/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2014-02-14 / end
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- # Session Start: Fri Feb 14 00:00:00 2014
- # Session Ident: #accessibility
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- # [00:38] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 972630 filed by eitan@monotonous.org.
- # [00:38] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=972630 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] Add flag to output generator to ignore explicit names
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- # Session Ident: #accessibility
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- # [06:46] * Topic is 'build the web for everyone | http://is.gd/yqDl6M'
- # [06:46] * Set by davidb on Mon Jan 06 15:34:52
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- # [07:51] * Topic is 'build the web for everyone | http://is.gd/yqDl6M'
- # [07:51] * Set by davidb on Mon Jan 06 15:34:52
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- # [14:51] <@MarcoZ> Morning yzen !
- # [14:51] <@MarcoZ> Magnificent job with bug 969553!
- # [14:51] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=969553 nor, --, ---, yzenevich, NEW, Update shared tabs styling and markup to be screen reader accessible.
- # [14:53] <@yzen> MarcoZ heh :) good to see a bunch of f+
- # [14:54] <@yzen> will clean it up, wait for the rest of the feedback and then do the r?
- # [15:01] <@MarcoZ> yeah, and I think we don't need to be shy to land it once it got review.
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- # [15:08] <@firebot> matspal@gmail.com changed the Resolution on bug 972501 from --- to INVALID.
- # [15:08] <@firebot> matspal@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 972501 from NEW to RESOLVED.
- # [15:08] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=972501 nor, --, ---, nobody, RESO INVALID, [e10s] In etherpad editor, ⌘B shortcut opens Bookmarks sidebar instead of bolding text
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- # [15:32] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 972845 filed by jdiggs@igalia.com.
- # [15:35] <@MarcoZ> yzen: yeah, and I think we don't need to be shy to land it once it got review.
- # [15:35] <@MarcoZ> That was again re bug 969553.
- # [15:35] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=969553 nor, --, ---, yzenevich, NEW, Update shared tabs styling and markup to be screen reader accessible.
- # [15:35] <@yzen> :)
- # [15:35] * @MarcoZ is having tremendous fun advising the author of TinyMCE WYSIWYG editor on how to best implement accessibility.
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- # [15:40] <@davidb> heyo!
- # [15:43] <@MarcoZ> Heyo davidb !
- # [15:43] <@davidb> hi hi
- # [15:43] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Saw your meeting cnacellations. Is Canada having a holiday on Monday as well?
- # [15:43] <@davidb> yeah
- # [15:44] <@MarcoZ> Oh, so it will be a very quiet day for me. ;)
- # [15:45] <@davidb> good time for creative work
- # [15:45] <@davidb> hacking, writing
- # [15:45] * @davidb hunts coffee
- # [15:47] <@tbsaunde> monday is a holiday in ca? /me didn't know that
- # [15:48] <@yzen> tbsaunde family day, yeah
- # [15:50] <@davidb> tbsaunde: i just saw a pic of you hitting a bullseye with an ax
- # [15:50] <@davidb> should i be worried?
- # [15:54] <@yzen> surkov here for example https://github.com/yzen/gaia/blob/969553/apps/browser/index.html#L85
- # [15:54] <@yzen> https://github.com/yzen/gaia/blob/969553/apps/browser/index.html#L90 etc
- # [15:56] <@surkov> yzen: thanks, I didn't notice it
- # [15:56] <@tbsaunde> davidb: should I be angry at you? ;)
- # [15:56] <@davidb> tbsaunde: thankfully not
- # [15:59] <@MarcoZ> So, do you guys also have this lot of snow in Toronto ATM, or is this restricted to the U.S.? We hear about lots of snow coming down over there. And we have spring-like temperatures and air, around 12 degrees C today.
- # [16:00] <@MarcoZ> davidb yzen surkov :)
- # [16:00] <@yzen> MarcoZ didn't touch us and a balmy -4
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- # [16:01] <@MarcoZ> yzen: That isn't too bad. :)
- # [16:01] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Yeah I am thinking to write another blog post, maybe something ARIA again, but not sure yet.
- # [16:01] <@tbsaunde> we haven't gotten much snow at all :(
- # [16:02] <@davidb> tbsaunde is correct
- # [16:02] <@MarcoZ> tbsaunde: Sorry to hear! But we're in the same boat over here.
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- # [16:02] <@yzen> no not at all, MarcoZ
- # [16:02] <@davidb> MarcoZ: aria-hidden? *puke*
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- # [16:02] <@davidb> MarcoZ: i am going to give a slightly different opinion on joanie's bug
- # [16:02] <@MarcoZ> davidb: I already covered that some time last year. ;) And you're right, *puke*
- # [16:03] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Feel free!
- # [16:05] * @MarcoZ should make it a point to always, I mean *always* shut up about aria-hidden from now on.
- # [16:05] * @tbsaunde just wants to call it a dup
- # [16:18] <@davidb> for aria-hidden bugs we should put aria-hidden on the body tag
- # [16:19] <@MarcoZ> Heh
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- # [16:20] <@davidb> (illustrates the danger really)
- # [16:21] <@MarcoZ> OK, then prune the tree....
- # [16:21] * @MarcoZ gives in and shuts up.
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- # [16:26] <@davidb> for the record my opinion on bugs is always as a peer
- # [16:27] <@davidb> MarcoZ: is there a way to file bugs on lucifox?
- # [16:29] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Not that I know of. That's why I sent my feedback to Rich directly.
- # [16:30] <@davidb> yeah
- # [16:31] <@MarcoZ> davidb: And re aria-hidden...There are those battles you just can't win. And even though we use it in GAIA now, I am still not entirely convinced this could not also be done without aria-hidden. But I give in, declare defeat on this one and will support any steps take by my peers fro now on.
- # [16:31] <@MarcoZ> s/take/taken/
- # [16:32] <@davidb> MarcoZ: i'm with you on that, i just sort of gave in earlier.
- # [16:33] <@davidb> there is just too much confusion and this is the right way forward i think
- # [16:34] * @MarcoZ nods.
- # [16:35] <@MarcoZ> OK, put it in, surkov or whoever does it. The next ESR will probably be 31 or 32 or so, so we should have it by then so even enterprise users will be on a fairly recent standards impl then.
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- # [16:36] <@surkov> MarcoZ: have what?
- # [16:36] <@MarcoZ> surkov: aria-hidden.
- # [16:36] <@surkov> MarcoZ: why we are in hurry?
- # [16:38] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Firefox 31 will probably be the next extended support release or so. 10, 17 and 24 were those as well. Those are the ones for enterprise customers who do not upgrade Firefox every six weeks.
- # [16:39] <@surkov> MarcoZ: ok but how this is related with aria-hidden?
- # [16:39] <@MarcoZ> We're now in the 30 cycle, so should have it in for this or latest the 31 cycle so enterprise customers also get this new implementation. You know, making a clear cut at a time where it has the most impact.
- # [16:39] <@davidb> sounds right
- # [16:40] <@MarcoZ> surkov: I basically agreed that we should change our aria-hidden implementation to comply with what IE and Safari and Chrome are doing, e. g. prune the tree.
- # [16:40] <@surkov> MarcoZ: ok, why is that becoming a priority for us?
- # [16:41] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Since that is a clear difference from what we were doing before, I would like to see this in soon so even Enterprise-level customers can work with a Firefox version that has this changed implementation so they don't need to worry about implementation differences too much.
- # [16:41] <@surkov> MarcoZ: btw, did anybody tested IE, Safari and Chrome implementation?
- # [16:41] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Yup they all prune the tree at aria-hidden="true".
- # [16:42] <@surkov> MarcoZ: ok, what happens when you focus aria-hidden="true" button?
- # [16:43] <@surkov> MarcoZ: another question: if focus goes into aria-hidden editable area then do IE updates caret position?
- # [16:44] <@surkov> ( caret position update in Firefox is related to accessbile tree)
- # [16:44] <@davidb> how does accessfu and nvda solve this?
- # [16:45] <@davidb> and is this an author-error case?
- # [16:48] <@MarcoZ> surkov: IE simply skips over an aria-hddein="true" button element.
- # [16:48] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Focus lands on the document instead.
- # [16:49] <@surkov> MarcoZ: that's interesting, it'd be good to know if focus visually also goes to document
- # [16:50] <@surkov> somebody needs to check
- # [16:50] <@surkov> MarcoZ: did you tab to it?
- # [16:50] <@surkov> MarcoZ: is behaviour consistent between nvda, jaws, we etc?
- # [16:50] <@surkov> davidb: I don't think accessFu handles that
- # [16:51] <@davidb> surkov: i think webkit walks the parent chain until it can put focus somewhere
- # [16:51] <@davidb> as per dominic in the older bug
- # [16:51] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Yes I tabbed to it.
- # [16:52] <@MarcoZ> surkov: And if I have an aria-hidden textarea, it is not rendered to the virtual buffer, but if I tab to it, it is treated like an ordinary multiline text field, cursor tracking and all.
- # [16:52] <@surkov> aha
- # [16:53] <@surkov> MarcoZ: it sounds like there's a bunch of undocumented features
- # [16:54] <@MarcoZ> surkov: I totally agree, and my giving in is in no way a statement that I like aria-hidden now more than I did a year ago. :) It's just that everybody else is pruning the tree, and we're being asked time and time again to do the same, for consistency. So I have finally declared this battle lost for me.
- # [16:54] <@davidb> (ditto)
- # [16:54] <@davidb> i don't think standing ground here is helpful
- # [16:55] <@MarcoZ> surkov: So for the case of browser interobability, we should do the same, and because Firefox 31 will be another enterprise support release, we should do it in either 30 or 31 for exactly the reasons I stated above.
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- # [16:55] <@MarcoZ> And we should put focus on the highest level focusable element. If an author really puts aria-hidden on a button and then notices that tab no longer focuses it, we can throw it in their faces and say "don't use aria-hidden for that, then".
- # [16:56] <@surkov> MarcoZ: I'd be happy if all these cases were captured by the spec
- # [16:56] <@MarcoZ> surkov: But I agree we should check visually what IE does, I obviously cannot do that.
- # [16:57] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Yes I'd love for all of that to be in the spec, too. It isn't, however, and it only says "prune the tree". All others do it.
- # [16:57] <@surkov> MarcoZ: you said IE doesn't do that for text areas, no?
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- # [16:58] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Well, it isn't in the virtual buffer. it then appears somewhere because I tab to it, but once I tab away, NVDA gets confused, doesn't turn off its focus mode again. So whatever IE does somehow works half-baked.
- # [16:58] <@davidb> surkov: I think Dominic is the right one to hash out the details with. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=780888#c26
- # [16:58] <@firebot> Bug 780888 nor, --, ---, nobody, RESO WONTFIX, Actually prune the aria-hidden tree
- # [16:58] <@davidb> Since I think he has thought about it a lot.
- # [16:58] <@davidb> And Trevor, since he will be r-ing
- # [16:58] <@davidb> r minusing :)
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- # [16:59] <@MarcoZ> surkov: But IE is a different story than Chrome alltogether in many ways, because they always supply only a subset of accessibles. Or at least they do in MSAA. Not sure how complete their tree is for UIA.
- # [16:59] <@surkov> anyway, I agree that browser interobability is good but I don't feel myself right to jump into it
- # [16:59] <@MarcoZ> surkov: So yeah, as davidb says, work the details out with Dominic so we are at least consistent there. And it will probably cover Safari, too.
- # [17:00] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Believe me, I'm not happy with it, either. I just wanna put this thing to rest somehow.
- # [17:00] <@davidb> yeah it seems excessively cruel to work on canvas and aria-hidden at the same time
- # [17:00] <@MarcoZ> And ot be asked every six months in a new bug to prune the aria-hidden tree.
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- # [17:01] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Oh yeah, that's true.
- # [17:01] <@surkov> I believe you, it reminds me though "hedgehogs were crying but continued to eat a Christmas tree" :)
- # [17:01] <@MarcoZ> That's why I said surkov or someone else who can do it.
- # [17:01] <@davidb> surkov has picked up canvas
- # [17:02] <@davidb> also I love russian sayings
- # [17:02] <@surkov> :)
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- # [17:05] <@davidb> in related news, we should all attend team meetings :)
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- # [17:05] <@davidb> surkov: I don't see Rik in channel
- # [17:05] <@davidb> meh
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- # [17:14] <@surkov> davidb: he's cabanier
- # [17:14] <@davidb> aha
- # [17:14] * @davidb waves
- # [17:15] <@davidb> surkov: so setting a11y boundaries on drawFocusIsNeeded is a no-go?
- # [17:15] <@davidb> I'll be curious if you get replies to your public-canvas email.
- # [17:15] <@surkov> davidb: I hope so
- # [17:16] <@surkov> davidb: probably not, I think they need that in meetings
- # [17:16] <@surkov> I've been asked by Mark to send update to canvas mailing list
- # [17:16] <@davidb> yeah i know :)
- # [17:16] <@surkov> ok
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- # [17:46] <@MarcoZ> Having so much fun with a blind user from Puerto Rico. He's running through a Freedom Scientific PowerPoiint training course, which is full of JAWS bugs, and does it with NVDA, and none of those bugs actually affect NVDA, all works great. Such a big laugh!
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- # [19:03] <@yzen> eeejay im guessing i should hold on bug 972047 review for now ?
- # [19:03] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=972047 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] Add tests for OOP message handling and general integration
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- # [21:25] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Resolution on bug 819291 from --- to FIXED.
- # [21:25] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 819291 from NEW to RESOLVED.
- # [21:25] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 819291 from --- to mozilla30.
- # [21:25] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=819291 cri, --, mozilla30, yzenevich, RESO FIXED, crash in nsIContent::GetPrimaryFrame, called from mozilla::a11y::TextAttrsMgr::GetAttributes
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- # [22:10] <@firebot> matspal@gmail.com requested needinfo from ehsan@mozilla.com on bug 972501.
- # [22:10] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=972501 nor, --, ---, nobody, RESO INVALID, [e10s] In Gmail and etherpad editor, ⌘B shortcut opens Bookmarks sidebar instead of bolding text
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- # [22:56] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com cancelled needinfo?(ehsan@mozilla.com ) on bug 972501.
- # [22:56] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com changed the Resolution on bug 972501 from INVALID to ---.
- # [22:56] <@firebot> ehsan@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 972501 from RESOLVED to REOPENED.
- # [22:56] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=972501 nor, --, ---, nobody, REOP, [e10s] In Gmail and etherpad editor, ⌘B shortcut opens Bookmarks sidebar instead of bolding text
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- # Session Close: Sat Feb 15 00:00:00 2014
The end :)