/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2012-11-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Nov 28 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
  3. # [00:13] <@firebot> continuation@gmail.com requested review from bugs@pettay.fi for attachment 685366 on bug 815397.
  4. # [00:13] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=815397 nor, --, ---, continuation, NEW, Update Accessibility cycle collector traverse/unlink definitions
  5. # [00:18] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 815837 filed by continuation@gmail.com.
  6. # [00:18] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=815837 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Investigate if DocAccessible::mDependentIDsHash needs to be Traversed by the cycle collector
  7. # [00:23] <@firebot> bugs@pettay.fi granted review for attachment 685366 on bug 815397.
  8. # [00:23] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=815397 nor, --, ---, continuation, NEW, Update Accessibility cycle collector traverse/unlink definitions
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  14. # [01:24] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Resolution on bug 767756 from --- to FIXED.
  15. # [01:24] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 767756 from ASSIGNED to RESOLVED.
  16. # [01:24] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 767756 from --- to mozilla20.
  17. # [01:25] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=767756 nor, --, mozilla20, surkov.alexander, RESO FIXED, try implementing ISimpleDOMNode with a tear off
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  20. # [01:55] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com changed the Assignee on bug 814569 from nobody@mozilla.org to trev.saunders@gmail.com.
  21. # [01:55] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=814569 nor, --, ---, trev.saunders, NEW, get rid nsAccessNode and nsAccessNodeWrap
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  26. # [02:51] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested needinfo from marco.zehe@google mail.com on bug 814569.
  27. # [02:51] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=814569 nor, --, ---, trev.saunders, NEW, get rid nsAccessNode and nsAccessNodeWrap
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  63. # [09:42] <@firebot> marco.zehe@googlemail.com cancelled needinfo?(marco.zehe@google mail.com) on bug 814569.
  64. # [09:42] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=814569 nor, --, ---, trev.saunders, NEW, get rid nsAccessNode and nsAccessNodeWrap
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  77. # [11:33] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 816011 filed by scoobidiver@netcourrier.com.
  78. # [11:33] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=816011 cri, --, ---, nobody, NEW, crash in mozilla::a11y::nsAccessNodeWrap::scrollTo
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  99. # [14:59] <@firebot> marco.zehe@googlemail.com set status-firefox18 to verified on bug 812480.
  100. # [14:59] <@firebot> marco.zehe@googlemail.com set status-firefox19 to verified on bug 812480.
  101. # [14:59] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812480 nor, --, mozilla20, eitan, VERI FIXED, [AccessFu] Jelly Bean 4.2: TalkBack announces that a page finished loading only after one touches th
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  109. # [15:18] <@marcoz> Heyo davidb!
  110. # [15:19] <@davidb> heyo!
  111. # [15:19] <@davidb> was just back channeling with poor steve
  112. # [15:19] <@davidb> sigh
  113. # [15:19] <@marcoz> davidb: So, what happened with that <main> element discussion? Seems like some of our ppl put a full stop to the effort.
  114. # [15:20] <@davidb> as far as i can tell, it was asked that the discussion be moved off of the webkit thread and onto the whatwg list
  115. # [15:20] <@marcoz> davidb: Yeah I wasn't involved in that discussion at all, so didn't really know what to say.
  116. # [15:20] <@davidb> i think there are some mozillians that don't think <main> has reached the high bar for adding new elements
  117. # [15:21] <@davidb> i was involved briefly yesterday and i said i am not against main and that it would help rid us of skip links
  118. # [15:22] <@marcoz> Agreed! Putting this on WHATWG where Master Hixon is against it anyway seemed like a rather questionable request...
  119. # [15:23] <@marcoz> (careful, getting bitchy)
  120. # [15:23] <@davidb> yeah it is a bad situation
  121. # [15:23] <@davidb> marcoz: anyways I think my input roughly made it here http://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2012-November/022997.html
  122. # [15:24] <@davidb> I would change 'but' to 'and'
  123. # [15:26] * @marcoz frowns.
  124. # [15:26] <@davidb> marcoz: I don't recall you having a strong opinion in this channel when we discussed with Steve a while back… but not sure.
  125. # [15:27] <@marcoz> TBH, I'm once again so glad that I stood my ground every time I was asked to become involved in these standards groups and always said no.
  126. # [15:27] <@davidb> anyways… the larger problem is the polarization and cognitive dissonance
  127. # [15:27] <@marcoz> I find it useful. I am always for replacing the need for ARIA roles, be it landmark or not, with native markup.
  128. # [15:28] <@davidb> yeah ARIA should be unecessary.
  129. # [15:28] <@davidb> I think <main> can have curb cut advantages too.
  130. # [15:28] <@davidb> i guess i should get in on the whatwg list more
  131. # [15:28] <@marcoz> Oh yeah, polarisation is the biggest issue here, and people like Steve who take the initiative often get slapped down like this by "old rabbits" who are very set in their ways.
  132. # [15:29] <@davidb> we have to somehow change that perception
  133. # [15:29] <@davidb> i know it seems that way but it is not useful framing
  134. # [15:30] <@marcoz> I don't get this mess with the WHATWG list and stuff anyway. I thought WHATWG was separated out from the W3C, doing its own little HTML playground that really does no longer have any bearing on W3C standardization.
  135. # [15:30] <@marcoz> Why in hell does everybody still care so much about this thing, and why don't these things get discussed in proper W3C channels instead?
  136. # [15:31] <@davidb> well yeah we don't want them discussed in webkit dev
  137. # [15:31] <@davidb> i am seduced by the same thing though… to forge ahead in gecko :)
  138. # [15:31] <@davidb> it is quite a crazy dance
  139. # [15:31] <@marcoz> Agreed on that point. But aren't there more proper places than WHATWG?
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  141. # [15:32] <@davidb> whatwg is where the browser devs are
  142. # [15:32] <@davidb> w3c, not as much
  143. # [15:33] <@marcoz> OK, I'm officially out. I don't get my head around this mumbo-jumbo which is the proper group or channel to push these things forward.
  144. # [15:33] <@davidb> i don't blame you… or steve actually… who will likely step back for a while
  145. # [15:34] <@marcoz> I don't blame him, either, after *that* experience.
  146. # [15:34] <@davidb> It repeats
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  148. # [15:35] <@marcoz> And it doesn't get any better. Talk about perception….Some people reaffirm it everytime.
  149. # [15:37] <@davidb> I keep the whole thing at a safe distance
  150. # [15:37] <@davidb> but I'm not sure I should
  151. # [15:38] <@davidb> (perversely, if we didn't have ARIA, i think <main> would have an easier time)
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  154. # [15:42] <@marcoz> Yeah. ARIA was an easy and well-implemented intermediary fix, but should definitely see replacement successively. I think progressing ARIA means making it smaller and smaller and moving parts of it out into proper HTML5 widgets and elements.
  155. # [15:43] <@davidb> Right
  156. # [15:43] <@marcoz> Newer versions should always have a "obsoleted, replaced by this and that element" section in its What's New docs.
  157. # [15:43] <@davidb> maybe
  158. # [15:44] <@davidb> We can never stop abuse of html
  159. # [15:44] <@marcoz> No, but we can make web devs' jobs easier by reducing ambiguity, and <main> is such a thing I believe.
  160. # [15:44] <@davidb> I think that's right.
  161. # [15:45] <@davidb> svg doesn't have main of course
  162. # [15:45] <@davidb> but i get you.
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  164. # [15:46] <@davidb> i feel like i have to go spend a couple of hours of reading to see if i have any new points to make
  165. # [15:46] <@davidb> but that's not happening today
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  168. # [15:51] <@davidb> marcoz: would you like me to bump your request for an unagi phone?
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  175. # [16:02] <@marcoz> davidb: If hub and eeejay think it makes sense since they've so far progressed that I have something useful to try, then yes. If we're still a bit off, then it may not be worth it.
  176. # [16:05] <@hub> marcoz: to be honest I haven't even installed what eeejay did
  177. # [16:05] <@hub> marcoz: and there is a regular bricking happening
  178. # [16:07] * @marcoz nods. Davidb, what do you think?
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  190. # [16:27] <@davidb> eeejay: you coming?
  191. # [16:27] <@davidb> !seen surkov
  192. # [16:27] <@firebot> surkov was last seen 25 hours, 55 minutes and 24 seconds ago, saying 'marcoz: yeah, I noticed that, author and reviewer :)' in #accessibility.
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  194. # [16:29] <@hub> eeejay: ping ping ping
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  199. # [17:06] <@davidb> tbsaunde: that meeting ate into our 1:1, but let's meet now?
  200. # [17:06] <@davidb> oh wait… bad calendar
  201. # [17:06] <@davidb> ignore me
  202. # [17:06] <@davidb> but i do want to talk about london
  203. # [17:08] * Joins: ehsan (ehsan@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
  204. # [17:09] <@tbsaunde> davidb: heh, I was confused for a sec there
  205. # [17:13] <@davidb> as was I!
  206. # [17:13] <@davidb> :)
  207. # [17:20] * Joins: Stevef (chatzilla@moz-CD0F47B5.cable.virginmedia.com)
  208. # [17:21] * @davidb lights a scented candle and puts on some yoga music for Stevef
  209. # [17:21] <Stevef> davidb: note that <main> was discussed extensively on WHATWG
  210. # [17:21] * Quits: icaaq1 (Adium@714E29CB.13DB46CE.3B93FF6D.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
  211. # [17:21] <@davidb> Stevef: i'd like to chime in but i wonder how much background reading i need to do first?
  212. # [17:22] <@davidb> Stevef: was the point that this might be good for mobile devices brought up?
  213. # [17:22] <Stevef> ther is no sense in chiming in all has been said, it comes down to hixie not agreeing
  214. # [17:22] <@davidb> i read maciej's summary of his thinking
  215. # [17:22] <@davidb> ok
  216. # [17:22] <@davidb> well
  217. # [17:22] * ChanServ sets mode: +o marcoz
  218. # [17:22] <Stevef> yes recently by silvia
  219. # [17:23] * Quits: Stevef (chatzilla@moz-CD0F47B5.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 16.0.2/20121024073032])
  220. # [17:23] <@davidb> what about the fact that ARIA is temporary… and is expected to be deprecated for real html?
  221. # [17:23] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@714E29CB.13DB46CE.3B93FF6D.IP)
  222. # [17:23] <@davidb> <section role="main"> is less likely to be used than <main>
  223. # [17:23] <@davidb> IMO
  224. # [17:23] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@714E29CB.13DB46CE.3B93FF6D.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
  225. # [17:23] <@davidb> and <section role="main"> is a stop-gap
  226. # [17:24] * Joins: Stevef (chatzilla@moz-CD0F47B5.cable.virginmedia.com)
  227. # [17:24] <@davidb> ah crap i'll re post
  228. # [17:24] <@davidb> davidb:
  229. # [17:24] <@davidb> what about the fact that ARIA is temporary… and is expected to be deprecated for real html?
  230. # [17:24] <@davidb> [11:27am] icaaq joined the chat room.
  231. # [17:24] <@davidb> [11:27am] davidb:
  232. # [17:24] <@davidb> <section role="main"> is less likely to be used than <main>
  233. # [17:24] <@davidb> [11:27am] davidb:
  234. # [17:24] <@davidb> IMO
  235. # [17:24] <@davidb> [11:27am] davidb:
  236. # [17:24] <@davidb> and <section role="main"> is a stop-gap
  237. # [17:24] <@davidb> Stevef: ^
  238. # [17:24] <@davidb> i imagine all that has been said as well?
  239. # [17:24] <Stevef> dave its all been said, FYI hixie thinks role=main is redundant
  240. # [17:25] <@davidb> it is. but role=main is supposed to go away one day.
  241. # [17:25] <@davidb> ideally
  242. # [17:25] <Stevef> as user agents can work out where main content is by heauristics
  243. # [17:25] <@davidb> but maybe that is a bad assumption
  244. # [17:26] <Stevef> if all other content is marked up correctly then what is left is the main content
  245. # [17:26] <Stevef> but I am not going to discuss it further, futility is its own reward
  246. # [17:27] <@davidb> ok
  247. # [17:27] <Stevef> its not about data use cases etc its about what hixie thinks and what the high priests of the browser world consider
  248. # [17:28] * @marcoz clenches teeth.
  249. # [17:29] <Stevef> as i said previoulsy it would be in the spec and no one would bat an eyelid if hixie decided to make it so and all mozillians would be nodding
  250. # [17:29] <Stevef> but enough venom see you later
  251. # [17:29] * Quits: Stevef (chatzilla@moz-CD0F47B5.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 16.0.2/20121024073032])
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  253. # [17:30] <@marcoz> He's deeply disappointed, and rightfully so.
  254. # [17:35] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@11D66D1A.7DCD925.CE255B90.IP)
  255. # [17:36] <@davidb> a witch's brew of cognitive dissonance, bad blood, and herd mentality.
  256. # [17:36] <@davidb> perhaps
  257. # [17:37] * Joins: Justin_o (Justin_o@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
  258. # [17:40] <@davidb> marcoz, eeejay what are your csun topics?
  259. # [17:40] <@davidb> i mean the wording (i know in general)
  260. # [17:51] <@marcoz> davidb: Firefox OS, an accessible open web mobile platform
  261. # [17:51] <@davidb> thanks
  262. # [17:52] <@marcoz> davidb: Sorry, "Mozilla Firefox OS - mobile open web platform"
  263. # [17:52] <@davidb> ok
  264. # [17:54] * @marcoz is off for the evening. See you tomorrow!
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  268. # [18:13] <@hub> eeejay: have you tried F18 beta?
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  282. # [18:47] <Hixie> davidb: HTML already has something for getting rid of skip links (<nav>, <aside>) that does a better job than <main> would, that's the main reason it's not in HTML
  283. # [18:48] <Hixie> as to which list to post on and which spec matters... that's basically up to you. if you think the whatwg spec is what matters, the whatwg list, otherwise, the w3c list.
  284. # [18:49] * Joins: fxa90id (fxa90id@moz-1A605976.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl)
  285. # [18:49] <Hixie> if you want to read up on the reasons <main> isn't in the WHATWG HTML spec in more detail, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2012Nov/0373.html is my most recent e-mail, and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2012Nov/0213.html my most recent long one
  286. # [18:50] <Hixie> if there's anything i've overlooked or that you think i misunderstand, i'm happy to hear you out :-)
  287. # [18:50] <Hixie> i've definitely been known to be wrong and to change my mind :-)
  288. # [18:50] <fxa90id> hi
  289. # [18:51] <@tbsaunde> fxa90id: hi
  290. # [18:51] <fxa90id> how its going tbsaunde ?
  291. # [18:51] <fxa90id> ;)
  292. # [18:52] <@tbsaunde> fxa90id: fine
  293. # [18:52] <fxa90id> its sunny day there ?
  294. # [18:53] <@tbsaunde> not really I think but I haven't been out much
  295. # [18:53] <@tbsaunde> did you actaully want something?
  296. # [18:54] <fxa90id> Im not sure how to make CaretManager unique instance
  297. # [18:54] * Quits: icaaq1 (Adium@61EB5944.7DCD925.CE255B90.IP) (Ping timeout)
  298. # [18:55] <@tbsaunde> fxa90id: what do you mean by that
  299. # [18:55] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@FE93AF2B.7DCD925.CE255B90.IP)
  300. # [18:55] <fxa90id> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678477
  301. # [18:55] <@firebot> Bug 678477 nor, --, ---, michaljev, ASSI, change ownership of nsCaretAccessible
  302. # [18:56] <fxa90id> I probably should talk about that with surkov
  303. # [18:56] <@tbsaunde> whoever is fine
  304. # [18:57] <fxa90id> I was looking on DocManager and FocusManager
  305. # [18:57] <fxa90id> but I'll try to figure out it alone :)
  306. # [18:57] <@davidb> Hixie: thanks.
  307. # [18:58] * davidb is now known as davidb|mtg
  308. # [18:59] * Joins: drexler (chatzilla@moz-AD4BBA18.hsd1.vt.comcast.net)
  309. # [18:59] <@davidb|mtg> nick davidb
  310. # [18:59] * davidb|mtg is now known as davidb
  311. # [18:59] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
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  316. # [19:09] <Hixie> davidb: np. Please don't hesitate to ping me here if you want to explain why i'm wrong
  317. # [19:10] <@davidb> Hixie: ok thanks, will do.
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  321. # [19:27] <@firebot> edmorley.bugzilla@edmorley.co.uk changed the Resolution on bug 779520 from --- to FIXED.
  322. # [19:27] <@firebot> edmorley.bugzilla@edmorley.co.uk changed the Status on bug 779520 from ASSIGNED to RESOLVED.
  323. # [19:27] <@firebot> edmorley.bugzilla@edmorley.co.uk changed the Target Milestone on bug 779520 from --- to mozilla20.
  324. # [19:27] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=779520 enh, --, mozilla20, michaljev, RESO FIXED, Merge Accessible::Init into constructor
  325. # [19:29] <@tbsaunde> Hixie: fwiw I'm fairly dubious of <main>
  326. # [19:34] * Joins: margle (margle@moz-1750CB60.dsl.mweb.co.za)
  327. # [19:40] <Hixie> tbsaunde: good to know i'm not alone :-)
  328. # [19:40] * Quits: margle (margle@moz-1750CB60.dsl.mweb.co.za) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
  329. # [19:41] <Hixie> i mean, i don't think it would be the end of the world or anything, i just think it wouldn't solve the use case it sets out to solve, and would just end up being cruft in the spec that we can't get rid of
  330. # [19:45] <@tbsaunde> Hixie: yeah, causion is certainly warrented when considering new elements
  331. # [19:52] * @davidb almost done sec meeting
  332. # [19:58] <@davidb> hub: how's now?
  333. # [20:01] <@hub> davidb: good
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  340. # [20:53] <fxa90id> NOOO !
  341. # [20:53] <fxa90id> my bug ;( :d
  342. # [20:54] <@davidb> fxa90id: ?
  343. # [20:54] <fxa90id> mozilla20, michaljev, RESO FIXED, Merge Accessible::Init into constructo
  344. # [20:54] <fxa90id> tbsaunde fixed it
  345. # [20:56] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  346. # [21:00] <fxa90id> anyway hi davidb :)
  347. # [21:08] <@davidb> heyo
  348. # [21:08] <@davidb> well, ok i don't think i have anything to add to the <main> argument
  349. # [21:13] <@firebot> ted@mielczarek.org denied review for attachment 685560 on bug 815581.
  350. # [21:13] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=815581 nor, --, ---, jacek, NEW, Allow compiling accessibility on mingw
  351. # [21:14] <fxa90id> Im wondering If I could use clang to compile firefox
  352. # [21:17] <@hub> fxa90id: we do use it on Mac, and on Linux
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  355. # [21:18] <fxa90id> oh great :)
  356. # [21:18] <fxa90id> thanks a lot hub
  357. # [21:18] <fxa90id> but Im on windows ;p
  358. # [21:18] <fxa90id> :(
  359. # [21:19] <@tbsaunde> clang on windows haha have fun
  360. # [21:24] <@hub> s/clang on //g ;-)
  361. # [21:28] <fxa90id> :D
  362. # [21:28] <fxa90id> oh you
  363. # [21:28] <fxa90id> whats so funy
  364. # [21:28] <fxa90id> funny
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  369. # [21:43] <fxa90id> If so Im starting new vritual machine for linux to compile with clang :)
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  379. # [22:35] <@firebot> bugzilla@mversen.de changed the Resolution on bug 647597 from --- to WORKSFORME.
  380. # [22:35] <@firebot> bugzilla@mversen.de changed the Status on bug 647597 from UNCONFIRMED to RESOLVED.
  381. # [22:35] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=647597 nor, --, ---, nobody, RESO WORKSFORME, Some tab switching hotkeys stop working (Ctrl+PgUp, Ctrl+PgDn)
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  387. # [23:39] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com granted review for attachment 685611 on bug 804461.
  388. # [23:40] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=804461 nor, --, mozilla19, surkov.alexander, REOP, build the context dependent tree
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  392. # Session Close: Thu Nov 29 00:00:00 2012

The end :)