/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2013-04-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 24 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  6. # [00:38] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 865023 filed by eitan@monotonous.org.
  7. # [00:38] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=865023 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] Streamline preference getting and observing
  8. # [00:40] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 865026 filed by eitan@monotonous.org.
  9. # [00:40] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=865026 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] Make it possible to observe AccessFu output
  10. # [00:42] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from dbolter@mozilla.com for attachment 741064 on bug 865026.
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  25. # [03:25] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com granted in-testsuite on bug 811307.
  26. # [03:25] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Resolution on bug 811307 from --- to FIXED.
  27. # [03:25] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 811307 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  28. # [03:25] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 811307 from --- to mozilla23.
  29. # [03:25] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=811307 nor, --, mozilla23, yura.zenevich, RESO FIXED, [AccessFu] Add mochitest for enabling
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  77. # [14:33] <yzen> marcoz: hi
  78. # [14:37] <@marcoz> yzen: Hi! Congrats on level 3 commit access! :)
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  80. # [14:37] <yzen> marcoz: thanks for vouching :)
  81. # [14:37] <yzen> marcoz: i was hoping you could clarify bug 845870 for me, i think i get the idea, i just wanted to confirm what i think needs to happen
  82. # [14:37] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=845870 nor, --, ---, yura.zenevich, NEW, [AccessFu] Trust explicitly associated names when speaking certain elements
  83. # [14:37] <@marcoz> yzen: And thanks for also taking over and improving on bug 811307 and finishing it! :)
  84. # [14:38] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=811307 nor, --, mozilla23, yura.zenevich, RESO FIXED, [AccessFu] Add mochitest for enabling
  85. # [14:39] <yzen> marcoz: so you mention button and links in the first comment, so is it just those 2 element types or all of them if they have an explicite-name ?
  86. # [14:39] <@marcoz> yzen: When an author specifies aria-label or something similar on an element, this is what we call an explicit name. Other names, like in a link that contains text, the name is calculated implicitly, from looking at the sub tree etc. There is an object attribute that specifies whether the acc.name was obtained from an implicit or explicit mechanism.
  87. # [14:40] <yzen> marcoz: ok so all of them, got it
  88. # [14:40] <yzen> marcoz: so the solution would be stop building utterance from ancestors if name is explicit ?
  89. # [14:40] <@marcoz> yzen: The attribute was introduced in bug 637578.
  90. # [14:40] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=637578 nor, --, mozilla19, surkov.alexander, RESO FIXED, Expose how accessible name was determined
  91. # [14:41] <yzen> and report that name instead? yes i read through that one
  92. # [14:42] <@marcoz> No, the ancestry would still be needed. But the actual name of the item the pivot lands on may differ from its inner text versus the explicit name. We would sometimes still look at the inner text instead of the acc.name. This attribute helps in telling us to not look at the descendants, but use whatever acc.name provides regardless.
  93. # [14:43] <yzen> marcoz: sorry , ya i meant descendants not ancestors :)
  94. # [14:43] <@marcoz> so if you have <button aria-label="Meaningful label"blah /button, AccessFu currently would still say "blah" instead of "Meaningful label". With this attribute, AccessFu can decide to use the label instead.
  95. # [14:46] <yzen> marcoz: ok gotcha and I assume that it does not matter if include attribute flag is set for that element as long as the explicit name is true we still report it right ?
  96. # [14:46] <yzen> for utterance that is
  97. # [14:47] <@marcoz> yzen: Correct!
  98. # [14:47] <@marcoz> Attributes such as role and states should still be reported regardless and the general rule applies. This is explicitly for the name bit.
  99. # [14:49] <yzen> marcoz: awesome, thanks for clarifying all that, i have a clear picture now :)
  100. # [14:51] <@marcoz> yzen: Thanks for asking such good questions! makes it a real joy to mentor! :)
  101. # [14:51] <yzen> :)
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  104. # [15:00] <@davidb> heyo
  105. # [15:01] <@hub> hola
  106. # [15:02] <@marcoz> Hi davidb!
  107. # [15:02] <@davidb> hi hi
  108. # [15:08] * Gijs waves
  109. # [15:15] <@davidb> heyo
  110. # [15:15] <@davidb> marcoz: back to tips eh? cool!
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  112. # [15:16] <@marcoz> davidb: Yes. And this one was actually kind of a preamble to another, bigger, blog post building in the back of my head. The do's and dont's of mobile accessibility. Concrete example is the ExFM iOS app that went from native to HTML via Phonegap and has some severe accessibility issues.
  113. # [15:17] <@davidb> cool. I hope it is pro HTML in the end :)
  114. # [15:20] <@marcoz> davidb: Oh, this is going to be all about HTML! About techniques to make sure the HTML is probably accessible on touch screens. Like using visibility:hidden; for stuff that truly needs to be hidden because it is currently not in view, etc.
  115. # [15:20] <@davidb> i figured.
  116. # [15:20] <@davidb> i'm just thinking about how it is all for free with native
  117. # [15:21] <@davidb> so people might find the HTML route complicated
  118. # [15:21] <@davidb> but that's life
  119. # [15:21] <Gijs> don't the gaia folks have a component lib thingummywhatsit that they suggest people use to build apps?
  120. # [15:21] <Gijs> Would be interesting if we can build some of this into that
  121. # [15:21] <Gijs> that'd make it almost-free again.
  122. # [15:22] <Gijs> also, I'd probably argue there are a gazillion ways to hide content using HTML/CSS, and some of them are accessible and some of them are not...
  123. # [15:23] <Gijs> picking the right one is "more effort" but wouldn't that be the case on native as well?
  124. # [15:23] <Gijs> If you roll your own for any feature provided by native components (because it doesn't implement a particular feature you need, or because it's too slow, or...), you may need to reimplement the a11y features of that component, too.
  125. # [15:24] <@marcoz> Gijs: eeejay and I are working through the GAIA component library to do just that. But nobody is forced to use those components.
  126. # [15:25] <Gijs> marcoz: right, but that's true for native as well...
  127. # [15:25] <@davidb> Gijs: making js toolkits accessible is a good strategy
  128. # [15:25] <Gijs> iOS and Android provide a gazillion different components
  129. # [15:25] <@davidb> vanilla guide obviously still useful
  130. # [15:25] <Gijs> but all of that is also extensible, and if you do extend builtin stuff to do things "your way", you're going to have the same issues.
  131. # [15:26] <@marcoz> Gijs: And you do get stuff for free on iOS and Android that you really have to think about in HTML and CSS. If you switch views, the old view automatically gets hidden. Only if you slide something over something else in a particular fashion, things may sometimes not be hidden completely, but that's just one technique.
  132. # [15:26] <@marcoz> Gijs: In HTML and CSS, if you know you have to use display: none; or visibility: hidden;, you already have to make a choice which one to use. To screen readers, they're the same, but the implications on a visual and performance level are quite different.
  133. # [15:27] <Gijs> sure
  134. # [15:27] <@marcoz> Gijs: The common pattern found in GAIA is to simply push to a negative z axis value. That does not hide things from screen readers, but does the trick nicely on visual.
  135. # [15:27] <Gijs> ah.
  136. # [15:27] <Gijs> Why do they not actually use display: none or visibility: hidden?
  137. # [15:27] <Gijs> Only for perf?
  138. # [15:28] <@davidb> going offline to hunt phone room
  139. # [15:29] <@marcoz> Gijs: Don't know actually.
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  141. # [15:29] <Gijs> marcoz: might want to ask. :)
  142. # [15:30] <@marcoz> Gijs: eeejay may already know the answer to that question. Hoping to catch him later. Also display: none; has reflow, whereas visibility: hidden; does not I think.
  143. # [15:31] <Gijs> marcoz: right, but visibility: hidden will affect layout of other elements if the element is not taken out of the flow (eg. by pos: abs), and display: none won't.
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  148. # [15:54] <@marcoz> Gijs: I will definitely talk this one through with eeejay, and also show you the draft if you like, before publishing it. All these visual aspects still mystify me a lot.
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  151. # [15:57] <Gijs> marcoz: mm, makes sense. An easy example runs like this: <p>This is <span style="visibility: hidden">not </span> a good idea</p>
  152. # [15:58] <@davidb> that is self referential markup
  153. # [15:58] <@davidb> ;)
  154. # [15:58] <Gijs> marcoz: in this example, the word "not" leaves a visual gap between "is" and "a" - that is, the user will see a bit of empty space the size of the bit that's hidden ("not ")
  155. # [15:58] <Gijs> marcoz: if you used display: none instead, there wouldn't be such a gap.
  156. # [15:58] <Gijs> davidb: I try, I try...
  157. # [15:58] <Gijs> ;)
  158. # [16:00] <Gijs> marcoz: I'm not sure I'm the right person to be reviewing stuff, but feel free to send me the link and if I have some time I'll give it a read :)
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  160. # [16:01] <icaaq1> marcoz: I could have a look at it as well, if you like :)
  161. # [16:01] * icaaq1 is now known as icaaq
  162. # [16:02] <@marcoz> Gijs: Well if it comes to choosing between z-axis −5 or visibility: hidden;, the effect should be the same reflow-wise. They may not want a re-flow, but hide stuff, so visibility: hidden; may be what they'd want to use in this case.
  163. # [16:02] <Gijs> marcoz: possibly, yes. :)
  164. # [16:02] <@marcoz> icaaq: Thanks! May just take you up on that! ;)
  165. # [16:16] <@eeejay> hi hi
  166. # [16:18] <@marcoz> Hi eeejay!
  167. # [16:18] <@eeejay> marcoz, hey
  168. # [16:27] <@hub> there is no team meeting, is there?
  169. # [16:27] <@eeejay> it would be awesome if there was. i am in jet lag induced office hours
  170. # [16:27] <@davidb> you guys can meet :)
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  172. # [16:28] <@hub> we met last week ;-)
  173. # [16:28] <@hub> IRL
  174. # [16:28] <@davidb> the best way
  175. # [16:28] <@hub> yup
  176. # [16:28] <@eeejay> oh.. right
  177. # [16:30] <@eeejay> davidb, have any immediate thoughts about bug 865026?
  178. # [16:30] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=865026 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] Make it possible to observe AccessFu output
  179. # [16:30] <@eeejay> no rush
  180. # [16:39] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com granted review for attachment 741064 on bug 865026.
  181. # [16:44] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 865240 filed by surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  182. # [16:44] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=865240 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, fix IUnknown implementation
  183. # [16:51] <@davidb> eeejay: you might want to ask yzen for feedback
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  187. # [17:08] <@eeejay> what do folks here know about festival tts vs espeak?
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  189. # [17:18] <@marcoz> eeejay: Nothing. I thought Festival was English-only, for one thing. But the only time I tried it and found it unbearably terrible even in English was six years ago when I was playing with Gnome for the first time.
  190. # [17:19] <@eeejay> marcoz, want to play with festival and flite and get a current opinion? espeak might not be properly licensed for us to bundle
  191. # [17:19] <@marcoz> eeejay: Is it available on any platform for me to play with? Like Win or Android?
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  193. # [17:30] <@eeejay> marcoz, probably dunno
  194. # [17:30] <@marcoz> eeejay: Found an online demo. It only speaks English, one dialect of Spanish and one Austrian German dialect. And whatever voice I choose, the sound isn't nice at all. Pico is better and I believe has more languages.
  195. # [17:30] <@eeejay> marcoz, i am playing with it here in linux. and it looks like it is still lacking on the language front
  196. # [17:30] <@eeejay> marcoz, yeah..
  197. # [17:31] <@eeejay> thats too bad
  198. # [17:31] <@marcoz> Yup, wouldn't consider this an alternative.
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  207. # [17:52] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: I seem to remember it having a bunch of voices, and you used some tcp protocol to talk to it
  208. # [17:52] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, festival? yeah. any other voices besides english ones? they have this whole suite of tools for producing them, but almost no other languages
  209. # [17:53] <@tbsaunde> or maybe there was some other way involving child processes or something, but I only know things from working on speech-dispatcher and have cache evicted most of that stuff
  210. # [17:53] <@eeejay> there is also flite for the resource conscious among us. but it has the same language problem.
  211. # [17:53] <@tbsaunde> some european stuff? hungarian maybe? istr it being very important to the freebsoft people
  212. # [17:53] <@marcoz> Someone on Twitter just said that I am making accessibility accessible with "some easy as hell tips". OMG!
  213. # [17:54] <@eeejay> hm
  214. # [17:55] <@eeejay> if it had good Portuguese, then it would be worthwhile
  215. # [17:56] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: there's a bunch of voices according to apt-cache search festival
  216. # [17:57] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, fedora suggests that the few language packages are mostly english accents and a male/female pair for spanish
  217. # [18:00] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: I'm seeing atleast russian fin italian check in addition to those here)
  218. # [18:01] <@tbsaunde> oh hindi and some things I don't recognize
  219. # [18:03] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, interesting..
  220. # [18:03] <@marcoz> Indeed, because the demos on the home page only list the English, a Spanish and an Austrian German voice.
  221. # [18:03] <@marcoz> And at least the German isn't impressive at all.
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  223. # [18:13] <@eeejay> looks like we are stuck with pico
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  243. # [19:37] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org changed the Assignee on bug 865026 from nobody@mozilla.org to eitan@monotonous.org.
  244. # [19:37] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=865026 nor, --, ---, eitan, NEW, [AccessFu] Make it possible to observe AccessFu output
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  246. # [20:00] * darkowlzz|afk is now known as darkowlzz
  247. # [20:01] <@hub> davidb: 1:1?
  248. # [20:02] <@davidb> yep! hub i'm in my vid room
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  251. # [20:17] <@davidb> eeejay: i suspected germ would be the one to respond on the licensing side
  252. # [20:17] <@davidb> gerv
  253. # [20:17] <@davidb> haha autocorrect
  254. # [20:20] <@hub> lol
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  259. # [20:45] <@eeejay> davidb, looks like it is settled (espeak is out of the question)
  260. # [20:45] <@davidb> ok
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  264. # [21:06] <@firebot> mhoye@mozilla.com requested needinfo from pookveeraya@gmail .com on bug 739179.
  265. # [21:06] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=739179 min, --, ---, pookveeraya, NEW, Provide test for strong table landmark "application" in test_aria_roles.html
  266. # [21:06] <@firebot> mhoye@mozilla.com requested needinfo from pcheng@gmx.com on bug 744144.
  267. # [21:06] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=744144 nor, --, ---, pcheng, NEW, Create / Use a heuristic for @longdesc where no valid URI exists
  268. # [21:08] <@firebot> mhoye@mozilla.com requested needinfo from mailto.rajesh05@g mail.com on bug 782544.
  269. # [21:08] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=782544 nor, --, ---, mailto.rajesh05, NEW, Don't expose position info for table cells
  270. # [21:08] * darkowlzz is now known as darkowlzz|zZzz
  271. # [21:24] <@firebot> mhoye@mozilla.com requested needinfo from nishantg2108@gmai l.com on bug 748639.
  272. # [21:24] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=748639 nor, --, ---, nishantg2108, NEW, add set of internal accessible relation types
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  276. # [21:27] <@firebot> mhoye@mozilla.com requested needinfo from mohangorai@gmail. com on bug 737766.
  277. # [21:27] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=737766 nor, --, ---, mohangorai, NEW, Firefox can't save the homepage.
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  283. # [21:58] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com granted review for attachment 740658 on bug 864646.
  284. # [21:59] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=864646 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, NEW, get rid nsARIAMap struct
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  286. # [22:21] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 865430 filed by eitan@monotonous.org.
  287. # [22:21] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=865430 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Synthesized a11y mouse events are indistinguishable from physical mouse events.
  288. # [22:26] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 741495 on bug 865430.
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  296. # [23:03] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 865447 filed by eitan@monotonous.org.
  297. # [23:03] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=865447 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] Make AccessFu scriptable
  298. # [23:08] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from yura.zenevich@gmail .com for attachment 741510 on bug 865447.
  299. # [23:10] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 865449 filed by eitan@monotonous.org.
  300. # [23:10] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=865449 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] Reintroduce desktop browser support
  301. # [23:11] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from yura.zenevich@gmail .com for attachment 741511 on bug 865449.
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  304. # [23:18] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 865452 filed by eitan@monotonous.org.
  305. # [23:18] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=865452 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] Don't capture scripted mouse events
  306. # [23:23] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from yura.zenevich@gmail .com for attachment 741517 on bug 865452.
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  309. # [23:41] <yzen> hi eeejay, thanks for the r?'s ill give it a try :)
  310. # [23:42] <@eeejay> yzen, aweome! i'm headed out for a while
  311. # [23:42] <yzen> eeejay: ill be looking at it later on tonight too..
  312. # [23:48] * Quits: yzen (Adium@AA2C085E.10C8AEF8.9A8C35B4.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
  313. # Session Close: Thu Apr 25 00:00:00 2013

The end :)