/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2014-07-29 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  30. # [06:35] <@firebot> wchen@mozilla.com cancelled needinfo?(wchen@mozilla.com) on bug 1040735.
  31. # [06:35] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1040735 — ASSIGNED, surkov.alexander — crash in mozilla::a11y::Accessible::BindToParent(mozilla::a11y::Accessible*, unsigned int)
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  63. # [10:56] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 1045518 filed by marco.zehe@googlemail.com.
  64. # [10:56] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1045518 — UNCONFIRMED — Bad performance degradation with NVDA under Windows XP in FF 32
  65. # [11:06] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Assignee on bug 1045081 from nobody@mozilla.org to tete009+bugzilla@gmail.com.
  66. # [11:06] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1045081 — UNCONFIRMED, tete009+bugzilla — TextRange.cpp failed to compile on VS2013: error C2872
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  73. # [12:50] <@firebot> xtc4uall@gmail.com requested needinfo from jdiggs@igalia.com on bug 947265.
  74. # [12:50] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/947265 — NEW — Endless focus grabs when tabbing to entries on a github gist
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  91. # [15:15] <@davidb> heyo
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  94. # [15:18] <@yzen> MarcoZ hi
  95. # [15:22] <@yzen> MarcoZ so i got to the root of the problem for the statusbar regression. it has to do with the use of moz-element css property (https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/element) or more generally this API (https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/document.mozSetImageElement). I really feel like, especially in statusbar, the use of this functionality is inappropriate. Basically Gaia introduced a new component app-toolbar,
  96. # [15:22] <@yzen> which is specific to all apps, it implements the rocketbar searchbar in the status bar + mimics the statusbar itself (that is moved offscreen) by replicating it as a background image using the above CSS property. I's part of 2.1 UI updates that also include per app styling of the statusbar etc.
  97. # [15:32] <@MarcoZ> yzen: Hi! OK, haven't read the links yet, but this sounds rather ugly...
  98. # [15:33] <@yzen> MarcoZ basically the css property lets you point to an id of an element that will have its subtree converted into image
  99. # [15:34] <@MarcoZ> yzen: Yeah. The accessibles are still there. You can swipe to them. But they are no longer visible to us.
  100. # [15:34] <@MarcoZ> Gosh, who *wrote* this stuff! The first sentence alone is totally unintelligible: "Changes the element being used as the CSS background for a background with a given background element ID.". CC davidb
  101. # [15:34] <@yzen> MarcoZ ya because the status bar is offscreen, and not hidden or anything
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  103. # [15:35] <@davidb> it could use some edits
  104. # [15:35] <@davidb> i'm just not sure this is good for the web
  105. # [15:35] <@MarcoZ> This is not good for the web at all IMO.
  106. # [15:35] <@yzen> well the funny part that it updates with dom so im not exactly sure why it is not dom
  107. # [15:35] <@davidb> i need to look at it from more angles or something
  108. # [15:35] <@MarcoZ> basically this looks like a canvas thingie to me.
  109. # [15:36] <@yzen> MarcoZ it is indeed mentioned as the usecase, but i am not sure about any other
  110. # [15:36] <@yzen> A particularly useful scenario for using this would be to render an image in an HTML <canvas> element, then use that as a background.
  111. # [15:36] <@MarcoZ> yzen: Yeah it is moved off-screen, not display: none;'d or so. That's why we're still seeing it. In order for the ID reference to work, this has to remain present.
  112. # [15:37] <@MarcoZ> yzen: So in order to *properly* support this, we'd have to create fake valid bounds of all the sub tree items that map to the actual location within the background image so we can still access it.
  113. # [15:37] <@yzen> MarcoZ so im trying to figure out the way forward. The most obvious and least ellegant one is to have app-toolbar actually replicating statusbar icons for each app
  114. # [15:38] <@yzen> MarcoZ i belive you can do all sorts of additonal positioning tricks with the bg, which means a pretty complicated calculations
  115. # [15:39] <@MarcoZ> yzen: So...This whole status bar is one single element in the rocket bar or whatever it's called, right?
  116. # [15:39] <@yzen> davidb, MarcoZ kgrandon was wondering if this is ever going to be supported by the a11y API, im i guessing correctly that a bg image is an image and thus it does not contain any accessibles ?
  117. # [15:39] <@MarcoZ> yzen: A background image is a blackbox. It has no semantic information, the only representation is its element in the DOM.
  118. # [15:40] <@yzen> MarcoZ well more or less yes, it has a tiny search bar and all icons in the background yes
  119. # [15:40] <@yzen> i dont think it has anything else, by clicking on it you will get to the full rocketbar
  120. # [15:40] <@MarcoZ> yzen: We do support Canvas accessibility by faking a whole DOM tree alongside the Canvas itself, and the web author has to do all the heavy-lifting to make sure to provide us with the correct bounds of all the stuff that's on the canvas.
  121. # [15:40] <@davidb> (my answer is nsAccessibilityService::GetOrCreateAccessible)
  122. # [15:41] <@yzen> MarcoZ, davidb i feel like supporting this thing is like supporting imagemap
  123. # [15:41] <@davidb> in what sense?
  124. # [15:41] <@MarcoZ> yzen: Image Map is easier since you still have each rectangle spelled out explicitly in the markup.
  125. # [15:41] <@yzen> MarcoZ yeah
  126. # [15:42] <@yzen> we would somehow need to evaluate segments of the background image as the sections MarcoZ mentioned, davidb
  127. # [15:42] <@davidb> does one element background contain more than one fake widget?
  128. # [15:43] <@yzen> davidb if by widget you mean a statusbar icon for example, then yes, you can probably convert a whole body element into a background image for itself
  129. # [15:43] * @davidb vomits
  130. # [15:43] <@davidb> well
  131. # [15:43] <@davidb> i mean in practice
  132. # [15:43] <@davidb> in gaia
  133. # [15:44] <@yzen> yes it's all the separate statusbar icons, like battery with all the metadata that comes with it, signal strenghts, data transfers, hardware connections, etc
  134. # [15:46] <@MarcoZ> So a blackbox.
  135. # [15:46] <@davidb> reminds me of opera's thin client
  136. # [15:46] <@yzen> davidb but it's an interesting point, i think it would be a little better if each one would be trasposed separately
  137. # [15:46] <@MarcoZ> How can we even develop such a CSS technique without *anyone* checking with us for accessibility implications, *before* this gets used anywhere?
  138. # [15:47] <@davidb> i'm in the middle of composing an email to overholt
  139. # [15:47] <@davidb> and i'm having lunch with him today
  140. # [15:47] <@MarcoZ> We better put a STOP sign on this now, before the accessibility isn't figured out, this stuff can't be used in Gaia. Period.
  141. # [15:50] * @davidb cc's jst
  142. # [15:50] <@davidb> MarcoZ, yes clarity is good, if we are sure.
  143. # [15:51] <@davidb> yzen, does kgrandon sound ready to turf it?
  144. # [15:52] <@yzen> davidb well he was wondering how we can go about it , from the bug itself it felt like it was a blocker for other 2.1 things
  145. # [15:52] <@davidb> yzen, what is driving this pattern?
  146. # [15:54] <@davidb> MarcoZ, yzen, it does seem pretty clear this usage is no good. do you agree?
  147. # [15:54] <@yzen> davidb i m guessing, based on Rob's email about key UX changes for 2.1, it's on top of the list for, and i m guessing it was the easiest implementation
  148. # [15:54] <@yzen> davidb +1
  149. # [15:55] <@yzen> davidb based on the fact that the very first use of it in Gaia is a misuse
  150. # [15:56] <@davidb> yzen, can you point me at the bug/isse?
  151. # [15:56] <@davidb> issue
  152. # [15:56] <@yzen> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1042083
  153. # [15:56] <@firebot> Bug 1042083 — FIXED, etienne — Implement App Titlebar
  154. # [15:56] <@tbsaunde> yzen: in case you aren't aware image map is a pile of garbage, but we *could* make that work if we needed to
  155. # [15:57] <@yzen> tbsaunde yeah, i dont think the use moz-element should be encouraged at all, tbh
  156. # [15:57] <@MarcoZ> davidb: I just read through the doc for -moz-element, and this has been in Firefox, at least with basic support, since 4.0 apparently.
  157. # [15:58] <@MarcoZ> davidb: And no, this is no good. And I am wondering what problem is to be solved by this, since they need to keep the elements in the DOM anyway for the reference to work.
  158. # [15:59] <@MarcoZ> yzen: I totally agree!
  159. # [15:59] <@tbsaunde> yzen: I don't really get it the use case, but I don't get the use case for most of the stuff in the web so *shrug*
  160. # [15:59] <@yzen> :)
  161. # [15:59] <@tbsaunde> basically another day more garbage
  162. # [16:00] <@davidb> yzen is it for performance?
  163. # [16:01] <@yzen> davidb i belive the opposite https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1042083#c15
  164. # [16:01] <@davidb> yzen, do you know 'why' they made this change?
  165. # [16:02] <@davidb> sorry if you answered already in scrollback
  166. # [16:02] <@yzen> you mean implementation or the UX use case ?
  167. # [16:02] <@davidb> implementation
  168. # [16:02] <@yzen> davidb i would speculate that it's easiest to implement
  169. # [16:03] <@davidb> if true, a perfect storm for a11y
  170. # [16:04] <@davidb> yzen, my current feeling is that we don't have the resources to provide an a11y solution for this pattern
  171. # [16:06] <@yzen> davidb ack
  172. # [16:06] * @davidb -> meeting
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  174. # [16:07] <@MarcoZ> yzen: We should definitely make this a storm, and I trust davidb|afk to kick this off at his lunch appointment today. I think this should be reworked. This is semantic rubbish the way it is now.
  175. # [16:25] <@MarcoZ> yzen: Were those code changes big? I mean, is it easy to revert and reimplement so that all the items are touchable, but functionality is retained?
  176. # [16:26] <@MarcoZ> yzen: I'm thinking Guerilla tactics here...
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  183. # [16:51] <@yzen> MarcoZ well, i think there are waut to implement this differently
  184. # [16:52] <@yzen> MarcoZ for example by keeping the app-titlebar functionality as part of the global statusbar
  185. # [16:52] * davidb|afk is now known as davidb
  186. # [16:55] <@davidb> MarcoZ, yzen, overholt is a dead end on this issue
  187. # [16:56] <@davidb> yzen, let me know how the gaia meeting goes
  188. # [16:56] <@yzen> ok
  189. # [16:58] <@yzen> MarcoZ would you mind commenting on bug 1042083 ?
  190. # [16:59] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1042083 — FIXED, etienne — Implement App Titlebar
  191. # [17:13] <@MarcoZ> yzen: Done.
  192. # [17:13] <@MarcoZ> And I was quite explicit.
  193. # [17:13] <@yzen> MarcoZ awesome :)
  194. # [17:15] <@MarcoZ> davidb: In what way is Overhault a dead end here? Because this is a technical decision?
  195. # [17:15] <@MarcoZ> s/overhault/overholt/
  196. # [17:15] <@davidb> MarcoZ, i mean he had no background on that tech
  197. # [17:15] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Roger.
  198. # [17:15] <@davidb> i was trying to dig up enough info so that i knew if the tech itself was our enemy or just the abuse thereof
  199. # [17:16] <@davidb> your comment is impressively clear BTW :)
  200. # [17:16] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Heh, that was my intention.
  201. # [17:17] <@tbsaunde> davidb: it doesn't seem that much worse than the rest of the web and all the awful things on it
  202. # [17:19] <@davidb> that is defeatist :)
  203. # [17:19] * @davidb hands tbsaunde a sword
  204. # [17:21] <@MarcoZ> Yeah I am sometimes also all for not giving web developers too much stuff to play with. Theyll just find ways to make it not accessible far too easily.
  205. # [17:21] <@MarcoZ> And I am so thankful no other browser has picked up on this shitty thing yet.
  206. # [17:22] <@tbsaunde> davidb: just realistic
  207. # [17:23] <@davidb> dare to dream :)
  208. # [17:23] <@davidb> it is the mozilla way
  209. # [17:23] <@davidb> that would sound so much better if i knew latin
  210. # [17:24] <@tbsaunde> davidb: but if the eb isn't the world I don't need to care about the bad
  211. # [17:24] <@tbsaunde> heh
  212. # [17:25] <@MarcoZ> rbsauBelieve me, you can do shitty thing with native frameworks, too. So the web is just one other wild west scene.
  213. # [17:25] <@MarcoZ> tbsaunde: Believe me, you can do shitty things accessibility-wise with other native frameworks, too, the web is just one more wild west scene.
  214. # [17:25] <@MarcoZ> I sometimes call it the world wild west even.
  215. # [17:26] <@tbsaunde> MarcoZ: sure, but the native stuff basically works
  216. # [17:26] <@MarcoZ> tbsaunde: Not necessarily. Think of all the stuff we had to do to make Firefox for Android accessible. That is our web content wrapped in a native widget, and we got no accessibility for free there. ;)
  217. # [17:27] <@MarcoZ> And I've also seen some crazy code on iOS. Apple just provides some clever protocols to make this stuff accessible much more easily than others.
  218. # [17:28] <@tbsaunde> MarcoZ: my claim \exists native setup that basically works, not \forall native frameworks it just works
  219. # [17:29] <@MarcoZ> tbsaunde: I agree, it is far too easy on the web to hack stuff together that is not accessible by default. And nothing preventing authors from doing so.
  220. # [17:33] <@davidb> Desktops have best practices.
  221. # [17:33] <@davidb> The web is where the creative mess can foster (err fester?)
  222. # [17:33] <@davidb> :)
  223. # [17:34] <@MarcoZ> davidb: Yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean people obide by them. The web also has best practices, but it is far too easy to circumvent those, be it out of lack of knowledge or ignorance.
  224. # [17:34] <@davidb> conceeded
  225. # [17:35] <@davidb> I'm thinking back the late 90's when I used Visual Studio and could basically create and compile any rudimentary windows app with a few keystrokes to get started, and then pick my subsequent UI from a palette.
  226. # [17:35] <@davidb> You had to work harder to be different.
  227. # [17:36] <@davidb> and of course win32 and MFC baked a11y in (eventually)
  228. # [17:36] <@MarcoZ> Yup. So you got most of it for free when you used the palette.
  229. # [17:36] <@tbsaunde> davidb: you have to work pretty hard to be inaccessible when all you have to work with is ascii ;)
  230. # [17:37] <@davidb> tbsaunde, you live in a shell :)
  231. # [17:37] <@davidb> but at least you don't live in emacs
  232. # [17:37] <@MarcoZ> ASCII can be pretty inaccessible, too, because it has no semantics. What's a heading? On and don't get me started on tables! Counting hyphens and pipe symbols to figure out what goes in which column. Dreadful!
  233. # [17:38] <@tbsaunde> davidb: and?
  234. # [17:38] <@MarcoZ> No, tbsaunde lives in Vim, which is just as bad. :D
  235. # [17:38] <@davidb> blasphemy!
  236. # [17:38] <@davidb> :wq
  237. # [17:38] <@tbsaunde> meh, works well enough ime
  238. # [17:38] <@MarcoZ> tbsaunde: I get my bugmail in HTML nowadays because that will give me a proper data table that represents what got removed and hwat added to a bug. ;)
  239. # [17:39] <@MarcoZ> Among other things. Yes, I like rich e-mail content and despise plain-text nowadays.
  240. # [17:52] <@MarcoZ> yzen: Just saw that there are already dependent bugs being resolved. The longer this sits there and gets stuff stacked on top, the more difficult it will be to revert. :/
  241. # [17:53] * davidb is now known as davidb|afk
  242. # [17:56] <@yzen> MarcoZ yes i will try to convince kgrandon today
  243. # [17:58] <@MarcoZ> yzen: Thank you!
  244. # [18:00] <@MarcoZ> If he needs an analogy, tell him that this is like taking a semantically correct document with headings and all, and printing it out on paper, but forgetting to put the ink into the printer, so he ends up with a white sheet of paper.
  245. # [18:00] <@yzen> MarcoZ yeah ill relay
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  279. # [20:42] <eeejay> davidb, in the opentok site
  280. # [20:42] <@davidb> ack - just need 2 mins
  281. # [20:43] <@yzen> eeejay hi
  282. # [20:43] <eeejay> yzen, yo
  283. # [20:43] <@yzen> eeejay did you get some spam about statusbar :) ?
  284. # [20:43] <eeejay> yzen, indeed!
  285. # [20:44] <@yzen> yeah
  286. # [20:44] <eeejay> yzen, didn't read it. please tell me this is not a web components regression
  287. # [20:44] <@yzen> eeejay no it's the use of moz-element to replace statusbar when in apps
  288. # [20:44] <@yzen> as an background image
  289. # [20:45] <eeejay> yzen, is that the weird mirroring css thing?
  290. # [20:45] <@yzen> yeah
  291. # [20:45] <eeejay> i hate them so much
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  294. # [21:01] * clown is now known as clown_mtg
  295. # [21:07] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Resolution on bug 1034923 from --- to FIXED.
  296. # [21:07] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 1034923 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  297. # [21:07] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 1034923 from --- to mozilla34.
  298. # [21:08] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1034923 — FIXED, continuation — AccEventGen.py code generator should not generate dangerous public destructors in refcounted classes
  299. # [21:12] <clown_mtg> davidb, are you there?
  300. # [21:13] <@davidb> clown_mtg, hi last meeting ran long
  301. # [21:13] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  302. # [21:13] <clown_mtg> davidb, okay. you are on your way?
  303. # [21:13] <clown_mtg> or you can't make it?
  304. # [21:13] <@davidb> clown_mtg, depends, do you need me?
  305. # [21:14] <clown_mtg> davidb, we always need you.
  306. # [21:14] <clown_mtg> ;-)
  307. # [21:14] <clown_mtg> davidb, there are a couple of news items you should hear about.
  308. # [21:15] * Quits: @davidb (davidb@13F2CEC5.7672369.D8E68FF6.IP) (Connection reset by peer)
  309. # [21:15] <clown_mtg> davidb, at the moment, bryan is the only other attendee. It might be a short one today.
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  329. # [23:25] <yash_> eeejay: hi, did you try the new patch? I set up visual studio 2010 env on my pc, and it worked for me.
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  333. # Session Close: Wed Jul 30 00:00:00 2014

The end :)