/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2013-01-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jan 18 00:00:01 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  17. # [04:59] <reb> hi
  18. # [05:01] <reb> well this is a shame tgt
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  22. # [06:22] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 832158 filed by trev.saunders@gmail.com.
  23. # [06:22] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=832158 nor, --, ---, trev.saunders, NEW, remove IServiceProvider from nsAccessNodeWrap and make it a taer off
  24. # [06:24] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 703754 on bug 832158.
  25. # [06:29] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 703756 on bug 767272.
  26. # [06:30] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=767272 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, remove use of QI in CAccessibleTable
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  100. # [15:21] <@marcoz> Heyo davidb!
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  102. # [15:29] <@davidb> heyo!
  103. # [15:33] <@firebot> marco.zehe@googlemail.com cancelled review?(dbolter@mozilla.com ) for attachment 702289 on bug 830748.
  104. # [15:33] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=830748 nor, --, ---, marco.zehe, ASSI, [AccessFu] Improve reading of table semantics
  105. # [15:34] <@marcoz> Sigh, I hate it when I always pick the bugs to work on that have no easy solution. I have *no* clue how to go about this now. O_O
  106. # [15:37] <@hub> why do you think the bug needed somebody to pick it up? ;-)
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  108. # [15:50] <@marcoz> hub: No I didn't mean that.
  109. # [15:51] <@marcoz> hub: I want the feature in there. But I have a tendency to jump on features that are complicated.
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  114. # [16:05] <@hub> marcoz: how can I help?
  115. # [16:07] <@davidb> marcoz: store the state in the current pivot or document and use getters?
  116. # [16:08] <@marcoz> hub: Not sure yet. I need to move the logic that finds out if the current cell is different from the previous one, and the current row is different from the previous one, out from the utteranceGenerator into the PresenterContext. Eeejay gave me a pointer, but I am not yet sure how to proceed there. e. g. which calls to make in presenter and which to leave in utteranceGenerator, and most importantly, *how* to pass the information from
  117. # [16:09] <@marcoz> So I know in principle *what* to do, but not *how* to do it yet.
  118. # [16:10] <@marcoz> davidb: I think what I just described to hub shows in principle what I think should be happening, but I don't know how to do it yet.
  119. # [16:11] <@davidb> marcoz: ok
  120. # [16:13] <@marcoz> davidb: hub: Unless you guys disagree with this line of thinking and I should store the stuff somewhere else even.
  121. # [16:13] <@davidb> i don't know yet
  122. # [16:15] <@marcoz> davidb: Anyway, don't wait for a patch today, I need to mull this over in my head some more, may not start re-coding this until Monday.
  123. # [16:15] <@davidb> oh I'm not waiting :)
  124. # [16:16] <@marcoz> hahah
  125. # [16:16] <@davidb> marcoz: sometimes scribbling helps one start writing
  126. # [16:17] <@davidb> marcoz: i'd suggest leaving a comment or email for eitan with some key questions before signing off
  127. # [16:17] <@davidb> I'm personally thrilled you are doing this bug.
  128. # [16:17] <@marcoz> davidb: Yeah like I said, I know what needs to be done, just not how yet. e. g. should I just pass a true/false flag into utteranceGenerator, or gather the information already in presenter and pass the actual column and row index values? That's one question I'm asking myself, for example.
  129. # [16:18] <@davidb> Well, is the computation possibly useful for non-utterances?
  130. # [16:18] <@davidb> Keep it close to where it used is my hunch.
  131. # [16:18] <@marcoz> davidb: No.
  132. # [16:18] <@davidb> ok
  133. # [16:19] <@davidb> marcoz: want me to dive deeper and look at your patch?
  134. # [16:21] <@marcoz> davidb: No I don't think that's necessary. I just had an idea, I'll create a new generator function specifically for tables that I call if I find that I am dealing with them. I'll probably have something on Monday, or I'll scream for help. ;)
  135. # [16:21] <@davidb> That sounds neat. Why not sketch it up with stubs now?
  136. # [16:22] * @davidb shakes his pompoms
  137. # [16:23] <@marcoz> davidb: No that's not how I work….I mull it over, sketch it up in my head and then start coding once I know where more or less exactly I'm going with something.
  138. # [16:23] <@davidb> Roger.
  139. # [16:23] <@davidb> I do that too actually.
  140. # [16:27] <@davidb> marcoz: this is sort of off topic, but do you know how tables are usually flattened? is it row by row?
  141. # [16:31] <@marcoz> davidb: Normally, tables are read top left to bottom right, yes. So row by row, from the left to the right columns.
  142. # [16:32] <@davidb> wow i googled table flattening and there is another meaning which is interesting
  143. # [16:32] <@davidb> http://blogannath.blogspot.ca/2011/01/microsoft-access-tips-tricks-flattening.html
  144. # [16:32] <@davidb> thanks
  145. # [16:32] <@marcoz> davidb: However, all desktop screen readers have special table commands to move in all four directions independently, so one can go down a certain column instead of having to go row by row. One can also switch from a column 3 to a column 2 and go further down there etc.
  146. # [16:32] <@davidb> yeah that seems crucial to me
  147. # [16:33] <@davidb> i'm thinking of a student project around RSVP
  148. # [16:33] <@davidb> rapid serial visual presentation
  149. # [16:33] <@marcoz> davidb: On touch screens, you are obviously much more flexible. Swiping will still move from top left to bottom right, but of course by exploring you can go wherever you want.
  150. # [16:34] <@davidb> marcoz: i would guess for spatial thinkers… explore by touch is much preferred?
  151. # [16:34] <@davidb> not sure about otherwise
  152. # [16:35] <@marcoz> davidb: I *love* touch screens! Loved them since I first got my hands on an iPhone, in fact! I am a spacial thinker, and random access is soooooo apreciated!
  153. # [16:35] <@davidb> Yeah I'm asking a strongly biased dude :)
  154. # [16:35] <@marcoz> davidb: In fact, I now often feel limited by desktops since they require me to think serially again.
  155. # [16:35] <@davidb> I'll bet!
  156. # [16:35] <@davidb> it must feel restrictive
  157. # [16:35] <@davidb> marcoz: how common is the opposite opinion?
  158. # [16:36] <@davidb> I of course know you love EBT
  159. # [16:37] <@marcoz> Yes, it does. OS X's VoiceOver functionality somewhat mittigates this, too, since one can explore at least part of the screen using the trackpad, but it's still limitting since there are many more complex interactable widgets than on iOS or Android devices, and one has to scroll a lot more, or interact or stop interacting with certain widgets more often.
  160. # [16:37] <@davidb> (i suppose it correlates with people who like touch displays and those who do not)
  161. # [16:37] <@davidb> i can understand why you would want to spend most of your time on iOS
  162. # [16:38] <@marcoz> The opposite opinion is just as valid. Not all blind people are spacial thinkers, and they can either use swiping gestures to sequentially explore the screen, or if they don't want to use touch screens at all, there are still a few phones with number pads and Symbian or Blackberry screen readers left. Although these options are rapidly diminishing.
  163. # [16:39] * @davidb finds https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/reasy/
  164. # [16:39] <@marcoz> davidb: VoiceOver on iOS, and also Android, support the pairing of bluetooth keyboards and using the screen readers that way. With VoiceOver, it works quite well, almost gives the same amount of commands as on the desktop, with Android, it acts like a d-pad or directional controller, with all known hoops and limitations.
  165. # [16:41] <@davidb> silly android
  166. # [16:41] <@marcoz> davidb: Even in reader mode, I would hate, desktop or mobile, if data tables were flattened out somehow. If something needs to be presented in a data table form, it should be maintained, IMO.
  167. # [16:42] <@marcoz> Although it's not common to find real data tables in articles, which are often the most quoted use case for reader mode.
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  169. # [16:47] <@davidb> marcoz: i'm thinking purely for an RSVP presenter
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  173. # [16:52] <@marcoz> davidb: Hm, I am probably the wrong person to ask what this should look like. ;) But doesn't a table already appear in a linear fashion in the way it makes the most sense? E. g. it would make no sense to run this column by column vertically, without a relation to neighboring cells.
  174. # [16:52] <@davidb> yeah
  175. # [16:53] <@davidb> i can imagine modes
  176. # [16:53] <@davidb> possibly adding visual affordances for helping recall/group columns… perhaps using colour, i dunno
  177. # [16:53] <@davidb> there doesn't appear to be a lot of research
  178. # [17:02] <@marcoz> davidb: What I can say is that braille users on the desktop prefer a table's row being displayed in full instead of only a single cell. JAWS introduced something they call spacial representation or something, a verbosity setting one can flip to get things such as tables presented in a more two-dimensional form.
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  188. # [19:31] * @eeejay shakes fist in air
  189. # [19:31] <@eeejay> one day, i'll be here when marcoz is awake
  190. # [19:34] <@davidb> eeejay: give in to the dark side… move east :)
  191. # [19:35] <@eeejay> davidb, or maybei should give in to the dark side and start working when it is still dark out
  192. # [19:36] <@hub> work at night
  193. # [19:36] <@hub> :-)
  194. # [19:57] <@davidb> lol
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  205. # [21:35] <@davidb> tbsaunde: i emailed alex last night… he is doing ok but he didn't say anything about reviews
  206. # [21:37] <@tbsaunde> davidb: ok
  207. # [21:38] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@92DE1318.62A0413.79933D60.IP)
  208. # [21:51] <@davidb> tbsaunde: got around to finding that bug. not sure it will interest you but do you want a cc?
  209. # [21:51] <@davidb> (sec bug)
  210. # [21:51] * @davidb does anyway
  211. # [21:53] * Quits: @davidb (davidb@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Quit: davidb)
  212. # [21:57] <@tbsaunde> I really need to make a subkey for my work laptop
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The end :)