/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2014-08-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 29 00:00:01 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  40. # [07:50] <@firebot> maxli@maxli.ca changed the Assignee on bug 980510 from nobody@mozilla.org to maxli@maxli.ca.
  41. # [07:50] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/980510 — NEW, maxli — [AccessFu] After moving by granularity, swiping to next object brings up current object.
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  48. # [09:44] <@MarcoZ> Morning!
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  67. # [15:01] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Resolution on bug 1059020 from --- to FIXED.
  68. # [15:01] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 1059020 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  69. # [15:01] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 1059020 from --- to mozilla34.
  70. # [15:01] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1059020 — FIXED, jruderman — "ASSERTION: bad size recorded" with accessibility, Notification
  71. # [15:03] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Resolution on bug 1052122 from --- to FIXED.
  72. # [15:03] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 1052122 from ASSIGNED to RESOLVED.
  73. # [15:03] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 1052122 from --- to mozilla34.
  74. # [15:03] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1052122 — FIXED, trev.saunders — derecursify TreeWalker::NextChild
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  77. # [15:33] <@davidb> heyo
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  82. # [15:47] <francisATgwn> where can I find documentation of any accessibility APIs that are exposed to extension javascript?
  83. # [15:48] <francisATgwn> searching the mdn isn't turning up much except how to make UIs accessible
  84. # [15:50] <@davidb> francisATgwn, what is the extension's purpose?
  85. # [15:52] <francisATgwn> davidb: shifting focus within the document in response to arrow keys
  86. # [15:52] <francisATgwn> we install firefox on a kiosk-like device with an input device that only has directional arrows and an enter key. we've forked spatial navigation from the core product into an extension that we can maintain and improve more easily. I'm looking for a better way to determine what is "to the left/right/up/down of" the currently focused element than by using a tree walker and doing my own geometric calculations from bounding boxes
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  88. # [15:53] <@davidb> francisATgwn, I'd try really hard not to use the a11y scripted interfaces if possible because using the a11y interface invokes our big heavyweight a11y engine and would be overkill.
  89. # [15:53] <@davidb> (nsIAccessibleRetrieval)
  90. # [15:54] * @davidb thinks about an alternative
  91. # [15:54] <francisATgwn> ok. I'm finding that calculating the geometry and computed styles of all elements on a page (especially pages like cnn.com) is very processor intensive. some of our devices have atom processors and it's just a very poor experience in terms of responsiveness
  92. # [15:54] * @davidb nods
  93. # [15:55] <@davidb> francisATgwn, i wonder if you could utilize caret navigation mode somehow
  94. # [15:56] <@davidb> (F7)
  95. # [15:57] <@davidb> probably not really
  96. # [15:57] <icaaq> davidb do you have a minute and just look at my comment here https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1056933#3 does it make sense?
  97. # [15:57] <@firebot> Bug 1056933 — NEW — Move Submenu close button to be first item in submenu and expose on focus
  98. # [15:57] <francisATgwn> the few times I've turned it on, it seemed like it had insufficient granularity. but maybe I just couldn't see where the caret was (part of our extension injects CSS so the currently focused element has a nice big, yellow focus ring around it)
  99. # [15:58] <francisATgwn> seems like, at least in the default implementation, I can't escape from form elements using caret navigation
  100. # [15:59] <@davidb> icaaq, i feel like there must be a keyboard model designed for this already... that said nothing jumps out as not making sense
  101. # [15:59] <@davidb> francisATgwn, yeah it isn't exactly what you want...
  102. # [16:01] <@davidb> not sure
  103. # [16:02] <icaaq> davidb yes, probably. havent found anything yet. will have another look
  104. # [16:02] <francisATgwn> davidb: I see the API is doing caching (invalidateSubtreeFor). I've gone down that road with my code and it causes as many headaches as it solves problems
  105. # [16:02] <@davidb> icaaq, does http://access.aol.com/dhtml-style-guide-working-group/#menu help?
  106. # [16:03] <@davidb> francisATgwn, we really have no choice
  107. # [16:03] <@davidb> and yes, headaches
  108. # [16:04] <francisATgwn> how do you get at the geometry information, does the c++ code have more direct access to the layout engine?
  109. # [16:04] <@davidb> yes
  110. # [16:04] <@davidb> we can look at the frame tree
  111. # [16:05] <@davidb> since a decision was made long ago to try to stay true to what is visually true.
  112. # [16:05] <@davidb> so we do.
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  115. # [16:07] <@davidb> (you can think of the frame tree as our layout/render tree)
  116. # [16:09] <francisATgwn> so what would it take to spin up the accessible engine and start using it on a content document? is it not as simple as instantiating an nsIAccessible for an interesting node? Is there some example javascript code I can start from as a reference?
  117. # [16:09] <@davidb> yeah 1 sec
  118. # [16:10] <icaaq> davidb found this http://terrillthompson.com/tests/menus/accessible-mega-menu/test.html
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  120. # [16:15] <@davidb> francisATgwn, i seem to have blown away my sample code
  121. # [16:15] <@davidb> it was probably slightly old anyway
  122. # [16:16] <francisATgwn> do you know of an extension that I can crack open?
  123. # [16:17] <@davidb> dom inspector comes to mind, but that is huge
  124. # [16:18] <francisATgwn> interesting. I woudn't have guessed it would use an accessibility api
  125. # [16:18] <@davidb> yeah we have an a11y tree view option there
  126. # [16:18] <@davidb> plus event monitoring
  127. # [16:20] <francisATgwn> so how do I get from an element to an nsIAccessible? is there boilerplate required to enable the engine?
  128. # [16:21] <@tbsaunde> francisATgwn: there should be code for that in dom inspectors support for looking at accessibility stuff
  129. # [16:21] <francisATgwn> ok
  130. # [16:23] <@tbsaunde> francisATgwn: basically once you have the nsIAcessibleRetrieval component I think you can just call getAccessibleFor on it with a node
  131. # [16:26] <francisATgwn> tbsaunde: are we talking about this dom inspector? https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/dom-inspector-6622/?src=search
  132. # [16:27] <@davidb> tbsaunde is correct
  133. # [16:27] <francisATgwn> tbsaunde: nevermind! I figured it out! it helps to unzip the jar
  134. # [16:27] * davidb is now known as davidb|afk
  135. # [16:40] <francisATgwn> tbsaunde: OK. I've got an accessible from a node, very cool. I can get its bounds with getBounds. However, it doesn't implement the four directional methods I'm most interested in (getAccessibleAbove, getAccessibleToRight, etc) as documented here: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/nsIAccessible Any idea why that might be?
  136. # [16:43] <@tbsaunde> francisATgwn: other nobody ever needed them no
  137. # [16:44] <francisATgwn> tbsaunde: so the methods were never implemented?
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  139. # [16:46] <@tbsaunde> francisATgwn: as far as I'm aware
  140. # [16:48] * davidb|afk is now known as davidb
  141. # [16:49] <@davidb> i guess that's that then
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  144. # [16:50] <@MarcoZ> Hi there!
  145. # [16:51] <francisATgwn> nsIAccessible.parent gives me the ability to walk up the tree across security boundaries, from the content node right to the main browser window, so that's a huge improvement
  146. # [16:52] <@davidb> hi MarcoZ
  147. # [16:52] <francisATgwn> can the accessibility API give me computed css information or otherwise determine if an element is not visible to the user, more efficiently that document.getComputedStyle?
  148. # [16:58] <@tbsaunde> francisATgwn: its probably faster but I never really tested
  149. # [16:59] <francisATgwn> tbsaunde: what is the "it" that you refer to as being faster?
  150. # [17:01] <@davidb> MarcoZ, i guess you are holding the fort Monday :)
  151. # [17:18] <@tbsaunde> francisATgwn: accessibility stuff
  152. # [17:18] <francisATgwn> tbsaunde: I'm new here, I'm not sure what accessibility API is available that can give me visibility information for a particular node, what am I looking for?
  153. # [17:21] <@tbsaunde> francisATgwn: what do you want to know?
  154. # [17:21] <francisATgwn> I want to know whether or not a node is visible to the user. a node would not be visible if it were hidden via CSS visibility or if it or one of its ancestors were removed from the layout via display: none;
  155. # [17:23] <francisATgwn> I currently use getComputedStyle for that. In combination with a TreeWalker where I can cut off an entire subtree at the ancestor where display:none takes effect, this works well. However, it's slow enough that on a larger page the tree walking process is user perceptible, measured in seconds
  156. # [17:24] <francisATgwn> I'm looking for an alternative approach that could be more efficient
  157. # [17:27] <@tbsaunde> francisATgwn: I don't think you'll get accessible objects for display: none elements
  158. # [17:27] <@tbsaunde> for display: hidden you can do accessible.getState() and see if it has the visible or offscreen state
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  160. # [17:28] <@tbsaunde> francisATgwn: there's probably examples of checking this sort of thing in accessible/src/jsat/
  161. # [17:28] <francisATgwn> you are correct, getAccessibleFor returns null
  162. # [17:30] <francisATgwn> that's excellent!
  163. # [17:30] <francisATgwn> can I get access to mozilla::a11y::TreeWalker from javascript?
  164. # [17:33] <@tbsaunde> francisATgwn: no
  165. # [17:37] <francisATgwn> ok. it looks like it would be sufficient for me to use a traditional tree walker, filter out any nodes for which getAccessibleFor returns null as well as checking the state. perhaps I should filter out States.UNAVAILABLE, .OFFSCREEN, and .INVISIBLE
  166. # [17:38] <@MarcoZ> davidb: I expect a quiet day without any incidents. ;)
  167. # [17:38] <@davidb> heh yeah
  168. # [17:43] <@tbsaunde> francisATgwn: offscreen and unavailablbe depend on exact needs but something like that
  169. # [17:45] <francisATgwn> alright then, is there anything in the accessibility API that can tell me if a node is scrollable, taking into account the overflow CSS property?
  170. # [17:45] <@tbsaunde> francisATgwn: I'm not actually sure
  171. # [18:07] * davidb is now known as davidb|afk
  172. # [18:08] <@tbsaunde> !summan surkov
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  180. # [19:03] <@davidb> tbsaunde, FWIW I pinged surkov and he said he'd out but home later, email him in the meantime if you like
  181. # [19:03] <@davidb> he'd/he's
  182. # [19:09] <@tbsaunde> davidb: it can wait
  183. # [19:09] <@davidb> ack
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  188. # [19:24] <@tbsaunde> joanie: ping
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  194. # [19:56] <joanie> tbsaunde: pong
  195. # [19:57] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  196. # [19:58] <@tbsaunde> joanie: how do you feel about getting caret events if fo.html#bar gets openned in a background tab?
  197. # [19:58] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
  198. # [19:59] <joanie> hmmmm
  199. # [19:59] <@tbsaunde> Gecko seems to think the caret is per doc or per tab or something like that
  200. # [19:59] <joanie> what Orca would do even given events, I'm not entirely sure. Having said that....
  201. # [19:59] <joanie> Due to some magic somewhere, when the user switches to the tab, Orca should present the correct thing
  202. # [19:59] <@tbsaunde> which I guess is kind of reasonable
  203. # [20:00] <joanie> ultimately, if we get that "where's the caret-containing child?" stuff in ATK and then implemented, Orca could ask.
  204. # [20:00] <joanie> in the meantime, I think my answer is: We want the event.
  205. # [20:00] <joanie> But we might not be handling it -- yet.
  206. # [20:00] <@tbsaunde> joanie: yeah, and I think that's the part where you really want accessible with caret, though maybe events and tracking more than one caret works too
  207. # [20:00] * joanie smiles
  208. # [20:01] <joanie> Orca manages multiple document frames and caret offsets within them
  209. # [20:01] <@tbsaunde> joanie: great, makes my life easy
  210. # [20:01] <joanie> but I do not think that if a page is loaded in a non-active tab, Orca listens to the caret moved events
  211. # [20:01] <joanie> clearly in this use case it should
  212. # [20:01] <joanie> but if you give me the event, I can start paying attention to it
  213. # [20:02] <@tbsaunde> joanie: yeah, just need to make sure Alex is ok with it then I'll check it in
  214. # [20:02] <joanie> yay! thanks!!
  215. # [20:02] <@tbsaunde> turned out to be an easy fix so np
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  224. # [21:03] <dj_dij> hii can anybody help me with this bug? https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=737766#c35 this would be my first bug and its marked as a good first bug
  225. # [21:03] <@firebot> Bug 737766 — NEW — Firefox can't save the homepage.
  226. # [21:05] * davidb|afk is now known as davidb
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  228. # [21:06] <@tbsaunde> dj_dij: depends what you want to know
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  231. # [21:09] * @davidb wonders if this is a good first bug
  232. # [21:14] <dj_dij> tbsaunde: i have been trying to understand the solution through comments for sometime, i could reproduce the problem through accerciser then via comment 15 i understood that an input event is to fired for HyperTextAccessible methods. i found the HyperTextAccessible class but don't know how to fire the event now
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  237. # [21:20] <@tbsaunde> dj_dij: start with this comment https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=737766#c15 if that doesn't help ask smaug I guess
  238. # [21:20] <@firebot> Bug 737766 — NEW — Firefox can't save the homepage.
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  243. # [21:52] * davidb is now known as davidb|afk
  244. # [21:56] * davidb|afk is now known as davidb
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  248. # [22:43] <dj_dij> tbsaunde: is it possible that the bug is already fixed because i am doing the same steps on my machine as stated in description https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=737766#c0 but it is working correctly
  249. # [22:43] <@firebot> Bug 737766 — NEW — Firefox can't save the homepage.
  250. # [22:44] <@firebot> tabraldes@mozilla.com changed the Assignee on bug 1041070 from tabraldes@mozilla.com to trev.saunders@gmail.com.
  251. # [22:44] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1041070 — ASSIGNED, trev.saunders — Update `CacheChildren` and `ShutdownChildrenInSubtree` to avoid locking up main thread
  252. # [22:48] * Parts: clown (clown@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
  253. # [22:52] <@tbsaunde> dj_dij: yeah, that's possible
  254. # [22:54] <dj_dij> tbsaunde: k thanks i guess i must look for some other first bug then
  255. # [23:04] <@tbsaunde> dj_dij: yeah, please comment in the bug and say you can't reporduce
  256. # [23:06] <dj_dij> tbsaunde: ok done that
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  259. # Session Close: Sat Aug 30 00:00:00 2014

The end :)