/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2013-04-11 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 11 00:00:01 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
  3. # [00:11] * Quits: nhirata (anonymous@moz-BE33DA21.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net) (Quit: nhirata)
  4. # [00:15] * Joins: nhirata (anonymous@moz-BE33DA21.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net)
  5. # [00:26] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@466CECCA.162B26E2.79933D60.IP)
  6. # [00:27] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@466CECCA.162B26E2.79933D60.IP) (Ping timeout)
  7. # [00:56] * Quits: Gijs (gijs@2557E599.66715431.D25A875A.IP) (Ping timeout)
  8. # [01:01] * Joins: Gijs (gijs@2557E599.66715431.D25A875A.IP)
  9. # [01:01] * Joins: Jamie (Instantbir@moz-CA26021.jantrid.net)
  10. # [01:26] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@466CECCA.162B26E2.79933D60.IP)
  11. # [01:28] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@466CECCA.162B26E2.79933D60.IP) (Ping timeout)
  12. # [02:27] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@466CECCA.162B26E2.79933D60.IP)
  13. # [02:28] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@466CECCA.162B26E2.79933D60.IP) (Ping timeout)
  14. # [02:36] * Quits: logbot (logbot@moz-58CB32ED.glob.com.au) (Ping timeout)
  15. # [02:37] * Joins: logbot (logbot@moz-58CB32ED.glob.com.au)
  16. # [02:42] * Joins: scott_gonzalez (scott_gonz@moz-91C81A39.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net)
  17. # [03:00] * Joins: surkov (surkov@B3C081AC.7AE20955.EBE09E3C.IP)
  18. # [03:00] * ChanServ sets mode: +o surkov
  19. # [03:22] * Quits: @surkov (surkov@B3C081AC.7AE20955.EBE09E3C.IP) (Quit: surkov)
  20. # [03:24] * Quits: nhirata (anonymous@moz-BE33DA21.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net) (Quit: nhirata)
  21. # [03:27] * Joins: surkov (surkov@B3C081AC.7AE20955.EBE09E3C.IP)
  22. # [03:27] * ChanServ sets mode: +o surkov
  23. # [03:27] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@466CECCA.162B26E2.79933D60.IP)
  24. # [03:27] * Quits: @surkov (surkov@B3C081AC.7AE20955.EBE09E3C.IP) (Quit: surkov)
  25. # [03:28] <@firebot> akeybl@mozilla.com granted approval-mozilla-aurora for attachment 733213 on bug 857936.
  26. # [03:28] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=857936 nor, --, mozilla23, surkov.alexander, RESO FIXED, ARIA columnheader/rowheader should inherit editable state
  27. # [03:29] * Joins: surkov (surkov@B3C081AC.7AE20955.EBE09E3C.IP)
  28. # [03:29] * ChanServ sets mode: +o surkov
  29. # [03:30] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@466CECCA.162B26E2.79933D60.IP) (Ping timeout)
  30. # [03:32] * Quits: logbot (logbot@moz-58CB32ED.glob.com.au) (Ping timeout)
  31. # [03:33] * Joins: logbot (logbot@moz-58CB32ED.glob.com.au)
  32. # [03:36] * Quits: Gijs (gijs@2557E599.66715431.D25A875A.IP) (Ping timeout)
  33. # [03:41] * Joins: yzen (Adium@AA2C085E.10C8AEF8.9A8C35B4.IP)
  34. # [03:51] * Quits: scott_gonzalez (scott_gonz@moz-91C81A39.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net) (Quit: scott_gonzalez)
  35. # [03:52] * Joins: davidb (davidb@moz-22F8547E.dsl.bell.ca)
  36. # [03:52] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo davidb davidb
  37. # [04:07] * Quits: yzen (Adium@AA2C085E.10C8AEF8.9A8C35B4.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
  38. # [04:13] * Joins: yzen (Adium@AA2C085E.10C8AEF8.9A8C35B4.IP)
  39. # [04:28] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@466CECCA.162B26E2.79933D60.IP)
  40. # [04:30] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@466CECCA.162B26E2.79933D60.IP) (Ping timeout)
  41. # [04:39] * Quits: @davidb (davidb@moz-22F8547E.dsl.bell.ca) (Quit: davidb)
  42. # [04:58] * Joins: lizzard (ehenry@moz-5A4BE8E8.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  43. # [05:09] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
  44. # [05:13] * Quits: fxa90id (fxa90id@moz-DA50A290.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl) (Ping timeout)
  45. # [05:14] * Quits: lizzard (ehenry@moz-5A4BE8E8.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Quit: lizzard)
  46. # [05:28] * surkov sets mode: +o tbsaunde
  47. # [05:29] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@466CECCA.162B26E2.79933D60.IP)
  48. # [05:31] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@466CECCA.162B26E2.79933D60.IP) (Ping timeout)
  49. # [05:49] * Joins: Gijs (gijs@2557E599.66715431.D25A875A.IP)
  50. # [06:19] * Joins: lizzard (ehenry@moz-5A4BE8E8.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  51. # [06:28] <@surkov> tbsaunde: ping me when you're around
  52. # [06:28] <@tbsaunde> surkov: hi
  53. # [06:28] <@surkov> oh!
  54. # [06:29] <@surkov> tbsaunde: I wanted to ask you to compare our text and gedit text on your example
  55. # [06:29] <@surkov> tbsaunde: I think whether I should move forward or I made mistake somewhere when I was reading the atk spec
  56. # [06:30] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@466CECCA.162B26E2.79933D60.IP)
  57. # [06:31] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@466CECCA.162B26E2.79933D60.IP) (Ping timeout)
  58. # [06:33] <@tbsaunde> surkov: I asked hub to look into it since I'm kind of busy
  59. # [06:33] <@tbsaunde> hub: how did that go?
  60. # [06:35] <@surkov> hub sleeps I guess
  61. # [06:36] <@tbsaunde> surkov: apparently, sorry
  62. # [06:38] * Joins: nhirata (anonymous@moz-1A50F7F8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  63. # [06:45] * Quits: brankc (brankc@moz-29FFE1B5.me) (Ping timeout)
  64. # [06:45] * Joins: brankc (brankc@moz-29FFE1B5.me)
  65. # [06:46] * Quits: Gijs (gijs@2557E599.66715431.D25A875A.IP) (Ping timeout)
  66. # [06:49] * Quits: nhirata (anonymous@moz-1A50F7F8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: nhirata)
  67. # [06:51] <@firebot> yura.zenevich@gmail.com requested feedback from eitan@monotonous. org for attachment 736122 on bug 811307.
  68. # [06:51] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=811307 nor, --, ---, yura.zenevich, NEW, [AccessFu] Add mochitest for enabling
  69. # [06:53] <@firebot> yura.zenevich@gmail.com requested feedback from eitan@monotonous. org for attachment 736123 on bug 811307.
  70. # [06:58] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  71. # [07:07] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@moz-D8A76420.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  72. # [07:18] <icaaq> lizzard: regarding marcoz geekmeet, we will stream the event here http://geekmeet.creuna.se/
  73. # [07:24] <lizzard> icaaq: awesome, thanks
  74. # [07:25] <icaaq> np :)
  75. # [07:30] * Quits: lizzard (ehenry@moz-5A4BE8E8.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Quit: lizzard)
  76. # [07:30] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@466CECCA.162B26E2.79933D60.IP)
  77. # [07:32] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@466CECCA.162B26E2.79933D60.IP) (Ping timeout)
  78. # [07:35] * Quits: @hub (hub@E639FEDB.F04051C4.DC1243F8.IP) (Ping timeout)
  79. # [07:39] * Joins: hub (hub@E639FEDB.F04051C4.DC1243F8.IP)
  80. # [07:39] * ChanServ sets mode: +o hub
  81. # [07:42] * Quits: peteb-away (ptbrunet@moz-B51E1692.austin.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout)
  82. # [08:11] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 736146 on bug 809338.
  83. # [08:11] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=809338 nor, --, ---, trev.saunders, NEW, make HTML select hierarchical
  84. # [08:12] * Quits: yzen (Adium@AA2C085E.10C8AEF8.9A8C35B4.IP) (Ping timeout)
  85. # [08:12] * Joins: yzen (Adium@AA2C085E.10C8AEF8.9A8C35B4.IP)
  86. # [08:14] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com cancelled review?(surkov.alexander@gm ail.com) for attachment 723778 on bug 809338.
  87. # [08:16] * Quits: yzen (Adium@AA2C085E.10C8AEF8.9A8C35B4.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
  88. # [08:20] <Jamie> surkov: hi. was just reading your blog post re accessible text
  89. # [08:20] <Jamie> surkov: this line concerns me: "Do not use embedded characters for inline elements."
  90. # [08:21] <Jamie> surkov: If i understand that correctly, it will *definitely* breka NVDA
  91. # [08:21] <@surkov> Jamie: oh
  92. # [08:21] <@surkov> Jamie: regardless of that do you think it's a good idea?
  93. # [08:21] <@surkov> to not use embedded chars for inlines
  94. # [08:22] <Jamie> surkov: that debate has been going on for years :) My belief has always been that if it's going to be done, we should go all the way and make the entire document one big flat text string
  95. # [08:22] <Jamie> I don't see the point in going half way
  96. # [08:22] <Jamie> I think I've ranteda bout this on a bug somewhere
  97. # [08:23] <@surkov> Jamie: inlines are different, for example, <p>hel<a>l</a>o</p> is one word
  98. # [08:23] <@surkov> but you can't detect it if inlines are embedded chars
  99. # [08:23] <Jamie> That depends. *Why* are the different?
  100. # [08:23] <Jamie> It might be one word, but <p>foo</p><p>bar</p> is one document
  101. # [08:23] <@surkov> Jamie: like example above
  102. # [08:23] <Jamie> so why is word so special?
  103. # [08:23] <Jamie> why line? why paragraph?
  104. # [08:23] <@surkov> it's two words in case of paragraphs
  105. # [08:24] <Jamie> right, but my point is that you're saying word is special somehow
  106. # [08:24] <@surkov> having a one text document might be a big perf issue
  107. # [08:24] <@surkov> inlines are different from blocks
  108. # [08:24] <Jamie> if you select two paragraphs, you have the same problem you always have with words
  109. # [08:24] <@surkov> since sibling inlines can create one word
  110. # [08:24] <Jamie> yes, but in terms of text, they can all be selected continuously
  111. # [08:25] <Jamie> So again, why is "word" special?
  112. # [08:25] <Jamie> I'm partly playing devil's advocate here, but that needs ot be answered before there's any real benefit
  113. # [08:25] <@surkov> in case of sibling paragraphs I guess you can ask them separately for selection
  114. # [08:25] <@surkov> in case of sibling inlines they can be a single word and there's no way to get it
  115. # [08:26] <Jamie> you could, but essentially, you have ot do the same fiddly evil stuff you've always had to do; it's just different units
  116. # [08:26] <Jamie> sure there is. it's just very difficult
  117. # [08:26] <Jamie> I'm not arguing that walking between objects is painful
  118. # [08:26] <Jamie> isn't
  119. # [08:26] <Jamie> it really is very painful
  120. # [08:27] <@surkov> Jamie: it means screen reader should decide where the word start and where it ends
  121. # [08:27] <Jamie> my point is that if you don't go the whole way, at some point, you have no choice but to do it
  122. # [08:27] <Jamie> that's not true
  123. # [08:27] <@surkov> why?
  124. # [08:27] <@surkov> how you can traverse by words in case of <p>hel<a>l</a>o</p>?
  125. # [08:27] <Jamie> the algorithm is hugely complicated, but basically, you ask the bottom object for its word offsets, go up, ask the embedding object for its word offsets, and walk around until you find the start and end
  126. # [08:28] <Jamie> it is utterly hideous
  127. # [08:28] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: you need to do it sometimes, but not always, for example if we say word is always within one accessible no embeded objects, then logic to read words can ignore embeded objects
  128. # [08:28] <@surkov> not sure I get this alg
  129. # [08:28] <Jamie> tbsaunde: that suggests that words are special :)
  130. # [08:29] <@surkov> oh, difference in offsets
  131. # [08:29] <Jamie> tbsaunde: in abstract code, words are the same as any other unit
  132. # [08:29] <Jamie> surkov: so in <p>a<a>b</a>c</p>
  133. # [08:29] <Jamie> and you're on b
  134. # [08:29] <Jamie> you ask the link for its word offsets for b. then you go up and ask the paragraph for its word offsets at that point
  135. # [08:30] <Jamie> so there's a lot of hopping in and out of objects
  136. # [08:30] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: word offsets? what method do you mean?
  137. # [08:30] <@surkov> getTextAtOffset i think
  138. # [08:31] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: sure, but practically I suspect words are a common case so making them fast is probably good
  139. # [08:31] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@466CECCA.162B26E2.79933D60.IP)
  140. # [08:31] <Jamie> IAccessible::textAtOffset
  141. # [08:32] <Jamie> tbsaunde: if it's entirely performance, thats probably a valid argument. but if you think it's going to make life simpler for AT, it isn't, because they still have to handle the complex object hopping for anything other than words
  142. # [08:32] <Jamie> I'll grant performance is important
  143. # [08:32] <Jamie> I just want ot make sure the reasons are clear
  144. # [08:32] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@466CECCA.162B26E2.79933D60.IP) (Ping timeout)
  145. # [08:32] <Jamie> This is *not* simpler or tidier for all cases, only for words, and therefore, it is purely performance
  146. # [08:33] <Jamie> I also suspect we'll have ot rewrite a large chunk of NVDA's vbuf backend, not sure about other ATs
  147. # [08:34] <Jamie> Right now, we walk into an embedded object and we can recurse to render it
  148. # [08:34] <Jamie> with this, we can't; the text comes from the parent node, but we need the object to get semantic info; e.g. perhaps aria-label overrides the text
  149. # [08:34] <@surkov> Jamie: so the problem is you don't support embedded objects having normal text (rather than embedded char)?
  150. # [08:35] <Jamie> surkov: not when the text is on the parent
  151. # [08:35] <Jamie> btw, what will IAccessibleText on the inline object return?
  152. # [08:35] <@surkov> I think the text
  153. # [08:35] <@surkov> of inline object
  154. # [08:36] <Jamie> in that case, I guess we can just ignore the text on the parent
  155. # [08:36] <@surkov> if it makes sense to implement IAccessibleText on it at all
  156. # [08:36] <Jamie> that would certainly be an easy change
  157. # [08:36] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: I was expecting we'd only do it for things where we don't need a child accessible, but I'm not the one writing it ;)
  158. # [08:37] <Jamie> btw, <p>Hel<a aria-label="wow">l</a>o</p> should be fun for ATs to handle
  159. # [08:37] <Jamie> tbsaunde: define "thigns where we don't need a child accessible"
  160. # [08:37] <Jamie> tbsaunde: you need a child accessible for everything if you don't want to lose data
  161. # [08:37] <Jamie> tbsaunde: if you don't, firefox already strips it as is
  162. # [08:37] <Jamie> <p>blah<span>blah</span></p>
  163. # [08:37] <Jamie> the span gets stripped
  164. # [08:38] <Jamie> surkov: certainly, if it's just performance, I do agree it'll be faster; it'll make our rich text code much faster once it's done
  165. # [08:38] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: <p>a<i>b</i></p> we can expose text attributes for only part of the text, and afaik one accessible should be fine
  166. # [08:39] <Jamie> tbsaunde: Firefox already does that
  167. # [08:40] <Jamie> surkov: just making sure you're aware that it isn't a "this makes life 500 times easier for ATs" kind of change :)
  168. # [08:40] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: so, its not terribly clear how the aria-label thing should work
  169. # [08:40] <Jamie> tbsaunde: yeah, tell me about it
  170. # [08:40] <@surkov> Jamie: yeah for old like you probably not :)
  171. # [08:41] <Jamie> surkov: mm, even me aside, it won't; as I said, you still have to do that evil stuff where multiple paragraphs are selected. it's just going higher
  172. # [08:41] <@surkov> anyway the logic should be simpler in case of words
  173. # [08:41] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: like ok, aria-label effects name, but if it effects text vallue as well then how do you get text attributes for it, and if not then why is it fun for ATs?
  174. # [08:41] <Jamie> surkov: I guess i sort of follow your argument re inline being different; paragraph offsets are always confined to one block element, line offsets must always be within one block
  175. # [08:42] <Jamie> surkov: oh, except inline-block. that gets *really* fun
  176. # [08:42] <@surkov> inline-block? I don't recall how these look like
  177. # [08:43] <Jamie> tbsaunde: because people have this belief that aria-label should always override content
  178. # [08:43] <Jamie> tbsaunde: so in that case, we see a word, then we descend and find there's an aria-label
  179. # [08:44] <Jamie> tbsaunde: in other words, you always have ot descend anyway to check whether something might have overridden that area of text
  180. # [08:44] <@surkov> that'd be crazy
  181. # [08:45] <@surkov> I agree you should announce that aria-label on tabbing
  182. # [08:45] <@surkov> but using it instead text seems crazy
  183. # [08:45] <Jamie> surkov: I used ot agree with you, but it is expected now
  184. # [08:46] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: so, happens if I do <p>text <b>some <span aria-label="foo">more</span> text</b></p> and I ask for text attributes of the stuff in the span?
  185. # [08:46] <@surkov> well, I nothing understand in screen readers :)
  186. # [08:46] <@surkov> sometimes
  187. # [08:46] <Jamie> surkov: it's not us, trust me
  188. # [08:46] <@surkov> I believe
  189. # [08:46] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: I doubt orca does that, but would need to check fwiw
  190. # [08:46] <Jamie> surkov: I'd argue it is incorrect use of aria-label
  191. # [08:46] <Jamie> but apparently, the spec disagrees
  192. # [08:46] <@surkov> which spec?
  193. # [08:46] <Jamie> tbsaunde: we provide no attributes; we can't
  194. # [08:47] <@surkov> UAIG?
  195. # [08:47] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: specs usually have bugs :)
  196. # [08:47] <Jamie> well, ARIA suggests aria-label should be reported by ATs
  197. # [08:47] <Jamie> consider something like a div with a background image
  198. # [08:47] <Jamie> authors use aria-label to give it a label
  199. # [08:48] <Jamie> so we get cool stuff like <a aria-label="Widgets"><br></a>
  200. # [08:48] <@surkov> I see
  201. # [08:48] <Jamie> but it's a web document, so reading it on tab is not enough; you also need to read it while doing caret navigation.
  202. # [08:49] <@surkov> I'm curious how AT can maintain caret navigation inside aria-label
  203. # [08:49] <Jamie> they can't. that's why windows ATs use virtual buffers. despite all the flack we get for it, it provides a superior caret navigation experience
  204. # [08:50] <Jamie> well, that's one of the reasons :)
  205. # [08:50] <@surkov> it's something new for me I think
  206. # [08:51] <Jamie> surkov: but yeah, on the earlier topic, I guess doing this does mean we cna guarantee that a unit won't ever cross two objects
  207. # [08:51] * Quits: logbot (logbot@moz-58CB32ED.glob.com.au) (Ping timeout)
  208. # [08:51] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: I might be ok supporting authors providing text somehow, but not with aria-label like that
  209. # [08:51] <@surkov> Jamie: what does it mean sorry?
  210. # [08:51] <Jamie> surkov: paragraphs are always one block, lines are always inside one object, words are always inside one object
  211. # [08:52] <Jamie> I guess that does simplify the code a bit; it's one guarantee we never had
  212. # [08:52] <Jamie> it'd certainly cause me less headaches in the rich text editing stuff
  213. # [08:52] <@surkov> Jamie: if you mean accessible object then no, but if you mean accessible text then yes
  214. # [08:52] * Joins: logbot (logbot@moz-58CB32ED.glob.com.au)
  215. # [08:52] <Jamie> I mean text, yeah
  216. # [08:52] <@surkov> we keep the same hierarchy
  217. # [08:52] <@surkov> ok
  218. # [08:52] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: so, what happens if I do aria-label="foo bar\nbaz" ?
  219. # [08:52] <Jamie> err, is that even valid html?
  220. # [08:53] <Jamie> tbsaunde: the core problem si that authors and spec writers seme ot have this impression that screen reader users just tab around everywhere
  221. # [08:53] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: its a string why not?
  222. # [08:54] <Jamie> tbsaunde: afaik HTML strings don't permit backslash escapes like that
  223. # [08:54] <Jamie> they're just literal
  224. # [08:55] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: sure, so you just read \n, but what about spaces how do you handle navigating by words there?
  225. # [08:55] <Jamie> tbsaunde: Windows ATs don't use firefox caret navigation
  226. # [08:55] <Jamie> tbsaunde: we render the entire document into a buffer and handle the lot ourselves
  227. # [08:55] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: you still need to know where the words stop and end
  228. # [08:56] <Jamie> so we use an algorithm :)
  229. # [08:56] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: its crazy we and you both have an algorithm for that
  230. # [08:56] <Jamie> so in browse mode, lines and words don't agree with firefox's own idea of lines and words
  231. # [08:57] <Jamie> tbsaunde: sure, but what choice did we have? firefox's caret nav is still dodgy at best
  232. # [08:57] <Jamie> and that applies ot every other browser
  233. # [08:57] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: how is caret nav involved with finding word boundaries?
  234. # [08:58] <Jamie> tbsaunde: if we have ot render the whole document ourselves, it's easier to just handle everything ourselves
  235. # [08:58] * Quits: Jesse (jruderman@2557E599.66715431.D25A875A.IP) (Quit: Jesse)
  236. # [08:58] <Jamie> tbsaunde: so we suck up the document and then do our own navigation
  237. # [08:58] <Jamie> tbsaunde: checking for word offsets for every word would be a perf hit
  238. # [08:59] <Jamie> btw, we now use Windows Uniscribe to do the word finding logic, so at least we're using a common lib :)
  239. # [08:59] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: then it seems like the whole thing is a shit show and we just shouldn't bother?
  240. # [08:59] <Jamie> tbsaunde: shouldn't bother with what?
  241. # [09:00] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: more or less any text api
  242. # [09:00] <Jamie> tbsaunde: not quite
  243. # [09:00] <Jamie> tbsaunde: first, we need text attributes for browse mode
  244. # [09:00] <Jamie> tbsaunde: second, we don't use browse mode for *editable* text
  245. # [09:01] <Jamie> tbsaunde: third, orca needs this for both browsing and editing
  246. # [09:01] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: so, then what happens if I have <div contenteditable="true"> <a aria-label="foo">bar</a> ... </div> ?
  247. # [09:01] <Jamie> tbsaunde: ah. I have no idea.
  248. # [09:01] <Jamie> tbsaunde: NVDA doesn't support contentEditable very well. I gave up on that months ago due to bugs in Firefox's text implementation
  249. # [09:02] <Jamie> so in thunderbird, I can't write HTMl email
  250. # [09:02] <Jamie> tbsaunde: my comment re aria-label was more related to browsing. as far as editing goes, I think we'd ignore the aria-label; that's my feeling at this stage
  251. # [09:02] <Jamie> unless perhaps it was just a one character object
  252. # [09:03] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: I guess I'm miss understanding you, but my impression was you couldn't use our text support even if it didn't have bugs because of things it doesn't do like aria-label
  253. # [09:03] <Jamie> tbsaunde: someone in the ARIA spec community will shoot me for saying that, in which case they can provide a patch which fixes firefox, NVDA and the spec
  254. # [09:04] <Jamie> tbsaunde: errg. no, sorry. That was more of a side observation.
  255. # [09:04] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: ignoring it in one case butt not the other sounds crazy
  256. # [09:04] <Jamie> tbsaunde: In a land where only theory applies, I totally agree
  257. # [09:04] <Jamie> tbsaunde: however, the reality is that we generally edit things that are far less complex than we browse
  258. # [09:05] <Jamie> tbsaunde: I doubt you'd write a fully fledged web app using contentEditable alone
  259. # [09:05] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: except google docs / ether pad / the msft thing (office 360?)
  260. # [09:06] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: no, but you might write a word processor type thing
  261. # [09:06] <Jamie> even there, you don't tend ot do things like create a button with a background image and then replace it with an accessible label
  262. # [09:06] <Jamie> you might create4 a graphic, but that's okay, since a graphic is only one character
  263. # [09:06] <Jamie> another example is MathJax. they're trying to make math accessible by using aria-label
  264. # [09:07] <Jamie> it sucks, but since we don't have any way to do maths via a11y APIs, it's better than nothing
  265. # [09:07] <Jamie> so, <span aria-label="x^2">blah blah blah mathml here</span>
  266. # [09:07] * Jamie would love to know what Firefox caret nav does with MathML
  267. # [09:08] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: we should just come up with a reasonable api
  268. # [09:08] <Jamie> tbsaunde: we've been saying that for about 6 years now
  269. # [09:08] <Jamie> tbsaunde: no one has the funding, the resources or the people from different walks of life willing ot sit down and agree on anything
  270. # [09:08] * Joins: Jesse (jruderman@moz-537BCF9.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  271. # [09:09] <Jamie> tbsaunde: believe me, I'm not being painful. I agree with you. but it just hasn't happened and I don't see it happening any time soon
  272. # [09:09] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: that may be, but aria-label= isn't really a solution, though it may be a somewhat working hack for simple cases
  273. # [09:09] <Jamie> tbsaunde: we find it hard enough to find funding to keep NVDA alive let alone do stuff like this
  274. # [09:09] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: sure
  275. # [09:11] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: my point is consider what to do with \sum_{i=0}^{k} \frac{i}{(k-1)!}
  276. # [09:11] <Jamie> tbsaunde: if you care, http://community.nvda-project.org/ticket/1354 http://community.nvda-project.org/ticket/1362 http://community.nvda-project.org/ticket/2963
  277. # [09:12] <Jamie> those are all cases of people wanting aria-label or similar to be rendered instead of the real content
  278. # [09:12] <Jamie> I fought them for months
  279. # [09:12] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: maybe someday :) (proving your point sort of I know, but on other hand, maybe somebody with the need will decide to do it if they have no hacky alternative)
  280. # [09:13] <Jamie> Puristic and practical is a really hard balance
  281. # [09:13] <Jamie> Just recently, a site just had <a></a> with a background image and onClick logic
  282. # [09:13] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: so nnow there thing works in nvda, and maybe some comercial screen reader probably not orca and who knows about safari / mobile stuff
  283. # [09:13] <Jamie> I couldn't really use it, so I emailed and asked for aria-label
  284. # [09:14] <Jamie> without that option, it would ahve been "fix your link to have real content!" "but we don't want the text showing up on screen!" "so use off screen... oh wait, that's a terrible hack... um... use... something..."
  285. # [09:15] <Jamie> safari always takes aria-label
  286. # [09:15] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: true
  287. # [09:15] <Jamie> btw, what I haven't worked out is what the hell to do if someone does <div aria-label="blah">the entire body of the document here</div>
  288. # [09:16] <Jamie> I need to throw that at some supposed aria experts
  289. # [09:16] * Joins: marcoz (marco.zehe@moz-9D111104.dip.t-dialin.net)
  290. # [09:16] <Jamie> their response will doubtless be "don't override the content with aria-label". "oh, but you said aria-label should override the link name in all cases"
  291. # [09:16] * ChanServ sets mode: +o marcoz
  292. # [09:16] <@marcoz> Morning all!
  293. # [09:17] <Jamie> The ARIA community irritates me a great deal because of stuff like this
  294. # [09:17] <Jamie> marcoz: morning!
  295. # [09:20] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: == to the extent I have experience with them, but tbh I'm not sure what a reasonable API would be
  296. # [09:20] <Jamie> tbsaunde: oh, I'm not always sure either. it's just that they don't seem to understand the subtle complexities and then they get all "you should support the standard properly" when we don't do something right
  297. # [09:21] <Jamie> John Foliot has actually been known to suggest that no one should support NV Access at all because we didn't want to implement longdesc initially
  298. # [09:22] <@tbsaunde> Jamie: oic O.O
  299. # [09:26] <@marcoz> Jamie: WHAT? He actually said that? Unbelievable….
  300. # [09:29] <Jamie> marcoz: not quite those words. basically, he sent an email to the person managing html5accessibility.com saying that NVDA shouldn't be mentioned on the site because we don't support standards
  301. # [09:29] <Jamie> marcoz: think it was Steve Faulkner. I believe the response was fairly bluntly "no"
  302. # [09:31] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@466CECCA.162B26E2.79933D60.IP)
  303. # [09:32] <@marcoz> Thankfully so! Everybody is making such a big fuzz about longdesc. I'm quite indifferent myself, but it is a topic having people up in arms about it.
  304. # [09:33] <@tbsaunde> marcoz: guess we should service now you some more popcorn if your going to pay attention
  305. # [09:33] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@466CECCA.162B26E2.79933D60.IP) (Ping timeout)
  306. # [09:33] * @tbsaunde thread deletes bug mail when he sees bug numbers for longdesc
  307. # [09:37] <@marcoz> tbsaunde: I actually am not watching it too closely, but thanks for the offer. ;)
  308. # [10:06] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@466CECCA.162B26E2.79933D60.IP)
  309. # [10:18] * Quits: Jamie (Instantbir@moz-CA26021.jantrid.net) (Quit: Instantbird 1.4a1pre -- http://www.instantbird.com)
  310. # [10:19] * Joins: rednaks (rednaks@24067163.74C6FD40.360EF119.IP)
  311. # [10:52] <@firebot> marco.zehe@googlemail.com set status-firefox22 to fixed on bug 857936.
  312. # [10:53] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=857936 nor, --, mozilla23, surkov.alexander, RESO FIXED, ARIA columnheader/rowheader should inherit editable state
  313. # [11:06] * Joins: habber (habber@514D186.F3BBB17D.144F44FA.IP)
  314. # [11:40] * Quits: rednaks (rednaks@24067163.74C6FD40.360EF119.IP) (Ping timeout)
  315. # [12:01] * Quits: @surkov (surkov@B3C081AC.7AE20955.EBE09E3C.IP) (Quit: surkov)
  316. # [12:04] * Quits: @marcoz (marco.zehe@moz-9D111104.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  317. # [12:18] * Joins: rednaks (rednaks@24067163.74C6FD40.360EF119.IP)
  318. # [12:43] * Joins: surkov (surkov@B3C081AC.7AE20955.EBE09E3C.IP)
  319. # [12:43] * ChanServ sets mode: +o surkov
  320. # [13:19] * Quits: rednaks (rednaks@24067163.74C6FD40.360EF119.IP) (Ping timeout)
  321. # [13:34] * Joins: scott_gonzalez (scott_gonz@moz-91C81A39.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net)
  322. # [14:04] * Quits: @surkov (surkov@B3C081AC.7AE20955.EBE09E3C.IP) (Quit: surkov)
  323. # [14:15] * Joins: surkov (surkov@B3C081AC.7AE20955.EBE09E3C.IP)
  324. # [14:15] * ChanServ sets mode: +o surkov
  325. # [14:18] * Joins: yzen (Adium@AA2C085E.10C8AEF8.9A8C35B4.IP)
  326. # [14:18] * Joins: Justin_o (Justin_o@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
  327. # [14:27] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested needinfo from marco.zehe@google mail.com on bug 809338.
  328. # [14:27] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=809338 nor, --, ---, trev.saunders, NEW, make HTML select hierarchical
  329. # [14:43] * Joins: rednaks (rednaks@24067163.74C6FD40.360EF119.IP)
  330. # [14:55] * Quits: rednaks (rednaks@24067163.74C6FD40.360EF119.IP) (Ping timeout)
  331. # [14:55] * Joins: davidb (davidb@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
  332. # [14:55] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo davidb davidb
  333. # [14:56] * Joins: rednaks (rednaks@24067163.74C6FD40.360EF119.IP)
  334. # [14:56] <@davidb> heyo!
  335. # [14:56] * @davidb ->coffee
  336. # [15:04] * Joins: marcoz (marco.zehe@moz-9D111104.dip.t-dialin.net)
  337. # [15:05] * ChanServ sets mode: +o marcoz
  338. # [15:05] <@marcoz> Good day all!
  339. # [15:06] * Quits: rednaks (rednaks@24067163.74C6FD40.360EF119.IP) (Client exited)
  340. # [15:06] * Quits: @surkov (surkov@B3C081AC.7AE20955.EBE09E3C.IP) (Quit: surkov)
  341. # [15:07] * Joins: clown (clown@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
  342. # [15:07] <@firebot> yura.zenevich@gmail.com cancelled feedback?(eitan@monotonous. org) for attachment 736122 on bug 811307.
  343. # [15:07] <@firebot> yura.zenevich@gmail.com requested feedback from eitan@monotonous. org for attachment 736260 on bug 811307.
  344. # [15:07] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=811307 nor, --, ---, yura.zenevich, NEW, [AccessFu] Add mochitest for enabling
  345. # [15:08] <@firebot> yura.zenevich@gmail.com cancelled feedback?(eitan@monotonous. org) for attachment 736123 on bug 811307.
  346. # [15:08] <@firebot> yura.zenevich@gmail.com requested feedback from eitan@monotonous. org for attachment 736262 on bug 811307.
  347. # [15:10] <yzen> marcoz: thank for spotting those issues, i updated the patches :)
  348. # [15:11] <yzen> marcoz: by the way, I also tested it on the device and it seems to work as before
  349. # [15:15] <@marcoz> yzen: Thanks! I will do a test run of my own later today, too. :)
  350. # [15:17] * @davidb gulps coffee
  351. # [15:19] * Joins: peteb-away (ptbrunet@moz-B51E1692.austin.res.rr.com)
  352. # [15:22] * Joins: rednaks (rednaks@24067163.74C6FD40.360EF119.IP)
  353. # [16:06] * clown is now known as clown_mtg
  354. # [16:24] * Joins: lizzard (ehenry@moz-5A4BE8E8.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  355. # [16:28] * Quits: rednaks (rednaks@24067163.74C6FD40.360EF119.IP) (Quit: Téléportation !)
  356. # [16:36] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@moz-D8A76420.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Ping timeout)
  357. # [16:38] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@moz-D8A76420.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  358. # [16:43] * Joins: nhirata (anonymous@moz-1A50F7F8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  359. # [17:10] * Quits: a-865 (fmcz@moz-8F21088B.cable.mindspring.com) (Ping timeout)
  360. # [17:15] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Assignee on bug 860013 from nobody@mozilla.org to surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  361. # [17:15] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 736300 on bug 860013.
  362. # [17:15] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=860013 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, NEW, navigation by words broken with orca
  363. # [17:17] * Quits: Justin_o (Justin_o@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP) (Quit: Justin_o)
  364. # [17:18] * Quits: @marcoz (marco.zehe@moz-9D111104.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  365. # [17:22] * Quits: lizzard (ehenry@moz-5A4BE8E8.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Quit: lizzard)
  366. # [17:26] * Joins: Justin_o (Justin_o@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
  367. # [17:27] * Joins: lizzard (ehenry@moz-5A4BE8E8.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  368. # [17:29] * Joins: marcoz (marco.zehe@moz-9D111104.dip.t-dialin.net)
  369. # [17:33] * Quits: habber (habber@514D186.F3BBB17D.144F44FA.IP) (Quit: habber)
  370. # [17:36] * Quits: nhirata (anonymous@moz-1A50F7F8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout)
  371. # [17:39] * Joins: nhirata (anonymous@moz-1A50F7F8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  372. # [17:41] <@firebot> marco.zehe@googlemail.com cancelled needinfo?(marco.zehe@google mail.com) on bug 809338.
  373. # [17:41] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=809338 nor, --, ---, trev.saunders, NEW, make HTML select hierarchical
  374. # [17:44] * Quits: Justin_o (Justin_o@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP) (Quit: Justin_o)
  375. # [17:45] * Joins: Justin_o (Justin_o@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
  376. # [18:03] * Quits: nhirata (anonymous@moz-1A50F7F8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout)
  377. # [18:12] * Quits: marcoz (marco.zehe@moz-9D111104.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout)
  378. # [18:23] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
  379. # [18:29] * Quits: yzen (Adium@AA2C085E.10C8AEF8.9A8C35B4.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
  380. # [18:45] * Quits: clown_mtg (clown@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
  381. # [18:57] * Joins: clown (clown@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
  382. # [18:57] * clown is now known as clown_mtg
  383. # [19:04] * Joins: Gijs (gijs@2557E599.66715431.D25A875A.IP)
  384. # [19:05] * Quits: @davidb (davidb@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Ping timeout)
  385. # [19:05] * Joins: davidb (davidb@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
  386. # [19:05] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo davidb davidb
  387. # [19:12] * Joins: yzen (Adium@AA2C085E.10C8AEF8.9A8C35B4.IP)
  388. # [19:14] * Joins: rednaks (rednaks@77F0CB85.5C1AD644.55FFA9B4.IP)
  389. # [19:28] * Joins: a-865 (fmcz@moz-8F21088B.cable.mindspring.com)
  390. # [19:44] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@moz-D8A76420.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Ping timeout)
  391. # [19:44] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@moz-D8A76420.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  392. # [20:25] * clown_mtg is now known as clwon
  393. # [20:25] * clwon is now known as clown
  394. # [20:29] * Quits: Justin_o (Justin_o@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP) (Quit: Justin_o)
  395. # [20:31] * Joins: nhirata (anonymous@moz-C03D0C61.vlan426.asr1.sfo1.gblx.net)
  396. # [20:31] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@moz-D8A76420.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Ping timeout)
  397. # [20:32] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@moz-D8A76420.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  398. # [20:34] * Quits: clown (clown@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
  399. # [20:40] * Joins: clown (clown@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
  400. # [20:46] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  401. # [20:57] * Quits: @davidb (davidb@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Ping timeout)
  402. # [20:57] * Joins: davidb (davidb@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
  403. # [20:57] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo davidb davidb
  404. # [21:42] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
  405. # [21:55] * Quits: brambles (xymox@moz-969AAE9B.barwen.ch) (Ping timeout)
  406. # [21:57] * Joins: brambles (xymox@moz-969AAE9B.barwen.ch)
  407. # [22:19] * Joins: fxa90id (fxa90id@moz-D8C47538.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl)
  408. # [22:29] <@firebot> gavin.sharp@gmail.com requested review from jaws@mozilla.com for attachment 735620 on bug 448945.
  409. # [22:29] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=448945 enh, P4, Future, nobody, NEW, minimum font size should offer 32
  410. # [22:41] * Quits: @davidb (davidb@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Quit: davidb)
  411. # [22:56] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@moz-D8A76420.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: Leaving.)
  412. # [22:57] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@moz-D8A76420.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  413. # [23:02] * Parts: clown (clown@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
  414. # [23:06] * Quits: yzen (Adium@AA2C085E.10C8AEF8.9A8C35B4.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
  415. # [23:15] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com changed the Component on bug 860913 from Disability Access APIs to DOM.
  416. # [23:15] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=860913 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Fix MSVC build warnings in content/html/content/src/ and mark it as FAIL_ON_WARNINGS-for-all-compile
  417. # [23:15] <@firebot> jaws@mozilla.com granted review for attachment 735620 on bug 448945.
  418. # [23:15] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=448945 enh, P4, Future, nobody, NEW, minimum font size should offer 32
  419. # [23:16] <@firebot> jaws@mozilla.com changed the Assignee on bug 448945 from nobody@mozilla.org to cykesiopka@hotmail.com.
  420. # [23:16] <@firebot> jaws@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 448945 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
  421. # [23:17] <@firebot> jaws@mozilla.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 448945 from Future to ---.
  422. # [23:46] * Quits: Gijs (gijs@2557E599.66715431.D25A875A.IP) (Quit: brb)
  423. # [23:48] * Joins: yzen (Adium@AA2C085E.10C8AEF8.9A8C35B4.IP)
  424. # [23:48] * Quits: scott_gonzalez (scott_gonz@moz-91C81A39.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net) (Quit: scott_gonzalez)
  425. # Session Close: Fri Apr 12 00:00:01 2013

The end :)