/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2014-06-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jun 04 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  30. # [03:29] <firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 1020039 filed by kwierso@gmail.com.
  31. # [03:29] <firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1020039 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Intermittent relations/test_embeds.xul | Can't get accessible for [object XULElement]
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  79. # [10:58] <@MarcoZ> Morning slee and SteveF! :)
  80. # [10:59] <SteveF> MarcoZ: hi!
  81. # [10:59] <SteveF> MarcoZ: have you read heydons book?
  82. # [11:02] * Quits: @eeejay (eeejay@moz-B3973587.xen.prgmr.com) (Ping timeout)
  83. # [11:02] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: Not yet actually. I have a tab open here where I am meaning to purchase it, but haven't got around to it yet.
  84. # [11:03] <SteveF> MarcoZ: :-)
  85. # [11:03] <@MarcoZ> I like Heydon's work and the questions he's asking. And with you as a reviewer, that's endorsement enough for me to recommend it without having read it.
  86. # [11:03] <@MarcoZ> yet.
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  94. # [11:23] <SteveF> MarcoZ: heydon brings a refreshing perspective and style to the subject matter
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  99. # [12:14] <slee> SteveF: I just order a copy of the book. I read the previous O'reilly one on Universal Web Apps
  100. # [12:14] <SteveF> slee: cool hope you find it useful
  101. # [12:15] <slee> The Smashing site says you 'reviewed' it but no reviews listed - do they mean a forward?
  102. # [12:15] <slee> I still have the Lawson edited book you recommend - will read it one day :)
  103. # [12:19] <SteveF> slee: no i tech reviewed it as it was being written (which is what they mean)
  104. # [12:24] <SteveF> slee: you talking about bruce/remy intor to html5?
  105. # [12:24] <SteveF> intor/intro
  106. # [12:26] <slee> Nah, standards and Compliance. 2nd ed of bruce/remy is great - I have that.
  107. # [12:27] <slee> Also chisholm/may http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596518745.do
  108. # [12:27] * icaaq is now known as icaaq|afk
  109. # [12:27] <slee> Will have to open library soon
  110. # [12:27] <slee> SteveF: ^^
  111. # [12:28] <SteveF> ah right
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  114. # [12:29] <slee> Marcy Sutton just discussing writing a book on FB - this new one got mentionend too
  115. # [12:29] <@MarcoZ> Hi all!
  116. # [12:29] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: Ping?
  117. # [12:29] <slee> MarcoZ: hi - sorry missed your hail earlier
  118. # [12:30] <@MarcoZ> slee: Yeah I dropped out due to a Windows freeze which required me to restart.
  119. # [12:30] <slee> MarcoZ: surely not! :D
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  121. # [12:31] <slee> I'm sad I've only had a couple of occurrences the new 8.1 Blue screen of death so far
  122. # [12:31] <@MarcoZ> slee: Yeah this is Windows 7.
  123. # [12:31] <slee> MarcoZ: ah - flaky as hell that one ;)
  124. # [12:31] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: Hey I'm wip-ing up a patch to introduce placeholder as AccDescription if not already used as a label, bug 670083.
  125. # [12:32] <firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=670083 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, expose placeholder as description if wasn't used as name
  126. # [12:32] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: The question I am running into and which nobody has answered yet is, if both placeholder and title are present on a form field, which one should win? I would *think* placeholder...
  127. # [12:34] <SteveF> MarcoZ: this may be helpful http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/placeholder-labelling.html
  128. # [12:38] <SteveF> MarcoZ: the issue is that title is used in html5 to provide error messages for controls, so would suggest that in non error state the title be dropped from acc description in favour of placeholder if present. In error state the title and placeholder text be concatenated to produce acc description
  129. # [12:39] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: OK, makes sense.
  130. # [12:39] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: Not sure how to deal with the wrapped label/placeholder text name calc issue, may deal with that later.
  131. # [12:40] <SteveF> MarcoZ: sure I think I have raised this in past with alex, there is probably a bug somewhere
  132. # [12:43] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: Probably! :) I will deal with the accDescription bits for now.
  133. # [12:45] <SteveF> MarcoZ: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=631591
  134. # [12:45] <firebot> Bug 631591 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, different accessible name depending on the label element association method used
  135. # [12:45] <@MarcoZ> SteveF: Thanks!
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  137. # [12:46] <SteveF> MarcoZ: Reported: 2011-02-04 :-)
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  141. # [13:05] <abin> any body know how to get back to home screen in the infocus firefox o.s
  142. # [13:05] <abin> ?
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  163. # [14:46] <@davidb> heyo!
  164. # [14:46] * @davidb -> shower
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  171. # [15:38] <@MarcoZ> Hi all!
  172. # [15:38] <@MarcoZ> Not a slacker, bogged down in building a patch and testing on a Firefox build constantly.
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  174. # [15:43] <firebot> marco.zehe@googlemail.com changed the Assignee on bug 670083 from nobody@mozilla.org to marco.zehe@googlemail.com.
  175. # [15:43] <firebot> marco.zehe@googlemail.com changed the Status on bug 670083 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
  176. # [15:43] <firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=670083 nor, --, ---, marco.zehe, ASSI, expose placeholder as description if wasn't used as name
  177. # [15:45] <@davidb> hi MarcoZ!
  178. # [15:45] <@MarcoZ> Hi davidb!
  179. # [15:45] * @MarcoZ is in patch writing mode again. :D
  180. # [15:47] <@davidb> :)
  181. # [15:47] <slee> MarcoZ: 3 mins have passed - are you still patching :)
  182. # [15:47] <@davidb> surkov, did you try your sim in the flame?
  183. # [15:48] <@surkov> nope, I trusted you when you said wind won’t work :)
  184. # [15:48] <@MarcoZ> slee: Yes, just sent the patch to surkov for review and am writing a seond one on top of that which takes a moment to get done and build. :)
  185. # [15:49] <slee> woah! I'm goiingto have to get faster at my C RFID code writing mode
  186. # [15:52] <@MarcoZ> Heh
  187. # [15:55] <@davidb> surkov, yeah.
  188. # [16:01] <@surkov> MarcoZ: why do you append placeholder to description?
  189. # [16:02] * @MarcoZ needs to log off again to test the patch for bug 631591 he's writing.
  190. # [16:02] <firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=631591 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, different accessible name depending on the label element association method used
  191. # [16:03] <@MarcoZ> surkov: I append the title or whatever else to the description after the placeholder if a) it is present and b) it is different from the label, so all information is there. For example HTML5 form fields put their intrinsic error states in the title.
  192. # [16:03] <@MarcoZ> s/error states/error messages/
  193. # [16:03] <@MarcoZ> surkov: So if someone uses a label, placeholder, *and* the title gets filled, all info is there.
  194. # [16:05] <@MarcoZ> surkov: so if placeholder is present and is not the label, it gets added to AccDescription first, since it is the part that is also immediately visible to the sighted user.
  195. # [16:05] <@surkov> MarcoZ: why do you think it’s expected behavior?
  196. # [16:05] <@MarcoZ> surkov: If then the normal description routine also finds something, which is different from the label *or* the placeholder, it gets appended.
  197. # [16:05] <@surkov> it sounds like excpetion from what we had before
  198. # [16:06] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Following what Chrome and Safari are doing actually. See http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/placeholder-labelling.html, with some improvements.
  199. # [16:07] <@MarcoZ> surkov: It appears to become an emerging pattern that web developers put placeholders in when also using a proper label, and actually relay important information in the placeholder.
  200. # [16:08] <@surkov> MarcoZ: I don’t see that from the chart, where exactly should I look at?
  201. # [16:08] <@MarcoZ> surkov: The example that made me get started on this was http://pauljadam.com/demos/mobileforma11y.html
  202. # [16:08] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Like I said, with some improvements. Look at what Chrome on Windows does when both label and placeholder are present.
  203. # [16:10] * davidb is now known as davidb|afk
  204. # [16:10] <@surkov> I’d say they do something wrong, but I still don’t follow why the proposed behavior is improvement :)
  205. # [16:11] <@surkov> I bet the improvement doesn’t go with ARIA spec for example
  206. # [16:11] <@surkov> and it really makes the placeholder an unique attribute
  207. # [16:11] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Look at Paul Adam's examples for the e-mail and telephone number.
  208. # [16:11] <@surkov> ok
  209. # [16:11] <@MarcoZ> This is a pattern I've seen used more and more in recent months.
  210. # [16:12] <@surkov> MarcoZ: ok, what’s special about them?
  211. # [16:12] <@MarcoZ> They have both a label and a placeholder. The placeholder explains the expected format.
  212. # [16:13] <@surkov> they just have label and placeholder which is fine and doesn’t require concatenation, no?
  213. # [16:13] <@MarcoZ> surkov: ^
  214. # [16:13] <@MarcoZ> surkov: There won't be any concatenation with those examples.
  215. # [16:13] <@surkov> MarcoZ: yeah but you do
  216. # [16:13] <@surkov> and I don’t get why
  217. # [16:13] <@MarcoZ> What will happen with this patch is the label is the acc name, the placeholder will be the acc description.
  218. # [16:14] <@surkov> I agree with that
  219. # [16:14] * davidb|afk is now known as davidb
  220. # [16:14] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Now, if there would also be a *title* attribute in addition to the placeholder, that would be concatenated to the end of the placeholder text.
  221. # [16:14] <@MarcoZ> In acc description.
  222. # [16:15] <@surkov> MarcoZ: correct but I don’t get a reason
  223. # [16:15] <@surkov> do we have use case in the web for that? that’s unusual
  224. # [16:15] <@surkov> for name and description calculation logci
  225. # [16:15] <@MarcoZ> surkov: The reason is simply: The information is provided, so expose it to AT.
  226. # [16:15] <@surkov> logic
  227. # [16:16] <@MarcoZ> surkov: I am just thinking like a crazy web developer. :)
  228. # [16:16] <@MarcoZ> And Steve Faulkner confirmed that the title attribute holds the error message if an input becomes invalid. So it should be exposed. We talked on channel this morning.
  229. # [16:16] <@surkov> maybe we could leave concatenation out of box for now? :)
  230. # [16:16] <@surkov> it sounds like a different topic
  231. # [16:17] <@MarcoZ> surkov: And I chose to put placeholder first because that is immediately visible to sighted people, where title only becomes visible when hovering the mouse over it. So the more important thing *after* the label is what's in placeholder, not in title.
  232. # [16:17] <@surkov> I agree we should expose placeholder as description but concatenation is not so evident with em
  233. # [16:17] <@surkov> I agree with ordering
  234. # [16:18] <@surkov> we have ARIA and HTML spec and they are agree about placeholder but they don’t allow concatenation afaik
  235. # [16:18] <@MarcoZ> surkov: So they rather prefer that some information is lost?
  236. # [16:19] <@surkov> MarcoZ: maybe they don’t really prefer that, but it’s not allowed now so I understand that lost info is not always good and may be bad but it looks like different topic
  237. # [16:20] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Or maybe we just implement it this way and propose to update the spec and strengthen it with a working implementation.
  238. # [16:20] <@surkov> yeah but benefits are not also evident with me for this specific use case
  239. # [16:20] <@surkov> so you do for example concatenate aria-describedby and placeholder
  240. # [16:21] <@surkov> I would discuss that with people before implementation
  241. # [16:21] <@MarcoZ> surkov: The benefit is that no info is lost. E. g. there could be an error message in the title that the user never gets to hear when there is a label and placeholder, if we don't concatenate.
  242. # [16:21] <@surkov> MarcoZ: but we do lost info in case of name computation and it seems people lives with that fine
  243. # [16:21] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Oh yeah, I could adjust for that and check if the description came from tool tip I guess.
  244. # [16:22] <@MarcoZ> surkov: OK, you win.
  245. # [16:22] <@surkov> thank you! :)
  246. # [16:22] <@MarcoZ> I'll pull out the bit about concatenating the bits and just expose placeholder as accDescription if it is present and differs from the label/name.
  247. # [16:24] * @MarcoZ is back in a moment, testing and building.
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  250. # [16:36] * Joins: MarcoZ (marco.zehe@moz-83391A73.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  251. # [16:36] * ChanServ sets mode: +ao MarcoZ MarcoZ
  252. # [16:36] <@MarcoZ> OK, building takes a bit.
  253. # [16:37] <@MarcoZ> surkov, I am also looking at bug 631591.
  254. # [16:37] <firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=631591 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, different accessible name depending on the label element association method used
  255. # [16:37] <@surkov> MarcoZ: yeah that’s tricky one, I won’t be surprised if current behavior goes with our computation alrogithm
  256. # [16:38] <@MarcoZ> surkov: I thought the best place would be to put in a check for a placeholder specific return value from nameNative for placeholders in nsTextEquivUtils::NameFromAccessible where we also check for the tooltip value.
  257. # [16:38] <@MarcoZ> But that didn't give me the desired result.
  258. # [16:39] <@surkov> MarcoZ: maybe we should have something like NativeDescription
  259. # [16:39] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Yeah I read through the bug and still don't understand why label nesting with and without the for attribute makes a difference.
  260. # [16:40] <@surkov> it’s legislative paradox :)
  261. # [16:40] <@MarcoZ> surkov: But aren't the two techniques supposed to be giving identical results in other cases?
  262. # [16:40] <@surkov> it might be a bug but perhaps we have to change our name computation alg
  263. # [16:41] <@surkov> I would say so as a human :)
  264. # [16:41] <@surkov> but we are guided by algorithm
  265. # [16:41] <@MarcoZ> surkov: The algorithm is thought up by humans, too. ;)
  266. # [16:41] <@surkov> right if we find a way how to change it without breaking other stuff then it’s the way to go
  267. # [16:41] <@surkov> but it’s some piece of work
  268. # [16:42] <SteveF> surkov: if algorithm produces nonsensical results needs to be fixed - bug filed if specced
  269. # [16:42] <@surkov> SteveF: result might be sensical, it depends how you look at it
  270. # [16:43] <@surkov> another problem is FF alg is different from ARIA one
  271. # [16:43] <@surkov> it’s weird problem but it’s likely requires lot of work
  272. # [16:43] <@surkov> weird and small
  273. # [16:43] <SteveF> surkov: expected behaviour should be same for both methods of label use
  274. # [16:44] <@surkov> SteveF: yeah, that’s what you said in the bug
  275. # [16:44] <@surkov> it’s not so evident with me though
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  278. # [16:45] <SteveF> surkov: the html spec does not state that there is any difference between the 2 methods and no one would know there was unless they looked at acc api output
  279. # [16:47] <@surkov> SteveF: html spec delegates name calculation to ARIA alg
  280. # [16:47] <@surkov> SteveF: I think you agree it’s not always possible to change general rule to fit all examples and thus all you can do is to have exception from generic rule
  281. # [16:47] <@surkov> but it sill doesn’t fit the alg
  282. # [16:48] <SteveF> surkov: so then its a bug in aria algo- there is no sense in having divergence on it as the expectation is they the 2 methods are the same and in all other ways they are
  283. # [16:48] <@surkov> SteveF: yeah, it could be but somebody needs to do investigations
  284. # [16:48] <SteveF> surkov: chrome gets it right :-)
  285. # [16:49] <@surkov> SteveF: maybe :) it depends what right is 1) following the spec 2) following your thinkgin :)
  286. # [16:49] <@surkov> I don’t really know
  287. # [16:49] <@surkov> someobyd need to look at the issue close
  288. # [16:50] <@surkov> I wanted to do that but always find an excuse to do that later
  289. # [16:50] <SteveF> surkov: if you can definitively say its an aria bug (as you keep suggesting) then i will file a bug on the name algo
  290. # [16:51] <@surkov> SteveF: ok, let me bump its priority for me
  291. # [16:51] <SteveF> surkov: it could well be that chrome has implemented the aria algo correctly...
  292. # [16:51] <@surkov> I don’t really know who’s guilty
  293. # [16:51] <@surkov> absolutely
  294. # [16:52] <SteveF> well it doesn't really matter, question is what is the best output for users/devs/interop
  295. # [16:52] <@davidb> SteveF, that sort of reduces to, what is best for users
  296. # [16:53] <@davidb> (because if devs/interop ain't happy, users won't benefit)
  297. # [16:54] <SteveF> davidb: yes, but having divergent behaviour for what is expected to be the same behaviour across browsers puts onus on devs
  298. # [16:54] <@davidb> agreed
  299. # [16:54] <SteveF> I am suprised we are even having to debate this :-)
  300. # [16:55] <@davidb> debate? in #accessibility? never!
  301. # [16:55] <@davidb> ;)
  302. # [16:56] <SteveF> we have 2 mthods to assign a label to a control both are commonly expected to produce the same result
  303. # [17:05] <@MarcoZ> Frankly, I wouldn't even know what sense it would make to put a for attribute on a label that nests the input anyway, but OK...
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  307. # [17:17] * ChanServ sets mode: +ao MarcoZ MarcoZ
  308. # [17:18] <@MarcoZ> surkov: This patch look any better?
  309. # [17:18] <@surkov> let me look
  310. # [17:19] <@surkov> MarcoZ: @ttile is preferred over @placeholder which is unexpceted, right
  311. # [17:19] <@surkov> ?
  312. # [17:19] <@surkov> it seems like you need something like NativeDescription
  313. # [17:20] <@MarcoZ> Oh shit, why does every fucking patch I touch require huge refactors?
  314. # [17:21] <@surkov> MarcoZ: yeah, that’s not just two lines
  315. # [17:21] <@MarcoZ> surkov: So what's this thing with nativeName and nativeDescription anyway?
  316. # [17:21] <@surkov> I think I would try to introduce NativeDescription and use it inside Description() where I would compare results of Name()
  317. # [17:22] * Quits: peteb (peteb@moz-665C7E84.austin.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout)
  318. # [17:22] <@MarcoZ> surkov: I still don't get what goes in ::name versus ::nativeName.
  319. # [17:23] <@surkov> NativeName is specific name from markup (no ARIA, no HTML labels)
  320. # [17:23] <@surkov> actually it has HTML labels
  321. # [17:23] <@surkov> but doesn’t have title stuff
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  324. # [17:30] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Hm from what I can see in generic/accessible.cpp, there is not really anything I could separate out from accessible::Description into a nativeDescription method.
  325. # [17:31] <@surkov> MarcoZ: maybe only XUL part
  326. # [17:32] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Oh yeah, that...
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  328. # [17:33] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Is EDescrValueFlag be a good name for the new enumeration?
  329. # [17:34] <@surkov> MarcoZ: can’t you reuse namevalue flag for description?
  330. # [17:34] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Sure can.
  331. # [17:34] <@surkov> if it’s name confusing then you can use textequiv as prefix
  332. # [17:35] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Nope, think the name flags will work just fine.
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  334. # [17:35] <@surkov> ok
  335. # [17:36] <@surkov> that may be a bit strange if Description() returned name constant
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  339. # [17:49] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Thinking about it more, I don't think I even need flags for the description return types. I can stick to void even for the nativeDescription methods.
  340. # [17:50] <@davidb> man i'm hungry
  341. # [17:50] * @davidb heads over to #toronto
  342. # [17:52] <@surkov> MarcoZ: ok, let me look at the patch, I dont’ clearly undersntad how it can work since Description() doesn’t really know what NativeDescr returns
  343. # [17:52] <@surkov> davidb: what do you want for food?
  344. # [17:53] <@davidb> surkov, discussing in #toronto
  345. # [17:53] <@surkov> k
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  372. # [20:18] <@yzen> eeejay any time if you are available
  373. # [20:20] <eeejay> yzen, i'll be in opentok in 5
  374. # [20:20] <@yzen> eeejay see you there
  375. # [20:21] <eeejay> yzen, ok. there!
  376. # [20:40] * Quits: SteveF (chatzilla@moz-6F24D0BD.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout)
  377. # [20:41] <firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 1020510 filed by surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  378. # [20:41] <firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1020510 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, let tbody/etc accessible in table hierarchy
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  381. # [20:47] <eeejay> davidb, ping?
  382. # [20:47] <@davidb> eeejay hi!
  383. # [20:47] <@davidb> eeejay, give me 2 mins?
  384. # [20:48] <eeejay> davidb, sure. i'm in my opentok office
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  391. # [21:07] <@davidb> eeejay http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/accessible/src/windows/msaa/Compatibility.h#55
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  393. # [21:11] <@yzen> eeejay wow the homescreen is not accessible at all for me
  394. # [21:11] * Joins: icaaq (icaaq@moz-B572B301.cust.telenor.se)
  395. # [21:11] <@davidb> :(
  396. # [21:11] <@yzen> i guess it's gaia-grid
  397. # [21:12] <eeejay> uck
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  404. # [21:37] <firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 1020548 filed by surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  405. # [21:37] <firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1020548 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, update aria-orientation impl to ARIA 1.1
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  407. # [21:51] <@davidb> surkov, apparently should work on flame
  408. # [21:51] <@surkov> davidb: wind?
  409. # [21:52] <@davidb> sorry.. fido
  410. # [21:52] <@davidb> surkov is fido the one you were thinking about switching to?
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  412. # [21:52] <@surkov> davidb: yes
  413. # [21:53] <@davidb> should work
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  418. # [22:08] <eeejay> yzen, looks like gaia-grid is not accessible
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  423. # [22:15] <@yzen> eeejay do you want me to take a look or you are ?
  424. # [22:15] <eeejay> yzen, i could look at it
  425. # [22:16] <@yzen> alright ill play with e.me
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  436. # [22:41] <@yzen> hey eeejay
  437. # [22:41] <eeejay> yzen,
  438. # [22:41] <eeejay> hey
  439. # [22:42] <@yzen> the PREFILTER_TRANSPARENT, at what point it's applied
  440. # [22:42] <@yzen> ?
  441. # [22:42] <eeejay> yzen, for opacity: 0
  442. # [22:44] <@yzen> eeejay right
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  454. # Session Close: Thu Jun 05 00:00:00 2014

The end :)