/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2013-08-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 09 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
  3. # [00:01] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com granted review for attachment 787412 on bug 900097.
  4. # [00:01] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=900097 nor, --, ---, maxli, NEW, searchbarpanel shouldn't be a button accessible
  5. # [00:04] <@firebot> enndeakin@gmail.com denied review for attachment 787412 on bug 900097.
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  10. # [00:39] <@firebot> maxli@maxli.ca requested review from enndeakin@gmail.com for attachment 787806 on bug 900097.
  11. # [00:39] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=900097 nor, --, ---, maxli, NEW, searchbarpanel shouldn't be a button accessible
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  31. # [01:35] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 903187 filed by surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  32. # [01:35] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=903187 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, implement accessibility of HTML ins and del elements
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  35. # [02:00] <@firebot> enndeakin@gmail.com granted review for attachment 787806 on bug 900097.
  36. # [02:00] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=900097 nor, --, ---, maxli, NEW, searchbarpanel shouldn't be a button accessible
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  44. # [02:17] <@firebot> maxli@maxli.ca requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 787862 on bug 900097.
  45. # [02:17] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=900097 nor, --, ---, maxli, NEW, searchbarpanel shouldn't be a button accessible
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  109. # [14:46] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com cancelled needinfo?(dbolter@mozilla.c om) on bug 798492.
  110. # [14:46] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=798492 nor, --, ---, dbolter, NEW, Deprecate/Remove our Windows MSAA BSTR accRole hack
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  112. # [15:04] <@firebot> maxli@maxli.ca requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 784479 on bug 899333.
  113. # [15:05] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=899333 nor, --, ---, maxli, NEW, Pivot text traversal should traverse into the subtree
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  123. # [16:23] <@firebot> yura.zenevich@gmail.com requested needinfo from surkov.alexander@ gmail.com on bug 897032.
  124. # [16:23] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=897032 nor, --, ---, yura.zenevich, NEW, live region object attribute aren't exposed on hidden accessible
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  129. # [18:36] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com cancelled needinfo?(surkov.alexander@ gmail.com) on bug 897032.
  130. # [18:36] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=897032 nor, --, ---, yura.zenevich, NEW, live region object attribute aren't exposed on hidden accessible
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  135. # [19:24] <yzen> surkov: hi
  136. # [19:24] <@surkov> yzen: hey
  137. # [19:27] <yzen> surkov: so regarding your comment, i was thinking that after AccHideEvent since the accessible would not be part of the acc tree?
  138. # [19:28] <@surkov> yzen: right but you have a reference to the parent which is still part of subtree
  139. # [19:29] <yzen> surkov: right, that's what i was trying to describe in my comment, at the time the even is fired, it does not have a reference to the parent any more either
  140. # [19:30] <@surkov> yzen: AccHideEvent::mParent is null?
  141. # [19:30] <yzen> surkov: one sec, double checking
  142. # [19:37] <yzen> surkov: no, but mAccessible's Parent is ...
  143. # [19:38] <@surkov> AccHideEvent::mParent points to old parent
  144. # [19:38] <@surkov> mAccessible::mParent is null because accessible was detached from the tree
  145. # [19:38] <yzen> surkov: got it
  146. # [19:41] <yzen> surkov: in this case though, SetLiveContainerAttributes is called internally from Accessible::NativeAttributes, i would need to get hold of the AccHideEvent::mParent somehow?
  147. # [19:41] <@surkov> yzen: can you operate on mParent instead?
  148. # [19:42] <@surkov> like get liveContainerAttributes for the parent?
  149. # [19:42] <@surkov> mm, wait
  150. # [19:43] <yzen> ya that one is null
  151. # [19:43] <@surkov> you can workaround that on accessFu side having AccHideEvent::mParent
  152. # [19:44] <@surkov> but here you probably need some caching
  153. # [19:46] <@surkov> sure, you could keep AccHideEvent somewhere globally and make Accessible::NativeAttributes to check if the accessible belongs to that AccHideEvent
  154. # [19:46] <@surkov> but it's sort of hacky
  155. # [19:46] * @surkov curious what tbsaunde thinks
  156. # [19:47] <@surkov> but caching is nicer because it would make out-of-process AT working as well
  157. # [19:47] <yzen> surkov: ya i ended up thinking about the same approach (from the accessfu side)
  158. # [19:47] <@tbsaunde> what problem are we trying to solve?
  159. # [19:47] <@surkov> because now AT are forced to have own caching
  160. # [19:48] <@surkov> tbsaunde: when accessible is hidden AT still needs to know if it's a part of live region
  161. # [19:48] <@tbsaunde> surkov: I thought you could get at parent of removed subtree through accevent?
  162. # [19:49] <@surkov> we can
  163. # [19:49] <@surkov> but that means 1) hacking into accessFu or 2) introduce some static to keep current AccHideEvent and then check it in NativeAttrs()
  164. # [19:50] <@surkov> and out-of-process AT still don't benefit from this
  165. # [19:51] <@tbsaunde> why?
  166. # [19:52] <@tbsaunde> when you get hide event you get parent and look at attributes, what's the problem?
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  169. # [20:00] <yzen> surkov: so you think i should consider the accessfu approach ?
  170. # [20:00] <@surkov> tbsaunde: the accessible is deattached from the tree at that point
  171. # [20:01] <@surkov> yzen: it's the easiest thing you can do
  172. # [20:01] <@surkov> so it depends on what you want
  173. # [20:01] <@surkov> if you want to fix a problem and move further then accessFu is a way to go
  174. # [20:02] <@surkov> if you want to find correct/longterm solution then you need to think
  175. # [20:06] <@tbsaunde> surkov: which the parent or the accessible itself?
  176. # [20:06] <@surkov> tbsaunde: the accessible
  177. # [20:06] <@surkov> when we do updateTree then we deattaach it from the tree
  178. # [20:07] <@tbsaunde> surkov: but you want the attributes of the parent so that seems fine?
  179. # [20:08] <@surkov> tbsaunde: yeah, parent still work if you have it
  180. # [20:08] <yzen> surkov: would you explaine the issue with out of process AT ?
  181. # [20:08] <@surkov> yzen: they handle events async
  182. # [20:08] <yzen> ok
  183. # [20:08] <@surkov> so when they got hide event then accessible was destroyed
  184. # [20:08] <@surkov> if you don't have any cache of its properties then you don't have an access to them
  185. # [20:09] <@tbsaunde> surkov: but you do have the parent through the AccEvent no?
  186. # [20:09] <@surkov> tbsaunde: if you are accessFu then yes
  187. # [20:10] <@surkov> if you are NVDA or JAWS then no :)
  188. # [20:11] <@tbsaunde> I'd tend to say it would make sense to just make ia2 events better then :)
  189. # [20:12] <yzen> surkov: in case of caching, would just caching the content-foo attributes be enough, or I would actually need a parent/acchideevent?
  190. # [20:13] <@surkov> yzen: hard to say, caching means extra memory and some work to keep it udpated
  191. # [20:13] <@surkov> tbsaunde: right :)
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  193. # [20:17] * @tbsaunde wonders why yzen wouldn't want to use events
  194. # [20:18] <yzen> tbsaunde: you mean from the accessfu side ?
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  197. # [20:24] <@tbsaunde> yzen: yes
  198. # [20:24] <jamesn> Does FF change the role it associates with a table row depending on the CSS classes associated with it? I'm seeing some really weird behaviour
  199. # [20:24] <yzen> tbsaunde: i can, though surkov recommended i take a look at bug 897032
  200. # [20:24] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=897032 nor, --, ---, yura.zenevich, NEW, live region object attribute aren't exposed on hidden accessible
  201. # [20:24] <@surkov> yzen: well, fixing that bug might take lot of time
  202. # [20:24] <@surkov> and perhaps no much win of it
  203. # [20:25] <@tbsaunde> yzen: but I mean why would you cache stuff when you can just look at old parent
  204. # [20:25] <yzen> surkov: tbsaunde: sounds good, ill address this on the accessfu side, will keep the above one on the radar though
  205. # [20:25] <@surkov> jamesn: it could, accessible tree is layout based
  206. # [20:26] <jamesn> ugh. I'm trying to hide the logical table header offscreen but when I do that the tr simply disappears from the accessible tree and I get orphan THs
  207. # [20:27] <jamesn> surkov: it still seems to work with AT but it is ugly logically
  208. # [20:27] <@surkov> jamesn: can you show an example?
  209. # [20:28] <jamesn> surkov: sure I'll upload it somewhere. Hang on
  210. # [20:28] <@surkov> ok
  211. # [20:29] <jamesn> surkov: here you go http://jnurthen.users.sonic.net/hiddenTableHeader.html
  212. # [20:34] <@surkov> jamesn: it's sort of weird that you don't have a row but you have cells
  213. # [20:34] <@surkov> jamesn: do you want to have accessibles for cells?
  214. # [20:34] <@surkov> and do you want to have them visible on the screen?
  215. # [20:35] <jamesn> surkov: yeah - there should be a row and the cells. It is to solve the static table header case. I have a "header" table hidden using aria-hidden and a logical header row which I hide off-screen so AT sees it
  216. # [20:36] <jamesn> surkov: I noticed that playing around with the css sometimes the row gets exposed as a paragraph and if i remove the absolute positioning it gets exposed as a row - but then it becomes visible and I don;t want that
  217. # [20:37] <jamesn> surkov: I notice that chrome exposes it as ROLE_SYSTEM_ROW. I haven't checked IE as that is a pain ;)
  218. # [20:38] <@surkov> browsers are all different here I believe :)
  219. # [20:38] <jamesn> surkov: the main thing is that it works ok with JAWS - but it is still ugly
  220. # [20:38] * Quits: rednaks (rednaks@1F07AB64.D0C06002.55FFA9B4.IP) (Quit: Téléportation !)
  221. # [20:38] <@surkov> jamesn: so you need to expose that row and its cells to AT but not make them visual, correct?
  222. # [20:38] <jamesn> surkov: correct
  223. # [20:39] <jamesn> surkov: I have a different row exposed visually which is hidden from AT using aria-hidden
  224. # [20:39] <@surkov> it must be tricky, if you move it out of screen then it should get the proper state
  225. # [20:39] <@surkov> and some AT like zoom screen might be tricked by that
  226. # [20:40] <@surkov> but can't you use those two tables and no that row?
  227. # [20:40] <@tbsaunde> why can't these be the same row?
  228. # [20:40] <@surkov> sorry?
  229. # [20:40] <jamesn> tbsaunde: often folks want to have a static row header and then a scrolling table region
  230. # [20:41] <jamesn> tbsaunde: that doesn't work if you have them in the same table
  231. # [20:41] <@surkov> if you would connected these tables via aria-describedby/labelledby then would it make a trick?
  232. # [20:41] <jamesn> tbsaunde: and you can't have table headers in a different table for AT
  233. # [20:42] <jamesn> surkov: I'm trying to avoid using role=grid as that implies an interactive table and I don't want to have to add the full keyboard model
  234. # [20:42] <@surkov> jamesn: @headers don't help as well?
  235. # [20:42] <jamesn> surkov: I really wish aria had a role=table as that would solve
  236. # [20:42] <jamesn> surkov: @headers are not allowed to reference a different table
  237. # [20:43] <@surkov> I though @headers are allowed to reference anything
  238. # [20:43] <@surkov> iirc we fixed some bug in Firefox recently about this
  239. # [20:43] <jamesn> surkov: really? i thought that was a WCAG violation
  240. # [20:43] <@surkov> but iirc spec doesn't restrict it
  241. # [20:43] <@surkov> I don't want lie though
  242. # [20:44] <jamesn> surkov: I have always taught that headers must reference the same table - but if that is no longer true I would be super happy about it
  243. # [20:46] <@surkov> spec says: This attribute specifies the list of header cells that provide header information for the current data cell. The value of this attribute is a space-separated list of cell names; those cells must be named by setting their id attribute. Authors generally use the headers attribute to help non-visual user agents render header information about data cells (e.g., header information is spoken prior to the cell data), but the
  244. # [20:46] <@surkov> attribute may also be used in conjunction with style sheets. See also the scope attribute.
  245. # [20:46] <jamesn> surkov: I can't find anything specific in WCAG. I'm going to have to run a few tests
  246. # [20:46] <@surkov> it makes sense
  247. # [20:47] <@surkov> jamesn: also see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=704465
  248. # [20:47] <@firebot> Bug 704465 nor, --, mozilla24, surkov.alexander, RESO FIXED, any element pointed @headers attribute should be exposed as table header
  249. # [20:48] <@surkov> they talk about the same table
  250. # [20:48] <@surkov> The headers attribute, if specified, must contain a string consisting of an unordered set of unique space-separated tokens that are case-sensitive, each of which must have the value of an ID of a th element taking part in the same table as the td or th element .
  251. # [20:48] <jamesn> surkov: thanks for your help. I will investigate and get back to you. I have to run to a meeting
  252. # [20:48] <@surkov> sure
  253. # [20:48] <@surkov> yw
  254. # [21:02] * Joins: rednaks (rednaks@1F07AB64.D0C06002.55FFA9B4.IP)
  255. # [21:09] <@davidb> surkov: do you want to be reviewer for bstr hack removal?
  256. # [21:09] <@davidb> (i need to self review first)
  257. # [21:09] <@surkov> davidb: I could
  258. # [21:09] <@davidb> ty
  259. # [21:24] * davidb is now known as davidb|afk
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  262. # [21:49] <jamesn> surkov: If I force role=row on the off-screen row that seems to solve my problem. Should I be doing this generally on any content I hide off-screen to avoid any issues?
  263. # [21:50] * davidb|afk is now known as davidb
  264. # [21:50] <@surkov> jamesn: tables are sort of special
  265. # [21:50] <@surkov> in your case I think gecko creates different layout object
  266. # [21:51] <@surkov> jamesn: but anyway I'd say either you should see row accessible and cells or you shouldn't see them at all
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  268. # [21:51] <@surkov> jamesn: may I ask you to file a bug attaching a test case, it's worth to investigate
  269. # [21:52] <jamesn> surkov: sure but I'm super busy at the moment. I'll try to remember once I get back from a trip in September (or if I have a spare minute on the trip)
  270. # [21:53] <@surkov> sure, thank you
  271. # [21:53] <jamesn> surkov: I don't think i can reference headers in a seperate table as HTML5 doesn't allow it and it doesn't work in FF < 24
  272. # [21:54] <@surkov> right
  273. # [21:54] <@surkov> I saw the same wording
  274. # [21:54] * Quits: @davidb (davidb@13F2CEC5.7672369.D8E68FF6.IP) (Quit: davidb)
  275. # [21:55] <jamesn> surkov: on a completely different topic is there a good reason I have to have JAWS started before FF in order for stuff to work properly. This gets our QA folks all the time
  276. # [21:55] <@surkov> jamesn: yep, you need to start JAWS before FF, we do JAWS detection and change windows hierarchy
  277. # [21:56] <@surkov> I guess they still works in FF 3.6 windows hierarchy
  278. # [21:56] <@surkov> so we emulate that hierarchy for JAWS after FfF 3.6
  279. # [21:56] <jamesn> ugh
  280. # [21:56] <jamesn> any way you can error if you detect JAWS running and you haven't changed hierarchy?
  281. # [21:57] <jamesn> it causes a ton of lost time
  282. # [21:57] <@surkov> mm, I think we could change the hierarchy in that case, we didn't do that because users usually run their screen readers permanently
  283. # [21:58] <jamesn> QA don't :()
  284. # [21:58] <@surkov> I see
  285. # [21:58] <jamesn> should i log a bug?
  286. # [21:59] <@surkov> jamesn: yes please
  287. # [22:01] * Quits: jamesn (jamesn@moz-7DAF1A3B.oracle.com) (Ping timeout)
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  290. # [22:06] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 903582 filed by maxli@maxli.ca.
  291. # [22:06] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=903582 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] JavaScript Error: "TypeError: can't access dead object" when activating links
  292. # [22:14] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 903585 filed by maxli@maxli.ca.
  293. # [22:14] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=903585 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, VoiceOver draws the bounding box of an element wrong on Retina displays
  294. # [22:45] * Quits: maxli (maxli@13F2CEC5.7672369.D8E68FF6.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
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  297. # [23:14] <@hub> eeejay: some people report build failures in pico when building for Keon
  298. # [23:15] <@eeejay> hub, yikes
  299. # [23:15] <@eeejay> hub, bug#?
  300. # [23:15] <@hub> eeejay: #geeksphone right now.
  301. # [23:16] * Quits: yzen (yzen@AA2C085E.10C8AEF8.9A8C35B4.IP) (Quit: yzen)
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  307. # Session Close: Sat Aug 10 00:00:01 2013

The end :)