/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2014-04-22 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  59. # [09:26] <@MarcoZ> Morning!
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  65. # [10:20] <@firebot> manishearth@gmail.com changed the Assignee on bug 634827 from nobody@mozilla.org to singh.kushagra93@gmail.com.
  66. # [10:20] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=634827 nor, --, ---, singh.kushagra93, NEW, don't set up selection listeners for controls other than text fields
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  70. # [10:48] <SteveF> Hi MarcoZ
  71. # [10:48] <SteveF> MarcoZ: thanks for the feedback on bug - helpful
  72. # [10:52] <SteveF> MarcoZ: unfortunately I don't think the outline changes were well thought out from an implementation perspective, and prematurely etched into author advice. I still think it is potentially useful, but implementation needs rethinking
  73. # [11:00] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: Yes it could potentially be useful if h2 through h6 were removed and h1 was renamed to "heading" or something, and we had *one* heading element whoselevel depended on the section nesting depth, for example. That way we'd force everybody to decide for one *or* the other, but mixing old tags with new algorithm ideas is...not a good idea.
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  75. # [11:06] <SteveF> MarcoZ: yes i agree, that having h1-h6 in the DOM actually meaning <heading> with a level based on nesting is confusing, I also think that having the implementation of the outline ONLY in the acc layer is problematic, we should be striving for an implementation that is visible, usable and understandable to your average developer, but has benefits for AT users. That is why I have raised the...
  76. # [11:06] <SteveF> ...idea of the algorithm being implemented as a DOM method, after discussions with mike smith.
  77. # [11:20] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: Yeah but that only helps the AT implementation side of things, it still doesn't solve the problem of web developers understanding how to code stuff to actually make it work right.
  78. # [11:21] <@MarcoZ> not+
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  80. # [11:51] <SteveF> MarcoZ: back to the drawing board :-(
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  85. # [12:45] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: Threw my proposal of a new single heading element into the ring that is the only thing allowed, together with section, to participate in such an outline algorithm thing.
  86. # [12:46] <SteveF> MarcoZ: yeah thanks!!
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  93. # [14:10] <@MarcoZ> Good morning yzen! :-)
  94. # [14:10] <@yzen> MarcoZ hi there :)
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  96. # [14:24] <SteveF> MarcoZ: at least we are getting some discussion happening ;-)
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  100. # [15:02] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: Yeah, curious where it will go. Certainly good to know that I'm not the only one with the idea that a new unique element is needed.
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  107. # [16:12] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: Your last comment to W3C bug25003 confuses me.
  108. # [16:12] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=25003 nor, P3, M17, serhunt, VERI WONTFIX, LiveConnect needs to allow for testing for NAV4 plugins
  109. # [16:13] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: I of course meant the bug we were discussed back and forth on all along. :)
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  111. # [16:13] <@MarcoZ> s/discussed/discussing/
  112. # [16:14] <@MarcoZ> yzen_: I really like the better responsiveness of the touch interface in Firefox for Android. :-)
  113. # [16:14] <SteveF> MarcoZ: what I am saying is don't have a strict requirement in 5.0 so if the the outline depth requirement is implemented it won't be a conflicting requirement
  114. # [16:14] <yzen_> nice :)
  115. # [16:15] <yzen_> MarcoZ i think eeejay will have some snappiness improvements too
  116. # [16:17] <@MarcoZ> yzen_: Oh, in what bug?
  117. # [16:17] <yzen_> MarcoZ not sure there's one atm
  118. # [16:17] <SteveF> MarcoZ: is a result of friendly banter over on whatwg IRC http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20140422#l-379
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  120. # [16:28] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: "Friendly banter" is certainly nicely put. But that's tone we're used to, isn't it?
  121. # [16:29] <SteveF> MarcoZ: yes people wonder why I don't venture in often
  122. # [16:34] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: Oh I totally cannot imagine why you're not hanging out there all the time! :-D :-D :-D
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  125. # [16:38] <@davidb> heyo!
  126. # [16:38] * @davidb is back from his teeth scraping
  127. # [16:43] <@MarcoZ> Heyo davidb! :-)
  128. # [16:44] <@davidb> hi hi hi
  129. # [16:44] <@davidb> MarcoZ, did you have a nice week?
  130. # [16:44] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Absolutely gorgeous! :-) Nice weather most of the time, some really nice activities. :-)
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  134. # [16:54] <SteveF> davidb: where were you when i was getting excoriated? getting your arse scraped sheesh :-)
  135. # [16:55] <SteveF> arse/teeeth
  136. # [16:55] <@davidb> lol
  137. # [16:55] <@davidb> SteveF, excoriated again?
  138. # [16:56] <SteveF> yeah http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20140422#l-379
  139. # [16:56] <SteveF> par for the course
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  141. # [17:07] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Yeah I also couldn't keep my mouth shut and jumped into that outline algorithm discussion again. :-)
  142. # [17:07] <@MarcoZ> Hardly back from vacation and already in trouble again. ;-)
  143. # [17:08] <@davidb> a11y brats
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  149. # [17:34] <tbsaunde> food?
  150. # [17:37] <@firebot> New Core - Keyboard: Navigation bug 999481 filed by bug@reallymymail.com.
  151. # [17:37] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=999481 nor, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, Navigating back/fwd using the keyboard (Alt+Numpad Arrows) inserts a diamond/spade character into fo
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  167. # [17:55] <@davidb> jwei, tbsaunde, surkov: afghani? burrito? something?
  168. # [17:55] <@surkov> I’m good with burrito
  169. # [17:55] <@surkov> afghani was too big for me last time
  170. # [17:55] * @davidb nods
  171. # [17:57] <jwei> davidb: Good with whatever.
  172. # [17:59] <@davidb> hopefully tbsaunde chimes in
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  174. # [18:01] <tbsaunde> davidb: whatever
  175. # [18:01] <@surkov> move for burrito?
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  177. # [18:01] <@davidb> tbsaunde, jwei, surkov yep
  178. # [18:01] <@davidb> roll
  179. # [18:02] <@surkov> ok
  180. # [18:02] <@eeejay> morn
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  199. # [19:06] <@davidb> jwei: looks good? https://wiki.mozilla.org/Platform/2014-04-22#Accessibility_.28dbolter.29
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  203. # [19:20] <jwei> davidb: I'll actually be speaking specifically about the MathML stuff.
  204. # [19:20] <@davidb> jwei, ok i'll edit
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  207. # [19:23] <@davidb> jwei, is "pioneering" fair?
  208. # [19:25] <jwei> davidb: Probably not - there exists MathML accessibility work, just not for Firefox.
  209. # [19:25] <@davidb> ok
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  227. # [20:25] <@davidb> eeejay: ping me whenever :) I have another meeting in 35 mins
  228. # [20:26] * icaaq|afk is now known as icaaq
  229. # [20:28] <@eeejay> davidb, ok, finding room
  230. # [20:28] <@davidb> ok me too
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  234. # [20:31] <@eeejay> davidb, on skype
  235. # [20:31] <@davidb> eeejay I PMed you
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  252. # [22:05] <@yzen> eeejay hi
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  255. # [22:15] <@surkov> tbsaunde: is there standard like NAN constant for unsinged int? I think how to make ConvertMagicOffset turn into returning an int
  256. # [22:15] <@surkov> use an error value as out arg?
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  259. # [22:33] <tbsaunde> surkov: no, I guess the closest would be magically deciding UINT32_MAX or whatever the name is is failure
  260. # [22:34] <@surkov> tbsaunde: yeah, what about bool out arg aIsFailed? would it be nicer?
  261. # [22:34] <@surkov> I’m just curious if we can be sure that we never deal with MAX values as offsets
  262. # [22:34] <@surkov> if the text can be this long
  263. # [22:35] <tbsaunde> surkov: both seem kind of gross
  264. # [22:35] <@surkov> yeah, tbsaunde, do you have preferecnes?
  265. # [22:35] * Joins: maxli1 (Adium@moz-B19F68ED.student.cs.uwaterloo.ca)
  266. # [22:35] <tbsaunde> well, it seems pretty unlikely you'd have a string that is 2^32 - 1 long
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  268. # [22:36] <tbsaunde> maybe uyou could use size_t instead of uint32_t and than the max value wouldn't be possible since then the whole address space would be the one string
  269. # [22:36] <@surkov> do you know if gecko allwos strings of this length theoretically?
  270. # [22:37] <tbsaunde> UINT32_MAX? I think so, but I wouldn't be at all suprised if there was bugs
  271. # [22:37] <tbsaunde> I guess I'd go for the size_t thing
  272. # [22:38] <@surkov> tbsaunde: what is size_t definition?
  273. # [22:40] <tbsaunde> http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/cstring/size_t/
  274. # [22:40] <tbsaunde> not really great, but it contains the important bit
  275. # [22:42] <@surkov> tbsaunde: why it can’t represent MAX value?
  276. # [22:43] <tbsaunde> surkov: what do you mean?
  277. # [22:43] <@eeejay> yzen, hey
  278. # [22:44] <@surkov> perhaps wrong question, I still not sure I see a differentce between size_t and uint32_t as return value
  279. # [22:44] <@surkov> tbsaunde: ^
  280. # [22:44] <@yzen> eeejay hi, forgot what i wanted to ask :)
  281. # [22:45] <tbsaunde> surkov: on x86_64 size_t will be 64 bits, so you can't have string of length SIE_MAX
  282. # [22:45] <@eeejay> yzen, i'll be here when you remember :)
  283. # [22:46] <@surkov> tbsaunde: either way int32_t value can be MAX of uint32_t, no?
  284. # [22:49] * Joins: clown (clown@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
  285. # [22:53] <@yzen> eeejay i think it was something related to search app, but i asked for f? on bugzilla anyways ..
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  288. # [22:57] <@eeejay> yzen, checking it out
  289. # [22:57] <@yzen> cool
  290. # [22:59] <tbsaunde> surkov: I don't understand
  291. # [23:00] <@surkov> tbsaunde: say I have void Check(int32_t aValue_ { aValue == MAX of uint23_t; } can it ever return true?
  292. # [23:01] <tbsaunde> surkov: yes
  293. # [23:02] <tbsaunde> now if that number came from the length of a string it can only be yes on x86_64
  294. # [23:02] <tbsaunde> and if you use a 64 bit type on x86-64 it will never be true
  295. # [23:02] <@surkov> I thought int32_t need to store negative bit somewhere so unit32_t is larger, no?
  296. # [23:03] <tbsaunde> surkov: no, they just have different ranges
  297. # [23:04] <@surkov> tbsaunde: what different ranges is and does it affect on max value?
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  299. # [23:05] <tbsaunde> surkov: int32_t has range { - 2^31 2^31 - 1 } and uint32_t has range { 0 2^32 - 1 }
  300. # [23:05] <@surkov> tbsaunde: so MAX of unin32_t is bigger than any of int32_t, no?
  301. # [23:06] <tbsaunde> surkov: yes
  302. # [23:06] <@surkov> so int32_t == MAX of uint32_t is always false?
  303. # [23:06] <@surkov> tbsaunde: ^
  304. # [23:07] <tbsaunde> surkov: in bits or in math?
  305. # [23:08] <@surkov> tbsaunde: what’s difference, when I gave you an example with function you said the expression can be true, how is it comes?
  306. # [23:08] <tbsaunde> surkov: err, I was thinking of bool foo(uint32_t x) { return x == UINT32_MAX; }
  307. # [23:09] <@surkov> got it
  308. # [23:09] <@surkov> tbsaunde: so if we the method takes int32_t then I can go with uint32_t as return value
  309. # [23:09] <@surkov> right?
  310. # [23:09] <tbsaunde> surkov: though int32_t(-1) == UINT32_MAX if you just look at the bits and ignore the type (atleast on all reasonable aka two's complement machines)
  311. # [23:10] <tbsaunde> surkov: yes
  312. # [23:10] <@surkov> tbsaunde: will any negative value of int32_t be casted to UINT32_MAX?
  313. # [23:10] <tbsaunde> surkov: note the whole thing is broken for strings longer than 2^31 - 1 though
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  315. # [23:11] <tbsaunde> surkov: implicitly?
  316. # [23:11] <@surkov> yes
  317. # [23:11] <@surkov> API doesn’t let us to deal with larger strings
  318. # [23:11] <@surkov> or via static_cast<>
  319. # [23:11] <@surkov> does it matter? tbsaunde
  320. # [23:12] <tbsaunde> I can never remember C's rules about if you can implicitly convert back and forth between signed and unsigned types
  321. # [23:12] <tbsaunde> surkov: well I'm not really sure what your asking
  322. # [23:12] <@surkov> tbsaunde: I meant if I return negative value from function that has uint32_t return value
  323. # [23:12] <@surkov> what the result will be?
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  325. # [23:13] <@surkov> should I have checks like if (aValue < 0) return UINT32_MAX; or I can do return aValue;
  326. # [23:13] <tbsaunde> surkov: I'd hope the compiler would yell at you and then your probably invoking undefined behavior
  327. # [23:13] <tbsaunde> you should have a check
  328. # [23:14] <@surkov> ok
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The end :)