/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2012-10-19 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Fri Oct 19 00:40:58 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
  3. # [00:40] * Now talking in #accessibility
  4. # [00:40] * Topic is '"build the web for everyone"'
  5. # [00:40] * Set by davidb on Tue Aug 07 15:29:32
  6. # [01:01] * Joins: sat-dav (satdav@moz-B6463CBE.cable.virginmedia.com)
  7. # [01:02] * Quits: satdav_ (satdav@moz-B6463CBE.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout)
  8. # [01:02] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 803327 filed by eitan@monotonous.org.
  9. # [01:02] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=803327 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] No window is passed to Presenter.viewportChanged()
  10. # [01:04] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from dbolter@mozilla.com for attachment 672993 on bug 803327.
  11. # [01:10] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from dbolter@mozilla.com for attachment 672996 on bug 803112.
  12. # [01:10] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=803112 cri, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] AccessFu completely broken starting in the 2012-10-18 nightly build
  13. # [01:10] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  14. # [01:10] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
  15. # [01:13] <sat-dav> eeejay, ping
  16. # [01:13] <eeejay> sat-dav, yeah?
  17. # [01:14] * sat-dav is now known as satdav
  18. # [01:17] <satdav> eeejay, what you doing next wednesday about 3pm pst
  19. # [01:20] * Joins: satdav_ (satdav@moz-B6463CBE.cable.virginmedia.com)
  20. # [01:21] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com granted review for attachment 672996 on bug 803112.
  21. # [01:21] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=803112 cri, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] AccessFu completely broken starting in the 2012-10-18 nightly build
  22. # [01:21] * Quits: satdav (satdav@moz-B6463CBE.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout)
  23. # [01:24] * satdav_ is now known as satdav
  24. # [01:30] * Quits: satdav (satdav@moz-B6463CBE.cable.virginmedia.com) (Connection reset by peer)
  25. # [01:58] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  26. # [02:05] * Quits: nhirata (nhirata.bu@moz-C03D0C61.vlan426.asr1.sfo1.gblx.net) (Quit: nhirata)
  27. # [02:33] * Quits: shorlander (shorlander@moz-230AEA61.dhcp.insightbb.com) (Quit: Quit)
  28. # [02:48] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
  29. # [03:27] * Joins: Jamie (Instantbir@moz-CA26021.jantrid.net)
  30. # [04:20] * Joins: surkov (surkov@517042E9.EB0C4793.EBE09E3C.IP)
  31. # [04:20] * ChanServ sets mode: +o surkov
  32. # [04:42] * Quits: peteb-away (ptbrunet@moz-E9B02845.austin.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout)
  33. # [05:20] * Quits: ehsan (ehsan@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Input/output error)
  34. # [05:22] * Quits: @surkov (surkov@517042E9.EB0C4793.EBE09E3C.IP) (Quit: surkov)
  35. # Session Close: Fri Oct 19 05:30:10 2012
  36. #
  37. # Session Start: Fri Oct 19 05:30:10 2012
  38. # Session Ident: #accessibility
  39. # [05:30] * Disconnected
  40. # [05:32] * Attempting to rejoin channel #accessibility
  41. # [05:32] * Rejoined channel #accessibility
  42. # [05:32] * Topic is '"build the web for everyone"'
  43. # [05:32] * Set by davidb on Tue Aug 07 15:29:32
  44. # [06:27] * Joins: surkov (surkov@517042E9.EB0C4793.EBE09E3C.IP)
  45. # [06:27] * ChanServ sets mode: +o surkov
  46. # [06:34] * Joins: ehsan (ehsan@moz-C48D29C4.cable.teksavvy.com)
  47. # [07:17] * Quits: ehsan (ehsan@moz-C48D29C4.cable.teksavvy.com) (Connection reset by peer)
  48. # [07:18] * Joins: ehsan (ehsan@moz-C48D29C4.cable.teksavvy.com)
  49. # [07:32] * Quits: ehsan (ehsan@moz-C48D29C4.cable.teksavvy.com) (Connection reset by peer)
  50. # [07:32] * Joins: ehsan_ (ehsan@moz-C48D29C4.cable.teksavvy.com)
  51. # [07:59] * Quits: fxa90id (fxa90id@moz-4703E874.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl) (Connection reset by peer)
  52. # [08:10] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  53. # [08:20] * Joins: margle (margle@moz-A44968D.dsl.mweb.co.za)
  54. # [08:56] * Joins: mdcurran (mick@moz-C48DC1F2.static.tpgi.com.au)
  55. # [08:57] * Quits: mdcurran (mick@moz-C48DC1F2.static.tpgi.com.au) (Connection reset by peer)
  56. # [09:01] * Joins: mdcurran (mick@moz-C48DC1F2.static.tpgi.com.au)
  57. # [09:14] <@firebot> marioalv.mozilla@gmail.com requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 673115 on bug 797637.
  58. # [09:14] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797637 nor, --, ---, marioalv.mozilla, NEW, test_text_alg.html shouldn't print out gigantic strings of 'xxxxx's to the log
  59. # [09:16] * Joins: mdupont (mdupont@moz-B36B1EBD.unitymediagroup.de)
  60. # [09:17] * Quits: margle (margle@moz-A44968D.dsl.mweb.co.za) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  61. # [09:19] * Joins: margle (margle@moz-A44968D.dsl.mweb.co.za)
  62. # [09:21] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@714E29CB.13DB46CE.3B93FF6D.IP)
  63. # [09:26] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 740764 from --- to mozilla19.
  64. # [09:26] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=740764 nor, --, mozilla19, surkov.alexander, NEW, Restrict object attributes inheritance through documents to ARIA attributes
  65. # [09:34] * Joins: marcoz (marco.zehe@moz-79FB4549.dip.t-dialin.net)
  66. # [09:34] * ChanServ sets mode: +o marcoz
  67. # [09:42] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 803465 filed by surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  68. # [09:42] <@firebot> Bug 803465 was not found.
  69. # [10:50] * Joins: AleksandarS (Aleksandar@6CF6BCBD.8384669D.90C2761D.IP)
  70. # [10:52] * Quits: ehsan_ (ehsan@moz-C48D29C4.cable.teksavvy.com) (Input/output error)
  71. # [11:09] * Quits: mdcurran (mick@moz-C48DC1F2.static.tpgi.com.au) (Ping timeout)
  72. # [11:12] * Joins: mdcurran (mick@moz-C48DC1F2.static.tpgi.com.au)
  73. # [11:15] * Quits: mdcurran (mick@moz-C48DC1F2.static.tpgi.com.au) (Ping timeout)
  74. # [11:20] * Quits: Jamie (Instantbir@moz-CA26021.jantrid.net) (Quit: Instantbird 1.3a1pre -- http://www.instantbird.com)
  75. # [11:35] * Joins: Stevef (chatzilla@moz-BA0D1E63.subs.ibrowse.com)
  76. # [11:56] * Quits: Stevef (chatzilla@moz-BA0D1E63.subs.ibrowse.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 16.0.1/20121010144125])
  77. # [12:00] * Quits: AleksandarS (Aleksandar@6CF6BCBD.8384669D.90C2761D.IP) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 16.0.1/20121010144125])
  78. # [12:10] * Quits: margle (margle@moz-A44968D.dsl.mweb.co.za) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  79. # Session Close: Fri Oct 19 12:11:45 2012
  80. #
  81. # Session Start: Fri Oct 19 12:11:45 2012
  82. # Session Ident: #accessibility
  83. # [12:11] * Disconnected
  84. # [12:12] * Attempting to rejoin channel #accessibility
  85. # [12:12] * Rejoined channel #accessibility
  86. # [12:12] * Topic is '"build the web for everyone"'
  87. # [12:12] * Set by davidb on Tue Aug 07 15:29:32
  88. # [12:25] * Joins: margle (margle@moz-A44968D.dsl.mweb.co.za)
  89. # [13:17] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Assignee on bug 612830 from nobody@mozilla.org to surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  90. # [13:17] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 673175 on bug 612830.
  91. # [13:17] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 612830 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
  92. # [13:17] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=612830 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, make HTML document accessible work even when there's no body
  93. # [13:18] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 673177 on bug 612830.
  94. # [13:36] * Quits: @surkov (surkov@517042E9.EB0C4793.EBE09E3C.IP) (Quit: surkov)
  95. # [13:40] * Quits: @jprmc (jprmc@moz-7F2FF3EB.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout)
  96. # [13:51] * Joins: icaaq1 (Adium@714E29CB.13DB46CE.3B93FF6D.IP)
  97. # [13:51] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@714E29CB.13DB46CE.3B93FF6D.IP) (Connection reset by peer)
  98. # [13:54] * Quits: margle (margle@moz-A44968D.dsl.mweb.co.za) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  99. # [13:55] * Joins: margle (margle@moz-A44968D.dsl.mweb.co.za)
  100. # [14:06] * Quits: @marcoz (marco.zehe@moz-79FB4549.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  101. # [14:17] * Quits: icaaq1 (Adium@714E29CB.13DB46CE.3B93FF6D.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
  102. # [14:23] * Joins: marcoz (marco.zehe@moz-79FB4549.dip.t-dialin.net)
  103. # [14:32] * Joins: Justin_o (Justin_o@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
  104. # [14:40] * ChanServ sets mode: +o marcoz
  105. # [14:46] * Joins: peteb-away (ptbrunet@moz-E9B02845.austin.res.rr.com)
  106. # [14:53] * Joins: ehsan (ehsan@moz-C48D29C4.cable.teksavvy.com)
  107. # [15:05] * Joins: surkov (surkov@517042E9.EB0C4793.EBE09E3C.IP)
  108. # [15:05] * ChanServ sets mode: +o surkov
  109. # [15:08] * Quits: margle (margle@moz-A44968D.dsl.mweb.co.za) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  110. # [15:12] * Joins: davidb (davidb@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
  111. # [15:12] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo davidb davidb
  112. # [15:22] <@davidb> heyo
  113. # [15:23] <@davidb> surkov: good evening
  114. # [15:23] <@surkov> davidb: hello
  115. # [15:23] <@davidb> anyone have weekend plans?
  116. # [15:23] <@davidb> hi marcoz
  117. # [15:24] <@davidb> guys I was looking at pictures for the last Summit… we looked so happy :)
  118. # [15:24] <@davidb> I hope there will be another summit one day
  119. # [15:24] <@surkov> times are changing :)
  120. # [15:24] <@davidb> ebb and flow
  121. # [15:26] <@marcoz> Hi davidb, surkov!
  122. # [15:26] <@surkov> hye, marcoz
  123. # [15:26] <@marcoz> I hope the next summit, if there will be one, will be in a similarly beautiful location as Whistler was! But it will be huge huge huge. Like this company now has as many employees as were at the last summit.
  124. # [15:27] <@davidb> Whistler was a great location
  125. # [15:27] <@marcoz> As for weekend plans: We have a breakout of some golden October weather here, I believe this is also called Indian Summer or so, and we'll be a bit outside, girlfriend taking pictures, etc.
  126. # [15:28] <@marcoz> It was, but I believe it already was at its limits with our last summit. :)
  127. # [15:30] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com granted review for attachment 673123 on bug 803465.
  128. # [15:30] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=803465 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, Iframe shouldn't override a sub document role
  129. # [15:31] <@surkov> davidb: you're fast
  130. # [15:31] <@davidb> surkov: I'm surprised there were no test changes required
  131. # [15:31] <@surkov> davidb: we don't have full coveredge
  132. # [15:31] <@davidb> clearly :)
  133. # [15:33] <@davidb> marcoz: being outside this weekend sounds nice
  134. # [15:33] <@davidb> I need to do some walks in the woods before all the leaves fall.
  135. # [15:34] * Quits: mdupont (mdupont@moz-B36B1EBD.unitymediagroup.de) (Ping timeout)
  136. # [15:34] <@davidb> surkov: the patch seems really straightforward.
  137. # [15:36] <@surkov> I know
  138. # [15:37] * Quits: @surkov (surkov@517042E9.EB0C4793.EBE09E3C.IP) (Quit: surkov)
  139. # [15:40] * Joins: mwcampbell (matt@moz-C5A18427.ks.ks.cox.net)
  140. # [15:49] * Joins: surkov (surkov@517042E9.EB0C4793.EBE09E3C.IP)
  141. # [15:49] * ChanServ sets mode: +o surkov
  142. # [15:54] <mwcampbell> Has any documentation been written yet about how accessibility is going to be implemented on Firefox OS?
  143. # [15:58] * Quits: Justin_o (Justin_o@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP) (Quit: Justin_o)
  144. # [16:01] * Quits: ehsan (ehsan@moz-C48D29C4.cable.teksavvy.com) (Input/output error)
  145. # [16:08] <@marcoz> mwcampbell: Not yet, but the architecture is similar to what we have in Firefox for Android. There's the core in C++ that also fires IA2 etc. on the desktop, and a JavaScript layer that queries this core and generates speech output. The plan is to provide a similar out-of-the-box experience as with iOS.
  146. # [16:10] <mwcampbell> Sounds good. So then I guess inter-process communication will be limited to sending TTS commands to another process, if even that.
  147. # [16:10] <mwcampbell> IPC has of course been the bane of Windows accessibility APIs, forcing us Windows screen reader devs to inject code into the browser process
  148. # [16:13] <mwcampbell> sorry, I should only speak for myself
  149. # [16:13] <@marcoz> Nope, I believe *every* Windows SR vendor has done that. Everything else is just too slow.
  150. # [16:14] * Quits: peteb-away (ptbrunet@moz-E9B02845.austin.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout)
  151. # [16:14] <@marcoz> I am not even sure the TTS is loaded by a separate process. Remember Gecko is the platform for Firefox OS, so the accessibility layer is deeply embedded, and so will the speech synth be that we'll be using. Not sure if that will be in-process or out of process.
  152. # [16:15] <@marcoz> davidb: Do you know?
  153. # [16:15] <mwcampbell> Any idea which TTS engine(s) you'll be shipping?
  154. # [16:15] <mwcampbell> \The best open-source one I've heard is MARY (http://mary.dfki.de), but it's in Java
  155. # [16:16] <@marcoz> We're currently looking at svox.
  156. # [16:17] <@marcoz> We have a compatible port for that in local builds of Firefox OS.
  157. # [16:17] <mwcampbell> Will the Firefox OS screen reader have a distinction between browse mode and focus mode?
  158. # [16:18] <mwcampbell> or forms mode or whatever you want to call it
  159. # [16:19] <@marcoz> Not really. All devices we're currently talking about will be touch-screen based, and there is not really a need to distinguish. If something will be entered, the keyboard will pop up as for anyone else. The experience will be similar to iOS and Firefox for Android, where there is no such distinction, either.
  160. # [16:20] * Joins: Justin_o (Justin_o@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
  161. # [16:21] <mwcampbell> marcoz: OK, makes sense. I'm not even sure why the other Windows screen reader devs opted for a user-visible distinction between browse and focus mode. Serotek's System Access constantly keeps the real focus in sync with the virtual cursor, and decides which "mode" to use on a per-keystroke basis, based on the keystroke itself and where the focus is.
  162. # [16:23] <@marcoz> Oh, this "religious" debate is as old as browser support in screen readers, and there are pros and cons for either approach, each defender of positions would argue. :) I must admit I've grown very fond of the way Mac OS does it where there is no distinction, either, but there is a toggle of quick navigatin that, when enabled, will grab keys even when focused on edits. So a distinction yes, but a very consistent one, either fully on,
  163. # [16:27] <mwcampbell> These days I question the wisdom of a "virtual buffer", as Windows screen readers typically implement it. As I understand it, VoiceOver on both Mac and iOS simply walks the leaves of the accessibility tree as you swipe or use the VO navigation commands.
  164. # [16:28] * Joins: ehsan (ehsan@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
  165. # [16:29] <@marcoz> I believe so, too, yes. And oh yeah, esp with true web applications, the virtual buffer concept has caused me many headaches over the past couple of years.
  166. # [16:34] <mwcampbell> I wonder if the approach being taken on Android and Firefox OS can, with some cooperation from screen reader developers, be extended to Windows as well.
  167. # [16:34] <mwcampbell> That is, let Firefox be its own screen reader and just feed TTS commands to the main screen reader.
  168. # [16:35] <mwcampbell> We would just have to work out a protocol between Firefox and Windows screen readers such that Firefox turns on its built-in screen reader and the Windows screen reader more or less goes to sleep
  169. # [16:36] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Resolution on bug 740764 from --- to FIXED.
  170. # [16:36] <@firebot> bmo@edmorley.co.uk changed the Status on bug 740764 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  171. # [16:36] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=740764 nor, --, mozilla19, surkov.alexander, RESO FIXED, Restrict object attributes inheritance through documents to ARIA attributes
  172. # [16:37] * Joins: shorlander-away (shorlander@moz-230AEA61.dhcp.insightbb.com)
  173. # [16:38] <@marcoz> mwcampbell: Hah, while I could potentially see NVDA agree to this, I believe the commercial ones will not be as willing. After all, it's one of the domains where they can implement distinctive features. Office, and other desktop app stuff, is mostly done, there's not much to invent there, but with all the stuff happening on the web, the commercial ones will probably not want to give up that domain.
  174. # [16:48] <mwcampbell> I wonder how difficult it would be to port the screen reader from mobile Firefox to Windows, using the NVDA controller API as a proof of concept
  175. # [16:48] <mwcampbell> Doesn't that screen reader have some keyboard support, because it was needed for Android?
  176. # [16:48] <@davidb> sorry guys, was in a meeting, trying to catch up now
  177. # [16:48] <mwcampbell> OK I'll slow down
  178. # [16:49] <@davidb> all injection is common now (windows)
  179. # [16:49] * @davidb was doing that in 1997
  180. # [16:49] <@davidb> all/dll
  181. # [16:51] <@davidb> mwcampbell: thinking through how our FF OS screen reader could work on desktop and integrate with other screen readers is definitely worthwhile.
  182. # [16:51] * shorlander-away is now known as shorlander
  183. # [16:54] <@marcoz> mwcampbell: davidb: Porting AccessFu (our code name for it) to the desktop wouldn't be difficult at all, we'd need to add the bits to talk to either the NVDA controller or SAPI directly (on Windows). Since this is all in the JS part, porting should really be easy.
  184. # [16:55] <@davidb> right
  185. # [16:55] <mwcampbell> And System Access implements the NVDA controller API
  186. # [16:56] <@davidb> mwcampbell: are you volunteering :)
  187. # [16:56] <mwcampbell> I am
  188. # [16:56] <mwcampbell> as an experiment, anyway
  189. # [16:56] <@davidb> sounds good to me, but definitely get in touch with eeejay
  190. # [16:57] <mwcampbell> The tricky part would be a protocol between Firefox and the Windows screen reader
  191. # [16:58] <mwcampbell> so Firefox would know that the Windows screen reader supports this system, so Firefox can activate AccessFu
  192. # [16:58] <@marcoz> davidb: mwcampbell: Yes, sounds interesting indeed! I'd be willing to follow this along closely as well.
  193. # [16:59] <mwcampbell> and of course the Windows screen reader would need to basically go to sleep, at least when the focus is in the content area
  194. # [16:59] * Joins: clown (clown@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
  195. # [16:59] <mwcampbell> presumably the Windows screen reader would still handle access to the XUL chrome
  196. # [16:59] <@marcoz> mwcampbell: We already have injected DLL sniffing in our Windows layer. But that would be obsoleted as soon as you'd stop injecting a module.
  197. # [16:59] <@davidb> http://mindforks.blogspot.ca/2010/04/self-voicing-apps-and-screen-readers.html
  198. # [16:59] * Quits: Justin_o (Justin_o@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP) (Quit: Justin_o)
  199. # [17:01] * Joins: mwcampbell1 (matt@moz-C5A18427.ks.ks.cox.net)
  200. # [17:01] <mwcampbell1> damn wireless router
  201. # [17:02] <mwcampbell1> Anyway, if we do this cooperation between Windows screen reader and self-voicing browser right, then Chromium and ChromeVox could get on board too
  202. # [17:03] <mwcampbell1> What repository is AccessFu in?
  203. # [17:05] <@davidb> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/accessible/src/jsat/
  204. # [17:05] <@marcoz> mwcampbell1: It's either in the http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central repository, or its clone on Github. Not sure about that URL right now, though.
  205. # [17:05] <@marcoz> And in there, in the accessible/src/jsat folder, whichever you decide to pull/fork.
  206. # [17:05] <@marcoz> …or what Davidb said.
  207. # [17:06] <@davidb> hhe
  208. # [17:06] * @marcoz hardly uses mxr, and constantly forgets about that.
  209. # [17:06] * Quits: mwcampbell (matt@moz-C5A18427.ks.ks.cox.net) (Client exited)
  210. # [17:06] * mwcampbell1 is now known as mwcampbell
  211. # [17:07] <mwcampbell> now cloning from hg
  212. # [17:11] <mwcampbell> Could AccessFu be packaged as an addon for desktop Firefox, or would it need to be more tightly integrated?
  213. # [17:12] <@davidb> it is already integrated
  214. # [17:12] <@davidb> there is a config pref
  215. # [17:12] <mwcampbell> OK, I thought it was only in the mobile build
  216. # [17:13] <@davidb> eeejay: should be around in about an hour
  217. # [17:13] <mwcampbell> But it can't yet talk to any TTS on Windows, can it?
  218. # [17:13] <@davidb> -:
  219. # [17:13] <mwcampbell> I'll wait
  220. # [17:13] <@davidb> Not yet
  221. # [17:13] <@davidb> :)
  222. # [17:13] * Joins: Justin_o (Justin_o@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
  223. # [17:14] <mwcampbell> Would I implement TTS support for Windows by writing a new XPCOM component?
  224. # [17:14] <mwcampbell> I used to be quite familiar with XPCOM, in both C++ and JS
  225. # [17:15] * Joins: nhirata (nhirata.bu@moz-6D599AA6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  226. # [17:18] * @marcoz hides.
  227. # [17:18] <mwcampbell> What did I say wrong?
  228. # [17:19] <@marcoz> mwcampbell: Nothing. XPCOM just makes me hide automaticaly. :)
  229. # [17:25] * Quits: eeejay (eeejay@254285E4.737470A8.A0C1B52F.IP) (Ping timeout)
  230. # [17:28] * Joins: eeejay (eeejay@254285E4.737470A8.A0C1B52F.IP)
  231. # [17:29] <@marcoz> Just sent eeejay an e-mail which will hopefully make him happy as a starter for the day. :)
  232. # [17:33] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
  233. # [17:44] <@davidb> that can't be a bad thing
  234. # [17:47] * Quits: Justin_o (Justin_o@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP) (Quit: Justin_o)
  235. # [17:58] * Joins: Justin_o (Justin_o@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
  236. # [17:58] <mwcampbell> How does AccessFu navigate a web page? Does it build a virtual buffer like the Windows screen readers, or somehow traverse the accessible tree directly?
  237. # [17:59] <@davidb> more directly
  238. # [18:00] <@davidb> some state is stored
  239. # [18:00] <@davidb> and some context is done live
  240. # [18:00] <@davidb> but eeejay is the one to answer
  241. # [18:07] <eeejay> yo yo
  242. # [18:09] <eeejay> mwcampbell, we don't build a virtual buffer
  243. # [18:10] * Joins: margle (margle@moz-A44968D.dsl.mweb.co.za)
  244. # [18:15] <mwcampbell> eeejay: What do you think about porting AccessFu to Windows?
  245. # [18:17] <eeejay> mwcampbell, it has been considered in the past, mixed feelings
  246. # [18:22] * Joins: jprmc (jprmc@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
  247. # [18:22] * ChanServ sets mode: +o jprmc
  248. # [18:23] <mwcampbell> eeejay: Care to elaborate? What do you think would be the challenges or disadvantages?
  249. # [18:23] * Quits: @jprmc (jprmc@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Quit: Leaving)
  250. # [18:27] <eeejay> mwcampbell, well, what specifically in accessfu do you think is worth porting?
  251. # [18:28] * Quits: @surkov (surkov@517042E9.EB0C4793.EBE09E3C.IP) (Quit: surkov)
  252. # [18:38] <mwcampbell> eeejay: I think that a virtual buffer, as implemented by most Windows screen readers, is coming to the end of its useful life, as web apps get more sophisticated. So we need to experiment with other ways of making web pages accessible to blind users. IIUC, AccessFu traverses the accessible tree directly. Since it runs inside the browser process, it can do this efficiently. And since it's written in JavaScript, it's probably more malleable
  253. # [18:40] <mwcampbell> I guess the first step would be for me to write a C++ XPCOM component for accessing the Microsoft Speech API and the various Windows screen reader speech APIs
  254. # [18:40] <mwcampbell> starting with the NVDA controller API
  255. # [18:43] * Quits: Hixie (ianh@C6D27F7B.5EFFBB68.81BC061B.IP) (Input/output error)
  256. # [18:45] <eeejay> mwcampbell, another good thing to investigate is our nsIAccessiblePivot
  257. # [18:45] <eeejay> mwcampbell, it is an in-browser virtual cursor implemented in c++, that allows filtered tree traversal
  258. # [18:46] <eeejay> mwcampbell, it is in the heart of accessfu, i would like to see desktop platforms get access to it. i think it would lead to a very snappy browsing experience
  259. # [18:47] <eeejay> mwcampbell, what i am reluctant about is to have firefox be a self voicing application with an inconsistent user experience with the rest of the desktop
  260. # [18:47] <mwcampbell> Is there any way for Windows screen readers to access that yet?
  261. # [18:49] <mwcampbell> I suppose it doesn't map to anything in MSAA or IA2
  262. # [18:51] <eeejay> mwcampbell, no. but it would be nice if it did.
  263. # [19:02] <mwcampbell> damn, I wish that had existed in late 2003
  264. # [19:02] <mwcampbell> I wrote a (proprietary) self-voicing extension to Mozilla in 2003-2004, in JavaScript
  265. # [19:02] <mwcampbell> it mostly used the DOM API and DOM events, not the accessibility API
  266. # [19:03] <mwcampbell> and it traversed the DOM up-front when the page loaded to create a virtual buffer, because I couldn't think of anything better
  267. # [19:06] <mwcampbell> Does the pivot stay up to date when the page changes?
  268. # [19:13] <eeejay> mwcampbell, yes, it does
  269. # [19:13] <eeejay> mwcampbell, it traverses the live tree, for better or worse
  270. # [19:14] <mwcampbell> Already having doubts about traversing the live tree? That sounds like a good approach to me.
  271. # [19:15] <@marcoz> Heyo eeejay! Saw my e-mail?
  272. # [19:15] <eeejay> marcoz, yep... landing in 30 seconds :)
  273. # [19:16] <@marcoz> \-O-/
  274. # [19:16] <eeejay> mwcampbell, it is. but with all the rich web applications, you need to deal gracefully with cases when the node you are on disappears
  275. # [19:16] <eeejay> mwcampbell, just something to be careful of
  276. # [19:17] <@marcoz> OK, I think I'll hit the weekend! See you on Monday, folks!
  277. # [19:17] * Quits: @marcoz (marco.zehe@moz-79FB4549.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  278. # [19:19] <mwcampbell> eeejay: Understood. It's surely better than traversing the DOM all over again to create a new virtual buffer when something changes
  279. # [19:20] <eeejay> mwcampbell, nvda does this too?
  280. # [19:20] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org changed the Assignee on bug 803112 from nobody@mozilla.org to eitan@monotonous.org.
  281. # [19:20] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=803112 cri, --, ---, eitan, NEW, [AccessFu] AccessFu completely broken starting in the 2012-10-18 nightly build
  282. # [19:21] <mwcampbell> eeejay: No, not NVDA, as far as I know
  283. # [19:21] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org changed the Assignee on bug 802273 from nobody@mozilla.org to eitan@monotonous.org.
  284. # [19:21] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=802273 nor, --, ---, eitan, NEW, [AccessFu] Remove presentLastPivot antipattern
  285. # [19:21] <mwcampbell> I was referring to Serotek System Access, which I work on
  286. # [19:22] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org changed the Assignee on bug 802415 from nobody@mozilla.org to eitan@monotonous.org.
  287. # [19:22] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=802415 nor, --, ---, eitan, NEW, [AccessFu] Introduce better feedback when switching tabs and focusing on content area.
  288. # [19:22] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org changed the Assignee on bug 803327 from nobody@mozilla.org to eitan@monotonous.org.
  289. # [19:22] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=803327 nor, --, ---, eitan, NEW, [AccessFu] No window is passed to Presenter.viewportChanged()
  290. # [19:23] <eeejay> mwcampbell, by work on you mean develop?
  291. # [19:24] <mwcampbell> yes
  292. # [19:24] <eeejay> mwcampbell, cool. well, nvda is another example where you don't have to use a virtual buffer
  293. # [19:40] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com granted review for attachment 672993 on bug 803327.
  294. # [19:40] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=803327 nor, --, ---, eitan, NEW, [AccessFu] No window is passed to Presenter.viewportChanged()
  295. # [19:49] <@davidb> eeejay: ping
  296. # [19:49] <eeejay> davidb, yo
  297. # [19:50] <@davidb> where is the event with type 'accessibility-screenreader' generated?
  298. # [19:50] <eeejay> davidb, thanks for the retroactive review
  299. # [19:50] <@davidb> yeah yeah
  300. # [19:50] <eeejay> davidb, it used to live in gaia, in the screen reader setting before it was yanked
  301. # [19:51] <@davidb> so that is currently dead code?
  302. # [19:51] <@davidb> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/accessible/src/jsat/AccessFu.jsm#210
  303. # [19:52] <eeejay> davidb, correct
  304. # [19:52] <@davidb> ok
  305. # [19:52] <eeejay> davidb, until it is reintroduced in gaia
  306. # [19:52] <@davidb> eeejay: i'm looking to add a mochitest for turning accessfu on
  307. # [19:53] <@davidb> I can do SpecialPowers.setBoolPref("accessibility.accessfu.activate", aOnOff);
  308. # [19:53] <@davidb> but I want to catch a subsequent event… not sure which
  309. # [19:53] <eeejay> davidb, hm. you could eather just set the pref directly, or you could simulate each platforms behavior
  310. # [19:53] <@davidb> for now i think just the pref
  311. # [19:53] <eeejay> davidb, in android you would send an Accessibility:Settings message, and for b2g send a special DOM event
  312. # [19:53] * @davidb nods
  313. # [19:54] <@davidb> eeejay: what is a good test for 'yes it came alive'?
  314. # [19:55] <eeejay> davidb, check AccessFu._enabled?
  315. # [19:55] <@davidb> i guess...
  316. # [19:55] <eeejay> davidb, we could un-underbar it
  317. # [19:56] <@davidb> let me see.
  318. # [20:31] * Joins: Hixie (ianh@C6D27F7B.5EFFBB68.81BC061B.IP)
  319. # [21:00] * Joins: mdupont (mdupont@moz-B36B1EBD.unitymediagroup.de)
  320. # [21:02] * Joins: Tad (Mibbit@moz-CF241266.perr.cable.virginmedia.com)
  321. # [21:09] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 803638 filed by eitan@monotonous.org.
  322. # [21:09] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=803638 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] Print more useful exception error outputs
  323. # [21:12] * Joins: richardschwerdtfeger (richardsch@moz-741065CC.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net)
  324. # [21:14] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  325. # [21:17] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from dbolter@mozilla.com for attachment 673341 on bug 803638.
  326. # [21:18] * Joins: jprmc (jprmc@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
  327. # [21:18] * ChanServ sets mode: +o jprmc
  328. # [21:39] * Quits: mwcampbell (matt@moz-C5A18427.ks.ks.cox.net) (Quit: Leaving)
  329. # [21:41] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com granted review for attachment 673341 on bug 803638.
  330. # [21:41] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=803638 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] Print more useful exception error outputs
  331. # [21:45] * Quits: Tad (Mibbit@moz-CF241266.perr.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  332. # [21:50] * Quits: @jprmc (jprmc@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Quit: Leaving)
  333. # [22:06] <@firebot> enndeakin@gmail.com changed the Assignee on bug 782547 from nobody@mozilla.org to enndeakin@gmail.com.
  334. # [22:06] <@firebot> enndeakin@gmail.com requested feedback from surkov.alexander@ gmail.com for attachment 673382 on bug 782547.
  335. # [22:06] <@firebot> enndeakin@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 782547 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
  336. # [22:06] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=782547 nor, --, ---, enndeakin, ASSI, Accessible focus not fired after dismissing modal OS dialogs (e.g. file chooser and print dialogs)
  337. # [22:11] * Joins: drexler (chatzilla@moz-CE0B60D0.hsd1.vt.comcast.net)
  338. # [22:13] <@davidb> 4pm is such a PITA
  339. # [22:14] <@tbsaunde> davidb: why?
  340. # [22:15] <@davidb> tbsaunde: because I'm usually deep into something and now I have to think about heading home soon
  341. # [22:15] <@davidb> so i need to check loose ends
  342. # [22:17] * Quits: Justin_o (Justin_o@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP) (Quit: Justin_o)
  343. # [22:18] <@tbsaunde> davidb: get a better schedule :)
  344. # [22:18] <@davidb> yeah
  345. # [22:18] <@davidb> or change the circadian rythym
  346. # [22:23] * Joins: AleksandarS (Aleksandar@6CF6BCBD.8384669D.90C2761D.IP)
  347. # [22:25] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
  348. # [22:27] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from dbolter@mozilla.com for attachment 673391 on bug 802999.
  349. # [22:27] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=802999 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] Typed keys no longer echoed back by TalkBak in web content
  350. # [22:30] <eeejay> i think with the fix to bug 802999, we caught up to to preaccessfu refactor
  351. # [22:37] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com granted review for attachment 673391 on bug 802999.
  352. # [22:38] * Quits: @davidb (davidb@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Quit: davidb)
  353. # [22:51] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org changed the Assignee on bug 803638 from nobody@mozilla.org to eitan@monotonous.org.
  354. # [22:51] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=803638 nor, --, ---, eitan, NEW, [AccessFu] Print more useful exception error outputs
  355. # [22:51] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org changed the Assignee on bug 802999 from nobody@mozilla.org to eitan@monotonous.org.
  356. # [22:51] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=802999 nor, --, ---, eitan, NEW, [AccessFu] Typed keys no longer echoed back by TalkBak in web content
  357. # [22:51] * eeejay is feeling good about mc
  358. # [22:54] * Quits: richardschwerdtfeger (richardsch@moz-741065CC.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: richardschwerdtfeger)
  359. # [22:59] * Parts: clown (clown@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
  360. # [23:04] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@6E729FE3.7DCD925.CE255B90.IP)
  361. # [23:32] * Quits: drexler (chatzilla@moz-CE0B60D0.hsd1.vt.comcast.net) (Ping timeout)
  362. # [23:43] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@6E729FE3.7DCD925.CE255B90.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
  363. # [23:45] * Quits: AleksandarS (Aleksandar@6CF6BCBD.8384669D.90C2761D.IP) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 16.0.1/20121010144125])
  364. # Session Close: Sat Oct 20 00:00:00 2012

The end :)