/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2014-09-12 / end
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- # Session Start: Fri Sep 12 00:00:00 2014
- # Session Ident: #accessibility
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- # [01:21] <joanie> Is Jamie James Teh perchance?
- # [01:22] <Jamie> joanie: the very same. :)
- # [01:22] <joanie> Yo /me grins
- # [01:22] <joanie> hey so check this out:
- # [01:22] <joanie> Because of the rewriting I needed to do anyway in ORca
- # [01:22] <joanie> I just looked at what it would take to implement oldschool jaws-style one-object per line navigation
- # [01:22] <joanie> 4 lines of code
- # [01:23] <joanie> I shit thee not
- # [01:23] * Jamie grins
- # [01:23] <joanie> so I'm going to push it
- # [01:23] <Jamie> Don't do it! Don't do it! <laughs>
- # [01:23] <joanie> What do you call this in NVDA?
- # [01:23] <joanie> one NVDA user called in layout mode
- # [01:23] <joanie> but I don't see that in your docs
- # [01:23] <Jamie> We call the reverse behaviour (hat NVDA and Orca do by default and JAWS doesn't) screen layout
- # [01:23] <joanie> right
- # [01:24] <Jamie> So when you're doing one object per line, we say the user has screen layout disabled
- # [01:24] <joanie> got it
- # [01:24] <joanie> you have a keyboard shortcut to toggle it?
- # [01:24] <Jamie> Err, yes. NVDA+v. No, I don't remember why it's v
- # [01:24] <joanie> v is now verbosity due to clickable hell
- # [01:24] <Jamie> I mean, NVDA+s is speech mode, so I understand why we couldn't use that, but I'm not sure who came up with "v"
- # [01:25] * joanie shrugs
- # [01:25] <Jamie> Just be careful of blank lines. Our users often complain about pointless blank lines in non-screen layout. You may not be hit by that in your implementation, though
- # [01:26] <joanie> well, I still need to refine this a bit
- # [01:26] <Jamie> classic example: <a href="#">Hello</a> <a href="#">world</a>
- # [01:26] <joanie> I currently have the radio button on one line label on the next
- # [01:26] <Jamie> if you're not careful, you'll get one line for hello, another line with just a space for the space, and another line for world
- # [01:26] <joanie> but yeah, I have means to filter that out
- # [01:27] <joanie> maybe I should do that first
- # [01:27] <joanie> but the thing is, we're nearly in code freeze
- # [01:27] <joanie> and already in string freeze and gui freeze
- # [01:27] * Jamie grins
- # [01:27] <joanie> so I can push this to master
- # [01:27] <Jamie> don't give in to the temptation
- # [01:27] <joanie> I need to beg teams to bless putting it into stable
- # [01:27] <joanie> and my argument will be: look just 4 lines of code!
- # [01:28] <joanie> Users have demanded it!!
- # [01:28] <Jamie> hahaha.
- # [01:28] <Jamie> I wouldn't allow it if I were your release manager :)
- # [01:28] <joanie> Free Software sucks (says they) because Orca lacks these
- # [01:28] <joanie> I can commit the funtionality already
- # [01:28] <joanie> but users will have to edit a config file to enable it
- # [01:28] <joanie> users who lack the skills to do so!!! oh noes!
- # [01:28] * joanie grins
- # [01:28] <Jamie> We've gotten tighter and tighter about what we allow ina fter a freeze. been bitten too many times
- # [01:29] <joanie> this is a dead simple patch
- # [01:29] <joanie> two lines are a setting
- # [01:29] <joanie> one line is checking a setting
- # [01:29] <joanie> one line is doing an early return if the setting is true
- # [01:29] <joanie> that's it
- # [01:29] <Jamie> to the point where even for translations, I won't allow anything but the tiniest of very carefully reviewed changes once we go to rc
- # [01:29] * joanie nods
- # [01:30] <Jamie> yeah, if it's a hidden setting, that mitigates the risk somewhat
- # [01:30] <Jamie> if you tweak it, well, your loss if it breaks
- # [01:30] <joanie> no, this is going to work
- # [01:30] * Jamie chuckles
- # [01:30] <Jamie> watch for those blank lines :)
- # [01:30] <joanie> I perhaps should eliminate the spaces
- # [01:30] <joanie> and put radio button labels on the same line
- # [01:30] <joanie> just to be better than you
- # [01:30] <tbsaunde> joanie: Jamie have either of you guys seen cases of missing show / hide events? I'm finding some in e10s stuff
- # [01:31] <joanie> :P
- # [01:31] <Jamie> joanie: we do put labels on the same line I believe
- # [01:31] <Jamie> joanie: I can't remember the algorithm we use now
- # [01:31] <joanie> you told me in Toronto users had problems with radio buttons
- # [01:31] <joanie> I can do that already
- # [01:31] <Jamie> tbsaunde: I'm not sure. we tend ot rely more on textInserted/textRemoved.
- # [01:32] <joanie> ok, I'm going back to refining that
- # [01:32] <joanie> I have users to inspire to worship me
- # [01:32] <joanie> bwuahahahahaa
- # [01:32] <Jamie> joanie: no, I mean we render the label separately from the radio button, but not on a different line
- # [01:32] <joanie> we render it on the same line in the new (old) layout mode
- # [01:32] <tbsaunde> Jamie: huh, ok
- # [01:32] <joanie> in my four line patch we don't
- # [01:32] <Jamie> tbsaunde: any test cases?
- # [01:32] <joanie> but we can
- # [01:33] <joanie> anyhoo, I'm going to hack some more. Thanks for the info and tips!
- # [01:33] <tbsaunde> Jamie: nothing visible just asserts tripping when I visit google with my e10s patches
- # [01:33] <Jamie> joanie: scrap that, we do render labels on separate lines in non-screen layout
- # [01:34] <Jamie> well, we do if they have a <label>. I believe we render *text* on the same line, but anything that has an actual element gets pushed to a separate line
- # [01:34] <joanie> ha
- # [01:34] <joanie> yup
- # [01:34] <joanie> I'm going to filter this stuff out
- # [01:34] <Jamie> so <input type="radio"><label>foo</label> is separate lines, but <input type="radio">foo is not
- # [02:13] <joanie> Jamie: what if you have, say, links separated by space middle dot space, do you land on the intervening space because there's something there, or do you skip it because it's similar to punctuation?
- # [02:14] <Jamie> joanie: right or wrong, our rule isn't specific to space. it's specific to text that isn't within another element
- # [02:14] <Jamie> well, another accessible
- # [02:14] <joanie> but you said to watch out for space
- # [02:14] <joanie> which makes good sense
- # [02:14] <joanie> now I just added a stupid crap character to the space
- # [02:15] <joanie> or another example
- # [02:15] <joanie> <p>(<a href="link1">link</a>)(<a href="link2">another link</a>)</p>
- # [02:15] <joanie> the parens are not part of the link
- # [02:16] <joanie> what happens with NVDA?
- # [02:19] <Jamie> I just meant that spaces are the most obvious annoyance because it causes "blank" lines.
- # [02:20] <joanie> right, but as I'm testing in the wild, punctuation is annoying too
- # [02:20] <joanie> and I'm curious what you do.
- # [02:20] <Jamie> we read: (, link)(, another link)
- # [02:20] <Jamie> where commas are line breaks
- # [02:21] <joanie> so the right parens are part of the link "line" (object) in prsentation?
- # [02:21] <joanie> even though technically they are in the parent element?
- # [02:24] <Jamie> yes. what we promise is that each control that will be on a new line
- # [02:24] <Jamie> s/that //
- # [02:24] <Jamie> err, s/that will/will/
- # [02:24] <joanie> ok
- # [02:24] <joanie> makes sense
- # [02:24] <Jamie> well, it sort of makes sense
- # [02:24] <joanie> heh
- # [02:25] <Jamie> it's a bit of a hack really, but hey, it got rid of a lot of the blank lines users were complaining about (and trailing punctuation)
- # [02:25] * joanie nods
- # [02:25] <Jamie> and since I don't really care about non-screen layout, I'm happy if users are happy :)
- # [02:25] <joanie> that's why I'm doing it
- # [02:26] <joanie> one user said that in order to search for information about linux, he switches to windows
- # [02:26] <joanie> because you know orca only has layout mode
- # [02:26] <Jamie> btw, I think jaws would strip spaces but would render punctuation on separate lines, but I'm not certain of that; it's been a long time since I used JAWS
- # [02:26] <joanie> and that just sucks
- # [02:26] <joanie> Orca is currently doing something jawsy if my ancient memory is correct
- # [02:27] <joanie> I don't care enough to install windows though /me grins
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- # [12:07] <@firebot> vseerror@lehigh.edu changed the Resolution on bug 857319 from --- to DUPLICATE.
- # [12:07] <@firebot> vseerror@lehigh.edu changed the Status on bug 857319 from NEW to RESOLVED.
- # [12:07] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/857319 — DUPLICATE — crash in mozilla::a11y::sdnAccessible::Release
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- # [13:06] <@firebot> vseerror@lehigh.edu changed the Component on bug 1066539 from Disability Access to Disability Access APIs.
- # [13:06] <@firebot> vseerror@lehigh.edu changed the Product on bug 1066539 from Thunderbird to Core.
- # [13:06] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1066539 — NEW — crash in mozilla::a11y::DocManager::AddListeners(nsIDocument*, bool)
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- # [15:12] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Assignee on bug 1020039 from nobody@mozilla.org to surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
- # [15:12] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Resolution on bug 1020039 from --- to FIXED.
- # [15:12] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 1020039 from NEW to RESOLVED.
- # [15:12] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 1020039 from --- to mozilla35.
- # [15:12] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1020039 — FIXED, surkov.alexander — Intermittent relations/test_embeds.xul | Can't get accessible for [object XULElement]
- # [15:13] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Resolution on bug 1020039 from FIXED to ---.
- # [15:13] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 1020039 from RESOLVED to REOPENED.
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- # [15:47] <tbsaunde> surkov: so why don't you want to debug bug 1020039?
- # [15:47] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1020039 — REOPENED, surkov.alexander — Intermittent relations/test_embeds.xul | Can't get accessible for [object XULElement]
- # [15:47] <@surkov> tbsaunde: how?
- # [15:48] <@davidb> tbsaunde, don't fall for it :)
- # [15:48] <tbsaunde> surkov: depends on what the issue
- # [15:48] <tbsaunde> is
- # [15:48] <tbsaunde> davidb: I'm not going to I just want surkov to
- # [15:49] <@davidb> surkov, what does "opa opa sralslasya" mean?
- # [15:49] <@surkov> just phrase for some song
- # [15:49] <@davidb> heh
- # [15:50] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
- # [15:55] <@MarcoZ> Hi yzen! Any signs of when the patches will be aproved for 2.1? Any backchannel talk? :)
- # [15:55] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com requested needinfo from dbolter@mozilla.com on bug 1064877.
- # [15:55] <@yzen> MarcoZ no, my guess is that most of the approvers/reviewers where in SF this week and are now or about to travel back home
- # [15:55] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1064877 — ASSIGNED, surkov.alexander — dexpcomify Accessible
- # [15:55] <@yzen> so it's slow a little
- # [15:57] <@yzen> MarcoZ btw i have 1 more bug that will need to be uplifted, cards view went through a refresh and regressed so that
- # [15:57] <tbsaunde> davidb: what's needinfo about?
- # [15:58] <@MarcoZ> yzen: Understood! :)
- # [15:58] <@davidb> tbsaunde, was just thinking it would be nice to take this review off your hands, but i don't know who yet.
- # [15:58] <@yzen> MarcoZ that's what we get for not having ui tests, my fault
- # [15:58] <@davidb> tbsaunde, have you begun it?
- # [15:58] <tbsaunde> davidb: meh, its fine, I'm maybe half done now
- # [15:58] <@davidb> oh cool i'll remove the NI then thanks
- # [15:58] <tbsaunde> just as I wait for builds and stuff
- # [15:59] <@davidb> ack
- # [15:59] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com cancelled needinfo?(dbolter@mozilla.com) on bug 1064877.
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- # [16:06] <@MarcoZ> davidb: y: tbsaunde: surkov: eeejay: Meeting on Monday at the usual time. Invitation sent. Current agenda https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/Meetings/2014-09-15
- # [16:07] <@MarcoZ> + yzen! ^
- # [16:07] <@MarcoZ> Dang tab key
- # [16:07] <@davidb> great
- # [16:07] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested needinfo from georg.fritzsche@googlemail.com on bug 930005.
- # [16:07] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/930005 — NEW — Intermittent TEST-UNEXPECTED-FAIL | chrome://mochitests/content/a11y/accessible/tests/mochitest/even
- # [16:11] <@davidb> MarcoZ thanks, added e10s topic.
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- # [16:12] <@MarcoZ> davidb: kewl! :)
- # [16:17] <@yzen> MarcoZ this one bug 1010195 is still broken ?
- # [16:18] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1010195 — REOPENED — [AccessFu] Not possible to enter a SIM PIN on a FF OS phone
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- # [16:22] <@MarcoZ> yzen: No, this works now with the various keyboard and editing mode fixes. :)
- # [16:23] <@firebot> mzehe@mozilla.com changed the Resolution on bug 1010195 from --- to WORKSFORME.
- # [16:23] <@firebot> mzehe@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 1010195 from REOPENED to RESOLVED.
- # [16:25] <@davidb> surkov, when is there no window?
- # [16:26] <@firebot> georg.fritzsche@googlemail.com cancelled needinfo?(georg.fritzsche@googlemail.com) on bug 930005.
- # [16:26] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/930005 — NEW — Intermittent TEST-UNEXPECTED-FAIL | chrome://mochitests/content/a11y/accessible/tests/mochitest/even
- # [16:27] <@surkov> davidb: when it crashes, that’s basically all I know, all methods having Get prefix don’t guarantee you to return not null result. I don’t have clue what TB makes speical to create a document with no window and don’t have good ideas how to figure that out
- # [16:28] <@surkov> what we get here with the patch: no crash and possibly some prolbems with a11y scrolling handling
- # [16:28] <@surkov> if we have a problme then we will figure that out I think
- # [16:28] <@davidb> ok
- # [16:29] <tbsaunde> surkov: it seems to happen in firefox too according to comments
- # [16:30] <@surkov> ok
- # [16:30] <tbsaunde> you should at least look at addons and stuff and see if there's some sort of corrilation
- # [16:30] <tbsaunde> but I'd really rather you tried to figure out what's happening
- # [16:30] <@surkov> I know
- # [16:31] <@davidb> yeah there is always cost in wallpapering
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- # [16:32] <@yzen> MarcoZ a ux question for you
- # [16:32] <@yzen> MarcoZ not sure if you noticed, but there is no more notifications icon/icon-count in the status bar anymore
- # [16:33] <@yzen> it was replaced with an ambient notification bar above the status bar (about 1-2px wide) that indicates that the's a notification
- # [16:33] <@yzen> so the issue is, it's a super small target for EBT
- # [16:34] <tbsaunde> surkov: so why don't you investigate?
- # [16:34] <@surkov> tbsaunde: I think I have too much on my plate
- # [16:35] <@davidb> are you guys talking about 1066539 ?
- # [16:35] <@davidb> (i was)
- # [16:35] <tbsaunde> davidb: yes
- # [16:35] <tbsaunde> surkov: like what?
- # [16:36] <@surkov> davidb: yep
- # [16:36] <@surkov> tbsaunde: like bug 1066539
- # [16:36] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1066539 — NEW — crash in mozilla::a11y::DocManager::AddListeners(nsIDocument*, bool)
- # [16:37] <@davidb> surkov that is the same bug :)
- # [16:37] <@surkov> I know but it is
- # [16:37] <@MarcoZ> yzen: Yes, but it would still be accessible via swipe order.
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- # [16:38] <@MarcoZ> yzen: We should definitely indicate that there is a notification.
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- # [16:38] <@yzen> MarcoZ yes
- # [16:38] <@MarcoZ> yzen: We should definitely indicate that there are notifications, if there are any.
- # [16:38] <@yzen> MarcoZ it is also a first item that the screen reader focuses on usually
- # [16:38] * @MarcoZ nods.
- # [16:39] <@yzen> MarcoZ we can only access them via the utility tray afaik
- # [16:41] <tbsaunde> surkov: huh?
- # [16:43] <@yzen> MarcoZ so my thinking was to describeby the status bar with the notification indicator and actually hide it ?
- # [16:43] <@yzen> like hide it from the screen reader
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- # [16:45] <@MarcoZ> yzen: How would you describe it in the status bar?
- # [16:46] <@yzen> well the statusbar is a list of icons, if it was describedby notification indicator it would sound like : "battery 90% lastitem Statusbar one notification available"
- # [16:47] <@yzen> or "battery 90% lastitem Statusbar one update available"
- # [16:50] <tbsaunde> surkov: I still don't see what's so important
- # [16:54] <@yzen> MarcoZ thoughts ^ ?
- # [16:54] <@surkov> tbsaunde: I don’t really want to argue on bug priorites now but if you think this is something we need to discuss then we can do that on ongoing team meeting or in other format. Also I think you are always free to investigate this bug more if you want.
- # [16:55] <@MarcoZ> yzen: Sorry, was busy filing another bug I just found. Yes, this sounds OK to me!
- # [16:55] <@MarcoZ> If we don't know what kind of notification, keep it general, e. g. say "notification", not "update".
- # [16:55] <@yzen> ok ill try it out and see if it feels right, MarcoZ
- # [16:55] <@yzen> MarcoZ ack
- # [16:56] <@MarcoZ> yzen: Fantastic! Also, the keyboard collected bug 1066654 some time ago. Don't know exactly when, but should be easy to find.
- # [16:56] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1066654 — NEW — Accessibility: Shift key is always indicated as pressed to the screen reader even when it isn't
- # [17:01] <@MarcoZ> yzen: BTW I have Master on my ZTE Open C, and 2.1 on my Flame, and the status bar again works great on Master! Can't wait till this lands! Good job!
- # [17:05] <tbsaunde> surkov: well, I'm being to not do that, but I'd probably not take that patch without more investigation
- # [17:10] <@davidb> tbsaunde, do you think bz could tell us when we can't expect a window?
- # [17:11] <@davidb> i'm really rusty here
- # [17:11] <@yzen> MarcoZ \o/
- # [17:12] <tbsaunde> davidb: maybe?
- # [17:12] <@davidb> i'll ask him
- # [17:13] <@surkov> tbsaunde: we have a crash, that’s a worse thing that can be. I’m pretty fine to keep that bug open if you want but I’d like to have null check landed (having assertion is also fine), at least until the bug has assignee who will to find correct solution. I hope that’s fair.
- # [17:15] <tbsaunde> I'm saying you should try and figure out why it crashes before preposing any fix
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- # [17:18] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com requested needinfo from bzbarsky@mit.edu on bug 1066539.
- # [17:18] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1066539 — NEW — crash in mozilla::a11y::DocManager::AddListeners(nsIDocument*, bool)
- # [17:20] <@firebot> ehsan.akhgari@gmail.com cancelled needinfo?(bzbarsky@mit.edu) on bug 1066539.
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- # [18:59] <@firebot> cpeterson@mozilla.com requested needinfo from felipc@gmail.com on bug 1047076.
- # [18:59] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1047076 — NEW, wmccloskey — Disable e10s on Nightly if Accessibility is enabled
- # [19:11] <@firebot> felipc@gmail.com cancelled needinfo?(felipc@gmail.com) on bug 1047076.
- # [19:11] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1047076 — NEW, wmccloskey — Disable e10s on Nightly if Accessibility is enabled
- # [19:23] * agibson is now known as agibson|afk
- # [19:28] <tbsaunde> surkov: is there some reason for where you add MOZ_OVERRIDE?
- # [19:29] <@surkov> tbsaunde: finally just clean up as I go, it was a part of some const changes I reverted
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- # [19:37] <tbsaunde> surkov: ah
- # [19:37] <tbsaunde> just funny some thing become override and looks sort of random
- # [19:38] <@surkov> yeah
- # [19:38] <tbsaunde> it'd be nice if someone went around marking stuff final too
- # [19:38] <@surkov> at some point I just released the patch is getting too large
- # [19:38] <@surkov> yeah, one day I think we’ll do that
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- # [19:39] <tbsaunde> yeah, I'd prefer this patch was broken up
- # [19:39] <@surkov> I bet
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- # [19:40] <@surkov> I don’t like large patches also but during cleaning up it’s hard to find stop point sometimes
- # [19:40] <@surkov> becuase things goes in circle
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- # [20:37] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested needinfo from wchen@mozilla.com on bug 1040735.
- # [20:37] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1040735 — ASSIGNED, surkov.alexander — crash in mozilla::a11y::Accessible::BindToParent(mozilla::a11y::Accessible*, unsigned int)
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- # [21:56] <tbsaunde> surkov: we should finish making xpidl interfaces builtinclass someday
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- # Session Close: Fri Sep 12 22:53:52 2014
- #
- # Session Start: Fri Sep 12 22:53:53 2014
- # Session Ident: #accessibility
- # [22:53] * Disconnected
- # [22:54] * Attempting to rejoin channel #accessibility
- # [22:54] * Rejoined channel #accessibility
- # [22:54] * Topic is 'build the web for everyone | http://is.gd/93saA4'
- # [22:54] * Set by davidb on Tue Aug 05 15:36:31
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- # [23:40] <@firebot> gijskruitbosch+bugs@gmail.com changed the Component on bug 1066165 from Untriaged to Disability Access.
- # [23:40] <@firebot> gijskruitbosch+bugs@gmail.com requested needinfo from dbolter@mozilla.com on bug 1066165.
- # [23:40] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1066165 — UNCONFIRMED — After using accessibility tool FF31 freezes while modifying the DOM with huge elements
- # Session Close: Sat Sep 13 00:00:00 2014
The end :)