/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2013-05-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed May 22 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  34. # [03:46] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com granted review for attachment 752229 on bug 874483.
  35. # [03:46] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=874483 nor, --, ---, trev.saunders, NEW, get rid of some static constructors in accessible/
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  77. # [13:13] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Assignee on bug 873358 from nobody@mozilla.org to surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  78. # [13:13] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 752682 on bug 873358.
  79. # [13:13] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 873358 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
  80. # [13:13] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=873358 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, textarea claims bogus trailing \n (HTML br)
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  84. # [14:17] <@firebot> marco.zehe@googlemail.com cancelled feedback?(marco.zehe@google mail.com) for attachment 752214 on bug 873415.
  85. # [14:17] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=873415 nor, --, ---, maxli, NEW, [AccessFu] Populate adjacent nodes with data
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  89. # [14:19] <@marcoz> Good day all!
  90. # [14:23] * Gijs waves at marcoz
  91. # [14:23] <Gijs> marcoz: how much do you know about the a11y mochitests? :)
  92. # [14:26] <@marcoz> Gijs: Depends a little on the area you're asking about. :)
  93. # [14:26] <Gijs> marcoz: events and focus
  94. # [14:26] <@marcoz> Gijs: No, seriously, what's the question?
  95. # [14:26] <@marcoz> OK.
  96. # [14:27] <@marcoz> So what's the problem?
  97. # [14:27] <Gijs> marcoz: so we have some more failing tests on Windows 7. The test_focus_general.html test times out waiting for the focus event on the toplevel menu.
  98. # [14:27] <Gijs> marcoz: trick is, it only does so if you run all the tests in sequence, not if you run that test individually.
  99. # [14:28] <Gijs> marcoz: I'm bisecting the tests that run before it, and it seems to be caused by one of the docload tests (also in the events directory)
  100. # [14:28] <@marcoz> Gijs: Yeah I know that problem. Probably a previous test didn't close something or something was left hanging about that now interferes with that test.
  101. # [14:28] <Gijs> marcoz: keep in mind that on Windows 7/8, we autohide the menubar - but we do that on current trunk, too.
  102. # [14:28] <@marcoz> Gijs: Were there any failures in the log before the timeout?
  103. # [14:28] <Gijs> marcoz: nope, and that's the funny thing.
  104. # [14:30] <@marcoz> Gijs: Yes we hide the menu bar, but if accessibility is on, it reappears. :) e. g. I'm still using the old-fashioned menu system because for screen reader users, that's far more effective to use than the Firefox button and the layers of sub menu it necessitates.
  105. # [14:30] <Gijs> That's good to know.
  106. # [14:30] <Gijs> marcoz: but these tests, they are (I think) essentially just keyboard navigability tests, checking that you can open the menu using the alt key, even if a11y is off.
  107. # [14:31] <Gijs> marcoz: at least, I guess I'm assuming the tests don't turn on accessibility preferences or anything like that - do they?
  108. # [14:33] <@marcoz> Gijs: The tests in the a11y suite definitely turn accessibility on when the first test is run. It remains on until the bitter end.
  109. # [14:33] <@marcoz> So the reasons for the failures are probably changes in the UI that we key off from and no longer find the hooks for.
  110. # [14:33] <@eeejay> morn morn
  111. # [14:33] <@marcoz> eeejay: Morning!
  112. # [14:34] <@marcoz> eeejay: Good news, EBT started working again with the latest inbound code. So whatever you checked in yesterday fixed things.
  113. # [14:34] <@marcoz> I could try out at least the braille enhancements for bug 873411 and bug 873412.
  114. # [14:34] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=873411 nor, --, ---, maxli, NEW, [AccessFu] Provide extra node information to Brailleback
  115. # [14:34] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=873412 nor, --, ---, maxli, NEW, [AccessFu] Implement performAction for clicking
  116. # [14:35] <Gijs> marcoz: it'd be quite nice if the a11y tests didn't have so many cumulative failures...
  117. # [14:35] <@eeejay> marcoz, great! yeah, those changes were all supposed to go in together, so there was breakage
  118. # [14:38] <SteveF> marcoz: sanity check hope I am not being aggressive in my argument on this bug? https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=670928#c33
  119. # [14:38] <@firebot> Bug 670928 enh, --, ---, eitan, REOP, HTML5 element and WAI-ARIA landmark roles easily navigable in Firefox
  120. # [14:38] <@marcoz> eeejay: Yeah I started suspecting that at some point. :) Great things are back to working order now.
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  122. # [14:39] <@marcoz> Gijs: It would indeed! And we've got pretty good at eliminating random failures, but unfortunately not all of them yet.
  123. # [14:40] <@marcoz> Gijs: One restriction we're facing is the fact that you cannot tear down the screen reader support in a running instance of Firefox once it's been instanciated.
  124. # [14:42] <@marcoz> SteveF: Well, the people benefitting from landmark keyboard support would mostly been users of the keyboard and assistive technologies other than screen readers. Screen reader users will most likely continue to use their screen-reader built-in landmark support, like for NVDA etc.
  125. # [14:42] <@marcoz> So the argument is more one for keyboard-only users or those users who use alternate input devices.
  126. # [14:43] <SteveF> marcoz: correct
  127. # [14:45] <SteveF> marcoz: what i meant is I am comparing reluctance to add UI for keyboard only users (because its a niche user set) with enthusiasm of adding UI for another niche user set (developers)
  128. # [14:46] <SteveF> marcoz: don't want to be inflammatory, but seems like a double standard to me
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  131. # [14:53] <@marcoz> SteveF: Well, I think the web developer community is quite a bit larger than the community of those who need keyboard access to the landmarks. So I can understand the need to add more and more web developer features, since other browsers have them, too.
  132. # [14:54] <@marcoz> Development on the web is becoming more and more important, with Mobile growing steadily.
  133. # [14:55] <SteveF> marcoz: would be interesting to see the numbers,
  134. # [14:55] <@marcoz> Ask the Metrics team. :)
  135. # [14:56] <@marcoz> or davidb if he can find out those numbers for you.
  136. # [15:03] <@marcoz> maxli: Hi! The checked and unchecked states and activating items with the braille routing keys work great, so definite go for bug 873411 and bug 873412 ! :)
  137. # [15:03] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=873411 nor, --, ---, maxli, NEW, [AccessFu] Provide extra node information to Brailleback
  138. # [15:03] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=873412 nor, --, ---, maxli, NEW, [AccessFu] Implement performAction for clicking
  139. # [15:03] <SteveF> marcoz: some stats from http://accessibility.gtri.gatech.edu/assistant/acc_info/factsheet_dexterity_mobility.php - 15.2 Million, limited use of hands
  140. # [15:07] <@marcoz> SteveF: The question is: Do these 15.2 million translate into potential users who would benefit from keyboard support for landmarks?
  141. # [15:09] <SteveF> marcoz: its difficult to know, what metrics are used to decide if something is important enough to add to UI for developers , for example the newly added font inspector?
  142. # [15:09] <@marcoz> Or *how* do these numbers translate….? These are questions the UX team will want answered.
  143. # [15:10] <SteveF> marcoz: note those were numbers for US only
  144. # [15:11] <@marcoz> Developer tools is an own team within the Firefox front-end group, they may operate under slightly different premises than the rest of the team, who are focused on the general user. Gijs may have some insight.
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  146. # [15:13] <SteveF> marcoz: that's fine, but there should not be a higher barrier for adding potential UI functionality improvements for user with disabilities than adding UI for developers me thinks
  147. # [15:14] <SteveF> Gijs: are there any metrics on how developer tools are added and why, how many users there are?
  148. # [15:24] <Gijs> I don't know. :)
  149. # [15:25] * Gijs isn't in the devtools team
  150. # [15:26] <SteveF> gijs:oke doke, have asked UX team on bug
  151. # [15:28] <SteveF> marcoz: is there are front-end team focused on users with disabilities, older users etc?
  152. # [15:35] <@marcoz> SteveF: Not specifically ATM, afaik, but davidb|mobile may know more.
  153. # [15:35] <SteveF> marcoz: thanks will hassle dave
  154. # [15:36] <Gijs> Also, I think part of the devtools reasoning is that we essentially want to encourage "ordinary" users to learn more about the web, just like we do with webmaker products etc.
  155. # [15:36] <Gijs> hence also why these tools are shipped by default.
  156. # [15:37] <@marcoz> Gijs: Makes perfect sense to me! Although on the other hand people like us who work with this stuff every day find that there are just so many things about the web now that it's difficult to get a really good grasp. The web has become way more complex than it was a few years ago.
  157. # [15:38] <SteveF> Gijs: you would think that encouraging users with impairments to use the web would also be a good reason
  158. # [15:38] <Gijs> SteveF: I would agree with you, and I'd like to point out that it wasn't me who didn't agree with you in that bug...
  159. # [15:38] <SteveF> Gijs: thus shipping by default would be good
  160. # [15:39] * @marcoz agrees, too. Just need to play devil
  161. # [15:39] <@marcoz> devil's advocate to see that we have the right arguments in place. :)
  162. # [15:39] <SteveF> Gijs: I am not oicking any fights, just riffing on the topic
  163. # [15:39] <SteveF> picking
  164. # [15:39] <Gijs> SteveF: from reading Boriss' comment, I expect she didn't understand the user impact correctly when initially reading the bug. I think your comments so far will help change that, and we should wait and see what UX comes up with. :-)
  165. # [15:40] <Gijs> I'd be happy to help implement this stuff once/if/when there is some kind of design/agreement how it's supposed to work.
  166. # [15:40] <SteveF> Gij: sure
  167. # [15:41] <Gijs> from reading the comments, it looks like there's considerable disagreement even about how it's supposed to work; in particular, if the elements with landmarks aren't focusable, what is supposed to happen?
  168. # [15:41] <Gijs> just scroll to the right position?
  169. # [15:41] <Gijs> Should we just *make* them focusable?
  170. # [15:41] <Gijs> (what do other browsers do here?)
  171. # [15:42] <SteveF> Gijs: I think P lauke makes the point that they could work like in page links, main point is keyboard focus moves to next link in order in the landmark area
  172. # [15:42] <SteveF> Gijs: suggest trying out the extension thats linked in the bug
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  174. # [15:56] * Gijs curses github's gestures support
  175. # [15:58] <@eeejay> maxli, it is an elusive bug. can't find it :)
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  179. # [16:00] <@marcoz> Hi davidb!
  180. # [16:00] <@davidb> heyo
  181. # [16:05] <Gijs> marcoz: I've narrowed it down to a single test that runs before it and messes up focus, apparently... but I'm not sure where to go from there. :s
  182. # [16:05] <Gijs> marcoz: is there anyone who can help me figure out what's going wrong there?
  183. # [16:06] * Gijs suspects there might be an actual bug in focus handling that's simply become a test problem because of unrelated changes in Australis.
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  185. # [16:10] <@marcoz> Gijs: Which file is it exactly?
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  187. # [16:11] <Gijs> marcoz: so the test that fails is test_focus_general.html, but there are several other focus tests after it that don't fare too well, either. The test that seems to "cause" the problem is test_docload.html .
  188. # [16:11] <Gijs> (which opens and closes several new windows)
  189. # [16:11] <@marcoz> Gijs: I'd file a new bug and CC surkov, me, and probably Neil Deakin, our master of focus manager.
  190. # [16:11] <Gijs> marcoz: I already have a bug on file for this test failure as it affects us on the UX branch... :)
  191. # [16:11] * Gijs can CC all of you. :)
  192. # [16:12] <fxa90id> :)
  193. # [16:12] <Gijs> Unfortunately Neil is on leave.
  194. # [16:12] <Gijs> marcoz: is there anyone besides Neil who might know?
  195. # [16:12] <@marcoz> Gijs: Go right ahead. This area has proven fragile in the past, so if this gives us a chance to nail down what's wrong, we should seize it.
  196. # [16:13] <@marcoz> Gijs: Hm, bz *might* know, but I'm not sure of that.
  197. # [16:13] <@marcoz> Gijs: Bug 178324 introduced that focus manager mechanism, perhaps one of the review peers.
  198. # [16:13] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178324 nor, --, mozilla1.9.2, enndeakin, RESO FIXED, refactor focus handling
  199. # [16:24] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@moz-4595FE6F.creuna.se) (Quit: Leaving.)
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  203. # [16:35] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo davidb davidb
  204. # [16:36] <@firebot> sjwright@gmail.com changed the Resolution on bug 873045 from DUPLICATE to ---.
  205. # [16:36] <@firebot> sjwright@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 873045 from RESOLVED to UNCONFIRMED.
  206. # [16:36] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=873045 nor, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, Holding down F5 shouldn't flood the web server
  207. # [16:41] * Gijs sighs.
  208. # [16:41] <Gijs> Maybe we should rename the "DUPLICATE" resolution to "YOU_ARE_NOT_ALONE".
  209. # [16:42] <Gijs> people might be happier with it that way.
  210. # [16:44] <@firebot> maxli@maxli.ca requested feedback from marco.zehe@google mail.com for attachment 752751 on bug 873415.
  211. # [16:44] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=873415 nor, --, ---, maxli, NEW, [AccessFu] Populate adjacent nodes with data
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  215. # [17:20] <@firebot> marco.zehe@googlemail.com granted feedback for attachment 752751 on bug 873415.
  216. # [17:20] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=873415 nor, --, ---, maxli, NEW, [AccessFu] Populate adjacent nodes with data
  217. # [17:48] <@davidb> Gijs: i like it
  218. # [17:50] <tbsaunde> davidb: any more ideas about that test?
  219. # [17:50] <@davidb> tbsaunde: totally forgot about it
  220. # [17:58] <SteveF> davidb: d bolder scrollback http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/accessibility/20130522#l-118 when you have awoken sufficently
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  224. # [18:08] * eeejay sets mode: +o tbsaunde
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  234. # [18:45] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Resolution on bug 872355 from --- to FIXED.
  235. # [18:45] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 872355 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  236. # [18:46] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 872355 from --- to mozilla24.
  237. # [18:46] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=872355 nor, --, mozilla24, eitan, RESO FIXED, [AccessFu] Always use vc of nested iframes
  238. # [18:46] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com granted in-testsuite on bug 857946.
  239. # [18:46] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Resolution on bug 857946 from --- to FIXED.
  240. # [18:46] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 857946 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  241. # [18:46] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 857946 from --- to mozilla24.
  242. # [18:46] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=857946 maj, --, mozilla24, yura.zenevich, RESO FIXED, [AccessFu] After closing all tabs, newly loaded pages are no longer accessible
  243. # [19:00] <@tbsaunde> davidb: maxli eeejay any of you around and want food?
  244. # [19:09] * Quits: lizzard (ehenry@49FA73F1.889FDC10.4EA770CF.IP) (Quit: lizzard)
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  246. # [19:39] <@davidb> tbsaunde: sorry i PMed you earlier. we had an intern-mentors lunch. let's join up tomorrow?
  247. # [19:39] * Quits: Gijs (gijs@moz-C11B0461.dsl.alice.nl) (Quit: poof)
  248. # [19:44] <@tbsaunde> davidb: and I got free left overs :)
  249. # [19:45] <@davidb> win!
  250. # [19:46] <@tbsaunde> that's what I figure
  251. # [19:47] <@hub> eeejay is in Toronto?
  252. # [19:52] <@davidb> yeah
  253. # [19:52] <@davidb> he is tech mentor for maxli
  254. # [19:52] <@davidb> who is interning until end of Aug
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  260. # [21:11] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from yura.zenevich@gmail .com for attachment 752878 on bug 865023.
  261. # [21:11] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=865023 nor, --, ---, eitan, NEW, [AccessFu] Streamline preference getting and observing
  262. # [21:27] <@eeejay> maxli, https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/screen-reader-simulator/
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  276. # [23:02] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org cancelled review?(yura.zenevich@gmail .com) for attachment 752878 on bug 865023.
  277. # [23:02] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=865023 nor, --, ---, eitan, NEW, [AccessFu] Streamline preference getting and observing
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  280. # [23:45] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from yura.zenevich@gmail .com for attachment 752976 on bug 865023.
  281. # [23:45] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=865023 nor, --, ---, eitan, NEW, [AccessFu] Streamline preference getting and observing
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  283. # Session Close: Thu May 23 00:00:00 2013

The end :)