/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2014-12-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Dec 18 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  80. # [15:06] <Gijs> MarcoZ: ping?
  81. # [15:07] <Gijs> MarcoZ: I have a question about the search UI a11y story
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  84. # [15:18] <&MarcoZ> Gijs: Pong! What's up with it?
  85. # [15:23] <Gijs> MarcoZ: so right now, the buttons for the one-off searches get some kind of synthetic focus, ish
  86. # [15:23] <Gijs> MarcoZ: because we want all keypresses to still go to the inputfield, that's where the 'real' focus stays
  87. # [15:24] <Gijs> MarcoZ: what's the appropriate aria-markup to indicate stuff is changing when you switch between the different one-off search buttons?
  88. # [15:24] <Gijs> MarcoZ: is that even possible?
  89. # [15:24] <Gijs> (while keeping the 'real' focus on the inputbox)
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  92. # [15:35] <&MarcoZ> Gijs: That's a case for aria-activedescendant. Or at least we can experiment with that.
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  95. # [15:36] <&MarcoZ> Gijs: e. g. if keyboard focus is on the actual input, aria-activedescendant is not present. As soon as the user starts tabbing, aria-activedescendant is set on the input field with the value being the ID of the button that is the "active" button.
  96. # [15:36] <~davidb> heyo
  97. # [15:37] <&MarcoZ> Gijs: When tabbing cycles back to the input itself, e. g. none of the buttons has pseudo-focus, aria-activedescendant gets removed again.
  98. # [15:43] <Gijs> MarcoZ: makes perfect sense, thanks!
  99. # [15:43] <&MarcoZ> Gijs: Feel free to ask me to run with a certain patch if you have it. Or ask me to build with it myself, I can do that, too.
  100. # [15:43] <Gijs> MarcoZ: and sorry for the delay - listening to your podcast! It's really nice, thanks for doing one :)
  101. # [15:44] <Gijs> (I mean, not the first one, of course - but either way)
  102. # [15:44] <Gijs> *it's not the first one
  103. # [15:53] <&MarcoZ> Gijs: Glad you're enjoying it! :)
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  111. # [16:40] <joanie> surkov: davidb: I just learned something interesting from clown_mtg
  112. # [16:40] <~davidb> amazing
  113. # [16:40] <joanie> In particular, he says that the fix for https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1013584 doesn't actually expose those elements as if they were divs
  114. # [16:40] <@firebot> Bug 1013584 — FIXED, surkov.alexander@gmail.com — Children of tables and lists with role='presentation' should each be exposed as if they were div ele
  115. # [16:40] <joanie> at least not for ATK
  116. # [16:41] <joanie> in which case the bug I filed wasn't actually fixed
  117. # [16:41] <joanie> and the implementation is not correct
  118. # [16:41] <joanie> :(
  119. # [16:41] * ~davidb steps out of the way, rolls out the carpet for surkov
  120. # [16:41] <joanie> was that by design?
  121. # [16:41] <joanie> fortunately, wrt the AAMs, WebKitGtk's implementation is correct
  122. # [16:44] <@surkov> joanie: they just get an accessible and should have similar semantics with div, but they aren’t actual div. but what problem do we have?
  123. # [16:45] <joanie> if you expose a non-paragraph as a paragraph, Orca's navigation by paragraph will move to non-paragraphs
  124. # [16:45] <joanie> if you expose stuff as ROLE_TEXT, you're just plain wrong
  125. # [16:45] <joanie> ;)
  126. # [16:46] <joanie> I didn't file a bug asking for presentational children to be exposes as if they were divs (aka ROLE_SECTION) because I was bored
  127. # [16:46] <joanie> :)
  128. # [16:46] <joanie> so I'm curious as to why, given the stated expectations for ATK
  129. # [16:46] <joanie> the decision was made to do something different
  130. # [16:47] <joanie> in general -- let alone using paragraph (wrong) and text (really, really wrong)
  131. # [16:47] <@surkov> joanie: what is expected role?
  132. # [16:47] <joanie> SECTION
  133. # [16:47] <joanie> as stated in the bug
  134. # [16:47] <joanie> several times I think
  135. # [16:47] * joanie looks
  136. # [16:48] <joanie> btw, several times in that bug, I explicitly state why ROLE_TEXT is completely wrong
  137. # [16:48] <@surkov> mm, ok, joanie can you file a bug pls?
  138. # [16:48] <joanie> so if that really is the mapping, then it's just.... mind boggling to me
  139. # [16:48] <joanie> a new bug stating what?
  140. # [16:48] <@surkov> that we expose accessible iwth wrong role
  141. # [16:48] <joanie> that presentational children of lists and tables should be exposed as if they were divs
  142. # [16:49] <@surkov> is that the issue, right?
  143. # [16:49] <joanie> because the bug that I filed stated that
  144. # [16:49] <joanie> davidb (I think) repurposed it to not be specific to ATK
  145. # [16:49] <joanie> then everything I stated should not be done was done anyway
  146. # [16:49] <joanie> so I don't think we need a new bug filed
  147. # [16:50] <joanie> I think we need to reopen the old bug
  148. # [16:50] <joanie> and fix it correctly
  149. # [16:50] <joanie> but I'm not sure if you fixed it the way you did deliberately or not
  150. # [16:50] <@surkov> opening old bugs is not good for tracking
  151. # [16:50] <joanie> no?
  152. # [16:50] <joanie> ok, I'll clone the old bug
  153. # [16:51] <@surkov> I much prefer to have dependants and blcoking
  154. # [16:51] <@surkov> to keep things smaller
  155. # [16:51] <joanie> surkov: the old bug is the bug you are asking me to file :)
  156. # [16:51] <@surkov> joanie: from impl point of view it will never be a div
  157. # [16:51] <@surkov> it’s just terms
  158. # [16:51] <@surkov> the issue you want same role as div has
  159. # [16:51] <joanie> bug it's terms (or roles) that impact Orca
  160. # [16:51] <joanie> div is the generic block text element
  161. # [16:51] <@surkov> orca doesn’t deal with divs
  162. # [16:52] <@surkov> it deals with roles
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  164. # [16:52] <@surkov> so say that
  165. # [16:52] <joanie> well, ROLE_SECTION
  166. # [16:52] <@surkov> but not div
  167. # [16:52] * joanie sighs
  168. # [16:52] * joanie opens a new bug
  169. # [16:52] <@surkov> thanks :)
  170. # [16:54] <~davidb> i'll take blame here - I should have looked for a test with section children.
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  172. # [16:55] <SteveF> davidb: hi
  173. # [16:56] * clown_mtg is now known as clown
  174. # [16:56] <~davidb> hi SteveF
  175. # [16:56] <SteveF> davidb: what happened with moz discussion about getcomputedRole
  176. # [16:57] <SteveF> the pf action item on you seaid it was closed
  177. # [16:57] <~davidb> SteveF, i like it except just have a property not a method so element.computedRole, surkov still likes to explore a more complicated approach :)
  178. # [16:57] <SteveF> see blinks intent to implement https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!topic/blink-dev/WToTEn4lveY
  179. # [16:58] <~davidb> (complicated but powerful yet i can't see it happening)
  180. # [16:58] <~davidb> SteveF, yeah so they are going for properties - which i like. i haven't thought about label
  181. # [16:58] <~davidb> but seems reasonable
  182. # [16:59] <~davidb> I can't help but think I need surkov on board before I can truly 100% endorse it.
  183. # [16:59] <SteveF> ok what we don't have is any spec text for the feature, anybody here up for sketching it out?
  184. # [17:00] <SteveF> would like some point of reference for discussion
  185. # [17:00] <~davidb> i can review
  186. # [17:00] <~davidb> is DomenicM interested?
  187. # [17:00] <~davidb> or James
  188. # [17:00] <SteveF> if someone can write up soemthing simple i can add to spec somewhere
  189. # [17:01] <~davidb> can we wait until new year?
  190. # [17:01] <SteveF> deberybody appears interested but nobody has written it down :-)
  191. # [17:01] <SteveF> everybody
  192. # [17:01] <~davidb> is there anyone pushing?
  193. # [17:01] <SteveF> oh sure re new year
  194. # [17:01] <~davidb> ok cool
  195. # [17:01] <SteveF> I am pushing :-)
  196. # [17:02] <~davidb> no more importantly,... SteveF how old was that facebook pic with you chris mills etc?
  197. # [17:02] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 1113153 filed by jdiggs@igalia.com.
  198. # [17:02] <~davidb> no/now
  199. # [17:02] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1113153 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — [ATK] Children of tables and lists with role='presentation' should each be exposed with ATK_ROLE_SEC
  200. # [17:02] <SteveF> last night
  201. # [17:02] <~davidb> jealous
  202. # [17:03] <SteveF> btw davidb: i just donated to mozilla so now I won your ass ;-)
  203. # [17:03] <SteveF> won/own
  204. # [17:03] <SteveF> yeah it was a nice night
  205. # [17:04] <~davidb> lol
  206. # [17:04] <~davidb> thank you!
  207. # [17:04] <~davidb> I'm sorry there is no tax receipt for anywhere except US right now
  208. # [17:05] <~davidb> MarcoZ, NDA... sigh (re email)
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  211. # [17:11] <SteveF> surkov: can you have a think and feedback on the intent to implement https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!topic/blink-dev/WToTEn4lveY ?
  212. # [17:12] <@surkov> SteveF: in general I don’t like this approach at all
  213. # [17:12] <@surkov> and I’m not sure I’m aware of use case
  214. # [17:13] <SteveF> surkov: ok so can you propose an alternative?
  215. # [17:13] <@surkov> let’s start from the use case
  216. # [17:13] <@surkov> I’m not sure what problem we want to solve
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  218. # [17:17] <@surkov> SteveF: ^
  219. # [17:17] <~davidb> SteveF, the question is about why? not how.
  220. # [17:18] <~davidb> (e.g. easier testing etc)
  221. # [17:18] <~davidb> (webby AT)
  222. # [17:18] <SteveF> surkov: yeah need james etal to supply use cases
  223. # [17:18] <~davidb> I'm also curious about "who" is driving this
  224. # [17:19] <SteveF> james craig, alice/dominic and domenic denicola its seems
  225. # [17:19] <@surkov> SteveF: ok, maybe it makese sene to run thread to figure out use cases
  226. # [17:20] <Domenic> Testing is the biggest UC I can think of off the top of my head. Especially for custom elements.
  227. # [17:22] <~davidb> gecko currently doesn't have the ability to shutdown our engine, once started... so there is a lot of potential work for us.
  228. # [17:22] <~davidb> (a11y engine)
  229. # [17:23] <@surkov> if testing is the use case then we need to end up with full API, these two methods aren’t helpful
  230. # [17:25] <Domenic> What is "full API" and why aren't these methods subsets of it
  231. # [17:26] <SteveF> surkov: have started thread asking for use cases :-) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2014Dec/0022.html
  232. # [17:27] <~davidb> excellent
  233. # [17:28] <@surkov> SteveF: thanks!
  234. # [17:29] <@surkov> Domenic: if those methods are subset then basically Element should be extended by all IAccessible2 method and friends, that’s sort of weird
  235. # [17:29] <&MarcoZ> davidb: I saw that thingie re NDA. I opt for you to reply that Mozilla is all about open-source and we don't generally have NDA's, and we only sign them if absolutely necessary, and project-based, not per se up front.
  236. # [17:30] <@surkov> and then you cannot even think of non DOM a11y
  237. # [17:30] <&MarcoZ> davidb: And you because you're the official team lead. ;)
  238. # [17:30] <@surkov> like if you want to test list item then you cannot test its bullet because it may not have DOM
  239. # [17:30] <@surkov> thus I think we should have something separate from Element
  240. # [17:30] <Domenic> Hmm
  241. # [17:33] <Domenic> Well my interest is in being able to construct and test custom elements that appear to a11y tech the same as built-in elements. So e.g. for list item I'd envision a shadow DOM with the bullet, with the bullet having its own stuff.
  242. # [17:33] <~davidb> MarcoZ, agreed. I replied with something similar.
  243. # [17:35] <&MarcoZ> davidb: Just saw it.
  244. # [17:36] * davidb is now known as davidb|afk
  245. # [17:39] <tbsaunde> Domenic: why is it important to be able to test your element works using js?
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  248. # [17:50] * SteveF really wish PF would get with the program so its mailing lists/tracker could be fully public and used for discussion :-(
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  258. # [18:46] <~davidb> SteveF++
  259. # [18:49] * davidb is now known as davidb|afk
  260. # [18:53] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 1113210 filed by dkeeler@mozilla.com.
  261. # [18:53] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1113210 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — accessible/atk/AtkSocketAccessible.cpp: unused function 'mai_atk_socket_get_instance_private'
  262. # [18:54] * davidb|afk is now known as davidb
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  269. # [19:22] <@yzen> eeejay hi
  270. # [19:23] <eeejay> hey
  271. # [19:23] <@yzen> eeejay remember we used to have Gip failures for gaia because of accessibility being always on ?
  272. # [19:27] * Gijs_away is now known as Gijs
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  274. # [19:29] <eeejay> brb
  275. # [19:31] <tbsaunde> surkov: so, sometimes CacheChilrenInSubtree called from ProcessContentInsertions() can cause accessibles to be added to the tree without show events. any how good ideas on how to fix that?
  276. # [19:32] <@surkov> tbsaunde: not sure, file a bug describing the problem?
  277. # [19:35] <tbsaunde> surkov: ok, let me understand why CacheChildrenInSubtree does this
  278. # [19:35] <tbsaunde> (yet again) I'm so sick of dealing with this
  279. # [19:36] <@surkov> right, usually these are tricky problems
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  288. # [20:33] <eeejay> yzen: sotty. yes
  289. # [20:33] <eeejay> sorry
  290. # [20:34] <@yzen> eeejay so somehow im getting some very crazy failures (not im mine, nor in marionette unit test) because i m creating an accessible retreival
  291. # [20:34] <eeejay> yzen: hm.
  292. # [20:36] <@yzen> https://treeherder.allizom.org/ui/#/jobs?repo=mozilla-inbound&revision=eb6428c5e590
  293. # [20:43] * davidb is now known as davidb|afk
  294. # [20:51] * davidb|afk is now known as davidb
  295. # [20:57] <eeejay> yzen: which failures, specifically?
  296. # [20:57] * davidb is now known as davidb|afk
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  298. # [20:57] * davidb|afk is now known as davidb
  299. # [20:58] <@yzen> the web-platform ones for example
  300. # [20:58] <@yzen> so if get the accessible retrieval lazily they will pass
  301. # [20:58] <@yzen> W(...)
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  310. # [21:33] <~davidb> tbsaunde, hate to distract ya but do you have any ideas about bug 1113210?
  311. # [21:33] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1113210 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — accessible/atk/AtkSocketAccessible.cpp: unused function 'mai_atk_socket_get_instance_private'
  312. # [21:38] <tbsaunde> davidb: I thought I commented
  313. # [21:39] <~davidb> tbsaunde, ah then i guess we take the patch?
  314. # [21:40] <tbsaunde> davidb: didn't see the patch, I can review in a bit
  315. # [21:40] <~davidb> ok i'll bump it to you
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  318. # [22:01] <tbsaunde> moveable rr recordings would be sweet right about now
  319. # [22:04] * Quits: agibson (agibson@moz-j04gi9.cable.virginm.net) (Quit: )
  320. # [22:08] <tbsaunde> surkov: have a few minutes to see if you can reproduce something?
  321. # [22:09] <@surkov> sure, what do I need for that?
  322. # [22:10] <tbsaunde> surkov: I think just opening google with a debugger open
  323. # [22:11] <tbsaunde> I'm seeing ProcessContentInserted() called with an array of one element which is a br in a div in a html input and when its called for that it creates an accessible from CacheChildrenInsubtree
  324. # [22:13] <@surkov> ok, next?
  325. # [22:13] * icaaq|afk is now known as icaaq
  326. # [22:14] <tbsaunde> surkov: you see that too?
  327. # [22:15] <@surkov> tbsaunde: I didn’t try but that sounds reasoable, what’s wrong do you see in that?
  328. # [22:16] <@surkov> ProcessContentInserted() is supposed to call CacheChildrenInsubtree to create a subtree
  329. # [22:16] <tbsaunde> surkov: well, it means accessibles are created and added to subtree, but there's no show event
  330. # [22:16] <@surkov> UpdateTree should take care of it
  331. # [22:16] <@surkov> is that CacheChildrenInsubtree called from UpdateTree()?
  332. # [22:16] <tbsaunde> surkov: should all accessible creation happen through UpdateTree() ?
  333. # [22:17] <tbsaunde> surkov: no, directly
  334. # [22:17] <@surkov> oh, that one
  335. # [22:18] <@surkov> and that UpdateTree() fails to handle that?
  336. # [22:18] <tbsaunde> surkov: yeah, seems so
  337. # [22:18] <@surkov> quite strange
  338. # [22:18] <tbsaunde> the inserted content UpdateTree is called for is just the br, but some random other div gets a new accessible
  339. # [22:20] <tbsaunde> surkov: can you into it please?
  340. # [22:20] <~davidb> is there an editable involved?
  341. # [22:20] <@surkov> I guess that div is a parent
  342. # [22:21] <@surkov> I guess I can take a look, can you file a bug?
  343. # [22:21] <tbsaunde> davidb: yeah, there's some inputs around
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  345. # [22:21] <tbsaunde> surkov: saying what exactly? just a c&p of this log?
  346. # [22:22] * Quits: SteveF (chatzilla@moz-80j6qs.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  347. # [22:22] <@surkov> describing a problem
  348. # [22:23] <~davidb> "accessibles are created and added to subtree, but there's no show event" + log
  349. # [22:23] <~davidb> plus details
  350. # [22:24] <tbsaunde> davidb: other than a non portable rr recording there isn't really more details
  351. # [22:25] <~davidb> ack
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  363. # Session Close: Fri Dec 19 00:00:00 2014

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