/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2013-09-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 11 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  16. # [01:45] <@eeejay> surkov, hi. are you around?
  17. # [01:46] <@surkov> eeejay: I am
  18. # [01:46] <@eeejay> surkov, i have a question about some pattern i see on the web that is giving me a headache. wondering if we could make a workaround in a11y core
  19. # [01:47] <@surkov> eeejay: details?
  20. # [01:47] <@eeejay> surkov, <input type="checkbox"> are very hard to theme in gecko
  21. # [01:48] <@eeejay> so in the gaia settings app, they use the <label> as a press target, and style an adjacent <span>
  22. # [01:48] * @eeejay looks for the code
  23. # [01:49] <@eeejay> https://github.com/mozilla-b2g/gaia/blob/master/apps/settings/index.html#L286
  24. # [01:49] * @eeejay makes a screen shot
  25. # [01:49] <@surkov> what's wrong about it?
  26. # [01:51] <@eeejay> surkov, https://www.dropbox.com/s/nl39bu6hlxl8060/Screenshot%20from%202013-09-10%2016%3A46%3A31.png
  27. # [01:51] <@eeejay> surkov, so the actual checkbox is effectivly hidden
  28. # [01:52] <@eeejay> surkov, to make it screen reader friendly, you would potentially give the <label> a role of checkbox
  29. # [01:52] <@surkov> what a11y tree is?
  30. # [01:52] * @eeejay digs
  31. # [01:52] <@surkov> why not span then?
  32. # [01:53] <@surkov> and why do you need checkbox at all?
  33. # [01:54] <@eeejay> surkov, https://www.dropbox.com/s/14o5onky9j9mlie/Screenshot%20from%202013-09-10%2016%3A50%3A04.png
  34. # [01:54] <@eeejay> surkov, to tell the user they are on a toggable control
  35. # [01:55] <@eeejay> surkov, because sighted users could tap anywhere on the item, not just on the little switch
  36. # [01:56] <@surkov> so they use invisible checkbox input to allow the user tap anywhere on the item?
  37. # [01:56] <@eeejay> surkov, oops, that is not tue current a11y tree
  38. # [01:56] <@eeejay> that is a patched version
  39. # [01:56] <@eeejay> surkov, right. and they use the label to capture the click
  40. # [01:57] <@surkov> so label don't work without checkbox control?
  41. # [01:57] <@eeejay> surkov, the problem is that we need to re-invent the checkbox since it is invisible, or re-expose it
  42. # [01:58] * @eeejay gets actual a11y tree
  43. # [01:58] <@surkov> eeejay: giving label a checkbox role doesn't help?
  44. # [01:58] <@eeejay> surkov, right.. that is what i want to do. the problem is then we need to separately keep aria-checked up to date
  45. # [01:59] <@surkov> that's right, how do they update span visual state?
  46. # [01:59] <@surkov> can they do that there?
  47. # [02:00] <@eeejay> surkov, so the solution that would be cool to support in a11y core, is if an item has a state of checkable, but no state is explicitly given, use the first checkable child's state
  48. # [02:00] <@eeejay> surkov, they do it with css selectors
  49. # [02:00] <@eeejay> there is very little javascript here, and they don't want to add more because of perf
  50. # [02:01] <@surkov> that's crazy
  51. # [02:01] <@eeejay> :)
  52. # [02:02] <@eeejay> surkov, even if we did, we would get double state change events
  53. # [02:02] <@surkov> why so?
  54. # [02:02] <@eeejay> once from the original checkbox, and one from the aria checkbox
  55. # [02:03] <@eeejay> but i guess that would always be the case...
  56. # [02:03] <@surkov> original checkbox is not accessible or?
  57. # [02:03] <@eeejay> surkov, opacity 0
  58. # [02:03] <@surkov> does it have an accessible?
  59. # [02:03] * @eeejay is talking himself out of an a11y core workaround
  60. # [02:03] <@eeejay> one sec..
  61. # [02:05] <@eeejay> surkov, https://www.dropbox.com/s/84btsl12t6albo6/Screenshot%20from%202013-09-10%2017%3A01%3A40.png
  62. # [02:06] <@surkov> what's the problem of this tree?
  63. # [02:07] <@eeejay> surkov, nothing. the previous screenshot was the other branch i am working on now
  64. # [02:07] <@eeejay> my current solution is this:
  65. # [02:09] <@eeejay> https://github.com/eeejay/gaia/compare/bug-914892?expand=1
  66. # [02:10] <@surkov> eeejay: sorry but I still miss the probem you need to solve
  67. # [02:10] <@surkov> you have checkbox that has opacity 0 - why it doesn't work for you?
  68. # [02:12] <@eeejay> surkov, it is not touch friendly, or friendly at all. i want to take all of these elements and unify them into one checkbox object with the right state and label
  69. # [02:12] <@eeejay> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=914892#c2
  70. # [02:12] <@firebot> Bug 914892 nor, --, ---, eitan, NEW, Make switch/checkbox/radio options screen reader friendly
  71. # [02:13] <@surkov> eeejay: like listiem was a checkbox itself?
  72. # [02:13] <@eeejay> potentially
  73. # [02:13] <@surkov> why it doesn't touch friendly btw? can't you click on label?
  74. # [02:13] <@eeejay> surkov, you could. it is touch friendly, but not in screen reader mode
  75. # [02:14] <@surkov> what's wrong with screen reader mode?
  76. # [02:14] <@eeejay> surkov, have you played with gaia yet?
  77. # [02:14] <@surkov> nope
  78. # [02:14] <@eeejay> surkov, if you checkout gaia master, and run it in nightly there is a nice screen reader simulator, and you could see how it would work
  79. # [02:15] <@surkov> ok, but could you describe the problem in couple phrases? :)
  80. # [02:17] <@eeejay> it is hard to explain, but with the status quo you have an unlabeled checkbutton, and an anchor tag
  81. # [02:18] <@eeejay> surkov, the ultimate user experience was if there was only one item that is labeled correctly and is checkable, but it is not easy to do
  82. # [02:18] <@surkov> you can give aria-label to label it, what's anchor for?
  83. # [02:18] <@eeejay> the anchor is the effective label, so i used aria-labelledby
  84. # [02:18] <@surkov> what's the span for?
  85. # [02:18] <@eeejay> surkov, the span is what is used to render the pretty switch
  86. # [02:19] <@surkov> ok
  87. # [02:19] <@surkov> btw, why do they need anchor for label?
  88. # [02:20] <@eeejay> surkov, no clue..
  89. # [02:20] <@surkov> so if anchor was a label then would you have a problem?
  90. # [02:21] <@eeejay> then there would be two labels for the same checkbox
  91. # [02:22] <@surkov> if you do role presentation on label as you did then the problem is not solved yet?
  92. # [02:25] <@eeejay> surkov, it is ok. but not perfect :) because while visually it is an atomic control, when you navigate with the screen reader, you land on the checkbox, and then on label, even thought they take up the same space
  93. # [02:25] <@surkov> and that anchor can't be hidden by presentation role because it's focusable, right?
  94. # [02:27] <@eeejay> surkov, it could be hidden, but its text contents won't be hidden (presentation does not do that)
  95. # [02:28] <@surkov> eeejay: what about aria-hidden, accessFu supports it :)
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  97. # [02:28] <@eeejay> surkov, i know. but i don't want to abuse it!
  98. # [02:28] <@surkov> poor web developers :)
  99. # [02:28] <@surkov> ARIA doesn't help
  100. # [02:29] <@eeejay> surkov, yeah. like i said, the ultimate solution was that if you give an item a checkable role, it would propogate the state and events of its descendants
  101. # [02:29] <@eeejay> then people could make pretty widgets and they would automatically work
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  103. # [02:30] <@eeejay> well, the ultimate solution was if checkboxes were properly themeable
  104. # [02:31] <@surkov> in that case you would still have anchor
  105. # [02:32] <@eeejay> surkov, not if the role was put on the parent of both anchor and label
  106. # [02:32] <@eeejay> <li>
  107. # [02:32] <@surkov> so anchor inside checkbox
  108. # [02:32] <@eeejay> then we wouldn't need to explicitly label either, because it would get it from the subtree
  109. # [02:32] <@eeejay> yeah
  110. # [02:33] <@eeejay> its possible today..
  111. # [02:33] <@eeejay> that node might need to be stripped and only have the text leaf, but that is another issue
  112. # [02:35] <@eeejay> surkov, btw, if you want to play with accessfu: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/screen-reader-simulator/
  113. # [02:36] <@surkov> eeejay: I would try to remove that label and checkbox at all, everything else wrap by ARIA
  114. # [02:36] <@surkov> cool, it's available on desktop already
  115. # [02:38] <@eeejay> surkov, how do you mean remove?
  116. # [02:40] <@surkov> eeejay: just remove, add some js if necessary for anchor and span
  117. # [02:41] <@surkov> isn't it doable?
  118. # [02:41] <@eeejay> surkov, i don't think so
  119. # [02:41] <@surkov> what prevents?
  120. # [02:41] <@eeejay> surkov, the span is there it get automagically styled, with a "+" css selector
  121. # [02:42] <@eeejay> and the anchor, even if it was a span or div, it would still be the same issue
  122. # [02:42] <@surkov> eeejay: what + selection is about?
  123. # [02:43] <@surkov> and how checkbox input help with it?
  124. # [02:43] <@eeejay> surkov, it allows the span to be styled by the state of the checkbox, so #mycheckbox:checked + span { background: checked-image; }
  125. # [02:44] <@surkov> so whenever I click on span I actually click on transparent checkbxo?
  126. # [02:44] <@surkov> some JS can help here, just add click listener and change aria-checked
  127. # [02:44] <@eeejay> surkov, you click on the label, which is a click-target for the checkbox
  128. # [02:45] <@eeejay> they are resistant to js, and i understand why
  129. # [02:46] <@eeejay> it is supposed to be a reusable snippet, and adding js makes that hard
  130. # [02:46] <@surkov> that js is running on user interaction, it shouldn't be a problem
  131. # [02:47] <@surkov> onclick="boa boa" in html is still a part of snippet
  132. # [02:47] <@eeejay> true
  133. # [02:48] <@surkov> having no js it's very hard to make custom widgets accessible
  134. # [02:48] <@surkov> no a11y props in css allowed
  135. # [02:48] <@surkov> but there were proposals
  136. # [02:48] <@eeejay> surkov, i know. that is a problem (no a11y css)
  137. # [02:49] <@eeejay> surkov, the trend today is to not have js for trivial things like that
  138. # [02:49] <@surkov> I can understand it
  139. # [02:51] <@eeejay> surkov, so you think getting checked state from subtree is a bad idea?
  140. # [02:52] <@eeejay> i guess it is not standard..
  141. # [02:52] <@eeejay> that should be a good enough reason
  142. # [02:52] <@surkov> i've never heard that this pattern is needed by anybody
  143. # [02:53] <@surkov> so I consider as crazy hacky workaround rather than common approach
  144. # [02:54] <@surkov> eeejay: probably it makes sense to file a bug about how to make this code snippet accessble
  145. # [02:55] <@surkov> but now I'm skeptic about supporting this kind of widgets on core level
  146. # [02:56] <@eeejay> yeah
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  188. # [14:07] <@marcoz> Good day all!
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  190. # [14:16] <SteveF> marcoz:hey Marco!
  191. # [14:20] <@marcoz> SteveF: Hi! :)
  192. # [14:34] <@marcoz> SteveF: What I feared in my blog post is happening. Google are pushing ChromeVox as the one-stop accessibility testing tool for VI-related techniques and ignore the rest.
  193. # [14:36] <SteveF> marcoz: that's not practical or desirable...
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  203. # [14:59] <@marcoz> yzen: Morning! :)
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  205. # [14:59] <yzen> marcoz: hi :)
  206. # [15:01] * davidb-bot waves
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  210. # [15:10] <@marcoz> Hi davidb-bot!
  211. # [15:11] <@marcoz> Hi maxli! :)
  212. # [15:12] <maxli> Hi marcoz!
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  216. # [15:20] <@davidb> heyo!
  217. # [15:24] <@marcoz> Heyo davidb! :)
  218. # [15:24] <@davidb> hi
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  242. # [17:43] <@marcoz> Gosh, we really have some wild markup in Gaia! As can be seen in bug 914892.
  243. # [17:43] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=914892 nor, --, ---, eitan, NEW, Make switch/checkbox/radio options screen reader friendly
  244. # [17:45] <@davidb> do i want to look?
  245. # [17:48] * clown is now known as clown_mtg
  246. # [17:50] <@marcoz> davidb: If you're curious. No review required on your part. :)
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  256. # [19:00] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com granted in-testsuite on bug 899433.
  257. # [19:00] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=899433 maj, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, Accessibility returns empty line for last line in certain cases
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  286. # [22:12] <@eeejay> surkov, howdy :)
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  288. # [22:12] <@surkov> eeejay: hey :)
  289. # [22:13] <@eeejay> surkov, question: i noticed that when a <label> element is styled with display:block, it becomes a generic eHyperTextType
  290. # [22:14] <@eeejay> surkov, maybe we can make an exception that label will always remain a label?
  291. # [22:14] <@surkov> eeejay: iirc we have a bug on it
  292. # [22:14] <@eeejay> surkov, so that is not ideal behavior?
  293. # [22:14] <@surkov> eeejay: yes
  294. # [22:16] <@eeejay> ah, bug #791916
  295. # [22:16] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=791916 nor, --, ---, brandondsz26, NEW, HTML label accessible should be created by tag name
  296. # [22:16] <@eeejay> i might snatch that bug
  297. # [22:26] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
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  299. # [22:35] <@firebot> eitan@monotonous.org requested review from surkov.alexander@gm ail.com for attachment 803267 on bug 791916.
  300. # [22:35] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=791916 nor, --, ---, brandondsz26, NEW, HTML label accessible should be created by tag name
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The end :)