/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2014-07-10 / end
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- # Session Start: Thu Jul 10 00:00:00 2014
- # Session Ident: #accessibility
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- # [10:47] <@MarcoZ> Oh Thunderbird beta, you bastard, refresh your view of Gmail if I make changes on another device, without me having to close and reopen you!
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- # [14:49] <@firebot> marco.zehe@googlemail.com requested needinfo from surkov.alexander@ gmail.com on bug 1034978.
- # [14:49] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1034978 — NEW — crash in nsIContent::GetPrimaryFrame()
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- # [15:19] <@yzen> MarcoZ hi
- # [15:19] <@yzen> i've made some changes to isfirefoxosaccesssibleyet.com , something both you and eeejay suggested, care to see if it feels better now ?
- # [15:19] <@yzen> http://isfirefoxosaccessibleyet.com/
- # [15:34] <@MarcoZ> yzen: I like this one!
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- # [15:43] <@davidb> heyo!
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- # [15:56] <@MarcoZ> Heyo davidb!
- # [15:56] <@davidb> hi hi
- # [15:56] <@MarcoZ> surkov: I think Sina and others disagree with the fact that we're basing the creation of accessibles on layout information rather than pure HTML markup at all.
- # [15:56] <@surkov> MarcoZ: yeah, I think that’s the point
- # [15:56] <@MarcoZ> surkov: In essence, if HTML doesn't say TABLE, then there should not be a table accessible, regardless of what CSS might suggest.
- # [15:57] <@MarcoZ> surkov: It is very possible that we made some wrong assumptions when we decided that only Layout should tell us what we should create.
- # [15:58] <@surkov> for me it’s just a point of view
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- # [15:59] <@surkov> after all the web is too complicated to match one of approaches (either HTML based or layout based)
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- # [15:59] <@MarcoZ> Well, a general rule of thumb is that CSS is for layout only, whereas HTML is for content.
- # [16:00] <@MarcoZ> So it should not be assumed that CSS table properties mean ever anything other than layout, e. g. never is a data table created in CSS, always in HTML.
- # [16:00] <@surkov> ignoring layout is basically wrong, say you have HTML input type file then it’s may be bunch of other controls
- # [16:00] <@MarcoZ> surkov: ^
- # [16:01] <@MarcoZ> surkov: I agree with you totally.
- # [16:01] <@MarcoZ> surkov: But the problems uncovered in bug 1005271 show that authors expect a data table to be rendered as a data table regardless of what CSS properties they stick on it.
- # [16:01] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1005271 — NEW — Data Table with display:block exposes no table semantics
- # [16:02] <@MarcoZ> surkov: And yes, I consider this to be a bug on our part.
- # [16:02] <@surkov> MarcoZ: depending on properties it might be not a table at all
- # [16:03] <@MarcoZ> surkov: But the author uses table markup in their HTML. So they *expect* what they intend to be a data table to be rendered to screen readers as a data table. The CSS may visually alter its appearance, but it is still a data table.
- # [16:03] <@surkov> MarcoZ: there are examples when HTML table is used for non tables
- # [16:04] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Yes, but we have heuristics for that.
- # [16:04] <@surkov> MarcoZ: the point is HTML markup might be not so important
- # [16:04] <@surkov> I mean it doesn’t mean any semantcis in general
- # [16:04] <@MarcoZ> surkov: It is to the web authors.
- # [16:04] <@MarcoZ> It is the language they use.
- # [16:05] <@MarcoZ> surkov: And it is the means with which they communicate the semantics.
- # [16:06] <@MarcoZ> They simply don't expect the CSS sugar to completely alter the semantics of what they put in the HTML.
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- # [16:06] <@MarcoZ> surkov: Bug 1005271 and bug 1007975 clearly communicate that.
- # [16:06] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1007975 — REOPENED — div with display:table exposes table semantics
- # [16:07] <@davidb> how is the CSS spec these days? are they keeping semantics out of it?
- # [16:07] <@surkov> HTML may have or may not have semantics, HTML + CSS has to have semantics?
- # [16:07] * clown is now known as clown_mtg
- # [16:08] <@davidb> i'm thinking about semantics in the machine readable sense
- # [16:08] <@surkov> it sounds like we have an use case and we want to make it as general rule
- # [16:08] <@davidb> fix one bug create two more ;)
- # [16:08] <@surkov> as usual
- # [16:08] <@davidb> where is the main discussion happening?
- # [16:12] <@davidb> surkov, for bug 1005271 do you have a strong opinion?
- # [16:12] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1005271 — NEW — Data Table with display:block exposes no table semantics
- # [16:12] <@davidb> (comment 4 says no)
- # [16:12] <@davidb> (err comment 2)
- # [16:14] <@davidb> heh so in this case it is like html is the aria, and the css is the html
- # [16:15] <@davidb> so they want aria to override html (html to override css)
- # [16:16] <@davidb> so we need to be very deliberate about whether that is the right general rule
- # [16:16] <@MarcoZ> Yup.
- # [16:16] <@davidb> it works when the author uses the tech that way.
- # [16:16] <@MarcoZ> Which *is* the final authority on CSS in terms of spec?
- # [16:17] <@davidb> maybe it comes down to whether we agree with https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1007975#c13
- # [16:17] <@firebot> Bug 1007975 — REOPENED — div with display:table exposes table semantics
- # [16:17] <@davidb> MarcoZ, browser implementation ;)
- # [16:17] <@davidb> but seriously that is a dbaron question
- # [16:17] <@MarcoZ> davidb: surkov: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/tables.html
- # [16:25] <@firebot> New Core - Keyboard: Navigation bug 1036966 filed by dbolter@mozilla.com.
- # [16:26] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1036966 — NEW — Make accessible keyboard navigation of web content default on OSX
- # [16:29] <@surkov> davidb: it’s not a table from layout perspective, it’s rather a bad markup than Firefox bug
- # [16:30] <@davidb> surkov, why doesn't everyone agree with you?
- # [16:30] <@davidb> surely this is a grey area?
- # [16:30] <@surkov> davidb: people has different opinions?
- # [16:30] <@davidb> heh
- # [16:30] <@davidb> i think i'm cursed to always see both sides
- # [16:31] <@surkov> you can see but not always you can understand them
- # [16:31] <@davidb> true!
- # [16:31] <@davidb> hmmm
- # [16:31] <@davidb> we don't always give up with bad markup
- # [16:31] <@davidb> 'give up' is the wrong phrase but you know what i mean
- # [16:32] <@davidb> surkov, what does clown_mtg think?
- # [16:33] * clown_mtg clown_mtg is in a meeting. leave a message and he will get back to you.
- # [16:35] <@davidb> clown_mtg, what is your opinion on bug 1005271?
- # [16:35] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1005271 — NEW — Data Table with display:block exposes no table semantics
- # [16:39] <@davidb> surkov, our table a11y machinery is very layout based right?
- # [16:40] <@davidb> i.e. fixing this would be non-trivial
- # [16:42] <@surkov> davidb: yes and perhaps
- # [16:43] <@davidb> my mind is wandering
- # [16:43] <@davidb> (pure DOM based AT vs nsAccessible...)
- # [16:43] * @davidb looks into his crystal ball
- # [16:43] <@davidb> firebot, fortune?
- # [16:44] <@firebot> Thegame12
- # [16:44] <@davidb> wtf?
- # [16:47] <@MarcoZ> ROFL!
- # [16:47] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Wait, you mean this could drive people to use DOM-based approaches in the future and ignore our IA2/ATK/whatever impls?
- # [16:48] <@davidb> no
- # [16:48] <@yzen> MarcoZ so the new version of the website, there's a comments directory where we put the score and a comment for each app. I started scoring them already, but would be interested in your thoughts, you can totally clone the repo too btw
- # [16:48] <@MarcoZ> yzen: Will take a look in a bit.
- # [16:48] <@MarcoZ> davidb: What did you mean, then?
- # [16:49] <@davidb> MarcoZ, i'm thinking about interop... and whether we could ever expect most other a11y 'servers' to implement things the FF way
- # [16:49] * @MarcoZ nods.
- # [16:49] <@davidb> DOM AT probably never would follow us here.
- # [16:49] <@MarcoZ> There surely seems to be a lot of pushback esp on these two bugs from many places in the community.
- # [16:50] <@MarcoZ> davidb: I even doubt that Chrome, which are copying us, would expose things in this manner now ejven in IA2.
- # [16:50] <@davidb> i think following layout has had an upside.
- # [16:50] <@davidb> we should ping chrome/dominic
- # [16:51] * @MarcoZ fires up Chrome and looks at the testcases.
- # [16:55] <@firebot> bzbarsky@mit.edu requested needinfo from dbolter@mozilla.c om on bug 1036966.
- # [16:55] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1036966 — NEW — Make accessible keyboard navigation of web content default on OSX
- # [16:59] <@davidb> MarcoZ, do you know the original bug bz refers to? ^
- # [17:00] * @davidb finds 'fullKeyboardAccessProperty"
- # [17:00] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Sorry was in Chrome.
- # [17:00] <@davidb> no worries
- # [17:01] <@MarcoZ> davidb: surkov: Chrome Canary (Chrome 38) does both bug 1005271 and bug 1007975 the way the community would like. The stuff in bug 1005271 is a table, the one in bug 1007975 is not.
- # [17:01] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1005271 — NEW — Data Table with display:block exposes no table semantics
- # [17:01] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1007975 — REOPENED — div with display:table exposes table semantics
- # [17:04] * @davidb assumes surkov is looking at that
- # [17:05] * @davidb hunts for original osx keyboard bug
- # [17:05] <@surkov> I do
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- # [17:15] <@davidb> MarcoZ, can you find out if chrome honours the osx keyboard settings? i.e. or do they override them and always allow kb nav?
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- # [17:21] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Will need to reboot into OS X to find out. Be back in a bit. Bootcamp...
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- # [17:21] <@davidb> i can check
- # [17:22] <@davidb> chrome ignores the setting
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- # [17:32] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Chrome has its own setting, a checkbox called "Tab focuses links as well as form fields", which is checked by default. Safari also has its own setting for this, and this is unchecked by default. Both are completely ignorant of the OS setting on this matter.
- # [17:34] <@davidb> MarcoZ, where is the safari setting located?
- # [17:35] <@davidb> BTW i confirmed the Chrome behaviour
- # [17:37] <@MarcoZ> davidb: In the Safari Preferences, in the Advanced Tab I believe.
- # [17:37] <@davidb> ah i see it now thanks
- # [17:42] <@davidb> MarcoZ, any idea why safari ignores the os setting?
- # [17:44] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com cancelled needinfo?(dbolter@mozilla.c om) on bug 1036966.
- # [17:44] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1036966 — NEW — Make accessible keyboard navigation of web content default on OSX
- # [17:47] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Nope. The setting was introduced in Mavericks I *believe*. Before that, Safari honored the setting.
- # [17:47] <@MarcoZ> I don't know why this change happened.
- # [17:47] <@davidb> MarcoZ, interesting, can you comment about the change in teh bug?
- # [17:48] <@davidb> MarcoZ, do you know which bugmail cookiecrook is active with?
- # [17:48] * @davidb is getting multiple hits
- # [17:48] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Nope, I don't know what bug mail he is active with.
- # [17:48] <@davidb> ack
- # [17:48] <@davidb> i'll email him
- # [17:50] <@MarcoZ> Yup :)
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- # [20:38] <@davidb> yzen, eeejay, any plan to get really clever with the camera app? do you know of any work to recognize faces etc?
- # [20:38] <@davidb> (ideally a bug #)
- # [20:40] <@yzen> davidb i dont think we planned anything for it yet , i believe that was post 2.1
- # [20:40] <@davidb> yeah, i'm wondering if it is something that research could help with... or maybe a project/contract
- # [20:41] <@davidb> probably worth seeing if we could compile something to js
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- # [20:41] <@davidb> emscripten... anyways don't want to distract you -- just curious if there are rumblings
- # [20:46] <@yzen> davidb ya i would be curious to try things, i wonder if ios does anything with the camera
- # [20:46] <@davidb> it sure does
- # [20:46] <@davidb> ask marcoz when he's on
- # [20:50] <@yzen> i will
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- # [21:13] <@davidb> did he play yesterday?
- # [21:14] <@davidb> bbiab
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- # Session Close: Fri Jul 11 00:00:00 2014
The end :)