/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2013-01-16 / end
Options:
- # Session Start: Wed Jan 16 00:00:00 2013
- # Session Ident: #accessibility
- # [00:01] * Quits: @jprmc (jprmc@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Ping timeout)
- # [00:07] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
- # [00:15] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@E4295265.F695A43D.79933D60.IP)
- # [00:17] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@E4295265.F695A43D.79933D60.IP) (Ping timeout)
- # [00:29] * Quits: @surkov (surkov@19A7BFBF.CE67D555.26B1D6E2.IP) (Ping timeout)
- # [00:35] * Joins: jprmc (jprmc@89B9DC88.AEC9E1D6.DA78B690.IP)
- # [00:35] * ChanServ sets mode: +o jprmc
- # [00:38] * Quits: habber (habber@moz-41A7FBC7.sw.biz.rr.com) (Quit: habber)
- # [01:15] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@E4295265.F695A43D.79933D60.IP)
- # [01:17] * Quits: satdav (satdav@moz-2B0F19ED.cable.virginmedia.com) (Connection reset by peer)
- # [01:17] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@E4295265.F695A43D.79933D60.IP) (Ping timeout)
- # [01:21] * Quits: @jprmc (jprmc@89B9DC88.AEC9E1D6.DA78B690.IP) (Ping timeout)
- # [02:02] * Joins: fxa90id_ (fxa90id@moz-ABF08BFA.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl)
- # [02:02] * Quits: fxa90id (fxa90id@moz-494EA5E0.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl) (Ping timeout)
- # [02:16] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@E4295265.F695A43D.79933D60.IP)
- # [02:18] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@E4295265.F695A43D.79933D60.IP) (Ping timeout)
- # [02:19] * Quits: AcidBuddha (AcidBuddha@moz-56E7B0E6.superkabel.de) (Ping timeout)
- # [02:20] * Joins: jprmc (jprmc@moz-542588AA.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
- # [02:20] * ChanServ sets mode: +o jprmc
- # [02:39] * Joins: habber (habber@moz-701C4EEA.sw.biz.rr.com)
- # [03:17] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@E4295265.F695A43D.79933D60.IP)
- # [03:18] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@E4295265.F695A43D.79933D60.IP) (Ping timeout)
- # [03:20] * Joins: surkov (surkov@201E6B44.CE67D555.26B1D6E2.IP)
- # [03:20] * ChanServ sets mode: +o surkov
- # [03:40] * Quits: scott_gonzalez (scott_gonz@moz-91C81A39.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net) (Quit: scott_gonzalez)
- # [03:41] * Quits: @surkov (surkov@201E6B44.CE67D555.26B1D6E2.IP) (Quit: surkov)
- # [04:17] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@E4295265.F695A43D.79933D60.IP)
- # [04:22] * Quits: habber (habber@moz-701C4EEA.sw.biz.rr.com) (Quit: habber)
- # [04:58] * Quits: richardschwerdtfeger (richardsch@moz-741065CC.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: richardschwerdtfeger)
- # [05:32] * Joins: surkov (surkov@99A26FAC.CE67D555.26B1D6E2.IP)
- # [05:32] * ChanServ sets mode: +o surkov
- # [06:14] * Quits: @firebot (firebot@moz-F8C1AF63.carolina.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout)
- # [06:16] * Quits: peteb-away (ptbrunet@moz-E9B02845.austin.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout)
- # [06:17] * Joins: firebot (firebot@moz-F8C1AF63.carolina.res.rr.com)
- # [06:17] * ChanServ sets mode: +o firebot
- # [06:32] * Quits: gavin (gavin@moz-59682A1.dmz.scl3.mozilla.com) (Ping timeout)
- # [06:46] * Quits: tofumatt (tofumatt@moz-9995AABD.hosts.kicksass.ca) (Ping timeout)
- # [06:46] * Quits: ivan (ivan@moz-531C3EC9.members.linode.com) (Ping timeout)
- # [06:47] * Joins: ivan (ivan@moz-531C3EC9.members.linode.com)
- # [06:49] * Joins: tofumatt (tofumatt@moz-9995AABD.hosts.kicksass.ca)
- # [06:57] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@E4295265.F695A43D.79933D60.IP) (Ping timeout)
- # [07:20] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@E4295265.F695A43D.79933D60.IP)
- # [07:31] * Joins: gavin (gavin@moz-DB4A9C19.scl3.mozilla.com)
- # [07:40] * gavin is now known as gavin|away
- # [07:40] * Quits: @surkov (surkov@99A26FAC.CE67D555.26B1D6E2.IP) (Ping timeout)
- # [07:41] * Joins: Stevef (chatzilla@moz-CD0F47B5.cable.virginmedia.com)
- # [08:04] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@E4295265.F695A43D.79933D60.IP) (Quit: victorporof)
- # [08:14] * Quits: @jprmc (jprmc@moz-542588AA.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Connection reset by peer)
- # [08:15] * Joins: jprmc (jprmc@moz-542588AA.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
- # [08:15] * ChanServ sets mode: +o jprmc
- # [09:11] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@moz-200DC1CF.customers.ownit.se) (Quit: Leaving.)
- # [09:12] * Joins: surkov (surkov@FD1FC97.CE67D555.26B1D6E2.IP)
- # [09:12] * ChanServ sets mode: +o surkov
- # [09:20] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@804353A6.368C7786.6A4F8DA2.IP)
- # [09:22] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@714E29CB.13DB46CE.3B93FF6D.IP)
- # [09:33] * Joins: nhirata (anonymous@moz-F8747CC6.dsl.ovh.fr)
- # [09:42] * Joins: marcoz (marco.zehe@moz-E206FB66.dip.t-dialin.net)
- # [09:43] * ChanServ sets mode: +o marcoz
- # [10:03] * Quits: @surkov (surkov@FD1FC97.CE67D555.26B1D6E2.IP) (Ping timeout)
- # [10:08] * Joins: icaaq1 (Adium@714E29CB.13DB46CE.3B93FF6D.IP)
- # [10:08] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@714E29CB.13DB46CE.3B93FF6D.IP) (Ping timeout)
- # [10:16] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@714E29CB.13DB46CE.3B93FF6D.IP)
- # [10:16] * Quits: icaaq1 (Adium@714E29CB.13DB46CE.3B93FF6D.IP) (Ping timeout)
- # [10:46] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@804353A6.368C7786.6A4F8DA2.IP) (Quit: victorporof)
- # [11:17] * Quits: @marcoz (marco.zehe@moz-E206FB66.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
- # [11:17] <Stevef> marcoz: any known reason why the aside element gets its accessble name from the element content?
- # [11:17] <Stevef> accessible
- # [11:20] <Stevef> marcoz: the acc name is not derived from element content for other similar elements and is causing content to be announced twice
- # [11:28] * Joins: aleksandars (Thunderbir@moz-5AB0C6D6.dynamic.telemach.ba)
- # [11:51] * Joins: iscaro (iscaro@201569F1.C6AE27D5.B091F2.IP)
- # [12:53] * Joins: habber (habber@moz-701C4EEA.sw.biz.rr.com)
- # [12:54] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@804353A6.368C7786.6A4F8DA2.IP)
- # [12:54] * Quits: habber (habber@moz-701C4EEA.sw.biz.rr.com) (Quit: habber)
- # [13:00] * Joins: Justin_o (Justin_o@moz-859149B2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
- # [13:08] * Quits: aleksandars (Thunderbir@moz-5AB0C6D6.dynamic.telemach.ba) (Ping timeout)
- # [13:14] * Joins: aleksandars (Thunderbir@moz-5AB0C6D6.dynamic.telemach.ba)
- # [13:25] * Quits: Justin_o (Justin_o@moz-859149B2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Quit: Justin_o)
- # [13:25] * Quits: @jprmc (jprmc@moz-542588AA.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout)
- # [13:26] * Joins: Justin_o (Justin_o@moz-859149B2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
- # [13:36] <@hub> hi
- # [13:44] * Joins: scott_gonzalez (scott_gonz@moz-91C81A39.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net)
- # [14:04] * Joins: jprmc (jprmc@8788BD54.AEC9E1D6.DA78B690.IP)
- # [14:04] * ChanServ sets mode: +o jprmc
- # [14:12] * Joins: richardschwerdtfeger (richardsch@moz-741065CC.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net)
- # [14:27] * Joins: AcidBuddha (AcidBuddha@moz-56E7B0E6.superkabel.de)
- # [15:00] * Quits: @jprmc (jprmc@8788BD54.AEC9E1D6.DA78B690.IP) (Ping timeout)
- # [15:20] * Joins: peteb-away (ptbrunet@moz-E9B02845.austin.res.rr.com)
- # [15:20] * Joins: marcoz (marco.zehe@moz-E206FB66.dip.t-dialin.net)
- # [15:20] * ChanServ sets mode: +o marcoz
- # [15:24] <@marcoz> Hi all!
- # [15:26] * Joins: davidb (davidb@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
- # [15:26] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo davidb davidb
- # [15:28] * Joins: jprmc (jprmc@621DAA58.F7EBA23.C3C3A9D0.IP)
- # [15:28] * ChanServ sets mode: +o jprmc
- # [15:30] * Quits: aleksandars (Thunderbir@moz-5AB0C6D6.dynamic.telemach.ba) (Ping timeout)
- # [15:31] * Joins: aleksandars (Thunderbir@moz-5AB0C6D6.dynamic.telemach.ba)
- # [15:37] * Quits: @hub (hub@E639FEDB.F04051C4.DC1243F8.IP) (Input/output error)
- # [15:55] * Joins: jpr_ (jprmc@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
- # [15:55] * Quits: @jprmc (jprmc@621DAA58.F7EBA23.C3C3A9D0.IP) (Ping timeout)
- # [16:00] <Stevef> marcoz: hi, whats the support story for aria-hidden in firefox?
- # [16:01] * Joins: hub (hub@E639FEDB.F04051C4.DC1243F8.IP)
- # [16:01] * ChanServ sets mode: +o hub
- # [16:02] <@davidb> Stevef: we expose the whole tree but tell AT to ignore it via exposing the hidden attribute on the root
- # [16:02] <@davidb> In other words we leave the support to the AT.
- # [16:03] <@davidb> (Like it was originally intended to be used when aria-hidden was created)
- # [16:03] <Stevef> OK, thanks! confirms what I am finding,
- # [16:03] <Stevef> arai-hidden is a crock
- # [16:03] <Stevef> aria-hidden too!
- # [16:04] <@davidb> agreed on both
- # [16:04] <@davidb> it should be removed
- # [16:04] <Stevef> wouldbe nice
- # [16:04] <@davidb> rich is considering it
- # [16:04] <@davidb> he might even have proposed it, i forget
- # Session Close: Wed Jan 16 16:06:44 2013
- #
- # Session Start: Wed Jan 16 16:06:44 2013
- # Session Ident: #accessibility
- # [16:06] * Disconnected
- # [16:07] * Attempting to rejoin channel #accessibility
- # [16:07] * Rejoined channel #accessibility
- # [16:07] * Topic is '"build the web for everyone"'
- # [16:07] * Set by davidb on Tue Aug 07 14:29:32
- # [16:09] * Quits: AcidBuddha (AcidBuddha@moz-56E7B0E6.superkabel.de) (Ping timeout)
- # [16:11] <Stevef> not yet rich is busy with ARIA SVF integration
- # [16:11] <Stevef> SVG
- # [16:12] <Stevef> while i have your attention a question i asked earlier: any known reason why the aside element gets its accessble name from the element content?
- # [16:13] <@davidb> Stevef: not off hand
- # [16:13] <@davidb> aside is a landmark right?
- # [16:13] <Stevef> its not same as other grouping elements and is causing duplication in a jaws beta leoinie is testing
- # [16:13] <@davidb> like a bookmark
- # [16:13] <@davidb> oh
- # [16:14] <@davidb> does the dupe happen in nvda?
- # [16:14] <Stevef> havent tested, anyway have pinged surkov about it
- # [16:14] <@davidb> in general we don't go all crazy with landmarks… we just go along as usual but expose the landmark via object attributes.
- # [16:14] <@davidb> ok
- # [16:14] <Stevef> I am seeing the element content as the accessible name which is the problem
- # [16:15] <@davidb> give surkov a few days… he's sort of off for a bit.
- # [16:15] <Stevef> yeah no problem
- # [16:15] <@davidb> that is a problem yeah
- # [16:15] <@davidb> does it happen to be on a span?
- # [16:16] <Stevef> no its on the <aside> element
- # [16:16] <Stevef> HTML5 thing
- # [16:19] * Joins: habber (habber@moz-41A7FBC7.sw.biz.rr.com)
- # [16:23] * Quits: jpr_ (jprmc@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Quit: Leaving)
- # [16:23] * Joins: jprmc (jprmc@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
- # [16:23] * ChanServ sets mode: +o jprmc
- # [16:33] * Joins: clown (clown@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
- # [16:44] * Quits: Stevef (chatzilla@moz-CD0F47B5.cable.virginmedia.com) (Client exited)
- # [17:03] * clown is now known as clown_mtg
- # [17:16] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@714E29CB.13DB46CE.3B93FF6D.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
- # [17:16] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@714E29CB.13DB46CE.3B93FF6D.IP)
- # [17:18] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@714E29CB.13DB46CE.3B93FF6D.IP) (Ping timeout)
- # [17:28] <@marcoz> davidb: There's a Firefox OS app day in Berlin on February 2 or 3. Do you think it makes sense for me to go there?
- # [17:31] * Quits: @davidb (davidb@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Connection reset by peer)
- # [17:35] <@marcoz> I scared him off.
- # [17:37] * Quits: aleksandars (Thunderbir@moz-5AB0C6D6.dynamic.telemach.ba) (Client exited)
- # [17:39] <@hub> marcoz: or something
- # [17:41] <@marcoz> hub: ;-)
- # [17:41] * Joins: davidb (davidb@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
- # [17:41] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo davidb davidb
- # [18:04] * Joins: lizzard (ehenry@moz-606E6FC0.dsl.static.sonic.net)
- # [18:17] * Joins: AcidBuddha (AcidBuddha@moz-56E7B0E6.superkabel.de)
- # [18:21] * Quits: @marcoz (marco.zehe@moz-E206FB66.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
- # [18:29] * Quits: clown_mtg (clown@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
- # [18:53] * Quits: habber (habber@moz-41A7FBC7.sw.biz.rr.com) (Quit: habber)
- # [18:54] * Joins: clown (clown@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
- # [19:13] * Joins: habber (habber@moz-41A7FBC7.sw.biz.rr.com)
- # [19:13] * Quits: lizzard (ehenry@moz-606E6FC0.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Quit: lizzard)
- # [19:16] * Joins: lizzard (ehenry@moz-606E6FC0.dsl.static.sonic.net)
- # [19:34] * Quits: AcidBuddha (AcidBuddha@moz-56E7B0E6.superkabel.de) (Connection reset by peer)
- # [19:36] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
- # [20:01] * Joins: aleksandars (Thunderbir@EFB9FB1E.8384669D.90C2761D.IP)
- # [20:30] <@davidb> tbsaunde: bug 829320 makes sense to me
- # [20:30] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=829320 nor, --, ---, trev.saunders, NEW, don't refcount AccEvents
- # [20:30] <@davidb> good first bug?
- # [20:32] * Quits: iscaro (iscaro@201569F1.C6AE27D5.B091F2.IP) (Quit: Leaving)
- # [20:34] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@moz-871F8186.cust.telenor.se)
- # [20:36] <@tbsaunde> davidb: no, it has some random dependancies I'm working
- # [20:36] <@tbsaunde> on
- # [20:36] <@davidb> ah ok
- # [20:37] <@davidb> tbsaunde: i'm going to r- the b2g a11y removal for now
- # [20:37] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@moz-871F8186.cust.telenor.se) (Quit: Leaving.)
- # [20:38] <@tbsaunde> davidb: why? do you have a good reason we shouldn't take it?
- # [20:38] <@tbsaunde> (I think you should r+ it)
- # [20:38] <@davidb> tbsaunde: 'good' is subjective
- # [20:39] <@davidb> tbsaunde: i'm going to need info dougt
- # [20:39] <@hub> it is too late of basecamp
- # [20:39] <@hub> and I don't think it is "tef" issue either
- # [20:39] <@davidb> tbsaunde: don't take it as a shut door… it is my current thinking just for now.
- # [20:40] <@davidb> hub: yeah
- # [20:40] <@eeejay> the original intent of that bug was just to remove accessfu js module from chrome script
- # [20:40] <@davidb> but that should affect r+
- # [20:40] <@hub> eeejay: that was
- # [20:40] <@eeejay> which i am in favor of (or at least don't mind)
- # [20:40] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: but that's silly
- # [20:40] <@hub> note that they removed the color inversion and the corresponding "Accessibility" settings item
- # [20:41] <@eeejay> hub, a long time ago. yeah
- # [20:41] <@tbsaunde> davidb: what should? what we take on branches should atleast mostly be an issue for release managers
- # [20:41] <@davidb> tbsaunde: i meant souldn't
- # [20:41] <@davidb> shouldn't even
- # [20:42] <@tbsaunde> davidb: ah
- # [20:42] <@tbsaunde> davidb: then what is your objection?
- # [20:42] <@davidb> tbsaunde: nothing new
- # [20:43] <@davidb> tbsaunde: can you find the binary size?
- # [20:43] * Quits: lizzard (ehenry@moz-606E6FC0.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Quit: lizzard)
- # [20:43] <@tbsaunde> davidb: so, just your concern that somehow we might be in a case where we could add extensions to b2g that can use random xpcom, but can't change how gecko is built?
- # [20:43] <@eeejay> dougt's summary change is part of what made this confusing
- # [20:44] <@davidb> i don't get the random part?
- # [20:44] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I guess, but really I don't see a point, its clearly a lot of dead code, therefore we should remove it.
- # [20:44] <@davidb> i hear what you are saying.
- # [20:44] <@davidb> generally i agree dead code should be removed.
- # [20:44] <@davidb> i see this as code i desperately want used.
- # [20:45] <@tbsaunde> davidb: as in not even close to web api, totally gecko specific nowhere near standardsish
- # [20:45] <@davidb> ah
- # [20:45] <@davidb> that's what you mean by random right?
- # [20:45] <@tbsaunde> davidb: but that isn't possible so is totally irrelevent
- # [20:45] <@davidb> tbsaunde: are we sure?
- # [20:45] <@tbsaunde> davidb: yes
- # [20:46] <@davidb> i don't know how a b2g extension might work
- # [20:46] <@davidb> or if there is such a thing
- # [20:46] <@tbsaunde> then ask someone who does
- # [20:47] <@davidb> yep
- # [20:47] <@davidb> figures my b2g neighbour is not at his chair :)
- # [20:47] <@davidb> hub: do you know?
- # [20:47] <@hub> no idea about extensions, I haven't seen anything in the UI about it
- # [20:47] <@tbsaunde> I here there's this thing called irc ;)
- # [20:47] <@hub> tbsaunde: what is it?
- # [20:47] <@davidb> tbsaunde: you are correct.
- # [20:48] * @davidb is asking in #b2g
- # [20:52] * @davidb stirs the pot
- # [20:56] <@tbsaunde> davidb: seems like I can't get at try pushes because of the data center stuff, but tbh I'm tired of argue you into being logical
- # [20:58] * Joins: lizzard (ehenry@moz-606E6FC0.dsl.static.sonic.net)
- # [21:00] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, don't forget other irrational thinkers like dougt hub and myself
- # [21:00] <@davidb> tbsaunde: got a link?
- # [21:02] <@davidb> so it sounds like the usage of the a11y engine is under control of the partner
- # [21:03] <@davidb> unlikely they would use it obviously - at least soon
- # [21:04] <@davidb> so we have unlikely but possible usage, possibly legal implication, not having to re-add it later vs the angst of keeping dormant code, the risk of possible erroneous instantiation.
- # [21:04] <@davidb> tbsaunde: does that sound about right to you? ^
- # [21:05] <@tbsaunde> davidb: well, they control how gecko is built I would assume, so if they want to use a11y then they can just build with it enabled
- # [21:06] <@davidb> tbsaunde: i think that is correct yes. dunno what all the implications of off by default are.
- # [21:06] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I think the legal implication is nonsense, and adding it to the build is 10 minutes of work
- # [21:07] <@davidb> tbsaunde: do you have that link handy?
- # [21:07] <@tbsaunde> like when we want to start using it someone write the opposite patch and gets somebody to slap a rubber stamp on it
- # [21:08] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: well, dougt just doesn't understand the situation as far as I can tell, but yes I think you and hub are being irrational here
- # [21:08] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, that step is not necessarily easy, that is what i was saying in the bug
- # [21:08] <@davidb> hub: does your promise of getting it turned back on include the a11y engine? :)
- # [21:09] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: no it is
- # [21:09] <@davidb> *FIGHT*
- # [21:09] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, that was also the experience that dougt was mentioning, getting it turned back on
- # [21:09] * habber is now known as habber-away
- # [21:10] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I'm not sure what your talking a bout
- # [21:10] <@davidb> tbsaunde: a meme of sorts
- # [21:10] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I meant the promise bit
- # [21:11] <@davidb> tbsaunde: IIRC hub promised to write the opposite patch later and get it approved and landed.
- # [21:11] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, when we will want it back on, people will ask why is a11y so bloated, and that first we need to optimize it before we turn it back on.
- # [21:11] <@davidb> guys i really want to get the bloat size
- # [21:11] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, are you proposing this for m-c or mozilla18?
- # [21:11] <@davidb> data is good
- # [21:13] <@tbsaunde> davidb: r=me right now on the obvious backout of my patch when a11y isbeing used on b2g
- # [21:13] <@tbsaunde> there's your approval ;)
- # [21:14] <@davidb> heh
- # [21:14] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: both since its dead code in both places
- # [21:15] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: they won't because it probably won't hurt talos or anything and even if it does nobody pays attention
- # [21:19] <@davidb> tbsaunde: so you're not really in the ok to wontfix anymore… am i right?
- # [21:20] <@tbsaunde> davidb: for b2g 18 I'd be ok to wontfix if release mangers thinks its to risky, but I think we should try
- # [21:21] <@tbsaunde> for trunk I'm ok build a11y if we plan to land use of a11y before the next branch
- # [21:22] <@davidb> so b2g18.next?
- # [21:22] <@tbsaunde> or maybe if you convince me that fighting about it is going to give me too much stress
- # [21:22] <@hub> davidb: I would do whatever it takes for a11y. I don't see this as an issue
- # [21:22] <@hub> davidb: it is not like a war
- # [21:22] <@davidb> hub: good
- # [21:23] <@tbsaunde> davidb: well, will that come from trunk or will that come off the b2g 18 branch
- # [21:23] <@davidb> i am led to believe there was a skirmish for mobile
- # [21:23] <@hub> davidb: everybody want a11y in b2g
- # [21:23] <@hub> now, currently nobody object to what is in there, so the status quo is "do nothing"
- # [21:23] <@davidb> tbsaunde: good question… the version will be like v1 plus a few features
- # [21:23] <@tbsaunde> hub: that's not an option atm :/
- # [21:24] <@davidb> i tried to push for v1 - i really did
- # [21:24] <@davidb> and i'm learning brazilian jiu jitsu
- # [21:24] <@davidb> tbsaunde: i don't want you stressed
- # [21:24] <@davidb> nor anyone else for that matter
- # [21:24] <@hub> davidb: we know v1 is out of scope now.
- # [21:24] <@tbsaunde> davidb: sure, I'd really prefer that to not building a11y but given the options are 1 build a11y but not use it or 2 don't build it we should take 2
- # [21:25] <@hub> tbsaunde: option 1 has been tested so far
- # [21:25] <@tbsaunde> hub: we build b2g with --enable-xul too afaik, do you claim that's reasonable too?
- # [21:25] <@davidb> tbsaunde: i totally understand your position i think and i generally agree… i'm just chasing down specifics here.
- # [21:26] <@hub> *sigh* I didn't expect this bug to just open a can of worm like that
- # [21:26] <@davidb> tbsaunde: what is the reason for --enable-xul
- # [21:26] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I don't try to be stressed, but ...
- # [21:26] <@hub> maybe I should have abstained from filing it
- # [21:26] <@tbsaunde> hub: me neither
- # [21:27] <@tbsaunde> davidb: probably nobody thought about it
- # [21:27] <@tbsaunde> but it would probably take work to get gecko to build without it at this point I bet
- # [21:27] <@davidb> yeah
- # [21:27] <@davidb> that's my guess
- # [21:27] <@tbsaunde> and would be kind of risky, bjacob filed a bug to remove it though I think
- # [21:28] <@davidb> ok let's destress.
- # [21:28] <@davidb> tbsaunde: how do you feel about the risk of removing for the next branch?
- # [21:28] <@davidb> assume 6 weeks
- # [21:28] <@davidb> or so
- # [21:29] <@davidb> schedule is probably confidential
- # [21:29] <@tbsaunde> davidb: risk of what exactly?
- # [21:29] <@davidb> diabling a11y engine
- # [21:29] <@davidb> disabling it
- # [21:30] <@tbsaunde> its between pretty and very safe
- # [21:30] <@davidb> i'd agree
- # [21:30] <@tbsaunde> I'd probably be willing to disable it in a late beta does that answer your question?
- # [21:31] <@davidb> yes it gives me your rating on safety
- # [21:31] * habber-away is now known as habber
- # [21:32] <@tbsaunde> davidb: you claim to agree, but as far as I can tell from your actions you think the opposite /me sort of confused
- # [21:32] <@davidb> tbsaunde: you mean the r-?
- # [21:32] <@tbsaunde> davidb: yeah basically
- # [21:32] <@davidb> it is a "for now" treating the bug as the summary describes it
- # [21:33] <@tbsaunde> hu?
- # [21:33] <@davidb> crap i closed it
- # [21:33] * @davidb hunts
- # [21:34] <@davidb> tbsaunde: basically my comment 17 was the reason for the r- "for now"
- # [21:34] <@davidb> time has passed since
- # [21:34] <@davidb> i learned something about extensions/bundles
- # [21:35] <@davidb> so considering the purely technical side… dead code == useless. smaller code size == better. removal of accidental instantiation == good. are all things i very much agree with.
- # [21:36] <@tbsaunde> davidb: good
- # [21:36] <@davidb> there appears to be other stuff.
- # [21:36] <@davidb> which I'm not sure is being taken seriously.
- # [21:36] <@tbsaunde> other stuff?
- # [21:36] <@davidb> i think ...
- # [21:37] <@tbsaunde> ?
- # [21:38] <@davidb> so i think on we hub has said we needn't fear any pushback later when adding a11y back in
- # [21:38] <@davidb> - on we
- # [21:39] <@eeejay> the entire project is perfectly happy with a11y enabled. and it gives us a good data point when it comes to knowing that current hardware could handle the extra kbs it adds. so i am really not sure why we need to go out on a limb here
- # [21:40] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I completely agree that there is no reason to worry about truble building a11y again
- # [21:40] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: that's more or less an argument for not removing any dead code
- # [21:41] * Joins: mak (chatzilla@moz-35A66F5E.retail.telecomitalia.it)
- # [21:41] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, for not removing dead code that is in the newr future roadmap
- # [21:41] <@davidb> it is like a sleeping dog...
- # [21:41] <@davidb> he'll chase the ducks later
- # [21:41] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: no, just any dead code
- # [21:41] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, there is plenty of dead code hidden by prefs that no one bothers with
- # [21:41] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: it also is the opposite of your argument for why we shouldn't not build it
- # [21:42] <@davidb> (but for version 1 he won't)
- # [21:42] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, i don't follow, my argument?
- # [21:42] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: sure, we could certainly do better, but that isn't argument for not trying
- # [21:43] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: you claim it will be hard to start building a11y again, yet you claim people are ok with it now, those are contradictory
- # [21:43] <@davidb> tbsaunde: not if you add humans :)
- # [21:44] <@tbsaunde> davidb: who what ducks?
- # [21:44] <@davidb> lol
- # [21:44] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, can't find the correct parable for it, but if you take a load off of somebody who is happy carrying it, they will be unhappy when they need to carry it again
- # [21:45] <@davidb> eeejay: my kids never complained about not having chocolate before they tried it for the first time.
- # [21:45] <@tbsaunde> davidb: s/humans/ ilogical humans/
- # [21:45] <@eeejay> exactly, --disable-accessibility is chocolate
- # [21:45] <@davidb> tbsaunde: no. more of what we're saying with the analogy
- # [21:46] <@davidb> eeejay: yeah… but i'm wondering if it really is
- # [21:46] <@davidb> in this case
- # [21:46] <@eeejay> it is chocolate that nobody knows is tasty yet
- # [21:47] <@davidb> if it is tasty then tbsaunde's patch is useful
- # [21:47] <@eeejay> but unhealthy
- # [21:47] <@davidb> right because of addiction
- # [21:47] <@davidb> but it sounds like people are willing to forgo chocolate later
- # [21:47] <@eeejay> --disable-accessibility is like meth
- # [21:47] <@tbsaunde> no, its really not
- # [21:47] <@davidb> right, not meth :)
- # [21:48] <@davidb> that's just silly
- # [21:48] <@tbsaunde> nobody cares about perf anyway :/ (look at the fhr landing for a recent example if you like)
- # [21:48] <@davidb> for clarity… eeejay do you agree on the purely technical merit of tbsaunde
- # [21:48] <@davidb> s
- # [21:48] <@davidb> trying again
- # [21:48] <@davidb> for clarity… eeejay do you agree on the purely technical merit of tbsaunde's argument?
- # [21:48] <@eeejay> i think it is fine having some "dead code" in a product before it is ready for prime time
- # [21:49] <@eeejay> that is what we do when we hide new features in a pref
- # [21:49] <@davidb> tbsaunde: some care… was it a talos regress?
- # [21:49] <@eeejay> we shipped firefox to millions with a useless social api behind a pref
- # [21:49] <@davidb> eeejay: that is a fair point
- # [21:49] <@davidb> eeejay: however it could be turned on
- # [21:49] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I don't know the details well, check de.treemanagement?
- # [21:49] <@davidb> tbsaunde: i don't trust talos anymore sadly
- # [21:50] <@eeejay> davidb, i agree that disabling accessibility with shave literally houndreds of thousands of bytes from libxul
- # [21:50] <@davidb> tbsaunde: but feel free to jump into those threads
- # [21:50] <@tbsaunde> davidb: ehsan / bz have already looked at it
- # [21:50] <@davidb> ok
- # [21:51] <@tbsaunde> but my point is even if you hurt things and we manage to measure that we'll still often leave things in
- # [21:52] <@davidb> we would certainly have to in the case of a11y
- # [21:52] <@davidb> or mozilla would become less appealing to me
- # [21:52] <@davidb> and that's not mozilla
- # [21:52] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, why is removing some dead code so important?
- # [21:53] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: counter question why is leaving it in important
- # [21:53] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, no. that is the status quo, we don't need to do anything to leave it in. you need to justify taking it out
- # [21:53] <@tbsaunde> no, you need to justify not makingthings better
- # [21:54] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, i am asking why is it better? how will it affect the user?
- # [21:54] <@tbsaunde> it didn't need to be terribly important, it should have been really easy
- # [21:55] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: slower start up time?
- # [21:58] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, in a user noticeable way?
- # [21:59] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: almost any singal thing we do to startup speed won't be noticable on its own
- # [21:59] <@tbsaunde> but this is all silly
- # [22:00] <@tbsaunde> its an easy win so we should take it
- # [22:02] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@moz-200DC1CF.customers.ownit.se)
- # [22:04] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@804353A6.368C7786.6A4F8DA2.IP) (Quit: victorporof)
- # [22:06] <@firebot> bbajaj@mozilla.com set status-firefox21 to fixed on bug 829570.
- # [22:06] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=829570 cri, --, ---, nobody, RESO DUPLICATE, [AccessFu] Web content accessibility broken in Nightly builds starting January 11, 2013
- # [22:08] <@davidb> tbsaunde: the talos regression noise is significant
- # [22:08] <@davidb> i'm having trouble finding human replies
- # [22:10] <@tbsaunde> davidb: the discussion I saw was in #developers
- # [22:11] <@davidb> ah
- # [22:32] <@davidb> ok time for train
- # [22:32] * Quits: @davidb (davidb@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Quit: davidb)
- # [22:35] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@804353A6.368C7786.6A4F8DA2.IP)
- # [22:36] * Quits: Justin_o (Justin_o@moz-859149B2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Quit: Justin_o)
- # [22:39] * Quits: lizzard (ehenry@moz-606E6FC0.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Ping timeout)
- # [22:40] * Joins: lizzard (ehenry@moz-606E6FC0.dsl.static.sonic.net)
- # [22:42] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@804353A6.368C7786.6A4F8DA2.IP) (Ping timeout)
- # [22:46] * Quits: fxa90id_ (fxa90id@moz-ABF08BFA.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl) (Ping timeout)
- # [22:50] * Parts: clown (clown@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
- # [22:58] * Joins: satdav (satdav@moz-2B0F19ED.cable.virginmedia.com)
- # [22:59] <satdav> hub, I am going to run a quick half an hour accessbility meeting in 30
- # [23:00] <satdav> eeejay, if you are free or any other contributors or staff you can attend
- # [23:02] <satdav> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/accessibility-2013-01-16
- # [23:12] * Quits: aleksandars (Thunderbir@EFB9FB1E.8384669D.90C2761D.IP) (Ping timeout)
- # [23:18] <satdav> icaaq, ping
- # [23:18] <satdav> jprmc, tbsaunde habber ping
- # [23:19] * Joins: aleksandars (Thunderbir@EFB9FB1E.8384669D.90C2761D.IP)
- # [23:20] * satdav is now known as satdav|mtg
- # [23:20] <satdav|mtg> hi aleksandars
- # [23:20] <satdav|mtg> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/accessibility-2013-01-16
- # [23:20] <satdav|mtg> in 10
- # [23:20] <aleksandars> hi satdav
- # [23:21] <icaaq> satdav|mtg: sorry I have a cold and fever. needs to sleep
- # [23:23] <satdav|mtg> OK
- # [23:23] <satdav|mtg> hi aleksandars
- # [23:24] <aleksandars> just a sec to check agenda I'm a bit tired so I'll try to follow, but I'm not sure :/
- # [23:25] <satdav|mtg> what time zone you on
- # [23:26] <aleksandars> GMT + 1 I think 23:25H
- # [23:26] <satdav|mtg> OK
- # [23:26] <satdav|mtg> I am UK
- # [23:26] <satdav|mtg> yes it is
- # [23:27] * Quits: lizzard (ehenry@moz-606E6FC0.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Quit: lizzard)
- # [23:27] <satdav|mtg> aleksandars, did you used to do sumo
- # [23:29] <satdav|mtg> aleksandars, do you have vidyo to hand
- # [23:29] <aleksandars> no because kerim is now doing that I'm doing remo stuff but also several privet projects so I'm bit busy these days but still I'm trying to help with promotion of Firefox OS here in bosnia, one of my projects is connected with accessibility (www.kolorfilter.org) there is english translation too
- # [23:30] <aleksandars> no
- # [23:30] <aleksandars> :(
- # [23:30] <satdav|mtg> OK
- # [23:31] <aleksandars> sorry I'm too tired I'll soon go to sleep please include my email in mtg notes (aleksandar@mozilla.ba)
- # [23:31] <satdav|mtg> OK
- # [23:34] * Quits: aleksandars (Thunderbir@EFB9FB1E.8384669D.90C2761D.IP) (Quit: aleksandars)
- # [23:40] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@804353A6.368C7786.6A4F8DA2.IP)
- # [23:41] <satdav|mtg> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/accessibility-2013-01-16
- # [23:41] <satdav|mtg> last chance
- # [23:42] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@804353A6.368C7786.6A4F8DA2.IP) (Ping timeout)
- # [23:42] * Joins: davidb (davidb@moz-1EB292CB.dsl.bell.ca)
- # [23:42] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo davidb davidb
- # [23:42] * Quits: @davidb (davidb@moz-1EB292CB.dsl.bell.ca) (Input/output error)
- # [23:47] * Quits: satdav|mtg (satdav@moz-2B0F19ED.cable.virginmedia.com) (Connection reset by peer)
- # Session Close: Thu Jan 17 00:00:00 2013
The end :)