/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2013-03-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Mar 21 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  10. # [01:21] <timmytwot> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WPafswrC64
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  31. # [07:12] <@firebot> yura.zenevich@gmail.com requested feedback from eitan@monotonous. org for attachment 727535 on bug 753984.
  32. # [07:12] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=753984 nor, --, ---, yura.zenevich, NEW, [AccessFu] Make utterance order configurable
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  36. # [08:20] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 853340 filed by surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  37. # [08:20] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=853340 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, getTextAtOffset for word boundaries: beginning of a new life
  38. # [08:48] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 727551 on bug 853340.
  39. # [08:48] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=853340 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, getTextAtOffset for word boundaries: beginning of a new life
  40. # [08:48] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Assignee on bug 853340 from nobody@mozilla.org to surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  41. # [08:49] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 853340 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
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  58. # [13:42] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com granted review for attachment 726471 on bug 852021.
  59. # [13:42] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=852021 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, NEW, add getText* at caret offset mochitest
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  65. # [14:12] <@marcoz> Hi davidb!
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  74. # [14:45] <@davidb> heyo!
  75. # [14:45] <@davidb> marcoz: what's this about surkov and text? he and i emailed about that last week but has he made some kind of commitment?
  76. # [14:45] <@davidb> hub: shall we 1:1 at 10?
  77. # [14:45] <@davidb> oh surkov!
  78. # [14:45] <@davidb> you're here :0
  79. # [14:45] <@davidb> :)
  80. # [14:46] <@davidb> firebot: biesi?
  81. # [14:46] <@firebot> davidb: biesi is Christian Biesinger cbiesinger@gmail.com, networking pwner and the author of the BMP and XBM Decoder. cc ":biesi"
  82. # [14:48] <@tbsaunde> surkov: so, for bug 852044 I think the event checkers in loadURI() need to be made async seem reasonable?
  83. # [14:48] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=852044 nor, --, ---, trev.saunders, ASSI, don't fire events from DocAccessible::ProcessLoad() sync
  84. # [14:49] <@tbsaunde> in test_scroll.xul
  85. # [14:49] <@davidb> aha bug 368895 activity
  86. # [14:49] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=368895 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [meta] Tracking bug for accessibility API support of text
  87. # [14:49] <@davidb> awesome
  88. # [14:50] <@tbsaunde> davidb: and there's some insane patch in my queue :/
  89. # [14:50] <@davidb> tbsaunde: oh?
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  91. # [14:50] <@tbsaunde> davidb: bug 853340
  92. # [14:50] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=853340 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, getTextAtOffset for word boundaries: beginning of a new life
  93. # [14:50] <@davidb> haha!
  94. # [14:51] <@davidb> surkov: this is great to see
  95. # [14:52] <@marcoz> tbsaunde: davidb: I liked surkov's comment "Don't be picky". Heh.
  96. # [14:52] <@davidb> yeah just read that
  97. # [14:52] <@marcoz> davidb: And yes, this is the bug I was also reading when I wrote that tweet. :)
  98. # [14:52] <@davidb> it all makes sense now
  99. # [14:52] <@davidb> hmmm EWordMovementType
  100. # [14:55] <@surkov> tbsaunde: do we wait for more than one event?
  101. # [14:55] <@surkov> do you have a log?
  102. # [14:55] <@tbsaunde> surkov: yes, doc load and scroll start
  103. # [14:55] <@tbsaunde> the test assumes scroll start comes after
  104. # [14:56] <@surkov> tbsaunde: so scroll start happens before doc load, we need to check with Jamie if it's ok (at least until we IA2 1.3 is out)
  105. # [14:56] <@hub> davidb: we can
  106. # [14:56] <@davidb> hub: ok let's
  107. # [14:56] <@tbsaunde> surkov: I could grab a try log if you want to see it
  108. # [14:56] <@surkov> it makes sense
  109. # [14:56] <@surkov> davidb: it's IA2 text (not UIA)
  110. # [14:56] <@tbsaunde> surkov: how is ia2 related?
  111. # [14:57] <@surkov> tbsaunde: ia2 1.3 provides a property to get anchor target
  112. # [14:57] <@surkov> so if they miss scroll start due to some reason then they can check that property
  113. # [14:57] <@surkov> but until that the events order can make a difference
  114. # [14:59] <@tbsaunde> surkov: so I think it could already happen that scroll start happens first, say if you have really slow loading iframe
  115. # [14:59] <@surkov> tbsaunde: true that happens, the question is if we do things more worst than they were
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  117. # [15:00] <@surkov> tbsaunde: because it happens we introduced that property
  118. # [15:00] <@tbsaunde> surkov: I guess
  119. # [15:02] * clown is now known as clown_mtg
  120. # [15:02] <@surkov> marcoz: please keep eyes open on possible regressions because of those (and ongoing) text works
  121. # [15:03] <@marcoz> surkov: You bet I will!
  122. # [15:03] <@surkov> thank you
  123. # [15:04] <@tbsaunde> surkov: so, does it make a lot of sennse to land that one patch seperately?
  124. # [15:05] <@surkov> tbsaunde: why not (especially since we need to work on layout side too). If we are too bad and this gets into aurora then we can back out it from aurora
  125. # [15:06] <@tbsaunde> surkov: mostly just would be asier to review if I saw the bigger picture
  126. # [15:06] <@surkov> tbsaunde: I think we will end up with new code
  127. # [15:06] <@tbsaunde> also would be nice if test cleanup was in another patch but not really related I guess
  128. # [15:07] <@surkov> and I don't really know how long it could take
  129. # [15:07] <@tbsaunde> surkov: so what are point of changes then?
  130. # [15:07] <@surkov> tbsaunde: I tried to chagne those tests that I need to change, kTodo -> kOk transition
  131. # [15:08] <@surkov> tbsaunde: what changes?
  132. # [15:08] <@tbsaunde> surkov: sure, just would have been nice if you stashed the patch, cleaned up the undefined weirdness in a seperate patch and then changed the kTodo stuff, but ow well at this point
  133. # [15:09] <@tbsaunde> surkov: the HyperTextAccessible stuff
  134. # [15:09] <@tbsaunde> like what's going to be replaced and what stays?
  135. # [15:09] <@surkov> tbsaunde: what is point of HyperTextAcc changes?
  136. # [15:09] <@tbsaunde> surkov: yes, I don't get that yet
  137. # [15:10] <@surkov> tbsaunde: the end version should take for a while, I wouldn't want to keep all of this in my queue for a long time
  138. # [15:11] <@tbsaunde> surkov: ok
  139. # [15:11] <@surkov> tbsaunde: some extra work for reviewer, I get another side on my wips, we get the work in iterative way
  140. # [15:11] <@surkov> side -> sight
  141. # [15:11] <@surkov> and we get feedback :)
  142. # [15:12] <@tbsaunde> surkov: sure, just want to understand what's worth caring about and what will change anyway
  143. # [15:13] <@surkov> tbsaunde: you should care about new code, old code it's better to check for sainity
  144. # [15:13] <@surkov> if I do something wrong then I need to know that (and it should be fixed)
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  146. # [15:14] <@surkov> if you have ideas how to improve things then I can work on it in follow up
  147. # [15:20] <@surkov> tbsaunde: pls take a look at answer in bug 852021, it seems reasonable and I can land
  148. # [15:20] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=852021 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, NEW, add getText* at caret offset mochitest
  149. # [15:22] <@marcoz> Fun, somebody borked the test harness. OK, will take another stab at testing my changes for bug 811307 tomorrow.
  150. # [15:22] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=811307 nor, --, ---, marco.zehe, NEW, [AccessFu] Add mochitest for enabling
  151. # [15:23] <@marcoz> davidb: When is the next merge day?
  152. # [15:28] <@tbsaunde> surkov: makes sense mod the spec being insane :/
  153. # [15:29] <@tbsaunde> marcoz: look at the topic in #developers ;p
  154. # [15:31] <@surkov> tbsaunde: that's right :)
  155. # [15:31] <@marcoz> tbsaunde: OK! I think it's wise to not land any of this risky text refactor stuff before the uplift. After the uplift, we have six weeks to solidify it. Since the merge is so close, I think we should just leave the 22 train without any of this refactoring work. CC surkov
  156. # [15:31] <@surkov> marcoz: it'll be in two weeks?
  157. # [15:32] <@marcoz> Less than two weeks, on April 2.
  158. # [15:36] <@tbsaunde> marcoz: probably easier to bback it out unless surkov wants to use a user repo, but that's probably not really better than his queue?
  159. # [15:36] <@surkov> tbsaunde: should be the same
  160. # [15:37] <@tbsaunde> surkov: what would be the same?
  161. # [15:37] <@surkov> tbsaunde, marcoz: we can back out if it breaks users
  162. # [15:37] <@surkov> tbsaunde: repo and my queue
  163. # [15:38] <@tbsaunde> surkov: well, repo is somewhat better if you want me to look at stuff or write patches, but sure
  164. # [15:39] <@surkov> tbsaunde: look at stuff is asking you for review, write patches - perhaps it's too thing place for two :)
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  169. # [16:03] <@davidb> backing stuff out on aurora is certainly an option
  170. # [16:03] <@davidb> (i appreciate the risk)
  171. # [16:10] <@davidb> surkov: does any of this work help UIA text?
  172. # [16:10] <@davidb> inquiring minds want to know
  173. # [16:11] <@surkov> davidb: only experience
  174. # [16:11] <@davidb> i see
  175. # [16:11] <@surkov> mostly
  176. # [16:12] <@surkov> fixing layout will help UI of course
  177. # [16:13] <@davidb> yeah
  178. # [16:14] <@tbsaunde> surkov: mgorse confirms people cash the result of atk_object_get_name()
  179. # [16:14] * @davidb wonders if the nvda guys like http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms745158.aspx
  180. # [16:15] <@surkov> tbsaunde: you mean screen readers?
  181. # [16:15] <@surkov> then name change event on get_name() won't help
  182. # [16:16] <@tbsaunde> surkov: it sort of helps if some one else ask
  183. # [16:16] <@tbsaunde> surkov: well, the stuff between screen readers and gecko yes
  184. # [16:16] <@surkov> tbsaunde: it's so intermittent (but others don't have a reason to ask for a name)
  185. # [16:17] <@tbsaunde> surkov: why don't they?
  186. # [16:17] <@surkov> tbsaunde: because they rely on cached version
  187. # [16:17] <@surkov> everybody relies on it :)
  188. # [16:18] <@tbsaunde> surkov: the cache is per client process, so they can't access other processes caches
  189. # [16:18] <@surkov> anyway
  190. # [16:18] <@surkov> if everybody cache names then why anybody would need to ask
  191. # [16:19] <@tbsaunde> they need to get it one time to have something in the cache don't they ;)
  192. # [16:19] <@surkov> but I don't really believe that "the hope that somebody will ask for a name and I will update it" works in real life
  193. # [16:19] <@surkov> tbsaunde: well after the page was loaded, everybody asked for a name
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  195. # [16:19] <@surkov> and if somebody else is not run after those 2 then it doesn't work :)
  196. # [16:20] <@surkov> tbsaunde: if we miss name change event in some cases then we need to have a bug to fire name chagne events
  197. # [16:20] <@surkov> it's not atk-only issue I think
  198. # [16:20] <@surkov> everybody caches name or many ATs do that
  199. # [16:21] <@tbsaunde> surkov: so your proposing make name change events always correct?
  200. # [16:21] <@tbsaunde> that seems pretty hard
  201. # [16:21] <@surkov> tbsaunde: I propose to fire it when AT need it
  202. # [16:21] <@surkov> tbsaunde: yes but fire event if somebody asked for name doesn't work too
  203. # [16:22] <@tbsaunde> surkov: sure, but its the same as the scroll thing do we make things worse
  204. # [16:22] <@tbsaunde> and what is the harm
  205. # [16:22] <@surkov> it doesn't seem we make them worth
  206. # [16:23] <@surkov> honestly I don't believe that anybody relies on that weird get_name behavior
  207. # [16:23] <@tbsaunde> huh?
  208. # [16:23] <@surkov> worth -> worst
  209. # [16:23] <@tbsaunde> I'm not sure, but I don't see too much point to change it
  210. # [16:24] <@tbsaunde> surkov: and if you want to cchange that shouldn't we change similar stuff for setting parent and description?
  211. # [16:24] <@surkov> tbsaunde: seems so
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  214. # [16:29] <@tbsaunde> surkov: so, I'm trying to get mgorse to give us a way to just not have name cached, but for now I still don't see a reason to change behavior in that particular bug
  215. # [16:30] <@surkov> tbsaunde: it's just weird and we need to introduce new code to implement that weird things
  216. # [16:30] <@surkov> tbsaunde: let's do introduce that code if it makes us a problem?
  217. # [16:30] <@firebot> chrislord.net@gmail.com changed the Assignee on bug 852955 from nobody@mozilla.org to chrislord.net@gmail.com.
  218. # [16:30] <@firebot> chrislord.net@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 852955 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
  219. # [16:30] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=852955 maj, --, ---, chrislord.net, ASSI, [AccessFu] Trying to activate items at top of pages brings up awesome bar or menu instead
  220. # [16:31] <@tbsaunde> surkov: I don't see how the logic would be new, and if it is a problem I doubt we'll here about it till its on release
  221. # [16:32] <@surkov> tbsaunde: the logic is not new, the code is new because event was a side effect we used set_name function
  222. # [16:33] <@tbsaunde> surkov: it wouldn't suprise me if the reason we use set name function was for event
  223. # [16:33] <@surkov> tbsaunde: I must misunderstand something then
  224. # [16:33] <@surkov> or everything :)
  225. # [16:34] <@tbsaunde> surkov: I mean that code was probably written in 2003 or something so who knows why it is the way it is
  226. # [16:34] <@surkov> because if that logic was introduced on purpose then it was a great crazy mind
  227. # [16:34] <@surkov> tbsaunde: let's change it and see?
  228. # [16:34] <@surkov> :)
  229. # [16:35] <@davidb> great crazy mind? lots of those around here.
  230. # [16:35] <@surkov> oh yeah
  231. # [16:35] <@davidb> but maybe it was ginn chen :)
  232. # [16:35] <@surkov> he's not really crazy afaik
  233. # [16:36] <@tbsaunde> surkov: that code isn't the most crazy I've seen, but that kind of madness isn't unique there
  234. # [16:36] * Joins: nhirata (anonymous@moz-1A50F7F8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  235. # [16:37] <@surkov> tbsaunde: oh, right. anyway if you really like to keep that madness carefully through our code lines then ok but please make sure there's a bold XXX comment saying this part is crazy
  236. # [16:37] <@davidb> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/search?string=there+be+dragons
  237. # [16:42] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@2982C4BE.162B26E2.79933D60.IP) (Quit: victorporof)
  238. # [16:48] <@firebot> chrislord.net@gmail.com requested review from bugmail.mozilla@sta ktrace.com for attachment 727704 on bug 852955.
  239. # [16:48] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=852955 maj, --, ---, chrislord.net, ASSI, [AccessFu] Trying to activate items at top of pages brings up awesome bar or menu instead
  240. # [16:49] <@firebot> chrislord.net@gmail.com changed the Assignee on bug 852955 from chrislord.net@gmail.com to nobody@mozilla.org.
  241. # [16:49] <@firebot> chrislord.net@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 852955 from ASSIGNED to NEW.
  242. # [16:49] <@firebot> chrislord.net@gmail.com set status-firefox21 to unaffected on bug 852955.
  243. # [16:49] <@firebot> chrislord.net@gmail.com set status-firefox22 to affected on bug 852955.
  244. # [16:50] <@davidb> hmmm, eeejay maybe you'd like to take bug 852955?
  245. # [16:50] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@D2069856.FE797095.222B27F0.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
  246. # [16:50] <@davidb> man i'm hungry
  247. # [16:51] <@davidb> hub: any ideas?
  248. # [16:51] <@davidb> wrt food
  249. # [16:52] <@eeejay> davidb, yeah maybe
  250. # [16:52] <@hub> davidb: don't know
  251. # [16:52] <@hub> pondering
  252. # [16:53] <@davidb> sounds like chinatown
  253. # [16:55] <@marcoz> eeejay: I hate to pull you away from B2G work, but this is impacting quite a number of users obviously. Can you pick this up? I mean bug 852955.
  254. # [16:56] <@eeejay> marcoz, chris volunteered mfinkle. in any case, we should have this resolved by next week for sure. when is uplift?
  255. # [16:56] <@eeejay> maybe i'll put aside tomorrow for android woes
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  257. # [17:00] <@marcoz> eeejay: Uplift is on April 2.
  258. # [17:00] <@eeejay> marcoz, yeah, we will nail it before then :)
  259. # [17:00] <@marcoz> eeejay: But next week and the week after are short weeks for many countries due to the Easter festivities.
  260. # [17:00] <@eeejay> marcoz, got it, i'm on it tomorrow for sure
  261. # [17:01] <@eeejay> if not today
  262. # [17:01] * @eeejay is spineless
  263. # [17:02] <@eeejay> marcoz, it will be an opportunity to look into my other pet peeves, like not being able to swipe from chrome to content
  264. # [17:04] <@marcoz> eeejay: Oh yes! And why we're repeating the "page loaded" thing when we first touch (not swipe in) the web content.
  265. # [17:04] <@marcoz> eeejay: Standing by. ;)
  266. # [17:05] * @eeejay nods
  267. # [17:05] <@marcoz> eeejay: davidb: BTW I got my shipping tracking number for the NEXUS 4 today, so expect it to arrive tomorrow.
  268. # [17:05] <@eeejay> marcoz, you could compile a list for me :)
  269. # [17:05] <@eeejay> marcoz, awesome, i expect a lot more bug reports when you start using that
  270. # [17:05] <@marcoz> You bet! :)
  271. # [17:06] <@marcoz> eeejay: I'll just write this up in an e-mail for now, OK?
  272. # [17:06] <@eeejay> marcoz, sounds good
  273. # [17:11] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@moz-5D5F418A.cust.tele2.se)
  274. # [17:12] <@marcoz> eeejay: You've got mail. :)
  275. # [17:12] <@eeejay> marcoz, thanks :)
  276. # [17:13] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@moz-5D5F418A.cust.tele2.se) (Ping timeout)
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  278. # [17:20] <@eeejay> http://conversat.io/accessibility
  279. # [17:20] * Quits: @surkov (surkov@511E724B.E00BF004.E17943EE.IP) (Quit: surkov)
  280. # [17:20] <@eeejay> hub, want to join? ^
  281. # [17:23] * nhirata is now known as nhirata|OoO
  282. # [17:28] <@marcoz> eeejay: I just brought up the link. Nobody there.
  283. # [17:28] <@eeejay> marcoz, wait. let me rejoin
  284. # [17:28] <@eeejay> ok. rejoined
  285. # [17:29] <@eeejay> weird. when i open both a chrome and ff window, i don't see myself
  286. # [17:31] <@marcoz> I don't hear you.
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  288. # [17:31] <@eeejay> marcoz, yeah, weird
  289. # [17:31] <@eeejay> i guess it doesn't work?
  290. # [17:32] * Quits: habber (habber@moz-8654C0B7.nyc.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout)
  291. # [17:32] * habber_ is now known as habber
  292. # [17:32] <@eeejay> thats too bad. this looks awesome
  293. # [17:32] <@eeejay> i could hear myself :)
  294. # [17:33] <@marcoz> This still seems to be highly experimental stuff. :)
  295. # [17:33] <@tbsaunde> what is it supposed to be?
  296. # [17:34] <@marcoz> tbsaunde: WebRTC. Conference calls through the browser.
  297. # [17:42] * Quits: clown_mtg (clown@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
  298. # [17:52] <@davidb> marcoz: awesome (n4)
  299. # [17:52] * Joins: clown (clown@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
  300. # [17:53] * clown is now known as clown_mtg
  301. # [17:54] <@hub> eeejay: what is it?
  302. # [17:55] <@eeejay> hub, a webrtc muc video/voip
  303. # [17:55] <@hub> oh
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  306. # [18:02] * davidb is now known as davidb|w3c
  307. # [18:03] <@marcoz> OK, going off for the night. eeejay If you have anything by tomorrow morning (my time), I'll give it a thorough go, I promise! :)
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  314. # [19:14] <yzen> eeejay: hi, I added a potential test case for bug 753984, hopefully the format is what you had in mind, I was also wondering if just testing a method that is affected by the preference sufficient enough (whenever you have time of course)?
  315. # [19:14] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=753984 nor, --, ---, yura.zenevich, NEW, [AccessFu] Make utterance order configurable
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  324. # [20:08] * davidb|w3c is now known as davidb
  325. # [20:10] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 853581 filed by dbolter@mozilla.com.
  326. # [20:10] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=853581 nor, --, ---, dbolter, NEW, Minor nsAccUtils cleanup.
  327. # [20:12] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 727814 on bug 853581.
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  330. # [20:26] * nhirata|OoO is now known as nhirata
  331. # [20:28] <@davidb> tbsaunde: apologies in advance for such a trivial patch
  332. # [20:28] * @davidb hunts sugar
  333. # [20:29] <@tbsaunde> np
  334. # [20:38] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com granted review for attachment 727814 on bug 853581.
  335. # [20:39] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=853581 nor, --, ---, dbolter, NEW, Minor nsAccUtils cleanup.
  336. # [20:54] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com requested needinfo from jamie@nvaccess.or g on bug 852044.
  337. # [20:54] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=852044 nor, --, ---, trev.saunders, ASSI, don't fire events from DocAccessible::ProcessLoad() sync
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  344. # [22:05] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com granted review for attachment 727009 on bug 852804.
  345. # [22:05] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=852804 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, NEW, a11y::SelectionManager shouldn't hold a strong ref to focused element
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  361. # Session Close: Fri Mar 22 00:00:00 2013

The end :)