/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2013-09-11 / end
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- # Session Start: Wed Sep 11 00:00:00 2013
- # Session Ident: #accessibility
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- # [01:45] <@eeejay> surkov, hi. are you around?
- # [01:46] <@surkov> eeejay: I am
- # [01:46] <@eeejay> surkov, i have a question about some pattern i see on the web that is giving me a headache. wondering if we could make a workaround in a11y core
- # [01:47] <@surkov> eeejay: details?
- # [01:47] <@eeejay> surkov, <input type="checkbox"> are very hard to theme in gecko
- # [01:48] <@eeejay> so in the gaia settings app, they use the <label> as a press target, and style an adjacent <span>
- # [01:48] * @eeejay looks for the code
- # [01:49] <@eeejay> https://github.com/mozilla-b2g/gaia/blob/master/apps/settings/index.html#L286
- # [01:49] * @eeejay makes a screen shot
- # [01:49] <@surkov> what's wrong about it?
- # [01:51] <@eeejay> surkov, https://www.dropbox.com/s/nl39bu6hlxl8060/Screenshot%20from%202013-09-10%2016%3A46%3A31.png
- # [01:51] <@eeejay> surkov, so the actual checkbox is effectivly hidden
- # [01:52] <@eeejay> surkov, to make it screen reader friendly, you would potentially give the <label> a role of checkbox
- # [01:52] <@surkov> what a11y tree is?
- # [01:52] * @eeejay digs
- # [01:52] <@surkov> why not span then?
- # [01:53] <@surkov> and why do you need checkbox at all?
- # [01:54] <@eeejay> surkov, https://www.dropbox.com/s/14o5onky9j9mlie/Screenshot%20from%202013-09-10%2016%3A50%3A04.png
- # [01:54] <@eeejay> surkov, to tell the user they are on a toggable control
- # [01:55] <@eeejay> surkov, because sighted users could tap anywhere on the item, not just on the little switch
- # [01:56] <@surkov> so they use invisible checkbox input to allow the user tap anywhere on the item?
- # [01:56] <@eeejay> surkov, oops, that is not tue current a11y tree
- # [01:56] <@eeejay> that is a patched version
- # [01:56] <@eeejay> surkov, right. and they use the label to capture the click
- # [01:57] <@surkov> so label don't work without checkbox control?
- # [01:57] <@eeejay> surkov, the problem is that we need to re-invent the checkbox since it is invisible, or re-expose it
- # [01:58] * @eeejay gets actual a11y tree
- # [01:58] <@surkov> eeejay: giving label a checkbox role doesn't help?
- # [01:58] <@eeejay> surkov, right.. that is what i want to do. the problem is then we need to separately keep aria-checked up to date
- # [01:59] <@surkov> that's right, how do they update span visual state?
- # [01:59] <@surkov> can they do that there?
- # [02:00] <@eeejay> surkov, so the solution that would be cool to support in a11y core, is if an item has a state of checkable, but no state is explicitly given, use the first checkable child's state
- # [02:00] <@eeejay> surkov, they do it with css selectors
- # [02:00] <@eeejay> there is very little javascript here, and they don't want to add more because of perf
- # [02:01] <@surkov> that's crazy
- # [02:01] <@eeejay> :)
- # [02:02] <@eeejay> surkov, even if we did, we would get double state change events
- # [02:02] <@surkov> why so?
- # [02:02] <@eeejay> once from the original checkbox, and one from the aria checkbox
- # [02:03] <@eeejay> but i guess that would always be the case...
- # [02:03] <@surkov> original checkbox is not accessible or?
- # [02:03] <@eeejay> surkov, opacity 0
- # [02:03] <@surkov> does it have an accessible?
- # [02:03] * @eeejay is talking himself out of an a11y core workaround
- # [02:03] <@eeejay> one sec..
- # [02:05] <@eeejay> surkov, https://www.dropbox.com/s/84btsl12t6albo6/Screenshot%20from%202013-09-10%2017%3A01%3A40.png
- # [02:06] <@surkov> what's the problem of this tree?
- # [02:07] <@eeejay> surkov, nothing. the previous screenshot was the other branch i am working on now
- # [02:07] <@eeejay> my current solution is this:
- # [02:09] <@eeejay> https://github.com/eeejay/gaia/compare/bug-914892?expand=1
- # [02:10] <@surkov> eeejay: sorry but I still miss the probem you need to solve
- # [02:10] <@surkov> you have checkbox that has opacity 0 - why it doesn't work for you?
- # [02:12] <@eeejay> surkov, it is not touch friendly, or friendly at all. i want to take all of these elements and unify them into one checkbox object with the right state and label
- # [02:12] <@eeejay> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=914892#c2
- # [02:12] <@firebot> Bug 914892 nor, --, ---, eitan, NEW, Make switch/checkbox/radio options screen reader friendly
- # [02:13] <@surkov> eeejay: like listiem was a checkbox itself?
- # [02:13] <@eeejay> potentially
- # [02:13] <@surkov> why it doesn't touch friendly btw? can't you click on label?
- # [02:13] <@eeejay> surkov, you could. it is touch friendly, but not in screen reader mode
- # [02:14] <@surkov> what's wrong with screen reader mode?
- # [02:14] <@eeejay> surkov, have you played with gaia yet?
- # [02:14] <@surkov> nope
- # [02:14] <@eeejay> surkov, if you checkout gaia master, and run it in nightly there is a nice screen reader simulator, and you could see how it would work
- # [02:15] <@surkov> ok, but could you describe the problem in couple phrases? :)
- # [02:17] <@eeejay> it is hard to explain, but with the status quo you have an unlabeled checkbutton, and an anchor tag
- # [02:18] <@eeejay> surkov, the ultimate user experience was if there was only one item that is labeled correctly and is checkable, but it is not easy to do
- # [02:18] <@surkov> you can give aria-label to label it, what's anchor for?
- # [02:18] <@eeejay> the anchor is the effective label, so i used aria-labelledby
- # [02:18] <@surkov> what's the span for?
- # [02:18] <@eeejay> surkov, the span is what is used to render the pretty switch
- # [02:19] <@surkov> ok
- # [02:19] <@surkov> btw, why do they need anchor for label?
- # [02:20] <@eeejay> surkov, no clue..
- # [02:20] <@surkov> so if anchor was a label then would you have a problem?
- # [02:21] <@eeejay> then there would be two labels for the same checkbox
- # [02:22] <@surkov> if you do role presentation on label as you did then the problem is not solved yet?
- # [02:25] <@eeejay> surkov, it is ok. but not perfect :) because while visually it is an atomic control, when you navigate with the screen reader, you land on the checkbox, and then on label, even thought they take up the same space
- # [02:25] <@surkov> and that anchor can't be hidden by presentation role because it's focusable, right?
- # [02:27] <@eeejay> surkov, it could be hidden, but its text contents won't be hidden (presentation does not do that)
- # [02:28] <@surkov> eeejay: what about aria-hidden, accessFu supports it :)
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- # [02:28] <@eeejay> surkov, i know. but i don't want to abuse it!
- # [02:28] <@surkov> poor web developers :)
- # [02:28] <@surkov> ARIA doesn't help
- # [02:29] <@eeejay> surkov, yeah. like i said, the ultimate solution was that if you give an item a checkable role, it would propogate the state and events of its descendants
- # [02:29] <@eeejay> then people could make pretty widgets and they would automatically work
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- # [02:30] <@eeejay> well, the ultimate solution was if checkboxes were properly themeable
- # [02:31] <@surkov> in that case you would still have anchor
- # [02:32] <@eeejay> surkov, not if the role was put on the parent of both anchor and label
- # [02:32] <@eeejay> <li>
- # [02:32] <@surkov> so anchor inside checkbox
- # [02:32] <@eeejay> then we wouldn't need to explicitly label either, because it would get it from the subtree
- # [02:32] <@eeejay> yeah
- # [02:33] <@eeejay> its possible today..
- # [02:33] <@eeejay> that node might need to be stripped and only have the text leaf, but that is another issue
- # [02:35] <@eeejay> surkov, btw, if you want to play with accessfu: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/screen-reader-simulator/
- # [02:36] <@surkov> eeejay: I would try to remove that label and checkbox at all, everything else wrap by ARIA
- # [02:36] <@surkov> cool, it's available on desktop already
- # [02:38] <@eeejay> surkov, how do you mean remove?
- # [02:40] <@surkov> eeejay: just remove, add some js if necessary for anchor and span
- # [02:41] <@surkov> isn't it doable?
- # [02:41] <@eeejay> surkov, i don't think so
- # [02:41] <@surkov> what prevents?
- # [02:41] <@eeejay> surkov, the span is there it get automagically styled, with a "+" css selector
- # [02:42] <@eeejay> and the anchor, even if it was a span or div, it would still be the same issue
- # [02:42] <@surkov> eeejay: what + selection is about?
- # [02:43] <@surkov> and how checkbox input help with it?
- # [02:43] <@eeejay> surkov, it allows the span to be styled by the state of the checkbox, so #mycheckbox:checked + span { background: checked-image; }
- # [02:44] <@surkov> so whenever I click on span I actually click on transparent checkbxo?
- # [02:44] <@surkov> some JS can help here, just add click listener and change aria-checked
- # [02:44] <@eeejay> surkov, you click on the label, which is a click-target for the checkbox
- # [02:45] <@eeejay> they are resistant to js, and i understand why
- # [02:46] <@eeejay> it is supposed to be a reusable snippet, and adding js makes that hard
- # [02:46] <@surkov> that js is running on user interaction, it shouldn't be a problem
- # [02:47] <@surkov> onclick="boa boa" in html is still a part of snippet
- # [02:47] <@eeejay> true
- # [02:48] <@surkov> having no js it's very hard to make custom widgets accessible
- # [02:48] <@surkov> no a11y props in css allowed
- # [02:48] <@surkov> but there were proposals
- # [02:48] <@eeejay> surkov, i know. that is a problem (no a11y css)
- # [02:49] <@eeejay> surkov, the trend today is to not have js for trivial things like that
- # [02:49] <@surkov> I can understand it
- # [02:51] <@eeejay> surkov, so you think getting checked state from subtree is a bad idea?
- # [02:52] <@eeejay> i guess it is not standard..
- # [02:52] <@eeejay> that should be a good enough reason
- # [02:52] <@surkov> i've never heard that this pattern is needed by anybody
- # [02:53] <@surkov> so I consider as crazy hacky workaround rather than common approach
- # [02:54] <@surkov> eeejay: probably it makes sense to file a bug about how to make this code snippet accessble
- # [02:55] <@surkov> but now I'm skeptic about supporting this kind of widgets on core level
- # [02:56] <@eeejay> yeah
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- # [14:07] <@marcoz> Good day all!
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- # [14:16] <SteveF> marcoz:hey Marco!
- # [14:20] <@marcoz> SteveF: Hi! :)
- # [14:34] <@marcoz> SteveF: What I feared in my blog post is happening. Google are pushing ChromeVox as the one-stop accessibility testing tool for VI-related techniques and ignore the rest.
- # [14:36] <SteveF> marcoz: that's not practical or desirable...
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- # [14:59] <@marcoz> yzen: Morning! :)
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- # [14:59] <yzen> marcoz: hi :)
- # [15:01] * davidb-bot waves
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- # [15:10] <@marcoz> Hi davidb-bot!
- # [15:11] <@marcoz> Hi maxli! :)
- # [15:12] <maxli> Hi marcoz!
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- # [15:20] <@davidb> heyo!
- # [15:24] <@marcoz> Heyo davidb! :)
- # [15:24] <@davidb> hi
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- # [17:43] <@marcoz> Gosh, we really have some wild markup in Gaia! As can be seen in bug 914892.
- # [17:43] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=914892 nor, --, ---, eitan, NEW, Make switch/checkbox/radio options screen reader friendly
- # [17:45] <@davidb> do i want to look?
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- # [17:50] <@marcoz> davidb: If you're curious. No review required on your part. :)
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- # [19:00] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com granted in-testsuite on bug 899433.
- # [19:00] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=899433 maj, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, Accessibility returns empty line for last line in certain cases
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- # [22:12] <@eeejay> surkov, howdy :)
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- # [22:12] <@surkov> eeejay: hey :)
- # [22:13] <@eeejay> surkov, question: i noticed that when a <label> element is styled with display:block, it becomes a generic eHyperTextType
- # [22:14] <@eeejay> surkov, maybe we can make an exception that label will always remain a label?
- # [22:14] <@surkov> eeejay: iirc we have a bug on it
- # [22:14] <@eeejay> surkov, so that is not ideal behavior?
- # [22:14] <@surkov> eeejay: yes
- # [22:16] <@eeejay> ah, bug #791916
- # [22:16] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=791916 nor, --, ---, brandondsz26, NEW, HTML label accessible should be created by tag name
- # [22:16] <@eeejay> i might snatch that bug
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- # [22:35] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 803267 on bug 791916.
- # [22:35] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=791916 nor, --, ---, brandondsz26, NEW, HTML label accessible should be created by tag name
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- # Session Close: Thu Sep 12 00:00:00 2013
The end :)