/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2012-11-28 / end
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- # Session Start: Wed Nov 28 00:00:00 2012
- # Session Ident: #accessibility
- # [00:13] <@firebot> continuation@gmail.com requested review from bugs@pettay.fi for attachment 685366 on bug 815397.
- # [00:13] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=815397 nor, --, ---, continuation, NEW, Update Accessibility cycle collector traverse/unlink definitions
- # [00:18] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 815837 filed by continuation@gmail.com.
- # [00:18] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=815837 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Investigate if DocAccessible::mDependentIDsHash needs to be Traversed by the cycle collector
- # [00:23] <@firebot> bugs@pettay.fi granted review for attachment 685366 on bug 815397.
- # [00:23] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=815397 nor, --, ---, continuation, NEW, Update Accessibility cycle collector traverse/unlink definitions
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- # [01:24] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Resolution on bug 767756 from --- to FIXED.
- # [01:24] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 767756 from ASSIGNED to RESOLVED.
- # [01:24] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 767756 from --- to mozilla20.
- # [01:25] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=767756 nor, --, mozilla20, surkov.alexander, RESO FIXED, try implementing ISimpleDOMNode with a tear off
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- # [01:55] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com changed the Assignee on bug 814569 from nobody@mozilla.org to trev.saunders@gmail.com.
- # [01:55] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=814569 nor, --, ---, trev.saunders, NEW, get rid nsAccessNode and nsAccessNodeWrap
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- # [02:51] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested needinfo from marco.zehe@google mail.com on bug 814569.
- # [02:51] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=814569 nor, --, ---, trev.saunders, NEW, get rid nsAccessNode and nsAccessNodeWrap
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- # [09:42] <@firebot> marco.zehe@googlemail.com cancelled needinfo?(marco.zehe@google mail.com) on bug 814569.
- # [09:42] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=814569 nor, --, ---, trev.saunders, NEW, get rid nsAccessNode and nsAccessNodeWrap
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- # [11:33] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 816011 filed by scoobidiver@netcourrier.com.
- # [11:33] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=816011 cri, --, ---, nobody, NEW, crash in mozilla::a11y::nsAccessNodeWrap::scrollTo
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- # [14:59] <@firebot> marco.zehe@googlemail.com set status-firefox18 to verified on bug 812480.
- # [14:59] <@firebot> marco.zehe@googlemail.com set status-firefox19 to verified on bug 812480.
- # [14:59] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=812480 nor, --, mozilla20, eitan, VERI FIXED, [AccessFu] Jelly Bean 4.2: TalkBack announces that a page finished loading only after one touches th
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- # [15:18] <@marcoz> Heyo davidb!
- # [15:19] <@davidb> heyo!
- # [15:19] <@davidb> was just back channeling with poor steve
- # [15:19] <@davidb> sigh
- # [15:19] <@marcoz> davidb: So, what happened with that <main> element discussion? Seems like some of our ppl put a full stop to the effort.
- # [15:20] <@davidb> as far as i can tell, it was asked that the discussion be moved off of the webkit thread and onto the whatwg list
- # [15:20] <@marcoz> davidb: Yeah I wasn't involved in that discussion at all, so didn't really know what to say.
- # [15:20] <@davidb> i think there are some mozillians that don't think <main> has reached the high bar for adding new elements
- # [15:21] <@davidb> i was involved briefly yesterday and i said i am not against main and that it would help rid us of skip links
- # [15:22] <@marcoz> Agreed! Putting this on WHATWG where Master Hixon is against it anyway seemed like a rather questionable request...
- # [15:23] <@marcoz> (careful, getting bitchy)
- # [15:23] <@davidb> yeah it is a bad situation
- # [15:23] <@davidb> marcoz: anyways I think my input roughly made it here http://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2012-November/022997.html
- # [15:24] <@davidb> I would change 'but' to 'and'
- # [15:26] * @marcoz frowns.
- # [15:26] <@davidb> marcoz: I don't recall you having a strong opinion in this channel when we discussed with Steve a while back… but not sure.
- # [15:27] <@marcoz> TBH, I'm once again so glad that I stood my ground every time I was asked to become involved in these standards groups and always said no.
- # [15:27] <@davidb> anyways… the larger problem is the polarization and cognitive dissonance
- # [15:27] <@marcoz> I find it useful. I am always for replacing the need for ARIA roles, be it landmark or not, with native markup.
- # [15:28] <@davidb> yeah ARIA should be unecessary.
- # [15:28] <@davidb> I think <main> can have curb cut advantages too.
- # [15:28] <@davidb> i guess i should get in on the whatwg list more
- # [15:28] <@marcoz> Oh yeah, polarisation is the biggest issue here, and people like Steve who take the initiative often get slapped down like this by "old rabbits" who are very set in their ways.
- # [15:29] <@davidb> we have to somehow change that perception
- # [15:29] <@davidb> i know it seems that way but it is not useful framing
- # [15:30] <@marcoz> I don't get this mess with the WHATWG list and stuff anyway. I thought WHATWG was separated out from the W3C, doing its own little HTML playground that really does no longer have any bearing on W3C standardization.
- # [15:30] <@marcoz> Why in hell does everybody still care so much about this thing, and why don't these things get discussed in proper W3C channels instead?
- # [15:31] <@davidb> well yeah we don't want them discussed in webkit dev
- # [15:31] <@davidb> i am seduced by the same thing though… to forge ahead in gecko :)
- # [15:31] <@davidb> it is quite a crazy dance
- # [15:31] <@marcoz> Agreed on that point. But aren't there more proper places than WHATWG?
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- # [15:32] <@davidb> whatwg is where the browser devs are
- # [15:32] <@davidb> w3c, not as much
- # [15:33] <@marcoz> OK, I'm officially out. I don't get my head around this mumbo-jumbo which is the proper group or channel to push these things forward.
- # [15:33] <@davidb> i don't blame you… or steve actually… who will likely step back for a while
- # [15:34] <@marcoz> I don't blame him, either, after *that* experience.
- # [15:34] <@davidb> It repeats
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- # [15:35] <@marcoz> And it doesn't get any better. Talk about perception….Some people reaffirm it everytime.
- # [15:37] <@davidb> I keep the whole thing at a safe distance
- # [15:37] <@davidb> but I'm not sure I should
- # [15:38] <@davidb> (perversely, if we didn't have ARIA, i think <main> would have an easier time)
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- # [15:42] <@marcoz> Yeah. ARIA was an easy and well-implemented intermediary fix, but should definitely see replacement successively. I think progressing ARIA means making it smaller and smaller and moving parts of it out into proper HTML5 widgets and elements.
- # [15:43] <@davidb> Right
- # [15:43] <@marcoz> Newer versions should always have a "obsoleted, replaced by this and that element" section in its What's New docs.
- # [15:43] <@davidb> maybe
- # [15:44] <@davidb> We can never stop abuse of html
- # [15:44] <@marcoz> No, but we can make web devs' jobs easier by reducing ambiguity, and <main> is such a thing I believe.
- # [15:44] <@davidb> I think that's right.
- # [15:45] <@davidb> svg doesn't have main of course
- # [15:45] <@davidb> but i get you.
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- # [15:46] <@davidb> i feel like i have to go spend a couple of hours of reading to see if i have any new points to make
- # [15:46] <@davidb> but that's not happening today
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- # [15:51] <@davidb> marcoz: would you like me to bump your request for an unagi phone?
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- # [16:02] <@marcoz> davidb: If hub and eeejay think it makes sense since they've so far progressed that I have something useful to try, then yes. If we're still a bit off, then it may not be worth it.
- # [16:05] <@hub> marcoz: to be honest I haven't even installed what eeejay did
- # [16:05] <@hub> marcoz: and there is a regular bricking happening
- # [16:07] * @marcoz nods. Davidb, what do you think?
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- # [16:27] <@davidb> eeejay: you coming?
- # [16:27] <@davidb> !seen surkov
- # [16:27] <@firebot> surkov was last seen 25 hours, 55 minutes and 24 seconds ago, saying 'marcoz: yeah, I noticed that, author and reviewer :)' in #accessibility.
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- # [16:29] <@hub> eeejay: ping ping ping
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- # [17:06] <@davidb> tbsaunde: that meeting ate into our 1:1, but let's meet now?
- # [17:06] <@davidb> oh wait… bad calendar
- # [17:06] <@davidb> ignore me
- # [17:06] <@davidb> but i do want to talk about london
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- # [17:09] <@tbsaunde> davidb: heh, I was confused for a sec there
- # [17:13] <@davidb> as was I!
- # [17:13] <@davidb> :)
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- # [17:21] * @davidb lights a scented candle and puts on some yoga music for Stevef
- # [17:21] <Stevef> davidb: note that <main> was discussed extensively on WHATWG
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- # [17:21] <@davidb> Stevef: i'd like to chime in but i wonder how much background reading i need to do first?
- # [17:22] <@davidb> Stevef: was the point that this might be good for mobile devices brought up?
- # [17:22] <Stevef> ther is no sense in chiming in all has been said, it comes down to hixie not agreeing
- # [17:22] <@davidb> i read maciej's summary of his thinking
- # [17:22] <@davidb> ok
- # [17:22] <@davidb> well
- # [17:22] * ChanServ sets mode: +o marcoz
- # [17:22] <Stevef> yes recently by silvia
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- # [17:23] <@davidb> what about the fact that ARIA is temporary… and is expected to be deprecated for real html?
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- # [17:23] <@davidb> <section role="main"> is less likely to be used than <main>
- # [17:23] <@davidb> IMO
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- # [17:23] <@davidb> and <section role="main"> is a stop-gap
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- # [17:24] <@davidb> ah crap i'll re post
- # [17:24] <@davidb> davidb:
- # [17:24] <@davidb> what about the fact that ARIA is temporary… and is expected to be deprecated for real html?
- # [17:24] <@davidb> [11:27am] icaaq joined the chat room.
- # [17:24] <@davidb> [11:27am] davidb:
- # [17:24] <@davidb> <section role="main"> is less likely to be used than <main>
- # [17:24] <@davidb> [11:27am] davidb:
- # [17:24] <@davidb> IMO
- # [17:24] <@davidb> [11:27am] davidb:
- # [17:24] <@davidb> and <section role="main"> is a stop-gap
- # [17:24] <@davidb> Stevef: ^
- # [17:24] <@davidb> i imagine all that has been said as well?
- # [17:24] <Stevef> dave its all been said, FYI hixie thinks role=main is redundant
- # [17:25] <@davidb> it is. but role=main is supposed to go away one day.
- # [17:25] <@davidb> ideally
- # [17:25] <Stevef> as user agents can work out where main content is by heauristics
- # [17:25] <@davidb> but maybe that is a bad assumption
- # [17:26] <Stevef> if all other content is marked up correctly then what is left is the main content
- # [17:26] <Stevef> but I am not going to discuss it further, futility is its own reward
- # [17:27] <@davidb> ok
- # [17:27] <Stevef> its not about data use cases etc its about what hixie thinks and what the high priests of the browser world consider
- # [17:28] * @marcoz clenches teeth.
- # [17:29] <Stevef> as i said previoulsy it would be in the spec and no one would bat an eyelid if hixie decided to make it so and all mozillians would be nodding
- # [17:29] <Stevef> but enough venom see you later
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- # [17:30] <@marcoz> He's deeply disappointed, and rightfully so.
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- # [17:36] <@davidb> a witch's brew of cognitive dissonance, bad blood, and herd mentality.
- # [17:36] <@davidb> perhaps
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- # [17:40] <@davidb> marcoz, eeejay what are your csun topics?
- # [17:40] <@davidb> i mean the wording (i know in general)
- # [17:51] <@marcoz> davidb: Firefox OS, an accessible open web mobile platform
- # [17:51] <@davidb> thanks
- # [17:52] <@marcoz> davidb: Sorry, "Mozilla Firefox OS - mobile open web platform"
- # [17:52] <@davidb> ok
- # [17:54] * @marcoz is off for the evening. See you tomorrow!
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- # [18:13] <@hub> eeejay: have you tried F18 beta?
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- # [18:47] <Hixie> davidb: HTML already has something for getting rid of skip links (<nav>, <aside>) that does a better job than <main> would, that's the main reason it's not in HTML
- # [18:48] <Hixie> as to which list to post on and which spec matters... that's basically up to you. if you think the whatwg spec is what matters, the whatwg list, otherwise, the w3c list.
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- # [18:49] <Hixie> if you want to read up on the reasons <main> isn't in the WHATWG HTML spec in more detail, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2012Nov/0373.html is my most recent e-mail, and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2012Nov/0213.html my most recent long one
- # [18:50] <Hixie> if there's anything i've overlooked or that you think i misunderstand, i'm happy to hear you out :-)
- # [18:50] <Hixie> i've definitely been known to be wrong and to change my mind :-)
- # [18:50] <fxa90id> hi
- # [18:51] <@tbsaunde> fxa90id: hi
- # [18:51] <fxa90id> how its going tbsaunde ?
- # [18:51] <fxa90id> ;)
- # [18:52] <@tbsaunde> fxa90id: fine
- # [18:52] <fxa90id> its sunny day there ?
- # [18:53] <@tbsaunde> not really I think but I haven't been out much
- # [18:53] <@tbsaunde> did you actaully want something?
- # [18:54] <fxa90id> Im not sure how to make CaretManager unique instance
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- # [18:55] <@tbsaunde> fxa90id: what do you mean by that
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- # [18:55] <fxa90id> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678477
- # [18:55] <@firebot> Bug 678477 nor, --, ---, michaljev, ASSI, change ownership of nsCaretAccessible
- # [18:56] <fxa90id> I probably should talk about that with surkov
- # [18:56] <@tbsaunde> whoever is fine
- # [18:57] <fxa90id> I was looking on DocManager and FocusManager
- # [18:57] <fxa90id> but I'll try to figure out it alone :)
- # [18:57] <@davidb> Hixie: thanks.
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- # [18:59] <@davidb|mtg> nick davidb
- # [18:59] * davidb|mtg is now known as davidb
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- # [19:09] <Hixie> davidb: np. Please don't hesitate to ping me here if you want to explain why i'm wrong
- # [19:10] <@davidb> Hixie: ok thanks, will do.
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- # [19:27] <@firebot> edmorley.bugzilla@edmorley.co.uk changed the Resolution on bug 779520 from --- to FIXED.
- # [19:27] <@firebot> edmorley.bugzilla@edmorley.co.uk changed the Status on bug 779520 from ASSIGNED to RESOLVED.
- # [19:27] <@firebot> edmorley.bugzilla@edmorley.co.uk changed the Target Milestone on bug 779520 from --- to mozilla20.
- # [19:27] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=779520 enh, --, mozilla20, michaljev, RESO FIXED, Merge Accessible::Init into constructor
- # [19:29] <@tbsaunde> Hixie: fwiw I'm fairly dubious of <main>
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- # [19:40] <Hixie> tbsaunde: good to know i'm not alone :-)
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- # [19:41] <Hixie> i mean, i don't think it would be the end of the world or anything, i just think it wouldn't solve the use case it sets out to solve, and would just end up being cruft in the spec that we can't get rid of
- # [19:45] <@tbsaunde> Hixie: yeah, causion is certainly warrented when considering new elements
- # [19:52] * @davidb almost done sec meeting
- # [19:58] <@davidb> hub: how's now?
- # [20:01] <@hub> davidb: good
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- # [20:53] <fxa90id> NOOO !
- # [20:53] <fxa90id> my bug ;( :d
- # [20:54] <@davidb> fxa90id: ?
- # [20:54] <fxa90id> mozilla20, michaljev, RESO FIXED, Merge Accessible::Init into constructo
- # [20:54] <fxa90id> tbsaunde fixed it
- # [20:56] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
- # [21:00] <fxa90id> anyway hi davidb :)
- # [21:08] <@davidb> heyo
- # [21:08] <@davidb> well, ok i don't think i have anything to add to the <main> argument
- # [21:13] <@firebot> ted@mielczarek.org denied review for attachment 685560 on bug 815581.
- # [21:13] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=815581 nor, --, ---, jacek, NEW, Allow compiling accessibility on mingw
- # [21:14] <fxa90id> Im wondering If I could use clang to compile firefox
- # [21:17] <@hub> fxa90id: we do use it on Mac, and on Linux
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- # [21:18] <fxa90id> oh great :)
- # [21:18] <fxa90id> thanks a lot hub
- # [21:18] <fxa90id> but Im on windows ;p
- # [21:18] <fxa90id> :(
- # [21:19] <@tbsaunde> clang on windows haha have fun
- # [21:24] <@hub> s/clang on //g ;-)
- # [21:28] <fxa90id> :D
- # [21:28] <fxa90id> oh you
- # [21:28] <fxa90id> whats so funy
- # [21:28] <fxa90id> funny
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- # [21:43] <fxa90id> If so Im starting new vritual machine for linux to compile with clang :)
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- # [22:35] <@firebot> bugzilla@mversen.de changed the Resolution on bug 647597 from --- to WORKSFORME.
- # [22:35] <@firebot> bugzilla@mversen.de changed the Status on bug 647597 from UNCONFIRMED to RESOLVED.
- # [22:35] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=647597 nor, --, ---, nobody, RESO WORKSFORME, Some tab switching hotkeys stop working (Ctrl+PgUp, Ctrl+PgDn)
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- # [23:39] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com granted review for attachment 685611 on bug 804461.
- # [23:40] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=804461 nor, --, mozilla19, surkov.alexander, REOP, build the context dependent tree
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- # Session Close: Thu Nov 29 00:00:00 2012
The end :)