/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2013-05-31 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Fri May 31 00:00:01 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
  3. # [00:06] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@moz-C35543CE.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: Leaving.)
  4. # [00:31] * Joins: lizzard (ehenry@moz-5A4BE8E8.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  5. # [00:31] * Quits: habber (habber@moz-8654C0B7.nyc.res.rr.com) (Quit: habber)
  6. # [00:32] * Quits: rednaks__ (rednaks@980B88E.D534AF5C.55FFA9B4.IP) (Quit: Téléportation !)
  7. # [00:41] * Quits: Gijs (gijs@moz-C11B0461.dsl.alice.nl) (Quit: poof)
  8. # [00:45] * Joins: habber (habber@moz-8654C0B7.nyc.res.rr.com)
  9. # [00:48] * khuey|away is now known as khuey|tw
  10. # [00:54] * Joins: davidb (davidb@moz-C56D5C4E.dsl.bell.ca)
  11. # [00:54] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo davidb davidb
  12. # [00:56] * Quits: habber (habber@moz-8654C0B7.nyc.res.rr.com) (Quit: habber)
  13. # [01:20] * Quits: @davidb (davidb@moz-C56D5C4E.dsl.bell.ca) (Quit: davidb)
  14. # [01:27] * Joins: maxli (maxli@C03F2759.C70D537E.2FA4EA88.IP)
  15. # [01:28] * Quits: brambles (xymox@moz-969AAE9B.barwen.ch) (Ping timeout)
  16. # [01:28] * Joins: brambles (xymox@moz-969AAE9B.barwen.ch)
  17. # [01:40] <maxli> eeejay, ping
  18. # [01:40] <@eeejay> maxli, yo
  19. # [01:43] <maxli> eeejay, so I'm kind of stuck on finding a good way to shorten role names and such; since right now I'm basically just using the UtteranceGenerator, but with that added I can't just directly call those functions
  20. # [01:43] * Quits: lizzard (ehenry@moz-5A4BE8E8.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Quit: lizzard)
  21. # [01:44] <@eeejay> maxli, the utterance generator should probably left to speech. you will need to have other strings that are used for braille
  22. # [01:44] <@eeejay> maxli, so you would need have localizable strings for each role
  23. # [01:45] <maxli> eeejay, right, so should I create a braille generator similar to the utterance one?
  24. # [01:46] <@eeejay> maxli, depends how involved the process is. creating utterances have different considerations than braille. i would start in the braille presenter, and if it gets out of hand, spin it off to its own module
  25. # [01:56] * Joins: surkov (surkov@4F778CCB.95871A73.E17943EE.IP)
  26. # [01:56] * ChanServ sets mode: +o surkov
  27. # [01:59] * Joins: Jamie (Instantbir@moz-CA26021.jantrid.net)
  28. # [01:59] * Joins: lizzard (ehenry@moz-5A4BE8E8.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  29. # [02:22] * Quits: maxli (maxli@C03F2759.C70D537E.2FA4EA88.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
  30. # [02:23] * Quits: brambles (xymox@moz-969AAE9B.barwen.ch) (Ping timeout)
  31. # [02:23] * Joins: brambles (xymox@moz-969AAE9B.barwen.ch)
  32. # [02:26] * Quits: fxa90id (fxa90id@moz-8386A18E.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl) (Ping timeout)
  33. # [02:27] * Joins: fxa90id (fxa90id@moz-8386A18E.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl)
  34. # [02:49] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com granted review for attachment 756030 on bug 875665.
  35. # [02:49] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=875665 nor, --, ---, eitan, NEW, doAction(0) in <textarea/> accessible raises error
  36. # [03:10] * Quits: scott_gonzalez (scott_gonz@moz-91C81A39.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net) (Quit: scott_gonzalez)
  37. # [03:11] * Joins: maxli (maxli@C03F2759.C70D537E.2FA4EA88.IP)
  38. # [03:13] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Resolution on bug 877640 from --- to FIXED.
  39. # [03:13] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 877640 from ASSIGNED to RESOLVED.
  40. # [03:13] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 877640 from --- to mozilla24.
  41. # [03:13] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=877640 nor, --, mozilla24, marco.zehe, RESO FIXED, [AccessFu] Expose the STATE_HASPOPUP info
  42. # [03:14] * Quits: maxli (maxli@C03F2759.C70D537E.2FA4EA88.IP) (Ping timeout)
  43. # [03:17] <@tbsaunde> surkov: plans to review bug 852150?
  44. # [03:17] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=852150 maj, --, ---, trev.saunders, NEW, "ASSERTION: No accessible parent?!" with table
  45. # [03:18] <@surkov> tbsaunde: oh, I thought I commented into it but apparently not
  46. # [03:27] * khuey|tw is now known as khuey|away
  47. # [03:37] * Joins: scott_gonzalez (scott_gonz@moz-91C81A39.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net)
  48. # [03:52] * khuey|away is now known as khuey|tw
  49. # [03:53] * Quits: scott_gonzalez (scott_gonz@moz-91C81A39.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net) (Quit: scott_gonzalez)
  50. # [05:08] * Joins: yzen (Adium@AA2C085E.10C8AEF8.9A8C35B4.IP)
  51. # [05:17] * Quits: Jesse (jruderman@2557E599.66715431.D25A875A.IP) (Quit: Jesse)
  52. # [05:42] * Quits: lizzard (ehenry@moz-5A4BE8E8.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Quit: lizzard)
  53. # [05:52] * Joins: Jesse (jruderman@moz-537BCF9.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  54. # [06:07] * Joins: lizzard (ehenry@moz-5A4BE8E8.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  55. # [06:11] * Quits: lizzard (ehenry@moz-5A4BE8E8.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Quit: lizzard)
  56. # [06:27] * Quits: peteb-away (ptbrunet@moz-B51E1692.austin.res.rr.com) (Input/output error)
  57. # [07:00] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@DE2B5DEF.67CDC207.79933D60.IP)
  58. # [07:28] * Quits: yzen (Adium@AA2C085E.10C8AEF8.9A8C35B4.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
  59. # [07:42] * Joins: SteveF (chatzilla@moz-3F778890.cable.virginmedia.com)
  60. # [08:22] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 877974 filed by surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  61. # [08:22] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=877974 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, NEW, getTextAtOffset for line boundary
  62. # [08:23] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 756395 on bug 877974.
  63. # [08:24] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@DE2B5DEF.67CDC207.79933D60.IP) (Quit: victorporof)
  64. # [08:26] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 877976 filed by surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  65. # [08:26] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=877976 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, NEW, getTextAtOffset line boundary fails on last line in document
  66. # [08:28] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Assignee on bug 875794 from nobody@mozilla.org to surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  67. # [08:28] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 756398 on bug 875794.
  68. # [08:28] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 875794 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
  69. # [08:28] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=875794 maj, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, get text at offset for line_start boundary fails on last empty line
  70. # [08:30] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 877977 filed by surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  71. # [08:30] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=877977 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, getTextAtOffset line end boundary returns wrong end offset
  72. # [08:49] * Quits: Jamie (Instantbir@moz-CA26021.jantrid.net) (Quit: Instantbird 1.4a1pre -- http://www.instantbird.com)
  73. # [08:51] * Quits: @surkov (surkov@4F778CCB.95871A73.E17943EE.IP) (Quit: surkov)
  74. # [08:52] <fxa90id> :D
  75. # [08:56] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@moz-C35543CE.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  76. # [09:08] * khuey|tw is now known as khuey|away
  77. # [09:11] * khuey|away is now known as khuey|tw
  78. # [09:24] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@A2ABEB67.124F9E.4A6B528C.IP)
  79. # [09:25] * Joins: surkov (surkov@4F778CCB.95871A73.E17943EE.IP)
  80. # [09:25] * ChanServ sets mode: +o surkov
  81. # [09:30] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Assignee on bug 877532 from nobody@mozilla.org to surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  82. # [09:30] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 756425 on bug 877532.
  83. # [09:31] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=877532 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, NEW, IAccessible::accNavigate with NAVRELATION_* fails
  84. # [09:32] * Joins: marcoz (marco.zehe@moz-F3C5E0FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  85. # [09:33] * ChanServ sets mode: +o marcoz
  86. # [09:33] <@marcoz> Good morning all!
  87. # [09:35] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 877982 filed by surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  88. # [09:35] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=877982 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, JAWS misses textarea in Firefox 23
  89. # [09:36] <@surkov> hi, marcoz
  90. # [09:40] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Assignee on bug 877982 from nobody@mozilla.org to surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  91. # [09:40] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 756427 on bug 877982.
  92. # [09:43] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 877985 filed by surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  93. # [09:43] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=877985 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, expose node_parent_of relation via accNavigate
  94. # [10:00] * Quits: @surkov (surkov@4F778CCB.95871A73.E17943EE.IP) (Quit: surkov)
  95. # [10:05] * Joins: Gijs (gijs@moz-C11B0461.dsl.alice.nl)
  96. # [10:14] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@A2ABEB67.124F9E.4A6B528C.IP) (Client exited)
  97. # [10:15] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@A2ABEB67.124F9E.4A6B528C.IP)
  98. # [10:16] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@A2ABEB67.124F9E.4A6B528C.IP) (Ping timeout)
  99. # [10:23] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@A2ABEB67.124F9E.4A6B528C.IP)
  100. # [10:28] * Joins: surkov (surkov@4F778CCB.95871A73.E17943EE.IP)
  101. # [10:28] * ChanServ sets mode: +o surkov
  102. # [10:31] <@marcoz> surkov: Thanks for taking care of the JAWS textarea bug in this way! I think it's the right choice to provide a Firefox 23 specific solution. :)
  103. # [10:31] <@surkov> yw
  104. # [10:39] * Quits: @surkov (surkov@4F778CCB.95871A73.E17943EE.IP) (Quit: surkov)
  105. # [11:12] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@A2ABEB67.124F9E.4A6B528C.IP) (Quit: victorporof)
  106. # [11:23] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@A2ABEB67.124F9E.4A6B528C.IP)
  107. # [11:39] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@moz-C35543CE.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: Leaving.)
  108. # [11:54] * khuey|tw is now known as khuey|away
  109. # [11:55] * khuey|away is now known as khuey|tw
  110. # [12:02] * Joins: surkov (surkov@4F778CCB.95871A73.E17943EE.IP)
  111. # [12:02] * ChanServ sets mode: +o surkov
  112. # [12:03] <SteveF> surkov: thanks for email on subline, its still a very early sketch of an idea and is changing rapidly, will ping you again when it settles down
  113. # [12:04] <@surkov> SteveF: ok, cool
  114. # [12:31] * khuey|tw is now known as khuey|away
  115. # [13:06] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@A2ABEB67.124F9E.4A6B528C.IP) (Quit: victorporof)
  116. # [13:07] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@A2ABEB67.124F9E.4A6B528C.IP)
  117. # [13:14] * Quits: @marcoz (marco.zehe@moz-F3C5E0FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Leaving.)
  118. # [13:39] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@moz-C35543CE.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  119. # [13:46] * Joins: scott_gonzalez (scott_gonz@moz-91C81A39.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net)
  120. # [13:53] * Joins: marcoz (marco.zehe@moz-F3C5E0FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  121. # [14:08] * ChanServ sets mode: +o marcoz
  122. # [14:33] * Quits: fxa90id (fxa90id@moz-8386A18E.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl) (Ping timeout)
  123. # [14:43] * Joins: peteb-away (ptbrunet@moz-B51E1692.austin.res.rr.com)
  124. # [15:08] * Joins: davidb (davidb@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
  125. # [15:08] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo davidb davidb
  126. # [15:09] <@davidb> heyo!
  127. # [15:20] <@marcoz> Heyo davidb!
  128. # [15:20] <@davidb> hi
  129. # [15:20] <@marcoz> davidb: Have you seen this? This scares the shit out of me: http://accessibility.oit.ncsu.edu/blog/2013/05/31/screen-readers-at-a-crossroads/
  130. # [15:22] * Joins: maxli (maxli@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
  131. # [15:22] <@davidb> i haven't read it
  132. # [15:22] * @davidb adds it to list
  133. # [15:22] * Joins: maxli1 (maxli@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
  134. # [15:22] * Quits: maxli (maxli@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Connection reset by peer)
  135. # [15:35] <Gijs> marcoz: why does it scare you?
  136. # [15:36] * Joins: habber (habber@moz-861E573F.nyc.biz.rr.com)
  137. # [15:37] <@marcoz> Gijs: Many many web authors don't even get basic accessibility right. I am scared of what they could do with this ChromeVox API.
  138. # [15:37] <@marcoz> Gijs: And also, I feel like this adds a level of potential fragmentation and weakening of HTML accessibility standardization. Can't solve something? Dump it into the ChromeVox API and don't think about the rest.
  139. # [15:38] <Gijs> marcoz: I hear you on the second concern, not sure if the first will really be an issue.
  140. # [15:38] <Gijs> marcoz: if developers don't get basic accessibility right, why would they use the ChromeVox API?
  141. # [15:39] <Gijs> marcoz: I think the API is targeted toward people who do know what they're doing (well, sort of)
  142. # [15:39] <@marcoz> Gijs: It may very well become one, if CEOs or other managers start saying "use the ChromeVox API to dump info into the screen reader, and don't bother any more with proper markup".
  143. # [15:39] <Gijs> marcoz: right, but that's the second concern, right? :)
  144. # [15:40] <@marcoz> Gijs: And too many web developers *think* they know what they're doing, but don't actually. The many cases of wrong use of role="application" plainly shows that.
  145. # [15:41] <@marcoz> Gijs: So, instead of adding to the standards specs, Google are trying to instigate a island solution that works with Chrome and ChromeVox, and doesn't give a shit about the other browsers and screen readers.
  146. # [15:42] <Gijs> marcoz: this is a fair point, but the 'idiot developer' problem is not unique to ChromeVox, I guess.
  147. # [15:42] <Gijs> marcoz: anyway, isn't this all... what's his name's... work?
  148. # [15:42] <Gijs> Charles Chen?
  149. # [15:42] <@marcoz> Take the quoted Google Docs accessibility problems. Instead of taking the problems they're facing to the ARIA and HTML standards bodies, and lobby for a browser-independent solution, they start doing their own thing and simply dump info into the speech synthesizer they cannot, or do not want to, get right in their markup.
  150. # [15:43] <@marcoz> Gijs: Yes, Charles Chen and TV Raman.
  151. # [15:43] <Gijs> marcoz: can we talk to them about this?
  152. # [15:44] <Gijs> marcoz: they've seemed reasonable folks to me in the past, and these are valid concerns...
  153. # [15:48] <@marcoz> Gijs: Well, I think davidb in the standards groups, and the community at large, have tried to lobby for this kind of participation in the past already. :(
  154. # [15:48] <@davidb> holy scroll back batmat
  155. # [15:48] <@davidb> batman :)
  156. # [15:49] <@tbsaunde> win 20
  157. # [15:49] <Gijs> davidb: TL;DR wrt the article, ChromeVox lets page authors control the output of the screenreader to an extent that isn't possible with any 'normal' screenreader, and we're afraid of monoculture and dumb authors.
  158. # [15:49] <@marcoz> Sigh, what's the current syntax to run the a11y test suite again? I keep forgetting this new thing.
  159. # [15:50] <Gijs> (marcoz: correct me if I haven't represented you fairly!)
  160. # [15:50] <Gijs> marcoz: ./mach mochitest-a11y
  161. # [15:50] <@davidb> ok this is a high altitude conversation about how to solve web a11y :)
  162. # [15:50] <Gijs> head in the clouds, definitely.
  163. # [15:50] * Parts: maxli1 (maxli@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
  164. # [15:50] <@davidb> it is important. i do think about this a lot but can't ...
  165. # [15:50] <Gijs> davidb: PS, I will be in toronto for a work week at the end of June. See you there?
  166. # [15:50] * Joins: maxli (maxli@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
  167. # [15:50] <@davidb> yes!
  168. # [15:51] <Gijs> Excellent.
  169. # [15:51] <@davidb> oh crap
  170. # [15:51] <@davidb> what dates?
  171. # [15:51] <Gijs> Not excellent?
  172. # [15:51] <Gijs> Last week.
  173. # [15:51] <Gijs> 22-29
  174. # [15:51] <@davidb> i think i'm away 30th to aug2
  175. # [15:51] <Gijs> Ah, that should work then.
  176. # [15:51] <Gijs> All of July off!
  177. # [15:51] <@davidb> ok
  178. # [15:51] <Gijs> nice. :)
  179. # [15:51] <@davidb> oops i
  180. # [15:51] <@davidb> lol
  181. # [15:51] * khuey|away is now known as khuey|tw
  182. # [15:52] <@davidb> i meant july 30th… which is of course fine :)
  183. # [15:52] <Gijs> davidb: you awake yet? :P
  184. # [15:52] <@davidb> i am gulping my neglected coffee
  185. # [15:59] <Gijs> wfm :)
  186. # [16:02] <@davidb> marcoz: just read about josh singing his talk
  187. # [16:03] * Joins: fxa90id (fxa90id@moz-42E1950E.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl)
  188. # [16:06] <@marcoz> davidb: Yes it was incredibly awesome!
  189. # [16:30] <SteveF> question: disabled tab button include in keyboard tab order or not?
  190. # [16:34] <@marcoz> SteveF: Nope.
  191. # [16:34] <@davidb> SteveF: i'd say depends on what you can do to it
  192. # [16:35] <SteveF> davidb: well its disabled so you can't use it to display the associated tab
  193. # [16:35] <SteveF> panel
  194. # [16:36] <@davidb> i figured. in general i agree with marcoz
  195. # [16:37] <SteveF> davidb: marcoz: couldn't find example of disabled tab button, but know that buttons are not icluded in tab order, but disabled menu items are so was unsure
  196. # [16:38] <@marcoz> SteveF: Yes, disabled menu items have always been included in the menu system, both Windows and Mac, and I also think Gnome. Other controls such as buttons, and anything else that's tabable, not. Also on all desktop platforms I know.
  197. # [16:39] <@marcoz> SteveF: And even in the browser, if you have a <button with a disabled state, it won't allow to be tabbed to.
  198. # [16:40] <@davidb> the abstract principle is if it isn't interactable then skip it, but the idea comes up once and a while.
  199. # [16:41] <@davidb> i'm sure we all know this :)
  200. # [16:46] <SteveF> Marcoz: cool thanks i thought the same, but client question arose and couldn't find an example to check against
  201. # [16:50] <SteveF> marcoz: and others Screen Readers at a Crossroads http://accessibility.oit.ncsu.edu/blog/2013/05/31/screen-readers-at-a-crossroads/
  202. # [16:51] <SteveF> interesting read
  203. # [16:54] <@marcoz> SteveF: As I was saying to gijs an hour ago: Scares me quite a bit.
  204. # [16:55] * khuey|tw is now known as khuey
  205. # [16:55] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  206. # [16:55] <SteveF> marcoz: yeah essentially menas if you use chromevox a page author can control your screen reader output and behaviour
  207. # [16:55] <SteveF> sorry 'means'
  208. # [16:57] <@marcoz> Yes, and some CEOs or managers could use that as an excuse to not need to provide correct mark-up in the future. Just let ChromeVox talk this thing, and we don't care about other browsers and screen readers.
  209. # [17:00] <SteveF> marcoz: also seems to allow Google code HTML as they please then say they are supporting accessibility because it works on chromevox
  210. # [17:01] <@davidb> i haven't chatted with dominic in ages
  211. # [17:01] <@davidb> i wonder what the story with blink is
  212. # [17:01] <@davidb> the blink team is all about standards….
  213. # [17:02] <@firebot> marco.zehe@googlemail.com requested review from yura.zenevich@gmail .com for attachment 756575 on bug 877655.
  214. # [17:02] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=877655 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Add tests for state utterance presence
  215. # [17:04] <@tbsaunde> marcoz: I don't think that's a good API, but really what google's doing isn't that different from what we're doing with a bunch of b2g stuff and other things
  216. # [17:04] <@firebot> marco.zehe@googlemail.com changed the Assignee on bug 877655 from nobody@mozilla.org to marco.zehe@googlemail.com.
  217. # [17:05] <@firebot> marco.zehe@googlemail.com changed the Status on bug 877655 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
  218. # [17:06] <@marcoz> tbsaunde: I disagree. We may make up the strings to speak for the Android stuff, but that's just because Google doesn't provide the Android API yet for us to make them speak the roles and states instead.
  219. # [17:07] <@marcoz> tbsaunde: As for B2G, we do use standard HTML, and only use the Speech API to communicate with the speech synthesizer, because in some part of the operating system, we need to do that. :)
  220. # [17:07] <@tbsaunde> marcoz: no I mean other DOM API's like BateryManager MozPower contacts...
  221. # [17:08] <@marcoz> tbsaunde: Yes, but we propose those new APIs to the W3C as standards.
  222. # [17:16] <@tbsaunde> marcoz: do you have evidence google isn't writing a spec?
  223. # [17:16] <SteveF> tbsaunde: also appears to be a difference between browser supplying role/state/name etc strings and author being able to change any page
  224. # [17:17] <@tbsaunde> SteveF: huh?
  225. # [17:18] <fxa90id> ha it worked :D
  226. # [17:18] <SteveF> tbsaunde: the custom changes to chromevox behaviour are due to a script in the head of the web page
  227. # [17:19] <SteveF> tbsaunde: in that example cited in the article i pointed to earlier
  228. # [17:19] <@tbsaunde> SteveF: goolge's added API's to controll one bit of a platform (what a screen reader does) and Mozilla has added API's for doing stuff with all of contacts batteries and power use
  229. # [17:19] <SteveF> tbsaunde: point being?
  230. # [17:20] <@tbsaunde> SteveF: just that while this isn't a good APi google isn't being evil here
  231. # [17:21] <SteveF> tbsaunde: I didn't say they were being evil, but think it is a powerful API that will prone to much abuse
  232. # [17:22] <@tbsaunde> SteveF: I thought marcoz was, but maybe not
  233. # [17:23] <SteveF> tbsaunde: and I do expect them to use it to say 'hey this is accessible' it works with chromevox
  234. # [17:23] <@tbsaunde> SteveF: I'm certainly not convinced its a good API
  235. # [17:23] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@A2ABEB67.124F9E.4A6B528C.IP) (Quit: victorporof)
  236. # [17:23] <SteveF> tbsaunde: which is what companies like to do
  237. # [17:26] <@tbsaunde> SteveF: arguably other browsers could implement that API two if they choose to
  238. # [17:27] <SteveF> tbsaunde: would other AT also need to implement it?
  239. # [17:27] <SteveF> but yes so another project for davidb:
  240. # [17:28] <@davidb> i'm not here
  241. # [17:28] <@tbsaunde> SteveF: perhaps would depend how people choose to implement it I suppose
  242. # [17:29] <@tbsaunde> yeah, I'm about to go way too
  243. # [17:37] <@davidb> yeah the pragmatics of the google approach can be problematic
  244. # [17:38] <@davidb> WRT webapi i think as long as we remove prefixes when exposing to content we are ok-ish - i'm not sure we've always been able to follow this rule
  245. # [17:38] <@davidb> in general, outsourcing a11y to things like axsjax etc hasn't had a great history
  246. # [17:39] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@moz-C35543CE.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: Leaving.)
  247. # [17:39] <fxa90id> davidb, :D
  248. # [17:39] <@davidb> the dream of universal design hasn't solidified
  249. # [17:39] <fxa90id> anyway you seem to be busy :(
  250. # [17:39] <@davidb> in web space
  251. # [17:39] <@davidb> fxa90id: ohai - visibility bug?
  252. # [17:39] <fxa90id> yes
  253. # [17:40] <@davidb> ok i need to read it again, and get in the headspace
  254. # [17:40] <@davidb> fxa90id: bug #?
  255. # [17:40] <fxa90id> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=722417
  256. # [17:40] <@firebot> Bug 722417 nor, --, ---, michaljev, ASSI, Expose intended visibility.
  257. # [17:40] <@davidb> fxa90id: my recollection is that for visibility we should expose author intended visibility, and not worry about occlusion by other window or tab etc
  258. # [17:40] <@davidb> we took a very visual approach before but it bit us
  259. # [17:41] <fxa90id> hmm
  260. # [17:41] <fxa90id> I made something like
  261. # [17:41] <fxa90id> return states:FOCUSABLE | VisibilityState();
  262. # [17:41] <fxa90id> in NativeState() in DocAccessible ;<
  263. # [17:41] <fxa90id> it compiles and works :D
  264. # [17:41] <@davidb> interesting
  265. # [17:41] <fxa90id> but Im not sure you wanted to do this
  266. # [17:41] <@davidb> it seems a lie potentially
  267. # [17:42] <fxa90id> ?
  268. # [17:42] <@davidb> let me look at the code
  269. # [17:42] <fxa90id> I will put patch
  270. # [17:43] <@davidb> oh i see
  271. # [17:44] <@davidb> fxa90id: did you remove the stale and busy checks? (why?)
  272. # [17:44] <@davidb> or did you change NativeInteractiveState
  273. # [17:44] <fxa90id> no
  274. # [17:44] <fxa90id> I didnt
  275. # [17:44] <@davidb> ok
  276. # [17:45] <fxa90id> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=756585&action=diff
  277. # [17:45] <fxa90id> :D
  278. # [17:45] <@davidb> you removed too much no?
  279. # [17:45] <fxa90id> I dont know
  280. # [17:45] <fxa90id> it works :(
  281. # [17:45] <fxa90id> how can I test it ?
  282. # [17:45] <fxa90id> I opened few websites and was ok :(
  283. # [17:46] <@davidb> fxa90id: well, why did you remove the busy and stale state blocks?
  284. # [17:46] <fxa90id> I dont know :d
  285. # [17:46] <@davidb> heh
  286. # [17:46] <@davidb> well make this bug only about visibility
  287. # [17:46] <@davidb> and leave everything else
  288. # [17:46] <fxa90id> it seems DocAccessible::NativeState() should call VisibilityState()
  289. # [17:47] <@davidb> yes
  290. # [17:47] <fxa90id> so if it calls this I shouldnt remove what it contained ?
  291. # [17:47] <@davidb> so only remove the part that sets invisible and offscreen states
  292. # [17:47] <@davidb> and use what VisibilityState gives you
  293. # [17:47] <fxa90id> oh
  294. # [17:47] <fxa90id> ok :)
  295. # [17:48] <@davidb> writing a failing test first is probably best
  296. # [17:48] <@davidb> as surkov suggests in comment 13
  297. # [17:48] <@davidb> it will save you time in the end
  298. # [17:48] <fxa90id> great
  299. # [17:48] <fxa90id> how can I write test ?
  300. # [17:48] <fxa90id> just in js ?
  301. # [17:48] <@davidb> there are many examples
  302. # [17:48] * @davidb looks
  303. # [17:49] <@davidb> first i guess learn how to run a test
  304. # [17:49] <fxa90id> mochitests ?
  305. # [17:49] * Gijs is now known as Gijs_away
  306. # [17:49] <@davidb> ./mach mochitest-a11y accessible/tests/mochitest/states
  307. # [17:50] <@davidb> that will run the states tests
  308. # [17:50] <@davidb> yeah
  309. # [17:50] <@davidb> mochitest
  310. # [17:50] <@davidb> fxa90id: surkov mentions a test to work from in comment 13
  311. # [17:50] <@davidb> this is step 1 :)
  312. # [17:50] <fxa90id> :D
  313. # [17:50] <fxa90id> yes sir
  314. # [17:50] <@davidb> good luck!
  315. # [17:50] <fxa90id> I see there are no chances :D
  316. # [17:50] <fxa90id> form my intern next year :d
  317. # [17:50] <fxa90id> for*
  318. # [17:51] <@davidb> heh
  319. # [17:51] <@davidb> i'm not interviewing so i dunno
  320. # [17:51] <fxa90id> :D
  321. # [17:51] <fxa90id> I see now :D
  322. # [17:51] <fxa90id> my skill is ------------------
  323. # [17:51] <fxa90id> me = (davidb >> 100)
  324. # [17:51] <fxa90id> :D
  325. # [17:52] <@davidb> naw
  326. # [17:52] <@davidb> confidence is everything
  327. # [17:52] <@davidb> make yourself pause to understand what you are doing
  328. # [17:52] <@davidb> be one with the code
  329. # [17:52] <@davidb> :)
  330. # [17:53] <fxa90id> you're my master :D
  331. # [17:53] * @davidb bows
  332. # [17:53] <fxa90id> you should be called
  333. # [17:53] <fxa90id> davidb the Yoda
  334. # [17:53] <@davidb> silly you are
  335. # [17:53] <@davidb> firebot: yoda?
  336. # [17:53] <@firebot> davidb: Sorry, I've no idea what 'yoda' might be.
  337. # [17:53] <@firebot> davidb: word knew: yoda is David's server where all the bots run
  338. # [17:54] <fxa90id> ;>
  339. # [17:54] <@davidb> firebot: no, yoda is silly question you ask
  340. # [17:54] <@firebot> davidb: ok
  341. # [17:54] <@davidb> firebot: yoda?
  342. # [17:54] <@firebot> davidb: hmm... I think yoda is silly question you ask
  343. # [17:54] <@davidb> bah good enough
  344. # [17:54] <fxa90id> firebot, no, yoda jedi master is davidb
  345. # [17:54] <@firebot> fxa90id: ok
  346. # [17:54] <fxa90id> firebot, yoda?
  347. # [17:54] <@firebot> fxa90id: Was it not... er, someone, who said: yoda is silly question you ask
  348. # [17:54] <fxa90id> :D
  349. # [17:54] <@davidb> lol
  350. # [17:54] * @davidb pats firebot
  351. # [17:54] <@firebot> :)
  352. # [17:55] * @davidb goes back to email
  353. # [17:55] <@hub> as long as by email you don't equate it to "gmail"
  354. # [17:55] * fxa90id unites with code
  355. # [17:55] <@davidb> hub: i do not
  356. # [18:16] * Joins: lizzard (ehenry@moz-5A4BE8E8.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  357. # [18:17] * Quits: fxa90id (fxa90id@moz-42E1950E.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl) (Quit: Leaving)
  358. # [18:19] * Quits: @marcoz (marco.zehe@moz-F3C5E0FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Leaving.)
  359. # [18:38] * Joins: rednaks (rednaks@6249B2B2.98FD7301.55FFA9B4.IP)
  360. # [18:40] * Quits: scott_gonzalez (scott_gonz@moz-91C81A39.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net) (Quit: scott_gonzalez)
  361. # [18:44] * habber is now known as habber-lunch
  362. # [18:45] * Quits: lizzard (ehenry@moz-5A4BE8E8.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Quit: lizzard)
  363. # [18:47] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@moz-C35543CE.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  364. # [18:51] <@davidb> maxli: did you eat?
  365. # [18:52] <maxli> davidb: yes
  366. # [18:52] <@davidb> good good - didn't notice
  367. # [18:54] <@firebot> faulkner.steve@gmail.com requested needinfo from jboriss@mozilla.c om on bug 670928.
  368. # [18:54] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=670928 enh, --, ---, eitan, REOP, HTML5 element and WAI-ARIA landmark roles easily navigable in Firefox
  369. # [18:55] <@davidb> SteveF: did you mean to need info jboriss?
  370. # [18:55] * Quits: @surkov (surkov@4F778CCB.95871A73.E17943EE.IP) (Quit: surkov)
  371. # [18:55] <SteveF> yes, i have asked her a few questions in preceding comments
  372. # [18:56] <@davidb> ok
  373. # [18:56] <SteveF> and wanted to put it on her radar for response, is that not OK?
  374. # [18:57] <SteveF> if not can remove it
  375. # [18:57] <@davidb> it is fine AFAIK
  376. # [18:57] * Joins: scott_gonzalez (scott_gonz@moz-ADF98556.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
  377. # [18:58] <SteveF> added this data point to bug WEBAIM Survey of Users with Motor Disabilities Results http://webaim.org/projects/motordisabilitysurvey/
  378. # [19:11] * habber-lunch is now known as habber
  379. # [19:12] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@moz-C35543CE.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: Leaving.)
  380. # [19:16] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@moz-C35543CE.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  381. # [19:16] * Quits: scott_gonzalez (scott_gonz@moz-ADF98556.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Quit: scott_gonzalez)
  382. # [19:21] * Joins: darkowlzz|zZzz (sunny@BCA1CFDD.A20C89E9.27560D6E.IP)
  383. # [19:22] * Joins: darkowlzzzz (sunny@BFB1FC6A.687E16A1.F44414AF.IP)
  384. # [19:23] * Quits: darkowlzz|zZzz (sunny@BCA1CFDD.A20C89E9.27560D6E.IP) (Ping timeout)
  385. # [19:23] * darkowlzzzz is now known as darkowlzz
  386. # [19:29] * Joins: fxa90id (fxa90id@moz-42E1950E.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl)
  387. # [19:29] * Joins: lizzard (ehenry@moz-5A4BE8E8.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  388. # [19:40] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@moz-C35543CE.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: Leaving.)
  389. # [19:49] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@moz-C35543CE.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  390. # [19:55] * Joins: scott_gonzalez (scott_gonz@moz-ADF98556.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
  391. # [20:09] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com cancelled review?(surkov.alexander@gm ail.com) for attachment 754623 on bug 852150.
  392. # [20:09] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 756676 on bug 852150.
  393. # [20:09] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=852150 maj, --, ---, trev.saunders, NEW, "ASSERTION: No accessible parent?!" with table
  394. # [20:10] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@moz-C35543CE.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: Leaving.)
  395. # [20:18] * Quits: fxa90id (fxa90id@moz-42E1950E.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl) (Ping timeout)
  396. # [20:18] * Quits: habber (habber@moz-861E573F.nyc.biz.rr.com) (Quit: habber)
  397. # [20:30] <@davidb> ok free time (sorta)!
  398. # [20:30] * @davidb checks his list
  399. # [20:30] <@davidb> hmmm ff os apps
  400. # [20:35] * Quits: brambles (xymox@moz-969AAE9B.barwen.ch) (Ping timeout)
  401. # [20:35] * Joins: brambles (xymox@moz-969AAE9B.barwen.ch)
  402. # [20:35] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com changed the Assignee on bug 877985 from nobody@mozilla.org to marcosadp@gmail.com.
  403. # [20:35] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=877985 nor, --, ---, marcosadp, NEW, expose node_parent_of relation via accNavigate
  404. # [20:36] <@eeejay> brb
  405. # [20:38] <@firebot> marcosadp@gmail.com requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 756704 on bug 877985.
  406. # [20:51] * Joins: habber (habber@moz-8654C0B7.nyc.res.rr.com)
  407. # [20:57] * Quits: maxli (maxli@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Ping timeout)
  408. # [20:58] * Joins: maxli (maxli@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
  409. # [20:59] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@A323B879.C75CDC83.4A6B528C.IP)
  410. # [21:05] * Quits: scott_gonzalez (scott_gonz@moz-ADF98556.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Quit: scott_gonzalez)
  411. # [21:11] * Joins: yzen (Adium@AA2C085E.10C8AEF8.9A8C35B4.IP)
  412. # [21:19] <@firebot> yura.zenevich@gmail.com granted review for attachment 756575 on bug 877655.
  413. # [21:19] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=877655 nor, --, ---, marco.zehe, ASSI, Add tests for state utterance presence
  414. # [21:27] * Joins: fxa90id (fxa90id@moz-EC9DB836.multimo.pl)
  415. # [21:44] * Quits: SteveF (chatzilla@moz-3F778890.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout)
  416. # [21:58] * Gijs_away is now known as Gijs
  417. # [22:14] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@A323B879.C75CDC83.4A6B528C.IP) (Quit: victorporof)
  418. # [22:32] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 878218 filed by cpeterson@mozilla.com.
  419. # [22:32] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=878218 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, JavaScript Warning: "ReferenceError: reference to undefined property this._activatePref" {file: "res
  420. # [22:40] <@hub> davidb: did you get my expense report for the work week? I think at has been sent to you
  421. # [22:40] <@davidb> hub: approved it this morning
  422. # [22:41] <@hub> davidb: ah ok, I didn't get notified of that though
  423. # [22:41] <@davidb> odd
  424. # [22:41] <fxa90id> :-)
  425. # [22:41] <@hub> also it should be mlee now
  426. # [22:41] <fxa90id> davidb, how to unite with a11y code ?
  427. # [22:41] <@davidb> hub: ok - well i have no unapproved items (just checked)
  428. # [22:41] <@davidb> fxa90id: crack pie
  429. # [22:41] <@davidb> pipe
  430. # [22:42] <@davidb> aw man i gotta run
  431. # [22:42] <fxa90id> :D
  432. # [22:42] <fxa90id> crack pipe ? :D
  433. # [22:42] <@davidb> fxa90id: reading the tests to see expected stuff is a good start
  434. # [22:42] <@davidb> then dive into implementation
  435. # [22:42] <@davidb> maybe do some trace debugging to check flow
  436. # [22:42] <@davidb> etc
  437. # [22:42] <fxa90id> trace debugging ?
  438. # [22:42] <fxa90id> :D
  439. # [22:42] <fxa90id> gdb?
  440. # [22:43] <@davidb> google it :)
  441. # [22:43] <@davidb> gotta run
  442. # [22:43] * Quits: @davidb (davidb@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Quit: davidb)
  443. # [22:43] <fxa90id> :D
  444. # [22:43] <fxa90id> bye bye
  445. # [22:52] * Joins: SteveF (chatzilla@moz-3F778890.cable.virginmedia.com)
  446. # [22:55] * Quits: SteveF (chatzilla@moz-3F778890.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout)
  447. # [22:58] <yzen> eeejay: ping
  448. # [22:58] <@eeejay> yzen, hi
  449. # [22:58] <yzen> eeejay: wanted to consult with you about bug 877124
  450. # [22:58] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=877124 nor, --, ---, yura.zenevich, NEW, [AccessFu] Trust explicitly associated names for children of current pivot.
  451. # [22:59] <@eeejay> yzen, yeah?
  452. # [23:00] <yzen> eeejay: so PivotContext._traverse is what we use to read the tree. if the rule that we currently have in genForContext is applicable to every accessible element, it could be just one stop condition for _traverse's recursion
  453. # [23:01] <yzen> unless im missing something
  454. # [23:02] <@eeejay> yzen, i think we should cache the true subtree
  455. # [23:02] <@eeejay> yzen, not cache a pruned version
  456. # [23:03] * Quits: darkowlzz (sunny@BFB1FC6A.687E16A1.F44414AF.IP) (Ping timeout)
  457. # [23:03] <@eeejay> yzen, i was thinking maybe it would be worth having a generator method that takes and argument
  458. # [23:04] <@eeejay> yzen, unify the caching for both order traversals
  459. # [23:04] <@eeejay> yzen, cache the actual tree ie {parent: [children]}
  460. # [23:04] <yzen> eeejay: so you think it's ok in addition to the actual tree?
  461. # [23:04] <@eeejay> yzen, and then have a generator function for each order
  462. # [23:04] <yzen> to have it that is
  463. # [23:06] <@eeejay> yzen, do we use the ancestry more than once when presenting?
  464. # [23:06] * @eeejay checks
  465. # [23:06] * Gijs is now known as Gijs_away
  466. # [23:07] <@eeejay> yzen, hm. looks like we only use it once, so maybe not cache it
  467. # [23:08] <yzen> eeejay: you mean newAncestry?
  468. # [23:18] * Quits: lizzard (ehenry@moz-5A4BE8E8.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Quit: lizzard)
  469. # [23:20] * Gijs_away is now known as Gijs
  470. # [23:23] * Quits: maxli (maxli@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
  471. # [23:24] <@eeejay> yzen, sorry, not ancestry. descendants
  472. # [23:25] * Joins: SteveF (chatzilla@moz-3F778890.cable.virginmedia.com)
  473. # [23:26] <yzen> eeejay: alright, ill try that, thanks :)
  474. # [23:27] <yzen> ok gotta run..
  475. # [23:27] * Quits: yzen (Adium@AA2C085E.10C8AEF8.9A8C35B4.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
  476. # [23:29] * Quits: habber (habber@moz-8654C0B7.nyc.res.rr.com) (Quit: habber)
  477. # [23:30] * Quits: SteveF (chatzilla@moz-3F778890.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout)
  478. # [23:33] * Joins: lizzard (ehenry@moz-5A4BE8E8.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  479. # [23:43] * Quits: rednaks (rednaks@6249B2B2.98FD7301.55FFA9B4.IP) (Quit: Téléportation !)
  480. # [23:44] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from yura.zenevich@gmail .com for attachment 756796 on bug 878218.
  481. # [23:44] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=878218 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, JavaScript Warning: "ReferenceError: reference to undefined property this._activatePref" {file: "res
  482. # [23:46] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org changed the Assignee on bug 878218 from nobody@mozilla.org to eitan@monotonous.org.
  483. # Session Close: Sat Jun 01 00:00:00 2013

The end :)