/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2014-03-28 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  74. # [14:45] <@MarcoZ> Morning all!
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  78. # [14:52] <@MarcoZ> Good morning davidb!
  79. # [14:52] <@davidb> hi hi hi
  80. # [14:52] <@davidb> heyo
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  82. # [14:57] <@yzen> morning MarcoZ
  83. # [14:58] <Gijs> davidb: heya
  84. # [14:59] <Gijs> davidb: do you have a moment to chat about bug 988191 and color contrast?
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  86. # [14:59] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=988191 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Title bar font color shouldn't be as eager to change according to window border color on Windows 8
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  90. # [15:00] <@MarcoZ> Morning yzen! :)
  91. # [15:02] <@MarcoZ> yzen: So, is the Gaia tree closed again?
  92. # [15:03] <@yzen> MarcoZ i think it reopened yesterday
  93. # [15:03] <@MarcoZ> yzqSo let's hope you'll get that review soon. Does it really warrant another review, or is it merely a bustage fix?
  94. # [15:03] <@MarcoZ> yzen: :)
  95. # [15:03] <@MarcoZ> fat fingers.
  96. # [15:04] <@yzen> MarcoZ i have a good feeling the tabs will land today, i talked to arnau and i think the review will happen shortly
  97. # [15:05] <@yzen> btw MarcoZ , the only thing left for the new touch adapter is just ironing out android, the rest seems to work really well, including tests
  98. # [15:08] <@yzen> MarcoZ do you know what trippled swipes are used for on android ?
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  100. # [15:18] <@MarcoZ> yzen: Yes, they are for adjusting the quick navigation unit (three fingers up and down), and by moving by this quick nav unit (three finger swipes right and left).
  101. # [15:18] <@MarcoZ> yzen: So, three finger swipe down until you hear "Headings", and three finger swipes right to bring virtual cursor to the next heading in the document. Three finger swipes right will continue through headings until the end is reached. Left goes backwards.
  102. # [15:19] <@yzen> MarcoZ thanks! did eeejay mention there were some issues with that ?
  103. # [15:19] <@MarcoZ> In fact for some reason, it is currently not working on devices such as a Nexus 7 2013 edition, but works fine on a 2012 one. I filed a bug about this when we were together in Toronto: bug 978215.
  104. # [15:19] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=978215 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] Three finger swipe left and right doesn't work on Android on the Nexus 7 2013
  105. # [15:19] <@MarcoZ> So maybe your refactor will fix this. :)
  106. # [15:20] <@yzen> MarcoZ i m testing on nexus 10 :S
  107. # [15:20] <@MarcoZ> yzen: So yeah, there were some issues with that, introduced recently by an unknown cause.
  108. # [15:28] <@MarcoZ> Yay, positive review!
  109. # [15:32] <@yzen> :) now just to solve some merge conflicts
  110. # [15:34] <@davidb> cabanier: does bug 778654 interest you?
  111. # [15:34] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=778654 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, implement tabindex attribute for SVG content
  112. # [15:34] <@davidb> also, hi :)
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  117. # [16:19] <@davidb> MarcoZ: there are some who threaten "it was therefore decided to not make WAI-ARIA attributes influence browser behavior ever"
  118. # [16:23] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Oh yeah, I know. And I think it's downright wrong.
  119. # [16:23] <@davidb> agreed
  120. # [16:23] <@davidb> I was the odd one out though at the last face to face
  121. # [16:23] <@MarcoZ> davidb: If they want defined browser behavior, they should turn attributes into ones that have no aria- prefix.
  122. # [16:23] <@davidb> agreed
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  125. # [16:24] <@davidb> apparently microsoft already cracked the door open and implemented key handling automagically for role=button
  126. # [16:24] <@davidb> sigh
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  128. # [16:25] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Yeah but that's merely one browser vendor. So far, nobody has argued back to me on that point, and James C. was one of the first to write to me about the post and said he liked it.
  129. # [16:25] <@davidb> good
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  132. # [16:28] <@yzen> hmm MarcoZ i wonder if the new behaviour depends on the device or the os version
  133. # [16:28] <@yzen> it looks like
  134. # [16:28] <@yzen> on my tablet i get the following:
  135. # [16:29] <@yzen> with 1 finger: mouseenter, mousemove, mouseleave
  136. # [16:29] <@yzen> with 2 fingers: i get 2 touchstart events with a single touch in them
  137. # [16:31] <@yzen> with 3 fingers: i get a separate touch events for all 3
  138. # [16:32] <@MarcoZ> yzen: 2 fingers on Android is scrolling. So swiping in either direction with 2 fingers attempts to scroll the screen. That's a TalkBack feature.
  139. # [16:33] <@yzen> ya
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  141. # [16:37] <@yzen> MarcoZ tabs marked for checkin :)
  142. # [16:38] <@MarcoZ> yzen: Just got that mail! Yay! :)
  143. # [16:40] * davidb|afk is now known as davidb
  144. # [16:44] <@MarcoZ> yzen: Let's see how quickly the pull request gets merged! :)
  145. # [16:44] <@yzen> hah
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  147. # [16:45] <@MarcoZ> yzen: So, regarding the gestures: Did you see differences in what we receive on different devices/Android versions?
  148. # [16:46] <@yzen> MarcoZ I could not, i only have 1 working device atm, my own phone is dying everyt ime i start talk back
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  150. # [16:47] <@MarcoZ> yzen: Ouch! Perhaps davidb can help with getting you a second device for parallel testing. Is the Nexus 10 high DPI or not? A Nexus 7 2013 or a Nexus 5 would be a good addition, IMO.
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  152. # [16:47] <@yzen> davidb ^
  153. # [16:48] <@davidb> yzen best first step is ask jlin
  154. # [16:48] <@yzen> davidb ya that's how i got the nexus10 yesterday, ill ask for another device
  155. # [16:50] <@yzen> \o/
  156. # [16:50] <@yzen> merged
  157. # [16:51] <@MarcoZ> yzen: Yay! Yay! Yay!
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  177. # [17:48] <@yzen> eeejay ping
  178. # [17:48] <@eeejay> yzen, yo
  179. # [17:48] <@yzen> eeejay so im playing around with android
  180. # [17:48] <@eeejay> yzen, cool. what device
  181. # [17:48] <@yzen> nexus 10
  182. # [17:49] <@yzen> you know how we have a special case to do tap->double tap when we have 1 point with mouse id
  183. # [17:49] <@eeejay> yeah :)
  184. # [17:49] <@yzen> at least on this device, it looks like, the transition should be not tap->doubletap but tap(1point) ->tap(2point)
  185. # [17:50] <@eeejay> what is the diff, i don't understand
  186. # [17:50] <@yzen> so doubletap means tap tap doesn't matter with how many fingers
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  189. # [17:51] * @eeejay digs up android source code
  190. # [17:52] <@MarcoZ> yzen: FWIW, double-tapping an item to activate is expected to happen with one finger. Not sure if that must be the same finger, or can be done with two fingers, usually I would think I would not be fast enough to do it with 2, whereas doing it with 1 always works for me.
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  193. # [17:52] <@MarcoZ> So, double-tapping with two fingers simultaneously is a different gesture.
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  195. # [17:54] <@eeejay> yzen, what MarcoZ said
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  197. # [17:54] <@yzen> eeejay well it's not exactly what i meant so this line of code: https://github.com/mozilla/gecko-dev/blob/master/accessible/src/jsat/TouchAdapter.jsm#L300
  198. # [17:55] <@yzen> says if we get a touch event with 1 point and we currently evaluating tap, evaluate to double tap
  199. # [17:55] <@eeejay> correct
  200. # [17:55] <@yzen> from what i can see this only happens when we touch the screen with 2 fingers at the same time
  201. # [17:56] <@yzen> so i was wondering if we actually want keep it as tap but with 2 points, even though we do not care about tap event
  202. # [17:58] <@MarcoZ> I am wondering if not caring about tap events is actually a good thing, or if we should actually care, e. g. touching the screen in a targetted fashion at one point should focus the element at that point.
  203. # [17:58] <@MarcoZ> So e. g. when you know the layout of a page or app, you can specifically tap and focus an item and then double-tap to activate.
  204. # [17:58] <@MarcoZ> iOS allows this, makes using apps or pages you know very efficient.
  205. # [17:58] <@yzen> MarcoZ well it will but you have to dwell just for a bit
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  208. # [18:00] <@MarcoZ> yzen: Hmm OK. Just wondering why iOS is just so much more responsive when tapping the screen than we are inFirefox when tapping / exploring. This came up as a pain point at CSUN BTW.
  209. # [18:01] <@eeejay> yzen, you will get this with a single finger, not 2 fingers
  210. # [18:02] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, other discussion.. but we need to fix that as well
  211. # [18:02] <@MarcoZ> eeejay: OK I'll shut up about it for now. :)
  212. # [18:03] <@MarcoZ> eeejay: Should I file a bug about it, or do we already have one?
  213. # [18:04] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, i don't think we do. file something with a concrete example that is reproducible.
  214. # [18:04] <@MarcoZ> eeejay: OK.
  215. # [18:04] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, when you say it was mentioned by others in csun, you mean firefox for android?
  216. # [18:05] <@eeejay> yzen, http://osxr.org/android/source/frameworks/base/services/java/com/android/server/accessibility/TouchExplorer.java#1059
  217. # [18:05] <@MarcoZ> eeejay: Yes. Exploring around pages not being as snappy as in mobile Safari on iOS when it came to switching focus between elements. (virtual cursor, that is).
  218. # [18:05] * icaaq is now known as icaaq|afk
  219. # [18:05] <@eeejay> yzen, if you do a double tap, with a single finger, android will synthesize a single tap
  220. # [18:06] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, MarcoZ, what about non-firefox android?
  221. # [18:06] <@yzen> eeejay agreed, so it also will do that with 2 fingers down :S
  222. # [18:07] <@eeejay> yzen, correct, any two finger gesture is mutated to a single finger gesture
  223. # [18:07] <@eeejay> and three finger gestures remain three finger gestures. very intuitive..
  224. # [18:07] <@yzen> eeejay right so im jsut wondering how to consistently deal with multi finger swipes then
  225. # [18:08] <@yzen> in particular 2 finger swipes
  226. # [18:08] <@eeejay> yzen, a physical two finger swipe?
  227. # [18:08] <@yzen> yes
  228. # [18:08] <@eeejay> yzen, it will be received as a 1 finger swipe, and it needs to be re-mutated to a 2 finger swipe
  229. # [18:09] <@MarcoZ> eeejay: I have a feeling it reacts faster outisde of our web view. Can't compare web sites, since Chrome still only supports swiping left and right, no exploration of web content.
  230. # [18:10] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, i'm pretty sure you could do that in chrome..
  231. # [18:10] <@MarcoZ> eeejay: Hm, when I just tried it, it didn't work. And yes, the script enhancements are allowed, and swipes work.
  232. # [18:11] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, works here.. you don't get haptic feedback, because, well..
  233. # [18:11] <@MarcoZ> eeejay: Anyway, I'll wait on the touch adapter refactor and try again, to see if things have changed.
  234. # [18:11] <@MarcoZ> eeejay: Well, I don't get speech feedback, either. :)
  235. # [18:11] <@MarcoZ> In Chrome's web view on Kitkat, that is.
  236. # [18:12] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, i just successfully explored by touch in chrome on kitkat
  237. # [18:12] <@MarcoZ> eeejay: Interesting...and weird...
  238. # [18:12] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, also, to my untrained finger, firefox ebt feels very snappy
  239. # [18:12] * Quits: @yzen (yzen@13F2CEC5.7672369.D8E68FF6.IP) (Ping timeout)
  240. # [18:17] <@MarcoZ> eeejay: Hm, yeah, right now it feels snappy to me, too. I will find the person who specifically remarked that and ask for the testcase they were seeing this with. I noticed it during a presentation where it took a long time to actually change focus on exploration, I will find out where that was.
  241. # [18:17] <@MarcoZ> But that's for Monday, I'm off to my weekend now. See you!
  242. # [18:18] <@eeejay> MarcoZ, bye!
  243. # [18:18] * Quits: @MarcoZ (marco.zehe@moz-1037BB13.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Weekend!)
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  252. # [19:03] <Bryen> what's happening around here, folks?
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  257. # [19:47] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested needinfo from marco.zehe@google mail.com on bug 638465.
  258. # [19:47] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=638465 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, We're not picking up the insertion into the newly created window of testcase for bug 637644
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  261. # [19:51] <Gijs> davidb: trying again... do you have a moment to chat about color contrast on win 8 ? :)
  262. # [19:51] <Gijs> (bug 988191)
  263. # [19:51] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=988191 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Title bar font color shouldn't be as eager to change according to window border color on Windows 8
  264. # [19:51] <@davidb> Gijs: hi i have 9 minutes
  265. # [19:51] <Gijs> davidb: excellent, that should be enough. :)
  266. # [19:51] <@davidb> Gijs: so is this down to tweaking some edge cases?
  267. # [19:52] <Gijs> davidb: what's AERT and between that and WCAG, why are there different color contrast standards/algorithms, and which should I prefer ? :)
  268. # [19:52] <Gijs> davidb: essentially, yes
  269. # [19:52] <Gijs> AERT has an algorithm which is saying "there's not enough contrast here, invert", whereas WCAG's is saying "there's enough here, and if you invert, you're making it worse"
  270. # [19:52] <@davidb> some are based purely on values other are based on human surveys
  271. # [19:52] <Gijs> (assuming the implementations of the algorithms are correct)
  272. # [19:52] <@davidb> probably best to go with WCAG
  273. # [19:52] <Gijs> OK.
  274. # [19:53] <Gijs> davidb: I was kind of surprised by the difference, and particularly that WCAG's algorithm asserts that in: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=8396974, the white text offers less contrast than the black.
  275. # [19:54] <Gijs> (which isn't how I perceive it)
  276. # [19:54] <@davidb> well that's just it... humans differ
  277. # [19:54] <Gijs> :)
  278. # [19:54] <@davidb> as the internet reminds me daily :)
  279. # [19:54] * Bryen always differs
  280. # [19:54] <Gijs> hah
  281. # [19:55] <@davidb> Bryen your picture is in the dictionary under differ
  282. # [19:55] <Bryen> must be an earlier edition. Nowadays the word Differ is in the dictionary under my picture :-D
  283. # [19:55] <@davidb> tbsaunde: i didn't get an email from the printer yet :(
  284. # [19:55] <@tbsaunde> davidb: weird
  285. # [19:56] <@davidb> i suck at printers
  286. # [19:56] <Gijs> davidb: great, thanks for the feedback. :)
  287. # [19:56] <Bryen> davidb, where can I send a ormal invitation to the Mozilla Team to come to the International DeafBlind Expo in July?
  288. # [19:56] <@davidb> Gijs: sorry it wasn't more scientific
  289. # [19:56] <@tbsaunde> heh
  290. # [19:56] <@davidb> Bryen: the mozilla team is a hard to define concept
  291. # [19:56] <@davidb> it might include you for example
  292. # [19:57] <Bryen> davidb, Ok I mean specifically your team that works on a11y :-D
  293. # [19:57] <@davidb> Bryen: i have an email alias i can recommend but spam makes it broken
  294. # [19:57] <@davidb> so... send to me at least and i can cc?
  295. # [19:58] <Bryen> davidb, ok not sure I have your mozzy addy. you can pm it to me if you don't trust the others in this room :-)
  296. # [19:58] <@davidb> davidb @ works
  297. # [19:58] <@davidb> mozilla.com
  298. # [19:58] <Bryen> ok will send to you as soon as our prospectus is done next week. Thanks!
  299. # [19:58] <@davidb> cheers
  300. # [19:59] <@davidb> Bryen is it in vegas?
  301. # [19:59] <@davidb> again
  302. # [19:59] <Bryen> yes. Actually 2 weeks after the American Council of the Blind conference in the same hotel
  303. # [19:59] <Bryen> although our event is way cheaper than theirs
  304. # [19:59] <Bryen> and cooler, since I'll be there ;-)
  305. # [20:00] * Bryen wants clown_mtg to be there too along with eeejay.
  306. # [20:01] * clown_mtg wakes up.
  307. # [20:01] * clown_mtg is now known as clown
  308. # [20:01] <@davidb> ok going afk for an hour
  309. # [20:01] * davidb is now known as davidb|afk
  310. # [20:01] <Bryen> clown, should feel at home since Circus Circus is across the street
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  312. # [20:04] <clown> why am I thinking, "what happens in vegas stays in vegas"
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  332. # [21:45] <@firebot> kwierso@gmail.com requested needinfo from surkov.alexander@ gmail.com on bug 987026.
  333. # [21:46] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=987026 cri, --, ---, surkov.alexander, NEW, Crash when adopting a focused element [@ mozilla::a11y::FocusManager::ProcessDOMFocus]
  334. # [21:59] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com cancelled needinfo?(surkov.alexander@ gmail.com) on bug 987026.
  335. # [21:59] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=987026 cri, --, ---, surkov.alexander, NEW, Crash when adopting a focused element [@ mozilla::a11y::FocusManager::ProcessDOMFocus]
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  369. # Session Close: Sat Mar 29 00:00:00 2014

The end :)