/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2014-04-23 / end

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  76. # [09:24] <@MarcoZ> Good morning!
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  86. # [11:12] <SteveF> MarcoZ: hi
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  88. # [11:13] <SteveF> MarcoZ: AT reliance on DOM access for some info, how long do you see that being the case?
  89. # [11:16] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: Hi! We originally planned on ripping out ISimpleDOM out of Firefox on January 1, 2014. However, since Window-Eyes 8.0 *and* JAWS 15 both have no indication of moving away from that approach, and neither have given any indication that they'd do so in the foreseeable future, that is obviously not happening.
  90. # [11:17] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: These commercial AT vendors are hard to convince, especially when they still need to support versions of IE older than 10.
  91. # [11:18] <SteveF> MarcoZ: so are we talking years 5 - 10?
  92. # [11:18] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: And with things like ChromeVox also using the DOM instead of the IA2 or AX implementations in Chromium, the argument is becoming even more difficult.
  93. # [11:19] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: Afraid we are, yes.
  94. # [11:19] <SteveF> MarcoZ: i have some thoughts in regards to providing a DOM 'level' attribute to overcome the issue with regards to exposing the correct heading level, which could be queried by AT from DOM
  95. # [11:21] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: OK... That would then, however, still require them to implement support for that. :-) FS may do that, and they are certainly the more important player of the two, but GW Micro, you never know if they'll do anything significant in web a11y any time soon.
  96. # [11:22] <@MarcoZ> But it would definitely help in reducing implementation diversity. :-)
  97. # [11:22] <SteveF> MarcoZ: the fill until such times would be aria-level
  98. # [11:22] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: Yeah.
  99. # [11:23] <SteveF> MarcoZ: OK will put a sketch of idea toegther with your <h> idea, btw the <h> idea was originally floated by tim berners lee while developing HTML 2 :-)
  100. # [11:25] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: Whoohoo! That makes me feel quite accomplished! :-)
  101. # [11:26] <@MarcoZ> So the idea can't be that wrong. :-)
  102. # [11:29] <SteveF> MarcoZ: "And with things like ChromeVox also using the DOM instead of the IA2 or AX implementations in Chromium" yes I brought that up in related outline bug, but no response yet, people seem to think that exposing outline ONLY in acc layer will be good enough - views to contrary are characterized as whining
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  104. # [11:33] <@MarcoZ> Well, you can always quote my blog post and my comment 15 on 25003 if people need more info. Or point them to me, and I'll be happy to explain that in person. It's not whining, it's fact. There are inconsistencies betwen Chrome's VoiceOver support and ChromeVox support present today.
  105. # [11:33] <SteveF> MarcoZ: for raising the issue of the outline have been branded a troll, crazy and destroyer of the web platform (and thats just in the last few days) ;-)
  106. # [11:34] <@MarcoZ> Unfortunately, especially in this scenario, ChromeVox has the edge, since their ARIA support is better than VoiceOver + Chrome or Safari.
  107. # [11:34] <SteveF> MarcoZ: yes, thanks its good to have your knowledge available!
  108. # [11:35] <@MarcoZ> Yeah I will wait for Davidb's thoughts, and if he's OK, send off my application for the PFWG off later today, and ten weigh in more on this and other issues.
  109. # [11:37] <SteveF> MarcoZ: great!
  110. # [11:40] <SteveF> marcoZ: re window eyes, I think they are more open now to getting stuff implemented, since the hook up with microsoft - fingers crossed
  111. # [11:43] <@MarcoZ> You never know. But one can certainly hope, yeah. But before they come even close to supporting Office Online, they need to learn a huge bunch.
  112. # [11:51] <SteveF> MarcoZ: would it not be possible for Firefox to expose the acc level property as a read only DOM attribute?
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  114. # [11:58] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: The DOM would have to calculate the level first. Acc gets its info from the DOM, so whatever we want exposed as a DOM attribute must be implemented there, not in the Acc layer.
  115. # [11:58] <@MarcoZ> That includes stuff exposed via ISImpleDOM of course.
  116. # [11:59] <@MarcoZ> But we don't have a mechanism to communicate stuff calculated by the Acc Layer back to the DOM layer.
  117. # [11:59] <SteveF> MarcoZ: ahh OK so no way to do level calculation in acc layer and expose in DOM layer
  118. # [12:00] <@MarcoZ> Nope.
  119. # [12:00] <SteveF> too bad
  120. # [12:00] <@MarcoZ> But we've moved implementations from the Acc Layer to the DOM layer in the past, so it should be possible to do that with this beast, too.
  121. # [12:01] <@MarcoZ> We had lots of this in the Firefox 4 timeframe IIRC.
  122. # [12:29] * icaaq is now known as icaaq|afk
  123. # [12:37] * slee watching Jonathan Wei MathML video on Air
  124. # [12:43] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: Heh, annevk just tweeted the same post you did, and called out W3C plagiarism. And no I'm not going to read it.
  125. # [12:43] <SteveF> MarcoZ: war of the technocrats
  126. # [12:44] <@MarcoZ> Yeah, not getting involved in that.
  127. # [12:44] <SteveF> MarcoZ: don't blame you, see what happens when one ventures into the WHATWG sphere as I did yesterday :-)
  128. # [12:48] <@MarcoZ> Yup!
  129. # [12:59] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 1000082 filed by marco.zehe@googlemail.com.
  130. # [12:59] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1000082 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [AccessFu] When virtual focus is on a button or link, fire actual focus on the element, too
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  149. # [14:33] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Hi! Any objections to me joining the PF WG? :-) And getting involved in future ARIA development discussions etc.?
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  154. # [14:59] <@MarcoZ> Good morning yzen!
  155. # [15:00] <@yzen> hey MarcoZ
  156. # [15:00] <@yzen> I wanted to get your opinion about something
  157. # [15:00] <@MarcoZ> yzen: I'm all ears!
  158. # [15:01] <@yzen> so we have a rocketbar ui in forefox os, you probably heard about it. basically you start typing something and you get a munch of results from different sources e.g. contacts, places, local apps, web apps, marketplace apps etc
  159. # [15:01] <@yzen> some of the results are presented in a form common to the way they are presented everywhere else - in a sort of grid (like homescreen)
  160. # [15:02] <@yzen> but some other results like places or contacts look more like the autocompletion list (similar to history in the browser)
  161. # [15:02] <@yzen> im trying to figure out what the best way to represent that is
  162. # [15:03] <@yzen> eeejay suggested sticking to buttons and links but to me it feels a little more like a listbox with options , similar to many other autocomplete implementations that i've seen for example
  163. # [15:03] <@yzen> MarcoZ, thoughts :) ?
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  166. # [15:04] <@MarcoZ> yzen: We're dealing with a touch screen environment here. So whether these are option items in a list box or buttons or links doesn't matter much really, since you don't have keyboard interaction by default.
  167. # [15:05] <@MarcoZ> In the end, they are just items displayed on the touch screen below the text field. You either explore to them or find them by swiping. Since conceptualy, they are the same thing, I would also call them the same. Unless there is really something special about these functionality-wise, not just visually.
  168. # [15:06] <@MarcoZ> Good morning davidb!
  169. # [15:07] <@davidb> heyo!
  170. # [15:07] * @MarcoZ just now realizes that his e-mail to davidb this morning must have been a bit confusing. ;-)
  171. # [15:08] <@yzen> MarcoZ cool, i was thinking that different types of groupings just give different perception
  172. # [15:08] <@davidb> i haven't read it yet :)
  173. # [15:08] <@davidb> (any email)
  174. # [15:10] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Ah OK!
  175. # [15:10] <@MarcoZ> yzen: It really depends. Does the user really need to know that they are displayed somewhat differently, because the functionality is also different? Or is this just a matter of a pure visual gimmik?
  176. # [15:11] <@MarcoZ> yzen: What I am asking, I guess, is *why* are these displayed differently in the first place? Why did designers not choose the same visual representation for *all* search results in the first place?
  177. # [15:12] <@yzen> MarcoZ well good question which leads me to another one :) these groups differ in a way because they come from different sources/providers
  178. # [15:12] * davidb is now known as davidb|afk
  179. # [15:12] <@yzen> for example
  180. # [15:13] <@yzen> suggestions come from a dictionary, places lists previously opened websites and apps, contacts are contacts. apps are apps.
  181. # [15:14] <@MarcoZ> yzen: And all these types have different visual representations? And is there an explanatory hint somewhere which is which?
  182. # [15:14] <@yzen> they are not laballed on the screen so the source is sort of implied through presentation only
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  184. # [15:14] <@MarcoZ> How is a contact visually represented versus an app versus a browse history item?
  185. # [15:14] <@yzen> what i did is I added labels for them but eeejay suggested removing them unless they are also labaled on the screen
  186. # [15:15] <@yzen> so the apps will be in the grid with icons and small caption
  187. # [15:15] <@yzen> contacts have an avatar
  188. # [15:15] <@yzen> places have additional url path as small description
  189. # [15:15] <@yzen> and listed in a vertical list
  190. # [15:16] <@yzen> suggestions are horizontal list right under the input
  191. # [15:17] <@MarcoZ> yzen: I disagree with eeejay here. If these are indicated via its standard text plus some sort of graphical or background hint of what they are, this *is* a case where you use aria-label or similar, and that contains the actual item text, name, etc., plus an indicator of what it is. So you'd have "Mark Twain - contact", "Twitter - app" etc.
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  193. # [15:18] <@MarcoZ> They are not strings on the screen, but visual representations of what they are, so they need to be translated verbally somehow.
  194. # [15:18] <@yzen> oh i like that, instead of having a label for the group itself
  195. # [15:18] * davidb|afk is now known as davidb
  196. # [15:19] <@MarcoZ> Yeah, group headings should be represented normally, but since these are just different visual representations, you should work like with a more descriptive label instead.
  197. # [15:21] * icaaq is now known as icaaq|afk
  198. # [15:21] <@yzen> MarcoZ alright ill play around with it and if you are still here ill let you know if you are interested to try it out
  199. # [15:21] * icaaq|afk is now known as icaaq
  200. # [15:22] <@MarcoZ> yzen: All right!
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  203. # [15:38] <@MarcoZ> Good morning jwei! Awesome presentation! :-)
  204. # [15:39] <jwei> MarcoZ: Thanks. :)
  205. # [15:41] <@davidb> jwei: you are a natural
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  207. # [16:07] <@davidb> jwei: what do you say?
  208. # [16:07] <@davidb> (1:1)
  209. # [16:07] <@davidb> jwei: shall we save it for Friday?
  210. # [16:07] <jwei> davidb: Now's fine as well.
  211. # [16:08] <@davidb> jwei: ok!
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  215. # [16:40] <@yzen> MarcoZ i was wondering
  216. # [16:40] <@MarcoZ> yzen: Yes?
  217. # [16:40] <@yzen> imagine a list with a bunch of list items that are activatable
  218. # [16:40] <@yzen> basically a list of buttons
  219. # [16:41] <@yzen> would li with role button be valid ?
  220. # [16:42] <@yzen> wouldn't it be a good use case for a list box ?
  221. # [16:42] <@davidb> and what about table with td as role button?
  222. # [16:42] * @davidb has a table of buttons right here as part of his laptop
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  225. # [16:42] <@MarcoZ> yzen: No, it would be a similar situation like in a tab list. The li itself is only presentational, the underlying element that you click on would be the one that gets the role "button". Unless you only have plain text, in which case yes, role"button" would then go on the li itself.
  226. # [16:43] <@MarcoZ> yzen: But as soon as you have an a or such element below the li, role "button" would go on that a, not the li.
  227. # [16:43] <@yzen> MarcoZ cool, ya just text in my case
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  229. # [16:45] <@MarcoZ> yzen: You could also do listbox on the ul and option on the li. That would indicate that these are list box items.
  230. # [16:45] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Heh! :-)
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  237. # [17:11] <jwei> davidb: Reading over the email again, his questions have nothing to do with what I talked about, so I'll just punt it over to you.
  238. # [17:11] <@davidb> ok
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  245. # [17:54] <@MarcoZ> OMG, Gaia tree is closed again because the sync from Github to GitMoz is overwhelmed.
  246. # [17:54] <@MarcoZ> I knew this separation of infrastructures would bite us in the ass sometime.
  247. # [18:01] <@davidb> surkov, tbsaunde, can you guys fight over bug 987023?
  248. # [18:01] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=987023 is not accessible
  249. # [18:03] <@MarcoZ> See you tomorrow!
  250. # [18:03] <@davidb> ciao!
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  252. # [18:04] <tbsaunde> davidb: its a text bug why doesn't surkov look at it?
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  255. # [18:04] <@davidb> fair
  256. # [18:04] <@davidb> surkov, can you take a look?
  257. # [18:05] <@davidb> (own it)
  258. # [18:05] <@davidb> would be interesting to know if it recreates with your local repo
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  263. # [18:08] <@surkov> davidb: what about it?
  264. # [18:08] <@davidb> surkov, since it is a security bug, someone should take a look at it. Can you?
  265. # [18:08] <@surkov> davidb: it seems assigned to you, what did you figure out?
  266. # [18:09] <@davidb> surkov: assigned to me to find someone :)
  267. # [18:09] <@surkov> I can everything :)
  268. # [18:09] <@davidb> amazing!
  269. # [18:09] <@surkov> that’s strange
  270. # [18:09] <@davidb> surkov, common on other teams, for security bugs.
  271. # [18:09] <@surkov> davidb: did you try something else than find somebody?
  272. # [18:10] <@davidb> surkov, no
  273. # [18:10] <@surkov> hm
  274. # [18:10] <@davidb> nobody on our team (including me) has looked at it
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  277. # [18:11] <@davidb> jwei, tbsaunde, yzen, I have a lunch date FWIW
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  280. # [18:14] <@davidb> tbsaunde, didn't eitan think the problem was in our event code?
  281. # [18:14] <@davidb> eitan/ehsan
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  283. # [18:15] <tbsaunde> davidb: let me look more deeply
  284. # [18:15] <@davidb> thanks
  285. # [18:15] <@davidb> tbsaunde, i'll assign to you for now so that things are closer to reality
  286. # [18:15] <@surkov> davidb: yeah, I skipped it because you took it
  287. # [18:16] <@davidb> surkov, oh dear! well i'll ping you faster next time
  288. # [18:16] <@davidb> it doesn't look critical but you never know
  289. # [18:17] * davidb is now known as davidb|afk
  290. # [18:19] <tbsaunde> davidb|afk: no, its definitely text related, ehsan just said it was a11y stuff
  291. # [18:19] * davidb|afk is now known as davidb
  292. # [18:20] <tbsaunde> HyperTextAccessible::CharetOffset() needs to be callable in that context even if we don't call it there
  293. # [18:20] <@davidb> oh i took it too literally i guess "This looks Accessibility related; even though the code uses contenteditable, the stack is an accessibility event running"
  294. # [18:20] <@davidb> tbsaunde, can you comment in the bug
  295. # [18:20] <@davidb> bbl
  296. # [18:20] <tbsaunde> I guess
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  300. # [18:30] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 1000295 filed by yzenevich@mozilla.com.
  301. # [18:30] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1000295 nor, --, ---, yzenevich, NEW, [AccessFu] Enable traversing to elements with role="status".
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  318. # [20:07] <@davidb> bbl
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  330. # [20:27] <@yzen> eeejay any time
  331. # [20:28] <@eeejay> yzen, starting skype
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  355. # [22:11] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 1000465 filed by surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  356. # [22:11] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1000465 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, fix bunch of warning in hypertext accessible class
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  383. # [23:04] <@davidb> jwei https://twitter.com/davidbolter/status/459075293622177792
  384. # [23:04] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 1000500 filed by yzenevich@mozilla.com.
  385. # [23:05] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1000500 nor, --, ---, yzenevich, NEW, [AccessFu] When traversing to the link, prevent stepping into it.
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  390. # [23:31] <maxli> ugh, I missed bug 1000000, oh well
  391. # [23:31] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1000000 nor, P1, ---, nobody, NEW, Celebrate 1000000 bugs, bring your own drinks
  392. # [23:35] <Ryuno-Ki> maxli: Me, too. A German member drew my attention to it
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  402. # Session Close: Thu Apr 24 00:00:01 2014

The end :)