/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2012-11-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Nov 12 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  11. # [04:39] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Assignee on bug 810554 from nobody@mozilla.org to surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  12. # [04:39] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 680511 on bug 810554.
  13. # [04:39] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 810554 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
  14. # [04:39] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=810554 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, Intermittent TEST-UNEXPECTED-FAIL | states/test_link.html | Test timed out followed by states/test_p
  15. # [04:47] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com cancelled review?(surkov.alexander@gm ail.com) for attachment 680369 on bug 801356.
  16. # [04:47] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=801356 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, LeafAccessible needs to override Append/InsertChild
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  28. # [11:00] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Assignee on bug 525909 from nobody@mozilla.org to surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  29. # [11:00] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=525909 nor, P2, ---, surkov.alexander, NEW, Support ARIA role "rowgroup"
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  36. # Session Start: Mon Nov 12 12:24:34 2012
  37. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  41. # [12:26] * Topic is '"build the web for everyone"'
  42. # [12:26] * Set by davidb on Tue Aug 07 14:29:32
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  55. # [14:29] <@marcoz> Good day all!
  56. # [14:30] <@firebot> joey.blacksmith@gmail.com requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 680606 on bug 801356.
  57. # [14:31] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=801356 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, LeafAccessible needs to override Append/InsertChild
  58. # [14:32] <@tbsaunde> morning marcoz
  59. # [14:41] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@48287924.602BD6C.79933D60.IP)
  60. # [14:42] <@marcoz> Morning tbsaunde!
  61. # [14:42] <@marcoz> surkov: tbsaunde: Thanks for jumping on those random test failures and nailing them!
  62. # [14:43] <@surkov> marcoz: yw
  63. # [14:43] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com granted review for attachment 680606 on bug 801356.
  64. # [14:43] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=801356 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, LeafAccessible needs to override Append/InsertChild
  65. # [14:43] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Assignee on bug 801356 from nobody@mozilla.org to joey.blacksmith@gmail.com.
  66. # [14:44] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested feedback from trev.saunders@gma il.com for attachment 680606 on bug 801356.
  67. # [14:53] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 680608 on bug 525909.
  68. # [14:53] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=525909 nor, P2, ---, surkov.alexander, NEW, Support ARIA role "rowgroup"
  69. # [14:54] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com cancelled review?(trev.saunders@gmail .com) for attachment 680608 on bug 525909.
  70. # [14:54] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 680609 on bug 525909.
  71. # [14:57] <@tbsaunde> marcoz: np
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  76. # [15:05] <@davidb> heyo!
  77. # [15:07] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested feedback from dbolter@mozilla.c om for attachment 680609 on bug 525909.
  78. # [15:07] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=525909 nor, P2, ---, surkov.alexander, NEW, Support ARIA role "rowgroup"
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  81. # [15:15] <@tbsaunde> morning davidb
  82. # [15:15] <@davidb> hi tbsaunde
  83. # [15:16] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com granted feedback for attachment 680609 on bug 525909.
  84. # [15:16] <@davidb> tbsaunde: where are ya?
  85. # [15:20] <@davidb> marcoz: how was the weekend?
  86. # [15:20] <@tbsaunde> davidb: train pit -> trenton
  87. # [15:21] <@davidb> tbsaunde: oh you are on your way then?
  88. # [15:21] <@tbsaunde> davidb: well, the first half
  89. # [15:21] <@davidb> hub: how was St. Louis on Sunday? :)
  90. # [15:21] <@davidb> tbsaunde: ok
  91. # [15:21] <@tbsaunde> davidb: not sure exactly when I'll od the other half probably wensday or thursday maybe
  92. # [15:22] <@tbsaunde> hub was in st. louis?
  93. # [15:22] <@davidb> tbsaunde: the office isn't the same without you
  94. # [15:23] <@tbsaunde> davidb: oh?
  95. # [15:23] <@davidb> yeah
  96. # [15:23] <@davidb> especially this week with many people in vancouver
  97. # [15:24] <@davidb> very empty
  98. # [15:24] <@tbsaunde> davidb: yeah, I spose it was pretty empty last week
  99. # [15:24] <@davidb> yeah
  100. # [15:27] <@tbsaunde> davidb: on the other hand the office isn't the home of a bunch of really sweet hippyish women :-)
  101. # [15:27] <@davidb> i have noticed that to be somewhat true
  102. # [15:28] <@hub> davidb: was good.
  103. # [15:28] <@hub> tbsaunde: st louis is that bar we tried to get in last August
  104. # [15:29] <@davidb> after Tabule
  105. # [15:29] <@davidb> (my kids love Tabule btw)
  106. # [15:30] <@marcoz> Hi davidb!
  107. # [15:30] <@marcoz> Hi hub!
  108. # [15:30] <@marcoz> davidb: Weekend was good for the most part. Only sad part was that my first guide dog, Falko, passed away on Saturday.
  109. # [15:31] <@davidb> marcoz: oh right i saw that! my sincere condolences
  110. # [15:31] <@marcoz> He wasn't living with me any more, but still a bit sad to hear it. he was a great dog. :)
  111. # [15:31] <@davidb> yeah
  112. # [15:31] <@davidb> I remember him
  113. # [15:31] <@davidb> is it hitting you hard?
  114. # [15:31] <@marcoz> davidb: I don't think you ever met in person, since he never flew with me. :) But I spoke of him on occasion. ;)
  115. # [15:31] <@davidb> i couldn't tell from the tweet
  116. # [15:31] <@tbsaunde> hub: ah, ok :)
  117. # [15:32] <@davidb> marcoz: Falko? hmmm
  118. # [15:32] <@davidb> if he never flew with you then i never met him… must be thinking of pics
  119. # [15:33] <@marcoz> davidb: No, not hitting me that hard. Yesterday, when I got the news, it was a bit difficult for a while. But today, I'm OK again. It wasn't totally unexpected. On the contrary. he was 13, which is quite old for a German shepherd. I was surprised he held out for this long anyway, with all the problems he had lately.
  120. # [15:33] <@davidb> Yeah that is a decent age.
  121. # [15:34] <@hub> sorry to hear that
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  128. # [15:49] <@tbsaunde> arg, for some reason the field to comment on patches seems to be only one char wide
  129. # [15:49] * @tbsaunde very confused
  130. # [15:49] <@davidb> tbsaunde: i think i know what is happening
  131. # [15:49] <@davidb> tbsaunde: lazy editor instantiation
  132. # [15:49] <@davidb> tbsaunde: is this in nightly?
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  135. # [15:52] <@tbsaunde> davidb: yes
  136. # [15:53] <@tbsaunde> davidb: its not at all clear to me why that would be an issue or why only for the one field, others are fine
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  138. # [15:54] <@tbsaunde> I sort of suspect what's going on is the geometry of the firefox window is small and then that page narrows the width for the textarea, but I haven't really investigated, its just easier to download patches and comment in vim
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  141. # [15:56] <@marcoz> Phew…..Easier….Vim….. No I better shut up. ;)
  142. # [15:57] <@marcoz> davidb: 1:1?
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  145. # [15:58] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com granted review for attachment 679995 on bug 807911.
  146. # [15:58] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=807911 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, whittle mutation events processing
  147. # [15:58] <@marcoz> tbsaunde: If there's nothing in the field yet, it is only logical that its width is only 1 char. Or its character count. Or are you referring to actual screen dimensions?
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  150. # [16:00] <@davidb> marcoz: yes sir
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  152. # [16:04] <@hub> is there a way to check if a PDF is 'accessible' ?
  153. # [16:05] <@tbsaunde> marcoz: well, there was a full diff in it
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  155. # [16:08] <@tbsaunde> hub: I usually just read them by running them through pdftotext
  156. # [16:08] * @tbsaunde curses laggy connections
  157. # [16:09] <@tbsaunde> such is pensyltucky
  158. # [16:09] <@hub> tbsaunde: yeah then this would fail. My telco send e-bills in PDF, and these idiots write column by column
  159. # [16:09] <@hub> tbsaunde: instead of line by line
  160. # [16:11] <@tbsaunde> hub: I'm not sure what you mean
  161. # [16:11] <@hub> tbsaunde: the detail of calls
  162. # [16:11] <@hub> tbsaunde: the text is put columns by column
  163. # [16:11] <@hub> tbsaunde: which mean that PDF to text will have the first column, then the second column
  164. # [16:12] <@hub> tbsaunde: while the line/rows are the individual calls
  165. # [16:12] <@tbsaunde> hub: that seems like the sensible way to write the info down?
  166. # [16:12] <@hub> tbsaunde: not in that case. in that case, it is line by line
  167. # [16:12] <@hub> each call is a line
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  169. # [16:21] <@tbsaunde> so you have <phone number> <time> <length> ...
  170. # [16:24] <@hub> line by line yeah
  171. # [16:24] <@hub> currently I have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5,
  172. # [16:25] <@hub> which are the item numbers
  173. # [16:25] <@hub> then all the date/time
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  176. # [16:31] <@tbsaunde> me thing else to try and help with columns of text
  177. # [16:31] <@tbsaunde> I'm not sure which you want for that case
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  179. # [16:45] <@marcoz> hub: You can almost certainly be sure that that PDF isn' accessible. There is no automated way to make them accessible, esp in third-party tools. The only ones I know that publish decent accessible PDFs are the export functions of OpenOffice/LibreOffice, after you enable tags, and the Microsoft Office PDF filter.
  180. # [16:46] <@marcoz> Adobe's own accessible PDF converter built into Acrobat can also only make educated guesses, and then one has to correct tagging mistakes by hand. Acrobat XI is supposed to make things a little better, but haven't heard actual end user reports about it yet.
  181. # [16:46] <@hub> marcoz: and I'm sure that PDF is generated by some other software
  182. # [16:46] <@hub> marcoz: because it is a bill
  183. # [16:46] <@hub> marcoz: and it probably took the shortest path from their paper printing workflow
  184. # [16:47] <@marcoz> hub: As for the file format itself, I believe what one wants to look for is tagging info. If it is present, the PDF has any form of accessibility. Whether it makes sense, is another question. I've seen accessible PDFs which were total crap. :) If tags are not present, it's not accessible.
  185. # [16:48] <@marcoz> hub: Yeah you are most likely right. And then, the readers have to try to figure out from the text flow what could be meant. And there, it's really hard to know whether one is dealing with multi-column newspaper-style text or a data table.
  186. # [16:49] <@marcoz> Semantics, semantics, semantics. it all comes down to proper semantics.
  187. # [16:49] <@hub> marcoz: not that I when I asked myself whether the document was accessible, the telco replied wrong: https://twitter.com/koodo/status/267993428418256897
  188. # [16:49] <@hub> marcoz: probably because they have never hard about accessibility in that department
  189. # [16:50] <@hub> marcoz: yep, semantics. Like two column text where they do line 1 of column 1 followed by line 1 of column 2
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  191. # [16:53] <@marcoz> hub: I just replied. They did the typical mistake: "availability" instead of "accessibility". Some people have a tendency to mistake the first for the second.
  192. # [16:53] <@hub> marcoz: :-) thanks
  193. # [16:59] <@hub> our a11y implementation for PDF.js is completely based on the canvas?
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  202. # [17:53] <@marcoz> eeejay: Hi! I'm just wiping up something to improve speaking of unordered and ordered lists. I want to reduce verbosity and give better context.
  203. # [17:53] <@marcoz> eeejay: I'm shortening the utterance for listitem. On the first item, it'll say something like "first item", followed by the name, on the last item "last item" plus the name respectively. On all other items, it'll simply speak the name.
  204. # [17:55] <@marcoz> eeejay: I also want to indicate the list role specifically. Like "list with x items", so users know when they transition from one list to the next. So my plan is to add a list role utterance that speaks the list and the number of items. Will our logic automatically handle the transition in the parent chain, or will I have to do something else to make that work?
  205. # [18:00] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com granted feedback for attachment 680606 on bug 801356.
  206. # [18:00] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=801356 nor, --, ---, joey.blacksmith, NEW, LeafAccessible needs to override Append/InsertChild
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  208. # [18:06] <@tbsaunde> marcoz: have time to look at bug 809338 yet?
  209. # [18:06] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=809338 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, make HTML select hierarchical
  210. # [18:07] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
  211. # [18:12] <@marcoz> tbsaunde: Commented.
  212. # [18:15] * @marcoz is off for the evening. eeejay, if my assumptions are wrong, could you shoot me an e-mail? There is no bug yet for what I'm working on. :)
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  217. # [18:22] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com granted review for attachment 680511 on bug 810554.
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  219. # [18:22] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=810554 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, Intermittent TEST-UNEXPECTED-FAIL | states/test_link.html | Test timed out followed by states/test_p
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  228. # [20:27] <@firebot> joey.blacksmith@gmail.com requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 680722 on bug 801356.
  229. # [20:27] <@firebot> joey.blacksmith@gmail.com requested feedback from trev.saunders@gma il.com for attachment 680722 on bug 801356.
  230. # [20:27] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=801356 nor, --, ---, joey.blacksmith, NEW, LeafAccessible needs to override Append/InsertChild
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  238. # [21:40] <@davidb> eeejay: "ByteArray having a view and neutering" ?
  239. # [21:41] <@eeejay> davidb, yeah :D
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  243. # [21:42] <@davidb> well hopefully khuey knows what that means
  244. # [21:42] * @davidb sure doesn't
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The end :)