/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2013-10-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 10 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
  3. # [00:06] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
  4. # [00:12] <@firebot> jamie@nvaccess.org cancelled needinfo?(jamie@nvaccess.or g) on bug 567571.
  5. # [00:12] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=567571 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, caret-moved events missing at the end of a wrapped line of text in Thunderbird message composition
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  14. # [02:51] <@eeejay> why don't we mark objects with an opacity of 0 as invisible?
  15. # [02:55] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 925209 filed by eitan@monotonous.org.
  16. # [02:55] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=925209 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Mark accessibles that have an opacity of 0 as invisible
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  64. # [13:52] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Assignee on bug 915558 from nobody@mozilla.org to trev.saunders@gmail.com.
  65. # [13:52] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Resolution on bug 915558 from --- to FIXED.
  66. # [13:52] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 915558 from REOPENED to RESOLVED.
  67. # [13:52] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 915558 from --- to mozilla27.
  68. # [13:52] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=915558 cri, P1, mozilla27, trev.saunders, RESO FIXED, XUL UI completely broken in Windows: Tabs, menus, etc.
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  83. # [15:49] <SteveF> surkov: backed out change i made to html spec on dialog focus - will let you guys work it out
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  85. # [15:49] <@surkov> SteveF: I see
  86. # [15:50] <SteveF> re you question on bug - i reverted it as you indicated you would prefer to to be worked out elsewhere
  87. # [15:58] <SteveF> surkov: I have spent too many cycles on it already, I have made a case for a how i think it should be, but its up to you guys as implementers as to how it goes
  88. # [16:00] <SteveF> surkov: FYI I have pinged jamie and mick about it, but don't see any feedback from them as being considered as AT considerations have already been dismissed
  89. # [16:00] <@surkov> SteveF: cool, they should answer I think
  90. # [16:01] <SteveF> surkov: not that it will make any difference
  91. # [16:02] <@surkov> well, more data and opitions is always valuable thing
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  97. # [16:40] <@marcoz> Yay, marriage will happen on December 30th. :)
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  99. # [16:47] <@marcoz> surkov: FN+Left Arrow and FN+RightArrow serve as Home and End keys on a Mac.
  100. # [16:48] <@surkov> marcoz: thanks!
  101. # [16:48] <@surkov> marcoz: yours marriage?
  102. # [16:48] <@marcoz> surkov: Yes!
  103. # [16:48] <@surkov> marcoz: cool, congrats :)
  104. # [16:49] <@marcoz> surkov: Thanks! :)
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  107. # [16:54] <@davidb> heyo!
  108. # [16:55] <@davidb> (forgot to open IRC)
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  110. # [17:00] <jimm> can someone fill me in on how accessibility works when we're running with content processes?
  111. # [17:02] <@davidb> surkov: ^
  112. # [17:02] <@davidb> jimm: do you mean on mobile or otherwise?
  113. # [17:02] <SteveF> marcoz: more important than marriage (congrats) you are a WAI member now (commiserations)
  114. # [17:03] <@davidb> SteveF: well put!
  115. # [17:03] <@surkov> jimm: what platform?
  116. # [17:04] <SteveF> now I know why marcoz has been on a diet, so he can squeeze into that silk number he has always desired to wear on the big day :-)
  117. # [17:04] <jimm> surkov: desktop / windows assuming we supported it
  118. # [17:05] <@surkov> jimm: last time I checked it was half working
  119. # [17:05] <@surkov> jimm: the idea is each process has own HWND that AT talks to
  120. # [17:05] <@surkov> the problem is AT weren't able to navigate between processes
  121. # [17:05] <jimm> AT?
  122. # [17:05] <jimm> clients?
  123. # [17:06] <@surkov> i.e. having an accessible from content process walk to chrome process (like get a tab object from web page)
  124. # [17:06] <@surkov> AT = assistive technology, softwares like screen readers and magnifiers
  125. # [17:06] <@surkov> so yes, clients
  126. # [17:06] <jimm> what if the content process doesn't have an hwnd?
  127. # [17:07] <jimm> on windows I don't think that will be the case since removed all native child windows
  128. # [17:07] <@surkov> jimm: then AT don't have a way to get an access to accessible objects
  129. # [17:07] <@surkov> jimm: I think we create windows on a11y layer
  130. # [17:07] <@surkov> sort of fake windows
  131. # [17:09] <jimm> I see so accessibility creates an hwnd that the ats can pick up on. and through that, the at can query the dom state of the tab.
  132. # [17:10] <jimm> have we considered having the accessibility library send rpc calls over to the content process to get state so that there's no need for the fake window?
  133. # [17:10] <jimm> or maybe caching content state that updated async from the content process?
  134. # [17:11] <@surkov> jimm: iirc the decision was it will be too slow
  135. # [17:11] <@surkov> since AT inject into process to be fast
  136. # [17:11] <@surkov> out of process AT tends to be much slower than in process AT
  137. # [17:11] <@surkov> jimm: caching is what chrome does, it will be quite different from what we do
  138. # [17:12] <jimm> heh.. my next question.. "any idea how chrome handles this?"
  139. # [17:12] <@surkov> btw, ATK (linux) does a caching but we get that for free from them
  140. # [17:12] <@surkov> yeah, it just caches :)
  141. # [17:13] <jimm> ok thanks for the info. I think there's a good chance metrofx will move to content processes next year, which is why I was curious.
  142. # [17:13] <@surkov> jimm: current a11y architecture is we get much of info on demand, so if we were asked for boundaries then we calculate it
  143. # [17:13] <@surkov> caching would mean we should build complete a11y tree
  144. # [17:14] <@surkov> I see
  145. # [17:14] <@surkov> so in summary, windows hack was faster solution for our architecture
  146. # [17:14] <@surkov> and painless
  147. # [17:15] <jimm> surkov: the ATs don't have issues with multiple processes with shared hwnds?
  148. # [17:15] <jimm> they can navigate across processes without issue?
  149. # [17:15] <@surkov> what do you mean by shared?
  150. # [17:15] <@surkov> and AT somehow worked with Firefox
  151. # [17:15] <jimm> well, say an AT loaded into the chrome process asks for the tab
  152. # [17:15] <@surkov> there was some problems
  153. # [17:16] <jimm> it then has to navigate over to another process
  154. # [17:16] <jimm> (the content process with the fake hwnd)
  155. # [17:16] <@surkov> I see, not all of them
  156. # [17:16] <jimm> I see so that would break some ATs and they would have to update their code
  157. # [17:16] <@surkov> but iirc when we talked to AT vendors about fake window solution they said it should be working
  158. # [17:17] <jimm> ok
  159. # [17:17] <@surkov> yep, likely
  160. # [17:19] <@davidb> FYI i believe chrome caches and IE does the HWND thing.
  161. # [17:20] <@davidb> (HWND is an option not originally considered here http://mindforks.blogspot.ca/2010/11/asynchronous-accessibility.html)
  162. # [17:21] <@davidb> (but comes up in the comments)
  163. # [17:21] <jimm> looks like UIA works the same way, they request a UiaRootObjectId from the WM_GETOBJECT event.
  164. # [17:22] <jimm> davidb: if that works for ie in metro, should work us there as well.
  165. # [17:22] <@davidb> yeah
  166. # [17:24] <jimm> I like your idea of async accessibility
  167. # [17:24] <jimm> I guess ms isn't planning anything like that though for windows. they seem committed to UIA.
  168. # [17:25] <@davidb> yeah dominic is right (in comments) getting the whole ecosystem moved to async is hard
  169. # [17:25] <@davidb> and experimental
  170. # [17:27] <jimm> sounds like we solved the ime problem via caching
  171. # [17:28] <jimm> ah, awesome, that's in TabParent/TabChild
  172. # [17:31] <jimm> so if we want to isolate accessibility on a non-gecko / windows input thread, sounds like we would only have to do that for the chrome process.
  173. # [17:31] <jimm> since that's the only process that needs to deal directly with windows input.
  174. # [17:31] <jimm> content processes get dom events passed over via ipc.
  175. # [17:39] <@davidb> oh!
  176. # [17:40] <@davidb> jimm: so the DOM is already cached?
  177. # [17:41] <jimm> hmm?
  178. # [17:42] <jimm> I was musing about what we'd like to do in bug 741750
  179. # [17:42] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=741750 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Add support for non-gecko thread accessibility calls to the accessibility library
  180. # [17:42] <jimm> essentially we want to separate the windows input thread from the gecko thread.
  181. # [17:43] <@davidb> ok
  182. # [17:44] <jimm> the reason is we want to separate async-pan-zoom input processing from the gecko thread.
  183. # [17:44] <@davidb> understandable
  184. # [17:44] <jimm> currently the apz handles events on the gecko thread, which can jank.
  185. # [17:46] <@davidb> yes i have experience this
  186. # [17:48] <jimm> open question is should we skip worrying about accessibility support for now and get the thread separation done, or should we block on accessibility being able to handle the thread separation.
  187. # [17:48] <@davidb> jimm: will it be pref-able?
  188. # [17:49] <@davidb> config
  189. # [17:49] <@davidb> we can't break people
  190. # [17:49] <@marcoz> SteveF: davidb: Heh thanks!
  191. # [17:49] <jimm> the thread separation? probably not since winrt widget will have to go through some pretty big changes.
  192. # [17:50] <@davidb> jimm: have you chatted with bsmith?
  193. # [17:50] <jimm> davidb: well we don't support accessibility yet in metrofx, so we're not breaking anybody.
  194. # [17:50] <@marcoz> SteveF: And what my wedding is concerned: It will be a rather unusual wedding, in that nobody is allowed to wear a tie and suit. Instead, we want it to be an 80's wedding: Jeans and sneakers or the like. :)
  195. # [17:50] <@davidb> it sounded like e10s would be config-able for a bit
  196. # [17:50] <jimm> davidb: no
  197. # [17:50] <jimm> re bsmith
  198. # [17:50] <@davidb> jimm: ok is this work in addition to the e10s work?
  199. # [17:51] <@davidb> or in lieu of? or?
  200. # [17:51] <jimm> davidb: probably concurrent, the two don't directly depend on each other.
  201. # [17:51] <@davidb> ok
  202. # [17:51] <@davidb> it is worth connecting with that team IMO
  203. # [17:51] <@davidb> just in case
  204. # [17:51] <jimm> which team is this?
  205. # [17:52] <@davidb> e10s
  206. # [17:52] <jimm> ah ok
  207. # [17:52] <@davidb> bsmith, evilpies, vlad
  208. # [17:52] <jimm> yeah we'll be chatting with them I'm sure once we get closer to switching.
  209. # [17:52] <@davidb> ok
  210. # [17:52] <@davidb> back after lunch
  211. # [17:52] <jimm> we have to get version 1.0 out the door first. :)
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  225. # [19:03] <@eeejay> yzen, ping
  226. # [19:04] * @davidb is back
  227. # [19:04] <@eeejay> davidb, welcome
  228. # [19:04] <@davidb> gracias
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  231. # [19:13] <@davidb> Gijs: is anyone keeping an eye on australis keyboard operability?
  232. # [19:13] <@davidb> also, hi
  233. # [19:13] * @davidb hunts water
  234. # [19:14] <Gijs> davidb: it shouldn't really be affected, essentially, in the sense that we're not removing the 'normal' menubar
  235. # [19:14] <Gijs> davidb: we've removed the app menu, which was never keyboard-accessible
  236. # [19:14] <Gijs> davidb: I've made the new menu panel "a little" accessible, meaning there's a keyboard shortcut for it and you can tab to it, but it'd need more work to have it be more fully featured.
  237. # [19:15] <Gijs> davidb: several people argue that it's too hard to make it properly keyboard accessible, because of the variety of items that can appear in it.
  238. # [19:15] <Gijs> davidb: so that discussion isn't really decided yet
  239. # [19:16] <Gijs> davidb: regarding customizability of buttons etc., as before with the customize panel, that's not keyboard accessible (nor is there a keyboard equivalent), and I don't think we have plans for that, either. Our plates are pretty full just with the current feature set.
  240. # [19:16] <Gijs> davidb: does that help? :)
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  242. # [19:19] * @davidb is back
  243. # [19:19] <@davidb> right, i'm less concerned with drag and drop stuff
  244. # [19:20] <@davidb> Gijs: i'll just say that i think eventually we should get rid of the 'normal' menubar
  245. # [19:20] <@davidb> but I haven't consulted the team on that
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  247. # [19:20] <@davidb> this came up at the summit
  248. # [19:20] <@davidb> from some latam mozillians
  249. # [19:20] <Gijs> davidb: yeah, I think folks are aiming towards doing that. I don't think it'll happen when we land/ship Australis
  250. # [19:20] <Gijs> davidb: I'll see what I can do regarding menupanel keyboard access
  251. # [19:21] <Gijs> I agree it's important
  252. # [19:21] <@davidb> right i daren't raise the issue formally right now ;)
  253. # [19:21] <Gijs> :)
  254. # [19:21] <@davidb> ship it
  255. # [19:21] <Gijs> We can't even currently figure out how we're dealing with keyboard shortcuts, it seems. :s
  256. # [19:21] <@davidb> Gijs: thanks… if it could get on your Q4 radar if necessary/timely than please do
  257. # [19:21] <@davidb> Q4/Q1
  258. # [19:22] <Gijs> I don't have a personal Q4 radar, but it's in our P2 buglist, so a decision/work will be done 'soon' regardless :)
  259. # [19:22] <@davidb> when will it ship?
  260. # [19:22] <Gijs> when it's ready
  261. # [19:22] <@davidb> ok
  262. # [19:22] <Gijs> :X
  263. # [19:22] <@davidb> 2017
  264. # [19:22] <@davidb> I kid
  265. # [19:22] <Gijs> We need to sort out some tab animation perf stuff
  266. # [19:22] <Gijs> then we'll land on m-c
  267. # [19:22] * @davidb nods
  268. # [19:22] <Gijs> then we'll need to fix the inevitable deluge of "omg you broke this thing that you totally didn't think about"
  269. # [19:22] <@davidb> not to mention OMGCHANGE
  270. # [19:22] <Gijs> indeed
  271. # [19:23] <Gijs> (although considering baking time, I'd like to think we've thought about a lot)
  272. # [19:23] <Gijs> (a guy can dream, right?)
  273. # [19:23] <@davidb> famous last words
  274. # [19:23] <Gijs> exactly
  275. # [19:23] <Gijs> davidb: we actually have a meeting in ~35 minutes
  276. # [19:23] <Gijs> 11am pacific
  277. # [19:23] <Gijs> if you wanna come hang out, feel invited
  278. # [19:23] <Gijs> (fx vidyo room)
  279. # [19:23] <@davidb> thanks… it is too soon
  280. # [19:23] <@davidb> i want you guys to ship
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  282. # [19:24] <@davidb> since we have the backup menu
  283. # [19:24] <@davidb> it is ok
  284. # [19:24] <Gijs> coolbeans
  285. # [19:24] <Gijs> we want us to ship too
  286. # [19:24] <Gijs> so let's hope we get that sorted soon
  287. # [19:24] <@davidb> i sit near mconley ;)
  288. # [19:24] * Gijs thinks shipping it was a Q2 goal
  289. # [19:24] <Gijs> that, umm, didn't quite work out
  290. # [19:25] <Gijs> We're on the other 90% now
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  292. # [19:26] <@davidb> Gijs: sometime I'll ask you if you think XUL should go away but I'm not asking you now.
  293. # [19:26] <Gijs> I can answer it now
  294. # [19:26] <Gijs> yes
  295. # [19:26] <@eeejay> Gijs, awesome
  296. # [19:26] <Gijs> I think it should
  297. # [19:26] <Gijs> eventually
  298. # [19:26] <@davidb> lol
  299. # [19:27] <Gijs> eeejay: what is? :)
  300. # [19:27] <Gijs> davidb: but it can't just yet... so we're stuck with it for now.
  301. # [19:27] <@eeejay> Gijs, all of it. australis a11y, and xul going away
  302. # [19:27] <Gijs> I mean, it's basically not getting nearly the attention the web platform is getting
  303. # [19:27] <Gijs> and rightly so
  304. # [19:27] <Gijs> so if we can move to HTML for our UI, I'm all in favour
  305. # [19:27] <Gijs> but it's not a trivial thing
  306. # [19:27] <@davidb> addons?
  307. # [19:28] <Gijs> what about them? :)
  308. # [19:28] <@davidb> are they screwed if we de-xulify?
  309. # [19:28] <Gijs> they're not, but some things will have to change
  310. # [19:28] <Gijs> SDK add-ons definitely aren't screwed
  311. # [19:29] <@davidb> that's good
  312. # [19:29] <Gijs> generally... stuff that uses XUL would need to migrate
  313. # [19:29] <Gijs> but that is life, to a certain extent.
  314. # [19:29] <@davidb> sure
  315. # [19:29] <Gijs> Heck, we could even write *shudder* XSLT to transform provided XUL into equivalent HTML.
  316. # [19:29] <Gijs> as a temp fallback for add-on
  317. # [19:29] <Gijs> *add-on provided XUL
  318. # [19:30] <Gijs> but that's not an idea that's attractive to me, tbh
  319. # [19:30] <@davidb> does firebug use XUL for UI?
  320. # [19:30] <Gijs> it did when I last touched it
  321. # [19:30] <@davidb> figured
  322. # [19:30] <Gijs> you know, 7 years ago
  323. # [19:30] <@davidb> ha
  324. # [19:30] <@davidb> time flies
  325. # [19:30] <Gijs> who knows what they do now
  326. # [19:30] <Gijs> yeah
  327. # [19:30] * Gijs isn't keen to go near it again
  328. # [19:30] <Gijs> devtools are awesome
  329. # [19:30] * @davidb nods
  330. # [19:30] <Gijs> and they use xul, actually
  331. # [19:30] <Gijs> (to an extent)
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  348. # [20:03] <@surkov> where's wally http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevneedham/10094346756/lightbox/
  349. # [20:03] <@davidb> i can see us
  350. # [20:04] <@surkov> sure, you new where we were
  351. # [20:04] <@surkov> new - knew
  352. # [20:04] <@davidb> :)
  353. # [20:04] <@surkov> try to show that your kids :)
  354. # [20:04] <@davidb> good idea - they love that
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  356. # [20:08] <yzen> eeejay: hi
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  394. # [21:45] <@eeejay> yzen, yo!
  395. # [21:45] <yzen> eeejay: hi
  396. # [21:45] <@eeejay> yzen, i'm wondering if we are working on overlapping things, and i would like your input about utterances
  397. # [21:46] <yzen> eeejay: sure
  398. # [21:46] <@eeejay> yzen, when an accessible has a value, maybe we should speak it, and always ignore the subtree?
  399. # [21:47] <@eeejay> yzen, i think we had it like that really early on, and then removed it for one reason or another
  400. # [21:47] <yzen> eeejay: we do not utter the value at the moment is that right ?
  401. # [21:48] <@eeejay> yzen, correct
  402. # [21:50] <yzen> i think for most elements that can have a value attributes it's a good idea
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  404. # [21:51] <yzen> eeejay: but in cases like li for example, can both a value attr and the subtree be meaningful ?
  405. # [21:51] <@eeejay> yzen, an li would have a value attribute??
  406. # [21:52] <@eeejay> don't see that here
  407. # [21:52] <yzen> i m just looking at this https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Attributes and there's the list of elements that support value
  408. # [21:52] <@eeejay> i think we could simplify our utterange generators a bit, thankfully because we have tests :)
  409. # [21:53] <@eeejay> weird
  410. # [21:53] <yzen> ya :)
  411. # [21:54] <@eeejay> yzen, oh. i don't think those become accessible.value
  412. # [21:54] <@eeejay> we should test
  413. # [21:54] <@eeejay> it is just for forcing <ol> to have a different number
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  415. # [21:54] <yzen> eeejay: i think it makes sense then
  416. # [21:55] <@eeejay> yzen, yeah. just checked
  417. # [21:55] <yzen> cool
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  421. # [21:58] <@eeejay> ChanServ, what is up with that nepotism?
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The end :)