/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2013-10-10 / end
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- # Session Start: Thu Oct 10 00:00:00 2013
- # Session Ident: #accessibility
- # [00:06] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
- # [00:12] <@firebot> jamie@nvaccess.org cancelled needinfo?(jamie@nvaccess.or g) on bug 567571.
- # [00:12] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=567571 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, caret-moved events missing at the end of a wrapped line of text in Thunderbird message composition
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- # [02:51] <@eeejay> why don't we mark objects with an opacity of 0 as invisible?
- # [02:55] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 925209 filed by eitan@monotonous.org.
- # [02:55] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=925209 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Mark accessibles that have an opacity of 0 as invisible
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- # [13:52] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Assignee on bug 915558 from nobody@mozilla.org to trev.saunders@gmail.com.
- # [13:52] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Resolution on bug 915558 from --- to FIXED.
- # [13:52] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 915558 from REOPENED to RESOLVED.
- # [13:52] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 915558 from --- to mozilla27.
- # [13:52] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=915558 cri, P1, mozilla27, trev.saunders, RESO FIXED, XUL UI completely broken in Windows: Tabs, menus, etc.
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- # [15:49] <SteveF> surkov: backed out change i made to html spec on dialog focus - will let you guys work it out
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- # [15:49] <@surkov> SteveF: I see
- # [15:50] <SteveF> re you question on bug - i reverted it as you indicated you would prefer to to be worked out elsewhere
- # [15:58] <SteveF> surkov: I have spent too many cycles on it already, I have made a case for a how i think it should be, but its up to you guys as implementers as to how it goes
- # [16:00] <SteveF> surkov: FYI I have pinged jamie and mick about it, but don't see any feedback from them as being considered as AT considerations have already been dismissed
- # [16:00] <@surkov> SteveF: cool, they should answer I think
- # [16:01] <SteveF> surkov: not that it will make any difference
- # [16:02] <@surkov> well, more data and opitions is always valuable thing
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- # [16:40] <@marcoz> Yay, marriage will happen on December 30th. :)
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- # [16:47] <@marcoz> surkov: FN+Left Arrow and FN+RightArrow serve as Home and End keys on a Mac.
- # [16:48] <@surkov> marcoz: thanks!
- # [16:48] <@surkov> marcoz: yours marriage?
- # [16:48] <@marcoz> surkov: Yes!
- # [16:48] <@surkov> marcoz: cool, congrats :)
- # [16:49] <@marcoz> surkov: Thanks! :)
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- # [16:54] <@davidb> heyo!
- # [16:55] <@davidb> (forgot to open IRC)
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- # [17:00] <jimm> can someone fill me in on how accessibility works when we're running with content processes?
- # [17:02] <@davidb> surkov: ^
- # [17:02] <@davidb> jimm: do you mean on mobile or otherwise?
- # [17:02] <SteveF> marcoz: more important than marriage (congrats) you are a WAI member now (commiserations)
- # [17:03] <@davidb> SteveF: well put!
- # [17:03] <@surkov> jimm: what platform?
- # [17:04] <SteveF> now I know why marcoz has been on a diet, so he can squeeze into that silk number he has always desired to wear on the big day :-)
- # [17:04] <jimm> surkov: desktop / windows assuming we supported it
- # [17:05] <@surkov> jimm: last time I checked it was half working
- # [17:05] <@surkov> jimm: the idea is each process has own HWND that AT talks to
- # [17:05] <@surkov> the problem is AT weren't able to navigate between processes
- # [17:05] <jimm> AT?
- # [17:05] <jimm> clients?
- # [17:06] <@surkov> i.e. having an accessible from content process walk to chrome process (like get a tab object from web page)
- # [17:06] <@surkov> AT = assistive technology, softwares like screen readers and magnifiers
- # [17:06] <@surkov> so yes, clients
- # [17:06] <jimm> what if the content process doesn't have an hwnd?
- # [17:07] <jimm> on windows I don't think that will be the case since removed all native child windows
- # [17:07] <@surkov> jimm: then AT don't have a way to get an access to accessible objects
- # [17:07] <@surkov> jimm: I think we create windows on a11y layer
- # [17:07] <@surkov> sort of fake windows
- # [17:09] <jimm> I see so accessibility creates an hwnd that the ats can pick up on. and through that, the at can query the dom state of the tab.
- # [17:10] <jimm> have we considered having the accessibility library send rpc calls over to the content process to get state so that there's no need for the fake window?
- # [17:10] <jimm> or maybe caching content state that updated async from the content process?
- # [17:11] <@surkov> jimm: iirc the decision was it will be too slow
- # [17:11] <@surkov> since AT inject into process to be fast
- # [17:11] <@surkov> out of process AT tends to be much slower than in process AT
- # [17:11] <@surkov> jimm: caching is what chrome does, it will be quite different from what we do
- # [17:12] <jimm> heh.. my next question.. "any idea how chrome handles this?"
- # [17:12] <@surkov> btw, ATK (linux) does a caching but we get that for free from them
- # [17:12] <@surkov> yeah, it just caches :)
- # [17:13] <jimm> ok thanks for the info. I think there's a good chance metrofx will move to content processes next year, which is why I was curious.
- # [17:13] <@surkov> jimm: current a11y architecture is we get much of info on demand, so if we were asked for boundaries then we calculate it
- # [17:13] <@surkov> caching would mean we should build complete a11y tree
- # [17:14] <@surkov> I see
- # [17:14] <@surkov> so in summary, windows hack was faster solution for our architecture
- # [17:14] <@surkov> and painless
- # [17:15] <jimm> surkov: the ATs don't have issues with multiple processes with shared hwnds?
- # [17:15] <jimm> they can navigate across processes without issue?
- # [17:15] <@surkov> what do you mean by shared?
- # [17:15] <@surkov> and AT somehow worked with Firefox
- # [17:15] <jimm> well, say an AT loaded into the chrome process asks for the tab
- # [17:15] <@surkov> there was some problems
- # [17:16] <jimm> it then has to navigate over to another process
- # [17:16] <jimm> (the content process with the fake hwnd)
- # [17:16] <@surkov> I see, not all of them
- # [17:16] <jimm> I see so that would break some ATs and they would have to update their code
- # [17:16] <@surkov> but iirc when we talked to AT vendors about fake window solution they said it should be working
- # [17:17] <jimm> ok
- # [17:17] <@surkov> yep, likely
- # [17:19] <@davidb> FYI i believe chrome caches and IE does the HWND thing.
- # [17:20] <@davidb> (HWND is an option not originally considered here http://mindforks.blogspot.ca/2010/11/asynchronous-accessibility.html)
- # [17:21] <@davidb> (but comes up in the comments)
- # [17:21] <jimm> looks like UIA works the same way, they request a UiaRootObjectId from the WM_GETOBJECT event.
- # [17:22] <jimm> davidb: if that works for ie in metro, should work us there as well.
- # [17:22] <@davidb> yeah
- # [17:24] <jimm> I like your idea of async accessibility
- # [17:24] <jimm> I guess ms isn't planning anything like that though for windows. they seem committed to UIA.
- # [17:25] <@davidb> yeah dominic is right (in comments) getting the whole ecosystem moved to async is hard
- # [17:25] <@davidb> and experimental
- # [17:27] <jimm> sounds like we solved the ime problem via caching
- # [17:28] <jimm> ah, awesome, that's in TabParent/TabChild
- # [17:31] <jimm> so if we want to isolate accessibility on a non-gecko / windows input thread, sounds like we would only have to do that for the chrome process.
- # [17:31] <jimm> since that's the only process that needs to deal directly with windows input.
- # [17:31] <jimm> content processes get dom events passed over via ipc.
- # [17:39] <@davidb> oh!
- # [17:40] <@davidb> jimm: so the DOM is already cached?
- # [17:41] <jimm> hmm?
- # [17:42] <jimm> I was musing about what we'd like to do in bug 741750
- # [17:42] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=741750 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Add support for non-gecko thread accessibility calls to the accessibility library
- # [17:42] <jimm> essentially we want to separate the windows input thread from the gecko thread.
- # [17:43] <@davidb> ok
- # [17:44] <jimm> the reason is we want to separate async-pan-zoom input processing from the gecko thread.
- # [17:44] <@davidb> understandable
- # [17:44] <jimm> currently the apz handles events on the gecko thread, which can jank.
- # [17:46] <@davidb> yes i have experience this
- # [17:48] <jimm> open question is should we skip worrying about accessibility support for now and get the thread separation done, or should we block on accessibility being able to handle the thread separation.
- # [17:48] <@davidb> jimm: will it be pref-able?
- # [17:49] <@davidb> config
- # [17:49] <@davidb> we can't break people
- # [17:49] <@marcoz> SteveF: davidb: Heh thanks!
- # [17:49] <jimm> the thread separation? probably not since winrt widget will have to go through some pretty big changes.
- # [17:50] <@davidb> jimm: have you chatted with bsmith?
- # [17:50] <jimm> davidb: well we don't support accessibility yet in metrofx, so we're not breaking anybody.
- # [17:50] <@marcoz> SteveF: And what my wedding is concerned: It will be a rather unusual wedding, in that nobody is allowed to wear a tie and suit. Instead, we want it to be an 80's wedding: Jeans and sneakers or the like. :)
- # [17:50] <@davidb> it sounded like e10s would be config-able for a bit
- # [17:50] <jimm> davidb: no
- # [17:50] <jimm> re bsmith
- # [17:50] <@davidb> jimm: ok is this work in addition to the e10s work?
- # [17:51] <@davidb> or in lieu of? or?
- # [17:51] <jimm> davidb: probably concurrent, the two don't directly depend on each other.
- # [17:51] <@davidb> ok
- # [17:51] <@davidb> it is worth connecting with that team IMO
- # [17:51] <@davidb> just in case
- # [17:51] <jimm> which team is this?
- # [17:52] <@davidb> e10s
- # [17:52] <jimm> ah ok
- # [17:52] <@davidb> bsmith, evilpies, vlad
- # [17:52] <jimm> yeah we'll be chatting with them I'm sure once we get closer to switching.
- # [17:52] <@davidb> ok
- # [17:52] <@davidb> back after lunch
- # [17:52] <jimm> we have to get version 1.0 out the door first. :)
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- # [19:03] <@eeejay> yzen, ping
- # [19:04] * @davidb is back
- # [19:04] <@eeejay> davidb, welcome
- # [19:04] <@davidb> gracias
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- # [19:13] <@davidb> Gijs: is anyone keeping an eye on australis keyboard operability?
- # [19:13] <@davidb> also, hi
- # [19:13] * @davidb hunts water
- # [19:14] <Gijs> davidb: it shouldn't really be affected, essentially, in the sense that we're not removing the 'normal' menubar
- # [19:14] <Gijs> davidb: we've removed the app menu, which was never keyboard-accessible
- # [19:14] <Gijs> davidb: I've made the new menu panel "a little" accessible, meaning there's a keyboard shortcut for it and you can tab to it, but it'd need more work to have it be more fully featured.
- # [19:15] <Gijs> davidb: several people argue that it's too hard to make it properly keyboard accessible, because of the variety of items that can appear in it.
- # [19:15] <Gijs> davidb: so that discussion isn't really decided yet
- # [19:16] <Gijs> davidb: regarding customizability of buttons etc., as before with the customize panel, that's not keyboard accessible (nor is there a keyboard equivalent), and I don't think we have plans for that, either. Our plates are pretty full just with the current feature set.
- # [19:16] <Gijs> davidb: does that help? :)
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- # [19:19] * @davidb is back
- # [19:19] <@davidb> right, i'm less concerned with drag and drop stuff
- # [19:20] <@davidb> Gijs: i'll just say that i think eventually we should get rid of the 'normal' menubar
- # [19:20] <@davidb> but I haven't consulted the team on that
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- # [19:20] <@davidb> this came up at the summit
- # [19:20] <@davidb> from some latam mozillians
- # [19:20] <Gijs> davidb: yeah, I think folks are aiming towards doing that. I don't think it'll happen when we land/ship Australis
- # [19:20] <Gijs> davidb: I'll see what I can do regarding menupanel keyboard access
- # [19:21] <Gijs> I agree it's important
- # [19:21] <@davidb> right i daren't raise the issue formally right now ;)
- # [19:21] <Gijs> :)
- # [19:21] <@davidb> ship it
- # [19:21] <Gijs> We can't even currently figure out how we're dealing with keyboard shortcuts, it seems. :s
- # [19:21] <@davidb> Gijs: thanks… if it could get on your Q4 radar if necessary/timely than please do
- # [19:21] <@davidb> Q4/Q1
- # [19:22] <Gijs> I don't have a personal Q4 radar, but it's in our P2 buglist, so a decision/work will be done 'soon' regardless :)
- # [19:22] <@davidb> when will it ship?
- # [19:22] <Gijs> when it's ready
- # [19:22] <@davidb> ok
- # [19:22] <Gijs> :X
- # [19:22] <@davidb> 2017
- # [19:22] <@davidb> I kid
- # [19:22] <Gijs> We need to sort out some tab animation perf stuff
- # [19:22] <Gijs> then we'll land on m-c
- # [19:22] * @davidb nods
- # [19:22] <Gijs> then we'll need to fix the inevitable deluge of "omg you broke this thing that you totally didn't think about"
- # [19:22] <@davidb> not to mention OMGCHANGE
- # [19:22] <Gijs> indeed
- # [19:23] <Gijs> (although considering baking time, I'd like to think we've thought about a lot)
- # [19:23] <Gijs> (a guy can dream, right?)
- # [19:23] <@davidb> famous last words
- # [19:23] <Gijs> exactly
- # [19:23] <Gijs> davidb: we actually have a meeting in ~35 minutes
- # [19:23] <Gijs> 11am pacific
- # [19:23] <Gijs> if you wanna come hang out, feel invited
- # [19:23] <Gijs> (fx vidyo room)
- # [19:23] <@davidb> thanks… it is too soon
- # [19:23] <@davidb> i want you guys to ship
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- # [19:24] <@davidb> since we have the backup menu
- # [19:24] <@davidb> it is ok
- # [19:24] <Gijs> coolbeans
- # [19:24] <Gijs> we want us to ship too
- # [19:24] <Gijs> so let's hope we get that sorted soon
- # [19:24] <@davidb> i sit near mconley ;)
- # [19:24] * Gijs thinks shipping it was a Q2 goal
- # [19:24] <Gijs> that, umm, didn't quite work out
- # [19:25] <Gijs> We're on the other 90% now
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- # [19:26] <@davidb> Gijs: sometime I'll ask you if you think XUL should go away but I'm not asking you now.
- # [19:26] <Gijs> I can answer it now
- # [19:26] <Gijs> yes
- # [19:26] <@eeejay> Gijs, awesome
- # [19:26] <Gijs> I think it should
- # [19:26] <Gijs> eventually
- # [19:26] <@davidb> lol
- # [19:27] <Gijs> eeejay: what is? :)
- # [19:27] <Gijs> davidb: but it can't just yet... so we're stuck with it for now.
- # [19:27] <@eeejay> Gijs, all of it. australis a11y, and xul going away
- # [19:27] <Gijs> I mean, it's basically not getting nearly the attention the web platform is getting
- # [19:27] <Gijs> and rightly so
- # [19:27] <Gijs> so if we can move to HTML for our UI, I'm all in favour
- # [19:27] <Gijs> but it's not a trivial thing
- # [19:27] <@davidb> addons?
- # [19:28] <Gijs> what about them? :)
- # [19:28] <@davidb> are they screwed if we de-xulify?
- # [19:28] <Gijs> they're not, but some things will have to change
- # [19:28] <Gijs> SDK add-ons definitely aren't screwed
- # [19:29] <@davidb> that's good
- # [19:29] <Gijs> generally... stuff that uses XUL would need to migrate
- # [19:29] <Gijs> but that is life, to a certain extent.
- # [19:29] <@davidb> sure
- # [19:29] <Gijs> Heck, we could even write *shudder* XSLT to transform provided XUL into equivalent HTML.
- # [19:29] <Gijs> as a temp fallback for add-on
- # [19:29] <Gijs> *add-on provided XUL
- # [19:30] <Gijs> but that's not an idea that's attractive to me, tbh
- # [19:30] <@davidb> does firebug use XUL for UI?
- # [19:30] <Gijs> it did when I last touched it
- # [19:30] <@davidb> figured
- # [19:30] <Gijs> you know, 7 years ago
- # [19:30] <@davidb> ha
- # [19:30] <@davidb> time flies
- # [19:30] <Gijs> who knows what they do now
- # [19:30] <Gijs> yeah
- # [19:30] * Gijs isn't keen to go near it again
- # [19:30] <Gijs> devtools are awesome
- # [19:30] * @davidb nods
- # [19:30] <Gijs> and they use xul, actually
- # [19:30] <Gijs> (to an extent)
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- # [20:03] <@surkov> where's wally http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevneedham/10094346756/lightbox/
- # [20:03] <@davidb> i can see us
- # [20:04] <@surkov> sure, you new where we were
- # [20:04] <@surkov> new - knew
- # [20:04] <@davidb> :)
- # [20:04] <@surkov> try to show that your kids :)
- # [20:04] <@davidb> good idea - they love that
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- # [20:08] <yzen> eeejay: hi
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- # [21:45] <@eeejay> yzen, yo!
- # [21:45] <yzen> eeejay: hi
- # [21:45] <@eeejay> yzen, i'm wondering if we are working on overlapping things, and i would like your input about utterances
- # [21:46] <yzen> eeejay: sure
- # [21:46] <@eeejay> yzen, when an accessible has a value, maybe we should speak it, and always ignore the subtree?
- # [21:47] <@eeejay> yzen, i think we had it like that really early on, and then removed it for one reason or another
- # [21:47] <yzen> eeejay: we do not utter the value at the moment is that right ?
- # [21:48] <@eeejay> yzen, correct
- # [21:50] <yzen> i think for most elements that can have a value attributes it's a good idea
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- # [21:51] <yzen> eeejay: but in cases like li for example, can both a value attr and the subtree be meaningful ?
- # [21:51] <@eeejay> yzen, an li would have a value attribute??
- # [21:52] <@eeejay> don't see that here
- # [21:52] <yzen> i m just looking at this https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Attributes and there's the list of elements that support value
- # [21:52] <@eeejay> i think we could simplify our utterange generators a bit, thankfully because we have tests :)
- # [21:53] <@eeejay> weird
- # [21:53] <yzen> ya :)
- # [21:54] <@eeejay> yzen, oh. i don't think those become accessible.value
- # [21:54] <@eeejay> we should test
- # [21:54] <@eeejay> it is just for forcing <ol> to have a different number
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- # [21:54] <yzen> eeejay: i think it makes sense then
- # [21:55] <@eeejay> yzen, yeah. just checked
- # [21:55] <yzen> cool
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- # [21:58] <@eeejay> ChanServ, what is up with that nepotism?
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- # Session Close: Fri Oct 11 00:00:01 2013
The end :)