] <@davidb> that's ok though!
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  225. # [16:41] <@davidb> tbsaunde: example of simple syntax is SpecialPowers.getIntPref("dom.max_script_run_time");
  226. # [16:41] <@davidb> no need for Components.classes["@mozilla.org/preferences-service;1"]
  227. # [16:42] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
  228. # [16:42] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I thought there was servicesjs to get things like the prefs service
  229. # [16:42] <@davidb> mebbe
  230. # [16:43] <@tbsaunde> err, services.js or something like that, maybe services.jsm?
  231. # [16:43] <@davidb> but special powers is what is documented in our mochitests wiki
  232. # [16:43] <@davidb> tbsaunde: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mochitest
  233. # [16:43] <@tbsaunde> davidb: because most of our mochitests don't run as chrome
  234. # [16:43] <@davidb> true
  235. # [16:44] <@tbsaunde> davidb: m-a11y is its own sad little world
  236. # [16:44] <@tbsaunde> I guess that's not quiet truee I hope its fairly similar to m-chrome / m-browser-chrome
  237. # [16:44] <@davidb> tbsaunde: then there is bug 676274
  238. # [16:44] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=676274 nor, --, mozilla10, jmaher, RESO FIXED, refactor specialpowers so we can use the api in mochitest-chrome without specialpowers
  239. # [16:45] <@davidb> ChromePowers!
  240. # [16:46] <@davidb> that would clean up the code a bit
  241. # [16:46] <@davidb> mebbe
  242. # [16:48] * @davidb reads
  243. # [16:49] <@tbsaunde> davidb: huh, I really don't know
  244. # [16:49] <@davidb> hg qdiff |less
  245. # [16:50] <@davidb> tbsaunde: yeah murky for me as well
  246. # [16:59] <@marcoz> davidb: tbsaunde: Just had a desperate call for help on my German blog. Somebody accidentally turned on TalkBack on his NEXUS 7 and was totally lost as to how to turn it off again. Awwwwwwww poor boy! :)
  247. # [16:59] <@davidb> haha
  248. # [17:03] <@davidb> MarcoZ: who was it that helped set up our test harness?
  249. # [17:03] <@davidb> joel?
  250. # [17:03] <@marcoz> davidb: Robcee.
  251. # [17:03] <@davidb> ah
  252. # [17:03] <@marcoz> davidb: Back in early 2008.
  253. # [17:10] <@davidb> MarcoZ: does our crash test get run?
  254. # [17:11] <@marcoz> AFAIK, nope. It was disabled right after landing because something was wrong with it. I pinged surkov about this once or twice, but it then got forgotten.
  255. # [17:11] <@marcoz> davidb: ^
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  261. # [17:25] <@davidb> ty
  262. # [17:26] <@davidb> MarcoZ: PMed ya
  263. # [17:28] <@tbsaunde> davidb: we should probably just rewrite it to be a m-a11y test, and then rm that directory and accessible/tests/mochitest -> accessible/test
  264. # [17:30] <@davidb> tbsaunde: i'm not sure what you mean. what is 'it'
  265. # [17:32] <@tbsaunde> davidb: the crash test
  266. # [17:32] <@tbsaunde> if it contains anything useful
  267. # [17:32] <@davidb> i see
  268. # [17:32] <@davidb> yeah i'd like to remove it
  269. # [17:32] <@marcoz> davidb: I believe tbsaunde is referring to the whole test suite. I was asked more than once in the past if we couldn't rewrite it as a different test harness suite. I just don't recall which. I'm getting confused with the many ones we have.
  270. # [17:32] <@marcoz> Oh you just meant the crash test...
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  272. # [17:50] <@davidb> yeah
  273. # [17:54] <@davidb> MarcoZ: I wonder if we should formally make our meeting every two weeks.
  274. # [17:55] <@davidb> i realize there is increased 'forgot' cost when it isn't weekly, but we should be honest with the cadence.
  275. # [17:55] <@davidb> honest with ourselves :)
  276. # [17:56] <@marcoz> davidb: Agreed...
  277. # [17:56] <@davidb> do you see any reason we shouldn't?
  278. # [17:56] <@marcoz> If there is a need for an irregular meeting, we can still announce that.
  279. # [17:56] <@davidb> right
  280. # [17:57] <@davidb> our efforts are largely parallelized, and there isn't a lot of team interaction during the meetings, so I'm not sure they are affective.
  281. # [17:58] <@davidb> effective
  282. # [17:58] <@davidb> I'm leaning towards more impromptu meetings.
  283. # [17:59] <@davidb> We just have that kind of team. Why fight it.
  284. # [18:02] <@davidb> tbsaunde: feel like ramen?
  285. # [18:02] <@davidb> MarcoZ: so every two weeks + as needed WFM
  286. # [18:03] <@davidb> MarcoZ: I'll email everyone for thoughts
  287. # [18:03] <@davidb> actually that's just silly, we all know it is every two weeks already :)
  288. # [18:03] <@davidb> MarcoZ: so next time you announce a meeting indicate that it isn't weekly I guess :)
  289. # [18:05] <@marcoz> davidb: Will do that!
  290. # [18:06] <@marcoz> And will then update the general meting page to reflect that, too.
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  308. # [20:20] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org set status-firefox18 to affected on bug 800905.
  309. # [20:20] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=800905 maj, --, ---, eitan, NEW, [AccessFu] Web content in every tab but the first is no longer accessible
  310. # [20:20] * clown_mtg is now known as clown
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  316. # [20:36] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 802273 filed by eitan@monotonous.org.
  317. # [20:36] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=802273 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] Remove presentLastPivot antipattern
  318. # [20:37] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from dbolter@mozilla.com for attachment 671945 on bug 802273.
  319. # [20:39] * @davidb runs
  320. # [20:39] <@davidb> gotta run. will be back on the clock in about 1 hr
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  337. # [21:35] <@firebot> michaljev@o2.pl changed the Assignee on bug 678477 from nobody@mozilla.org to michaljev@o2.pl.
  338. # [21:35] <@firebot> michaljev@o2.pl changed the Status on bug 678477 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
  339. # [21:35] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678477 nor, --, ---, michaljev, ASSI, change ownership of nsCaretAccessible
  340. # [21:38] <@tbsaunde> fxa90id: uhm, aren't you going to finish 779520 first?
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  342. # [21:52] <fxa90id> :D
  343. # [21:52] <fxa90id> yes :)
  344. # [21:53] <fxa90id> surkov said that I should wait for your fix
  345. # [21:54] <fxa90id> oh your comment
  346. # [21:54] <fxa90id> true I'll revert this
  347. # [21:58] <fxa90id> tbsaunde, how its going :-) ?
  348. # [22:03] * shorlander is now known as shorlander-away
  349. # [22:04] <@tbsaunde> fxa90id: fine
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  353. # [22:11] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com granted review for attachment 671945 on bug 802273.
  354. # [22:12] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=802273 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] Remove presentLastPivot antipattern
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  372. # Session Close: Wed Oct 17 00:00:00 2012

The end :)