/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2014-09-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Sep 26 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
  3. # [00:03] * Quits: @davidb (davidb@moz-1D9E6541.dsl.bell.ca) (Quit: Blah blah blah)
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  5. # [00:41] <Jamie> eeejay: ping?
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  11. # [03:13] <eeejay> Jamie, hey
  12. # [03:22] <Jamie> eeejay: hi! :) how're things?
  13. # [03:22] <eeejay> Jamie, i have a cold! but besides that, pretty well
  14. # [03:23] <Jamie> eeejay: eek. yuck.
  15. # [03:23] <Jamie> eeejay: I have a philosophical touch screen access question for you if you don't mind
  16. # [03:23] <eeejay> Jamie, I love philosophy, shoot.
  17. # [03:24] <Jamie> eeejay: one of the principles that you stubbornly refuse to budge on (teasing) is ... forgotten what you call it... but error recovery; i.e. left and right flicks should always do what they normally do because otherwise a user can't "get out" if they screw up
  18. # [03:25] <eeejay> Jamie, yes. I call it the don't fuck with the user rule
  19. # [03:25] <Jamie> hahaha
  20. # [03:25] <eeejay> or "everybody needs a safe word"
  21. # [03:25] <Jamie> now, my argument is that this means you can never have an efficient user interface because you can never replace those gestures, which means you have to do contortions to do anything "power user"ish
  22. # [03:25] <Jamie> my argument is that eventually, even a novice user will stop being novice and want true efficiency
  23. # [03:26] <Jamie> so, here's my question: you don't want to fuck with the user, but what if you make fucking with the user configurable?
  24. # [03:26] <Jamie> as in... okay dude, so we won't mess with your flicks, but if you configure this "allow mode switching" setting, you've made that choice and you are aware of the consequences (with appropriate warnings of course)
  25. # [03:28] <eeejay> Jamie, depends how easy it is to misconfigure it
  26. # [03:28] <Jamie> that gives you the best of both worlds: novice users don't configure things, but power users might
  27. # [03:28] <eeejay> Jamie, if it is a one-click addon that reconfigures your screen reader, then that is bad
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  29. # [03:29] <eeejay> Jamie, i think there is a huge space of gestures to explore that can be modal.
  30. # [03:30] <eeejay> Jamie, my principal only applies to swipe left/right and double tap
  31. # [03:30] * Quits: yliao (yliao@moz-E37F359D.hinet-ip.hinet.net) (Client exited)
  32. # [03:30] <Jamie> use case: braille input, which I discussed on my blog about 5 years ago and which iOS 8 now implements
  33. # [03:31] <Jamie> you cannot allow left and right swipes and double taps to work in a braille entry mode
  34. # [03:31] <eeejay> why not?
  35. # [03:32] <Jamie> two reasons: 1. because you need left and right swipes for things like backspace and entering spaces; and 2. because double tapping could be, say, "aa"
  36. # [03:33] <eeejay> not sure about example 2, but for case 1, you mean swiping should move the text cursor?
  37. # [03:34] <eeejay> could you point me at docs for this new ios feature?
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  39. # [03:34] <Jamie> eeejay: flick right inserts a space; flick left backspaces
  40. # [03:35] <Jamie> there's not really enough space to allow thumb to do space on an iPhone screen
  41. # [03:35] <Jamie> flick up and down moves between autocorrect suggestions
  42. # [03:35] <eeejay> Jamie, yeah. i guess i would avoid that. especially since flicking left actually erases, that seems very bad
  43. # [03:35] <Jamie> right, but you've just killed a feature that makes me a huge deal more efficient on iOS
  44. # [03:36] <eeejay> Jamie, i though they only introduced this in ios 8?
  45. # [03:36] <Jamie> This is the real problem. Your approach is nice for new users, but it means i can never be efficient and thus I will use the device less
  46. # [03:36] <Jamie> they did
  47. # [03:36] <Jamie> my point is that I can now type a huge deal faster than I could before
  48. # [03:37] <Jamie> and it makes me more likely to use iOS for things I would never have dreamed of using it for before
  49. # [03:37] <eeejay> Jamie, so you lived with VO for x many years, and last month they introduced a critical feature you can't do without?
  50. # [03:37] <eeejay> (just trolling here)
  51. # [03:37] <Jamie> no, it's a fair troll
  52. # [03:38] <eeejay> Jamie, so this happens only when a braille display is connected, or always?
  53. # [03:38] <Jamie> the point is that previously, I used iOS a lot, but I hated typing tweets, message,s etc. while out. I just wouldn't bother or I'd call people
  54. # [03:39] <Jamie> in contrast, on my holiday, I spent a lot of time faffing about on social media and was quite happy to do so, just using the screen
  55. # [03:39] <Jamie> it does no trequire a braille display
  56. # [03:40] <eeejay> Jamie, i am trying to test this right now
  57. # [03:40] <Jamie> you access it via the rotor, but it is *not* enabled by default. you have ot add it to the rotor
  58. # [03:40] <Jamie> trying to find the docs
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  60. # [03:41] <eeejay> Jamie, can't get to it, what is it "edit"?
  61. # [03:41] <Jamie> no; you have to enable braille screen input in your VO rotor
  62. # [03:41] <Jamie> settings->general->accessibility->voiceover->rotor
  63. # [03:43] <Jamie> eeejay: anyway, this goes beyond just braille. this just led me to ask you your thoughts on configurable "fuck with the user" paradigms
  64. # [03:43] <Jamie> eeejay: because, yes, you can do non-modal stuff and get creative about it, but eventually, efficiency will suffer
  65. # [03:43] <Jamie> even my hold one finger and do flicks for text navigation... eventually, that gets annoying and requires finger contortions
  66. # [03:44] <eeejay> Jamie, indeed
  67. # [03:44] <Jamie> so yeah, great because it doesn't confuse novice users, but for efficiency, it's a big fail. this is why apple eventually introduced quick nav mode: because holding down two keys constantly for every navigation key you press is just a total PITA
  68. # [03:46] <Jamie> eeejay: so anyway, was just curious: does making it configurable make you feel better or are you still fairly against modal stuff?
  69. # [03:47] <eeejay> Jamie, i think a configuration is a mode that is even harder to exit, so i am wary of that
  70. # [03:48] <Jamie> err, but that disqualifies the entire settings app on your phone
  71. # [03:48] <eeejay> Jamie, even if the rule needs bending, i think that having swipe left/right alter content is a huge mistake
  72. # [03:48] <eeejay> Jamie, i mean configuring left/right behavior
  73. # [03:49] <Jamie> interesting.
  74. # [03:50] <Jamie> so here's a question for you: do you consider the "edit mode" in iOS (where icons start wiggling) to be a mistake?
  75. # [03:50] <Jamie> that's "modal" by your definition
  76. # [03:50] <eeejay> Jamie, if a user toggles some advanced mode by mistake, and then finds themselves deleting content when they want to go to the previous item, but then having it work perfectly fine at other times (when not editing text), then there are two layers of modes the user needs to be cognizant of.
  77. # [03:50] <Jamie> eeejay: but they can't toggle that mode without configuring to allow it
  78. # [03:50] <Jamie> once they configure, they are *aware* that some action might toggle a mode
  79. # [03:51] <Jamie> e.g. braille input must be enabled in rotor before it can be accessed
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  81. # [03:52] <eeejay> Jamie, i'm totally fine with all that. as long as there are a core set of gestures that never change :)
  82. # [03:53] <Jamie> okay. which means you can never have true efficiency or braille input
  83. # [03:53] <eeejay> Jamie, i think there are ways to be creative here
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  85. # [03:54] <Jamie> there are, but can you do it without making it less efficient is ultimately the question
  86. # [03:54] <Jamie> text navigation is another example. I can be creative: hold one finger and flick around
  87. # [03:54] <eeejay> Jamie, also, i could see swiping moving the caret, because that could make sense in this mental model. when the user moves the caret to the left past position 0, it goes to the net item
  88. # [03:54] <Jamie> but eventually, hodling that one finger all the time is just downright annoying, slows me down, makes it harder to do it one handed, etc.
  89. # [03:55] <Jamie> eeejay: right, except touching anywhere on the screen was another of your core gestures. can't do that with braille
  90. # [03:55] <eeejay> Jamie, when in this mode, how do you get to the next field?
  91. # [03:55] <Jamie> you exit the mode
  92. # [03:55] <eeejay> Jamie, seems inefficient to me :)
  93. # [03:56] <Jamie> it is. but efficiency is measured in relative terms
  94. # [03:56] <Jamie> I spend more time typing when I'm editing than I do moving between fields. If I were only typing one character per field, I wouldn't use it
  95. # [03:56] <Jamie> as opposed ot typing 200 chars, moving to next field and typing 200 more
  96. # [03:57] <Jamie> however, one area I do disagree with Apple on is that you can't do cursor navigation while in braille entry mode. taht is just irritating, since I often do want to move to the previous word or the like
  97. # [03:58] <eeejay> hm
  98. # [03:58] <Jamie> anyway, I guess we still agree to disagree... was just curious as to your thoughts
  99. # [03:59] <Jamie> I'm still wondering about your thoughts on the edit mode in iOS though, since that is a mode for sighted users
  100. # [03:59] <Jamie> this means we'll never have efficient navigation or braille entry in firefoxOS> <sighs> :)
  101. # [03:59] <eeejay> :)
  102. # [04:00] <eeejay> i guess we will find out when we implement
  103. # [04:00] <eeejay> i need to explore all this ios stuff you mention though
  104. # [04:00] <Jamie> I think the problem I have here is that i totally agree with you that we need to make things easier for novice users, but on the flip side, I'm a user who uses this almost every hour of every day
  105. # [04:01] <Jamie> It *has* to be efficient for me as a proficient user
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  107. # [04:01] <Jamie> right now, it's still far easier for me to browse the web or do serious editing on my PC than it is in iOS
  108. # [04:01] <Jamie> braille entry gets me a huge way further
  109. # [04:01] <Jamie> but navigating on the web is still fairly painful; left and right flicks between elements is just stupidly inefficient
  110. # [04:01] <eeejay> Jamie, do you mean braille chording on the screen?
  111. # [04:02] <eeejay> is that what i am missing?
  112. # [04:02] <Jamie> braille cording, yes, plus the ability to space and backspace, etc.
  113. # [04:04] <Jamie> eeejay: http://help.apple.com/iphone/8/#/iph10366cc30
  114. # [04:08] <Jamie> err, chording, not cording :)
  115. # [04:11] <Jamie> sidenote: the a11y implementation of that iPhone web user guide is weird
  116. # [04:11] <Jamie> aria documents within applications within documents and tree views with links instead of tree view items...
  117. # [04:12] <Jamie> even iOS doesn't cope with it properly
  118. # [04:12] <eeejay> Jamie, hm. doesn't seem as horrible as i thought
  119. # [04:13] <eeejay> but i still think its a problem
  120. # [04:13] <Jamie> why not as horrible?
  121. # [04:13] <Jamie> as in... why did it seem more horrible before
  122. # [04:36] <eeejay> Jamie, because i was imagining tha every time you activated an entry, it would switch to this mode, when really, it is a chording mode that you need to get into
  123. # [04:37] <Jamie> oh, right, got it
  124. # [04:37] <eeejay> Jamie, the other advantage ios has is that there is a physical home button
  125. # [04:37] <Jamie> nothing I'm suggesting is modes taht enter automatically
  126. # [04:37] <Jamie> I mean explicit switching
  127. # [04:37] <Jamie> right, but you could get around that by having the soft home button always work
  128. # [04:37] <eeejay> if it were android, with a soft home button that you can't get to, it would be scarier
  129. # [04:37] <eeejay> true
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  203. # [13:22] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Resolution on bug 1069877 from --- to FIXED.
  204. # [13:22] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 1069877 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  205. # [13:22] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 1069877 from --- to mozilla35.
  206. # [13:22] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1069877 — FIXED, yzenevich@mozilla.com — [AccessFu] Entering SIM PIN broken, focus gets taken from password entry field
  207. # [13:22] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Resolution on bug 1072305 from --- to FIXED.
  208. # [13:22] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 1072305 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  209. # [13:22] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 1072305 from --- to mozilla35.
  210. # [13:23] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1072305 — FIXED, yzenevich@mozilla.com — [AccessFu] Improve grid traversal with the screen reader.
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  238. # [17:19] <SteveF> you guys blazing the html5 acc trails and chrome follows https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=323161
  239. # [17:22] <@yzen> SteveF :)
  240. # [17:24] * icaaq is now known as icaaq|afk
  241. # [17:32] <slee> SteveF: so Google also do IA2 - yay!
  242. # [17:33] <SteveF> yeah they do, uch of chrome acc is copy of what firefox does, good for interop :-)
  243. # [17:36] <slee> eeejay: how's the child doing? :-P
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  270. # [21:10] <@yzen> eeejay ping
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  274. # [21:46] <eeejay> yzen, hey
  275. # [21:57] <@yzen> eeejay nvm :)
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  291. # Session Close: Sat Sep 27 00:00:00 2014

The end :)