/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2013-05-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat May 04 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  6. # [00:07] <@eeejay> SteveF, i kind of remember a discussion about putting aria in css
  7. # [00:08] <@eeejay> SteveF, do you know if/where that discussion happened?
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  9. # [00:11] <SteveF> eeejay: www-style http://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/search?keywords=aria&hdr-1-name=subject&hdr-1-query=&index-grp=Public_FULL&index-type=t&type-index=www-style
  10. # [00:12] <@eeejay> SteveF, thanks
  11. # [00:12] <SteveF> np
  12. # [00:15] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: you mean so you could associate them with a css class?
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  14. # [00:16] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, ideally. i know that is a controversial issue, to put functionality in a styling doc
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  16. # [00:17] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, but css selectors are so powerful now, and no much behavioral stuff is in css, that having aria states done in js gets nasty fast
  17. # [00:17] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: I don't really care about that but it makes the implementation much harder for little benefit that I can see
  18. # [00:18] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, i am thinking about it because of the gaia system app
  19. # [00:18] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, it has many different types of modal full-screen dialogs
  20. # [00:18] <@tbsaunde> ok?
  21. # [00:19] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, they are slightly translucent - so you can't set the main content to visibility: hidden
  22. # [00:19] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, so for now, i am stuck with aria-hidden for content under the dialog
  23. # [00:20] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, so we need to keep track of the stacking of dialogs, what is on top of which dialog
  24. # [00:20] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, usually it is one dialog and content (ie. the app) below it
  25. # [00:21] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, when a dialog pops up, it adds a class to the root screen element
  26. # [00:21] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, with a simple css selector, you could know if the app is obscured or not
  27. # [00:22] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: so, if we assume that you should be using aria-hidden here I don't see what the big deal is when you aply the css class add aria-hidden two
  28. # [00:23] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, the window management is very complex
  29. # [00:24] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  30. # [00:24] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: still I'd expect it needs to do something to whatever is moving into the forground
  31. # [00:24] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
  32. # [00:25] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, right. so dialog A moves into the forground, and sets the app frame to aria-hidden
  33. # [00:26] <@eeejay> then dialog B comes up, it sets the app frame to dialog hidden as well.
  34. # [00:26] <@eeejay> (and hidden on dialog A, somehow)
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  36. # [00:27] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: go on, sounds fine so far
  37. # [00:27] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, whatever.. my point is that you need to maintain a stack in js
  38. # [00:28] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, which does not exist right now, because everyone is just happy to play with z-order and css
  39. # [00:28] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: I still don't see why, just un aria-hidden whatever is haveing the css class removed or am I missing something?
  40. # [00:28] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, you are missing the magnitude and complexity :)
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  42. # [00:30] <@eeejay> dialog one comes up (set aria hidden), dialog two comes up (set aria hidden), dialog one goes away (uset aria hidden), dialog two goes away (unset aria hidden)
  43. # [00:31] * @eeejay is just rambling
  44. # [00:31] <@eeejay> so you need to maintain a dialog count, like refcounting, to know when to show and hide the app
  45. # [00:32] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: I still don't see the problem, but I'm happy to keep believing web authors should just suck it up if they want to use aria that much
  46. # [00:32] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, what is the alternative?
  47. # [00:33] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: alternative to what?
  48. # [00:33] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, aria
  49. # [00:36] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, https://github.com/mozilla-b2g/gaia/tree/master/apps/system
  50. # [00:36] <@eeejay> if you want to try to make sense of it
  51. # [00:37] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: I'm not saying it isn't needed in some cases
  52. # [00:38] <@firebot> lsblakk@mozilla.com granted approval-mozilla-aurora for attachment 736798 on bug 852955.
  53. # [00:38] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=852955 maj, --, mozilla23, chrislord.net, VERI FIXED, [AccessFu] Trying to activate items at top of pages brings up awesome bar or menu instead
  54. # [00:38] <@firebot> lsblakk@mozilla.com set status-firefox23 to fixed on bug 852955.
  55. # [00:39] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, the fact is, that with css alone you can create an entire windowing system, without one line of js
  56. # [00:40] <@eeejay> but if you want to add aria states of visibility, you need to play catchup with js
  57. # [00:44] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: you don't need js to handle state transitions of what's in the forgrund?
  58. # [00:45] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, no, you could have target selectors
  59. # [00:46] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: no idea what those are, and I'm probably happier that way, but anyway ok
  60. # [00:48] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, if the location has a fragment that points to an element id in the page, you could use the ":target" pseudo class to select it, bring it to the forground, make it pretty, etc.
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  64. # [01:19] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: sure, but if you're deciding to bring something to the forground then you can decide its the thing that shouldn't have aria-hidden too
  65. # [01:20] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, that requires handling events and interrogating the state each time
  66. # [01:21] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, you could do all of the above purely with css selectors
  67. # [01:42] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: you could write a frame work so that you could do it all in json too
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  69. # [01:43] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, i believe you
  70. # [01:43] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, with html/css it could be done very efficiently with much less lines than js
  71. # [01:44] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, are mutation observers slow?
  72. # [01:44] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: the point is aria is far to complicated to implement already, and allowing people to specify it in css would make implementing it at least wice as hard
  73. # [01:45] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: you mean the new dom thing? I think they're pretty fast, but talk to smaug for details
  74. # [01:45] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, so you think web devs shouldn't be given a break if it means harder work for user agents?
  75. # [01:45] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: so I want aria in css to help with $crazy_problem isn't very compeling
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  77. # [01:49] <@tbsaunde> maxli: hey, up to anything this weekend?
  78. # [01:52] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, look at system app in gaia, this isn't theoretical
  79. # [01:52] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  80. # [01:52] <@eeejay> well. kind of. i don't see the will to push any standards through
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  82. # [01:53] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: when did I say it was?
  83. # [01:54] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, $crazy_problems are everywhere
  84. # [01:58] <@tbsaunde> eeejay: sure, doesn't mean that I think making them easier is a good idea
  85. # [01:59] <@eeejay> tbsaunde, i can't argue with that
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  93. # [03:29] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested needinfo from chrislord.net@gma il.com on bug 852955.
  94. # [03:29] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=852955 maj, --, mozilla23, chrislord.net, VERI FIXED, [AccessFu] Trying to activate items at top of pages brings up awesome bar or menu instead
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  97. # [04:39] <@firebot> philringnalda@gmail.com changed the Resolution on bug 868215 from --- to FIXED.
  98. # [04:39] <@firebot> philringnalda@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 868215 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  99. # [04:39] <@firebot> philringnalda@gmail.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 868215 from --- to mozilla23.
  100. # [04:39] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=868215 nor, --, ---, trev.saunders, NEW, add another optgroup / option test
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  114. # [09:40] <@firebot> chrislord.net@gmail.com cancelled needinfo?(chrislord.net@gma il.com) on bug 852955.
  115. # [09:41] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=852955 maj, --, mozilla23, chrislord.net, VERI FIXED, [AccessFu] Trying to activate items at top of pages brings up awesome bar or menu instead
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  118. # [10:09] <fxa90id> :-)
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  149. # [14:40] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 745528 on bug 860013.
  150. # [14:40] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=860013 maj, --, ---, surkov.alexander, NEW, navigation by words broken with orca
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  196. # [23:05] <@firebot> philringnalda@gmail.com changed the Resolution on bug 862863 from --- to FIXED.
  197. # [23:06] <@firebot> philringnalda@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 862863 from ASSIGNED to RESOLVED.
  198. # [23:06] <@firebot> philringnalda@gmail.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 862863 from --- to mozilla23.
  199. # [23:06] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=862863 maj, --, mozilla23, surkov.alexander, RESO FIXED, inactive document accessible might be lost
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  209. # Session Close: Sun May 05 00:00:00 2013

The end :)