/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2013-12-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Dec 03 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  61. # [11:52] <SteveF> marcoz: trying to test firefox/talkback on android 4.4 finding support flaky, is that to be expected?
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  71. # [14:29] <@marcoz> Hi all!
  72. # [14:29] <@marcoz> SteveF: Hi! For the combination Talkback + Firefox 25 for Android, you can enter the same test results as for NVDA + Firefox 25 for Android. Tests 5 and 6 fail, all others pass.
  73. # [14:30] <@marcoz> Umm, NVDA + Firefox 25 for Windows of course.
  74. # [14:30] <icaaq> Hi marcoz! enjoying december so far?
  75. # [14:30] <@marcoz> icaaq: Yup I am! :) You?
  76. # [14:32] <icaaq> marcoz: yes, I was out mountainbiking at lunch today! 6°C here :s
  77. # [14:32] <SteveF> marcoz: thanks
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  84. # [14:44] <icaaq> SteveF marcoz: what do you think about extending the spec regardning role="menu" and role="menubar" just add that if it's a normal navigation these roles shouldn't be used.
  85. # [14:44] <icaaq> or am i wrong?
  86. # [14:45] <icaaq> swedish radio has them implemented now as well http://sverigesradio.se/
  87. # [14:45] <SteveF> icaaq: this is relevant http://terrillthompson.com/blog/474
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  89. # [14:46] * icaaq reads
  90. # [14:47] <SteveF> icaaq: when menus are for navigation on a web site then menu etc should not be used (i think), when menus are in a web app such as gmail (for example) then they should be
  91. # [14:48] <icaaq> SteveF: exactly, that's something that I and marcoz has been talking about a few times as well.
  92. # [14:49] <icaaq> still developers are implementing them.
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  95. # [14:52] <SteveF> icaaq sounds like I should add something to http://rawgithub.com/w3c/aria-in-html/master/index.html on the subject
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  97. # [14:54] <icaaq> SteveF: Yes, that might be a good idea :)
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  99. # [14:59] <SteveF> icaaq: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23970
  100. # [15:03] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Assignee on bug 935375 from nobody@mozilla.org to surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  101. # [15:03] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 935375 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
  102. # [15:03] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=935375 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, Word offsets broken if the next word is an embedded object
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  104. # [15:16] <@marcoz> icaaq: SteveF: If developers use menu or menubar, they *must* implement an according keyboard navigation in JS. I thought the spec was clear on that, or at least it was the last time I read up on the roles on w3.org. Many web developers obviously don't know what they're doing. :(
  105. # [15:17] <@marcoz> I only wonder where they get the roles knowldge, but then neglect to read the rest of a chapter that tells them that an according keyboard navigation must be implemented as well.
  106. # [15:18] <SteveF> marcoz: right, some devs don't realize that simply adding roles is not enough
  107. # [15:18] <@marcoz> Oh and why does HTML5 not have a native widget for real menus yet? That way we could avoid all this mess. Sigh.
  108. # [15:19] <@marcoz> SteveF: Part of the problem is: There are too many of them who do it this way. :(
  109. # [15:19] <@marcoz> No wonder web accessibility appears broken to so many people using assistive technologies.
  110. # [15:20] <icaaq> marcoz: but even if they implement an according keyboard navigation in JS I think it's wrong. menu/menubar/menuitems should be used for "applications". not for navigation :)
  111. # [15:20] <@marcoz> icaaq: I totally agree!
  112. # [15:22] <@marcoz> icaaq: I also think that http://www.freedomscientific.com sets a wrong example in this regard.
  113. # [15:22] <@marcoz> Problem is: Many web developers still use expensive JAWS for testing, and think the FS website will do the right thing just because they're an AT company.
  114. # [15:23] <SteveF> icaaq: yes
  115. # [15:24] <icaaq> my god, that's a whole lot of markup...
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  117. # [15:25] <@marcoz> Hi yzen!
  118. # [15:25] <yzen> marcoz: hi
  119. # [15:26] <yzen> marcoz: I'm super close to the phone app being done, only a couple of styling fixes and making sure tests are in a good shape
  120. # [15:26] <yzen> marcoz: still need to get a working sim card somewhere to test the actual call a11y :)
  121. # [15:26] <@marcoz> yzen: Awesome!
  122. # [15:26] <@marcoz> Really great stuff!
  123. # [15:27] <@marcoz> yzen: davidb|afk or others in the Moz TO office should be able to tell you which carriers are supported in Canada ATM.
  124. # [15:28] <@marcoz> Don't know if Mozilla even has a few SIM cards in a drawer somewhere you could use for that test. You needn't test that feature calling me in Germany, after all. ;-)
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  128. # [15:29] <yzen> marcoz: haha yes hopefully, the carrier i have does not work with the phone + the sim is a nano-sim where inari takes regular one
  129. # [15:30] <yzen> marcoz: otherwise i ll just get a prepaid one
  130. # [15:31] <@davidb> heyo!
  131. # [15:32] <yzen> davidb: hi
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  133. # [15:32] <@davidb> hi yzen
  134. # [15:35] <@marcoz> Hi davidb!
  135. # [15:36] <@marcoz> yzen: Yes, all Firefox OS phones I've seen so far take regular SIM cards. Not even the now widely used micro SIM works without an adapter.
  136. # [16:03] <yzen> ya
  137. # [16:29] <@davidb> I just read Chris Hofstader's post to eyes-free.
  138. # [16:29] <@davidb> He's right about the quagmire unfortunately.
  139. # [16:29] <@davidb> I lost sleep over this.
  140. # [16:30] <@marcoz> davidb: quagmire?
  141. # [16:31] <@davidb> marcoz: i don't want to explain his use out of context
  142. # [16:32] <@davidb> the subject of the email is something about an apology to janina
  143. # [16:32] <@davidb> but the email body is more than that
  144. # [16:35] <@marcoz> Oh, I must admit I wasn't following that firehose that is the Eyes-Free list lately.
  145. # [16:36] <@marcoz> davidb: ^
  146. # [16:36] <@davidb> i cherry pick
  147. # [16:36] <Gijs> davidb: so let's say I'm having issues with focus and copy/paste and the new menu panel
  148. # [16:36] <@davidb> oh and lost->lose above
  149. # [16:36] <Gijs> davidb: who should I talk to about that?
  150. # [16:37] <@davidb> Gijs: Enn and maybe us
  151. # [16:37] <Gijs> OK.
  152. # [16:37] <@marcoz> davidb: Definitely easier to do by sight than by speech or braille. ;-) (this is probably one thing assistive technologies will never really be able to do, skim read in a fashin that is equal to letting your gaze swipe over a screen full of information diagonally.)
  153. # [16:37] <@davidb> yeah
  154. # [16:37] <@davidb> well never say never
  155. # [16:38] <Gijs> (basically, at some point I made all the toolbar buttons in the menu panel have tabindex="0" so you could keyboard-navigate, but that ends up breaking copy/paste because if you click it focuses the button and then the copy/paste code gets confused about where to copy/paste and the whole thing goes to smithereens)
  156. # [16:38] <@marcoz> Nope, but all concepts I've seen so far still fall short. Quite so, in fact.
  157. # [16:38] <Gijs> (I don't understand why this problem doesn't happen with, say, menuitems, which presumably are also focusable...)
  158. # [16:39] <@davidb> Gijs: we should follow http://access.aol.com/dhtml-style-guide-working-group/#menu
  159. # [16:39] <@davidb> but wait
  160. # [16:39] <@davidb> you are talking about our new fancy menu thing right?
  161. # [16:39] <Gijs> yeah
  162. # [16:39] <@davidb> which is a hybrid
  163. # [16:39] <Gijs> right, it's confusing
  164. # [16:40] <@davidb> it has elements of http://access.aol.com/dhtml-style-guide-working-group/#grid
  165. # [16:40] <Gijs> we could just give up now, but that'd also be kind of sad
  166. # [16:40] <@davidb> or a list
  167. # [16:40] <Gijs> right
  168. # [16:40] <Gijs> because you can have items which are text field and then what do you want the arrow keys to do
  169. # [16:40] <Gijs> but hey, I'm already struggling with getting <tab> to work appropriately.
  170. # [16:40] <Gijs> so baby steps, right
  171. # [16:40] <@davidb> right
  172. # [16:41] <@davidb> worry about copy paste last i'd say
  173. # [16:41] <Gijs> ehm
  174. # [16:41] <Gijs> the problem is that we're breaking it for mouse users right now :)
  175. # [16:41] <@davidb> navigating and operating is priority one
  176. # [16:41] <Gijs> maybe just for everyone
  177. # [16:41] <@davidb> oh?
  178. # [16:41] <Gijs> well, quite.
  179. # [16:41] <Gijs> So the thing is, if you have a toolbarbutton and it has tabindex="0", and you click it, it gets focus
  180. # [16:41] <SteveF> marcoz: updated test with firefox/android results http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/hidden2013.html
  181. # [16:42] <Gijs> it having focus confounds our copy/paste code
  182. # [16:42] <Gijs> so copy/paste breaks
  183. # [16:42] <Gijs> so you try to click the "copy" button
  184. # [16:42] <Gijs> it gets focus
  185. # [16:42] <Gijs> we don't know where the selection is
  186. # [16:42] <Gijs> we don't copy anything
  187. # [16:42] <Gijs> that's not good.
  188. # [16:42] <Gijs> :)
  189. # [16:42] <Gijs> previously, toolbarbuttons couldn't have focus
  190. # [16:42] <@davidb> who owns copy/paste code?
  191. # [16:42] <@marcoz> SteveF: Thanks! :)
  192. # [16:42] <Gijs> haha :)
  193. # [16:42] <@davidb> heh is it you?
  194. # [16:43] * Gijs suspects the answer is 'nobody' but will ask in #developers
  195. # [16:43] <Gijs> hell no
  196. # [16:43] * @davidb nods
  197. # [16:43] <@davidb> Gijs: thanks for working on this - it is finicky but important
  198. # [16:50] <@davidb> Gijs: will the toolmenuthinger be in the [F6] key rotation or have a special shortcut?
  199. # [16:51] <Gijs> it has a special shortcut already, ctrl+M
  200. # [16:51] <Gijs> cmd+shift+M on mac
  201. # [16:51] <@davidb> OH!
  202. # [16:51] <@davidb> cool
  203. # [16:52] <Gijs> I don't know about F6 because I don't know how to implement that and I've been too busy with other stuff to find out
  204. # [16:52] <@davidb> Busy is best
  205. # [16:53] <Gijs> myeah, but to anyone else I would advise not trying to move country in the middle of landing a huge project on Nightly
  206. # [16:54] <@davidb> that sounds like a character building experience
  207. # [16:58] <tbsaunde> davidb: heya
  208. # [16:59] <@davidb> tbsaunde: hi!
  209. # [16:59] <@davidb> tbsaunde: what's your plan today?
  210. # [16:59] <@davidb> are you in? (i'd check buy i'm in a phone room)
  211. # [17:00] <tbsaunde> davidb: yeah, at my desk
  212. # [17:00] <tbsaunde> should be there all day
  213. # [17:00] <@davidb> cool - i'll swing by later - maybe we can grab lunch
  214. # [17:01] <tbsaunde> sure
  215. # [17:04] <SteveF> surkov: not biting on your comment
  216. # [17:05] <@surkov> SteveF: sorry, that means? :)
  217. # [17:06] <SteveF> surkov: not going into politics of specs
  218. # [17:06] <@surkov> SteveF: are you about WHATWG comment?
  219. # [17:06] <@marcoz> SteveF: Isn't spec *always* about politics?
  220. # [17:06] <@marcoz> Oh wait, did I just really write that? ;-)
  221. # [17:07] <SteveF> surkov: yeah
  222. # [17:07] <@surkov> SteveF: ok, mostly I was curious if there were any attempts to bring it there
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  224. # [17:08] <SteveF> surkov: no, the discussion occurs where the implementers are
  225. # [17:08] <@surkov> ok
  226. # [17:08] <SteveF> surkov: and spec writers
  227. # [17:11] <SteveF> surkov: will let james/rich respond on aria implementation stuff
  228. # [17:11] <@surkov> ok
  229. # [17:18] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Assignee on bug 945308 from nobody@mozilla.org to surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  230. # [17:19] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 945308 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
  231. # [17:19] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945308 cri, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, crash in mozilla::a11y::HyperTextAccessible::GetBoundsInFrame(nsIFrame*, unsigned int, unsigned int)
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  238. # [17:56] <SteveF> surkov: there you go question answered https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945194#c15 :-) now we can continue with the real work of finding technical consensus on the issue...
  239. # [17:56] <@firebot> Bug 945194 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Add accessibles that have aria-hidden="false" to the tree even if HTML5 hidden or CSS hidden or disp
  240. # [18:03] <tbsaunde> davidb: fud?
  241. # [18:03] <@davidb> ssoon
  242. # [18:07] <@davidb> tbsaunde: omw
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  263. # [21:39] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 945907 filed by dbolter@mozilla.com.
  264. # [21:39] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945907 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Support atk/at-spi ROLE_LANDMARK.
  265. # [21:46] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 945915 filed by dbolter@mozilla.com.
  266. # [21:47] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945915 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Expose atk/at-spi STATE_CHECKABLE.
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  284. # [23:47] <erkan^> eeejay, have very blind people a MacBook Pro?
  285. # [23:47] <erkan^> or Mac OSX
  286. # [23:58] * icaaq is now known as icaaq|sleeps
  287. # Session Close: Wed Dec 04 00:00:00 2013

The end :)