/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2009-04-15 / end

Options:

# Session Start: Wed Apr 15 00:00:00 2009
# Session Ident: #css
# [00:52] * Joins: billyjackass (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
# [00:57] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
# [01:00] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.111)
# [01:16] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
# [01:41] * billyjackass is now known as MikeSmith
# [01:43] * Quits: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.73) (Ping timeout)
# [01:49] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.74)
# [02:10] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [02:13] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
# [02:21] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [02:37] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
# [03:15] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Client exited)
# [03:24] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.111) (Connection reset by peer)
# [03:34] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
# [05:34] * Disconnected
# [05:34] * Attempting to rejoin channel #css
# [05:34] * Rejoined channel #css
# [05:34] * Topic is 'CSS Working Group Discussion -- http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
# [05:34] * Set by anne on Thu Mar 12 20:51:46
# [05:58] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
# [05:58] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Client exited)
# [05:58] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
# [06:42] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
# [07:55] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Client exited)
# [07:55] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
# [07:56] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Client exited)
# [08:05] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
# [11:01] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Ping timeout)
# [11:01] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
# [11:56] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [12:08] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
# [12:21] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.)
# [12:25] * Parts: anne (annevk@83.86.138.148)
# [12:37] * Joins: annevk (opera@83.86.138.148)
# [13:52] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Leaving)
# [14:11] * Joins: myakura (myakura@122.29.116.63)
# [14:53] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
# [15:01] * Joins: glazou (glazou@80.118.184.70)
# [15:13] * Joins: anne (annevk@83.86.138.148)
# [15:15] * Quits: glazou (glazou@80.118.184.70) (Client exited)
# [15:16] * Joins: glazou (glazou@80.118.184.70)
# [15:28] * Joins: glazou_ (glazou@80.118.184.70)
# [15:28] * Quits: glazou_ (glazou@80.118.184.70) (Quit: glazou_)
# [15:29] * Quits: glazou (glazou@80.118.184.70) (Ping timeout)
# [15:48] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.29.116.63) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [15:53] * Joins: myakura (myakura@122.29.116.63)
# [16:39] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Leaving)
# [16:41] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
# [16:49] <anne> Bert, how far are you on MQ?
# [16:50] <anne> Bert, is there something I could do to help because it does not seem to move at all...
# [16:53] <fantasai> 'morning Bert, Anne
# [16:55] <anne> good afternoon!
# [16:59] <Bert> Hi Anne, the Director's decision will be taken tomorrow afternoon.
# [16:59] <Bert> There is nothing for you to do.
# [16:59] <Bert> I noticed one error in the DoC: issue 22 is marked as diagreement, when in fact we accepted to change the text.
# [17:00] <Bert> But no need to change that.
# [17:00] <anne> are you sure?
# [17:01] <anne> I don't think the text is changed
# [17:01] <Bert> Good morning, Fantasai.
# [17:01] <Bert> The text says "If a media
# [17:01] <Bert> feature does not apply to the device where the UA is running,
# [17:01] <Bert> expressions involving the media feature will be false."
# [17:01] <Bert> Isn't that the answer to that issue?
# [17:01] <anne> that does not mean it's an error
# [17:02] <anne> the issue was about validation
# [17:09] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
# [17:29] <fantasai> Bert, did you add back the grammar and style sheet diffs against REC-CSS2?
# [17:30] <Bert> Didn't we say they should be removed?
# [17:31] <fantasai> I didn't :)
# [17:31] <fantasai> I think you were complaining about maintaining them
# [17:31] <fantasai> but now that you have a section for changes since the last CR pub
# [17:31] <fantasai> it shouldn't be a problem
# [17:31] <Bert> Yes you did :-) You said a diff of a diff was a bit too much for you :-)
# [17:31] <fantasai> oh
# [17:31] <fantasai> yes
# [17:32] <fantasai> but then you went and removed the diffs!!
# [17:32] <fantasai> the diff of a diff was the changes from the last CR
# [17:32] <fantasai> you're doing those with markup now
# [17:32] <fantasai> just like the errata
# [17:32] <Bert> No, they're still there. I regenerated them together with the new draft.
# [17:33] * fantasai doesn't see where
# [17:34] <Bert> From prev CR: http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css2-src/diffs-wd/cover.html
# [17:34] <Bert> From CSS2: http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css2-src/diffs-rec/cover.html
# [17:34] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [17:34] <fantasai> Bert: No, I meant in the Changes section
# [17:34] <fantasai> Bert: Also, you didn't edit Issue 68
# [17:35] <Bert> Hmm, I'm pretty sure I did. I copy-pasted a phrase about case-sensitive matching. Let me look...
# [17:36] <Bert> "The matching of C against the element's language value is performed case-insensitively."
# [17:38] * Joins: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19)
# [17:39] <fantasai> I guess that's ok
# [17:39] <fantasai> the sentence immediately before probably should have been swapped, too
# [17:39] <fantasai> because the Selectors version is more precise
# [17:41] <fantasai> Bert, you have an incredible number of typos in the edit at "except a hexadecimal digit"
# [17:41] <anne> I think we need another Last Call for Selectors or water down the case-sensitivity claims somehow
# [17:41] <anne> I.e. I think we should make the changes hsivonen and I have suggested
# [17:41] <fantasai> Bert, also applies to the Changes and Errata
# [17:43] <anne> (I fully realize that this sucks, but I guess that's what you get when you abandon HTML and its issues for a decade...)
# [17:43] <glazou> hello
# [17:44] <fantasai> Bert, and you deleted the illustration of the anonymous table box -- alex sent you the illustration yesterday, should be able to just put it in
# [17:45] <Bert> "incredible number" = "1"? I see s/of/or/
# [17:45] * Parts: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.)
# [17:45] * fantasai saw three
# [17:46] * fantasai looks again
# [17:46] <fantasai> Bert, isn't form feed two words?
# [17:46] <fantasai> Bert, also there should be a comma instead of an "or" after "hexadecimal digit"
# [17:46] <Bert> Oh, that's possible. Didn't check that.
# [17:47] <fantasai> yeah, Google corrects to form feed
# [17:47] <fantasai> and we jump from 250,000 hits to 755 million :)
# [17:47] <fantasai> correction, 85 million
# [17:48] <fantasai> Bert, for the list-style edit
# [17:48] <Bert> Didn't realize they were so popular, I thought they died out with line printers :-)
# [17:48] <fantasai> Bert, the normative prose and the example are split by an unrelated example
# [17:48] <fantasai> Bert, the proposed edits said to put them consecutively
# [17:49] <fantasai> Bert, so you either need to move the list-style: none example up, or move the normative prose down
# [17:50] <Bert> Re the table caption image: works for me...
# [17:52] * fantasai tries loading again
# [17:52] <fantasai> ok
# [17:52] <fantasai> I see it now :)
# [17:54] <fantasai> Bert, I'm not seeing the edits for Issue 100
# [17:55] <fantasai> or 102
# [17:56] <fantasai> or 103
# [17:56] <Bert> I didn't read David's proposal for 94 as asking to split the div.example, but I can do it that way.
# [17:59] <Bert> I see the change for 100: s/those properties/the background properties/ in 14.2
# [18:00] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
# [18:00] <fantasai> Bert, that was not the proposal
# [18:00] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
# [18:00] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/15-css-irc
# [18:00] <fantasai> Bert, the proposal was to copy wording directly from dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background
# [18:00] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190)
# [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [18:00] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
# [18:00] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [18:00] <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aaaa
# [18:01] <fantasai> Bert, your edits for issue 108 doesn't make counter-increment: none 3 foo 4; invalid
# [18:01] <plinss> zakim, +1.858.216 is me
# [18:01] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
# [18:01] <fantasai> Bert, it just says authors must not write that
# [18:01] * Parts: annevk (opera@83.86.138.148)
# [18:01] <fantasai> Bert, since it doesn't say it's invalid, there's no requirement that UAs ignore such declarations
# [18:01] <fantasai> also I'm not seeing that wording in a post to www-style...
# [18:01] <Bert> One at a time, I'm still looking at 102...
# [18:02] <Zakim> +David_Baron
# [18:02] <Zakim> -David_Baron
# [18:02] <Zakim> +David_Baron
# [18:02] * fantasai updates the issues list
# [18:02] <anne> Zakim, passcode?
# [18:02] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
# [18:03] <Zakim> +??P26
# [18:03] <anne> Zakim, ??P26 is me
# [18:03] <Zakim> +anne; got it
# [18:03] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Ping timeout)
# [18:04] <Zakim> +??P8
# [18:04] <Zakim> -??P8
# [18:05] <Zakim> +??P10
# [18:05] <Zakim> +Cesar_Acebal
# [18:05] <fantasai> Zakim, ??P10 is fantasai
# [18:05] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
# [18:05] * Joins: CesarAcebal (acebal@85.152.176.161)
# [18:06] <Zakim> +Bert
# [18:07] <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aabb
# [18:08] * Joins: howcome (howcome@80.203.30.11)
# [18:08] <dbaron> Zakim, aabb is howcome
# [18:08] <Zakim> +howcome; got it
# [18:08] <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:08] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, David_Baron, anne, fantasai, Cesar_Acebal, Bert, howcome
# [18:09] * Joins: emilyw (chatzilla@129.21.40.197)
# [18:09] * Joins: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19)
# [18:09] <Zakim> +??P31
# [18:10] <emilyw> zakim, P31 is me
# [18:10] <Zakim> sorry, emilyw, I do not recognize a party named 'P31'
# [18:10] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:10] * glazou has no telephone, landline or SIP, working at this moment, will try to join as soon as possible
# [18:10] <dbaron> Zakim, ??P31 is emilyw
# [18:10] <Zakim> +emilyw; got it
# [18:10] <emilyw> zakim, ??P31 is me
# [18:10] <Zakim> I already had ??P31 as emilyw, emilyw
# [18:10] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.111)
# [18:11] <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
# [18:11] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
# [18:11] <sylvaing> scribe:sylvain
# [18:11] <sylvaing> scribenick:sylvaing
# [18:12] <sylvaing> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0227.html
# [18:12] <sylvaing> Page counters
# [18:12] <sylvaing> hakon: this sounds complicated to me
# [18:12] <sylvaing> elika: nooooo
# [18:12] <Zakim> +Melinda_Grant
# [18:12] * Joins: melinda (melinda.gr@67.47.246.6)
# [18:13] <sylvaing> elika: defining interactions between counters does complicate things
# [18:13] <glazou> sorry, I'm totally unable to call, my phone and SIP are both dead at this time
# [18:13] <fantasai> Skype!
# [18:13] <sylvaing> melinda: if we don't define counter interactions, we can't handle certain scenarios....
# [18:13] <glazou> fantasai: I tried...
# [18:14] <fantasai> s/nooooo/agreed/
# [18:14] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.29.116.63) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [18:14] <sylvaing> melinda: there were issues with using section numbers in document headers
# [18:15] <sylvaing> fantasai: use cases that were not working without counter interactions: footnote counter that resets on every page but incremented by elements in the document
# [18:15] <fantasai> fantasai: no, that was covered already
# [18:15] <Zakim> + +95089aacc
# [18:16] <sylvaing> fantasai: also chapter-level counters that increase with every page in the chapter but reset at the next chapter (?)
# [18:16] <sylvaing> hakon: agree with the footnote scenario, that is important. not sure whether it needs to be so complex
# [18:17] <fantasai> dbaron: I'm surprised it's so simple, given how complicated some of the counters stuff is :)
# [18:17] <sylvaing> plinss: aside from general complexity, are there specific issues to be addressed ?
# [18:17] * glazou finally....
# [18:18] * Joins: glazou_ (glazou@82.247.96.19)
# [18:19] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Client exited)
# [18:20] <sylvaing> hakon: proposal: for any named counter, only allow interaction for the oldest one
# [18:21] <sylvaing> fantasai: counter name hiding is not the complex issue but the nesting of elements
# [18:21] <sylvaing> dbaron: I haven't looked at the proposal yet.
# [18:21] <fantasai> and multiple break points
# [18:21] <fantasai> at the same page break
# [18:21] <sylvaing> melinda: we should take a week to think about this further.
# [18:22] <sylvaing> fantasai: this proposal is actually the second iteration (after melinda shot down the first one)
# [18:23] <sylvaing> plinss: can we elaborate on how the proposal evolved to its current stage ?
# [18:23] <sylvaing> fantasai describes the proposal's rules
# [18:24] <sylvaing> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0227.html
# [18:25] <dbaron> It's worth being careful that the multiple break point rule doesn't kick in when an element crosses three pages.
# [18:25] <sylvaing> fantasai: first rule deals wit the general simple case; second rule with multiple break points
# [18:27] <sylvaing> fantasai: I would really like to hear from Michael Day(Antenna House) and David Baron on this proposal
# [18:28] <sylvaing> melinda: we have implementations that do what we want, the spec should match them
# [18:28] <sylvaing> fantasai: I would postpone this discussion until we hear back from AH and Prince
# [18:28] <sylvaing> hakon: sounds good
# [18:28] <fantasai> s/(/,/
# [18:28] <fantasai> s/)/,/
# [18:29] <sylvaing> hakon will ping Antenna House and Prince on the issue
# [18:29] <sylvaing> plinss: we can put this back on next week's agenda or the week after
# [18:29] <sylvaing> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0228.html
# [18:29] <sylvaing> Borders & Backgrounds
# [18:30] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0228.html
# [18:30] <sylvaing> fantasai: i'm waiting for feedback on most of these open issues
# [18:31] * dbaron wonders what issue 28 is
# [18:31] <sylvaing> fantasai: we can probably close issue 28 as no change
# [18:31] <sylvaing> fantasai: people seem to like color fallback so we may keep the feature but change the syntax
# [18:32] <sylvaing> fantasai: only two conclusions I have at this point
# [18:32] <sylvaing> hakon: I'd like to find a way to clip the center image
# [18:32] <sylvaing> fantasai: none of the authors that have given feedback so far think this is worth making border-image more complex
# [18:32] <sylvaing> hakon: but i'm an author too :)
# [18:33] * glazou_ does not think howcome is the average web author :-)
# [18:33] <sylvaing> hakon: this is so easy to do now; without it you need to do Photoshop work
# [18:33] <sylvaing> hakon to look at the proposal again...
# [18:34] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@192.150.10.200)
# [18:34] <sylvaing> bert: I prefer simplicity so I would not mind dropping the feature
# [18:35] <sylvaing> hakon: it is a slight increase in complexity that saves a frequent work item
# [18:35] <sylvaing> hakon: in fact, why not specify when you want to keep the center image i.e. the default should be to clip it
# [18:36] <fantasai> s/dropping/not adding/
# [18:36] <sylvaing> hakon: the default today is that unless you use a manual tool you're not really getting a border anymore
# [18:36] <sylvaing> bert: but how do you define the slicing of that image into 9 proper pieces without some editing work
# [18:37] <sylvaing> fantasai suggests a straw poll
# [18:37] <sylvaing> plinss: if you force the author to use transparency, you force them to choose a particular format
# [18:38] <sylvaing> plinss: another use case, the author want the same image to be used in two places, one of which includes the center but not the other
# [18:39] <sylvaing> hakon: this is not about graphical feature creep but the default behavior of this property
# [18:39] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:40] <sylvaing> plinss: i'm not hearing consensus yet
# [18:40] <sylvaing> hakon: we'll keep it as an issue
# [18:41] <fantasai> Topic: 2.1
# [18:41] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1
# [18:41] <sylvaing> column/page break discussion postponed so alexmog can participate
# [18:41] <fantasai> fantasai: several action items open on Saloni, can we get those reassigned?
# [18:42] <sylvaing> plinss: someone from msft ?
# [18:42] * sylvaing is alone in the room :)
# [18:43] <fantasai> ACTION: sylvain and arron to work on Saloni's 2.1 issues
# [18:43] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:43] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [18:43] <trackbot> Created ACTION-140 - And arron to work on Saloni's 2.1 issues [on Sylvain Galineau - due 2009-04-22].
# [18:43] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-112
# [18:43] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0099.html
# [18:43] <sylvaing> fantasai: I'd like to adopt dbaron's proposal; it's straightforward
# [18:44] <dbaron> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/tables.html#column-alignment
# [18:45] <sylvaing> bert: what is the exact issue ?
# [18:45] <sylvaing> dbaron: some people think this section means text-align applies to columns
# [18:46] <sylvaing> dbaron: the text does not specify which elements the property applies to and the title implies that it may apply to table columns
# [18:46] <sylvaing> fantasai: dbaron's proposal is to clearly disambiguate this
# [18:47] <sylvaing> bert: change seems ok. but is not absolutely necessary
# [18:47] <sylvaing> plinss, fantasai: editorial change. no conflict with implementations.
# [18:47] <sylvaing> plinss: objections ?
# [18:47] <sylvaing> szilles: no objection to the change, but not sure it fixes the problem
# [18:48] <sylvaing> plinss: we're not changing any behavior just clarifying interpretation
# [18:49] <sylvaing> RESOLVED: dbaron's proposal accepted (Issue-112)
# [18:49] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-113
# [18:50] <sylvaing> fantasai: we discussed this at the F2F
# [18:51] <sylvaing> I requested an && syntax operator to the values and units module and it was requested that we also add it to 2.1
# [18:51] <sylvaing> hakon does not like having this in CSS3 values and units; should it go into 2.1 syntax ?
# [18:52] <sylvaing> plinss: I have no issues with putting this in 2.1
# [18:52] <sylvaing> bert: it doesn't hurt 2.1 since it's not used
# [18:52] <sylvaing> bert: ...by 2.1
# [18:53] <sylvaing> melinda: would we be able to qualify it ?
# [18:53] <sylvaing> fantasai: editorial change, does not define a feature
# [18:53] <sylvaing> hakon: agree
# [18:54] <sylvaing> szilles: if this is an editorial change, a note clarifying that this notation is specified for completeness but unused
# [18:54] * Quits: emilyw (chatzilla@129.21.40.197) (Ping timeout)
# [18:54] <sylvaing> s/a note/i suggest a note
# [18:55] * Joins: emilyw (chatzilla@129.21.40.197)
# [18:56] <sylvaing> szilles: it would helpful to have examples to describe it
# [18:56] <sylvaing> s/helpful/be helpful
# [18:57] <sylvaing> RESOLVED: add && to list of value syntax operators (http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-113)
# [18:57] <sylvaing> szilles can do without the note but would like a clear usage example
# [18:59] <Zakim> -David_Baron
# [18:59] <sylvaing> discussion of 2.1 issues that need action items
# [18:59] <sylvaing> plinss: we should ask people to process their issues; assign action items to unassigned issues next week
# [19:00] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [19:00] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [19:00] <Zakim> -howcome
# [19:00] <Zakim> - +95089aacc
# [19:00] <Zakim> -plinss
# [19:00] <Zakim> -Cesar_Acebal
# [19:00] <Zakim> -anne
# [19:00] <Zakim> -emilyw
# [19:00] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [19:00] * Quits: glazou_ (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou_)
# [19:00] <Zakim> -Bert
# [19:01] <Zakim> -Melinda_Grant
# [19:01] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:01] * Quits: emilyw (chatzilla@129.21.40.197) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032608])
# [19:01] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.858.216.aaaa, plinss, David_Baron, anne, Cesar_Acebal, fantasai, Bert, +47.21.65.aabb, howcome, emilyw, sylvaing, Melinda_Grant, +95089aacc, SteveZ
# [19:02] * Parts: szilles (chatzilla@192.150.10.200)
# [19:06] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.111) (Ping timeout)
# [19:07] <fantasai> Bert, let me know when I should do another check on your edits
# [19:08] <fantasai> Bert, the issues list is current as of one hour ago
# [19:08] <fantasai> Bert, that is, I closed the issues you'd finished
# [19:09] <anne> fantasai, would it help if I draft proposed text changes for Selectors?
# [19:10] <fantasai> anne: uh, let me read hsivonen's message first :)
# [19:10] <Bert> Fantasai, I fixed 102 and 103.
# [19:10] * Parts: CesarAcebal (acebal@85.152.176.161)
# [19:13] <anne> fantasai, the overall idea is eliminating one magic list, defining exactly how matching works in HTML in a way that works for HTML+SVG+MathML too and is consistent with the plan for solving that in the DOM, and making HTML and XHTML more consistent; it also means that parsing a style sheet would no longer depend on whether it is associated with an HTML or XML document
# [19:13] <fantasai> parsing a style sheet is not supposed to depend on whether it's associated with an HTML or XML document
# [19:14] <fantasai> I don't see anything about the magic list in hsivonen's email
# [19:14] <anne> that's in my e-mail
# [19:14] <anne> parsing and matching is intertwined in impl
# [19:14] <fantasai> that's an issue for HTML to solve
# [19:14] <anne> but read matching where I said parsing if you wish
# [19:14] <fantasai> Selectors says it follows the case-sensitivity of the language
# [19:15] <fantasai> the whole DOM issue seems like a mess
# [19:15] <fantasai> anyway
# [19:15] <fantasai> I do not agree with Selectors requiring lower-casing of tag selectors
# [19:16] <anne> you keep two tag tokens around, one lowercase and one input case
# [19:16] <anne> and which you use depends on the namespace
# [19:16] <fantasai> I'm not talking about implementation details
# [19:16] <fantasai> I'm talking about the spec
# [19:16] <anne> you could phrase it as a matching requirement
# [19:16] <anne> which you use matters
# [19:16] <fantasai> which is intended to be general enough that it works for HTML4, HTML5, XML, and FooImaginaryLanguage
# [19:17] <anne> e.g. does {XHTML namespace, HTML} match html or not
# [19:17] <fantasai> no, because XML is case-sensitive
# [19:17] <anne> I'm not talking about XML
# [19:17] <fantasai> oh, in the HTML DOM?
# [19:18] <anne> Selectors match against a DOM
# [19:18] <anne> per HTML5 HTML elements end up in a namespace
# [19:18] <fantasai> that'll depend on whether the DOM considers it case-sensitive
# [19:18] <fantasai> is {XHTML namespace, html} the same type of element as {XHTML namespace, HTML}?
# [19:18] <fantasai> if yes, then they'll match
# [19:18] <fantasai> if no, then they won't
# [19:18] <anne> right
# [19:18] <fantasai> if it's not defined, it's not Selectors' place to define it
# [19:19] <anne> but {XHTML namespace, html} HTML has to match
# [19:19] <anne> and at that point it becomes a Selectors problem
# [19:19] <fantasai> ok, back up a sec
# [19:19] <fantasai> did the spec change to say that HTML elements in HTML documents create XHTML DOM nodes?
# [19:19] <anne> there's no such thing as XHTML DOM nodes
# [19:20] <anne> there's just DOM nodes
# [19:20] <anne> HTML DOM vs XML DOM is some fiction that was never really adopted
# [19:20] <dbaron> Our "internal DOM" has an IsCaseSensitive() method on nodes.
# [19:20] <dbaron> I think you pretty much have to.
# [19:20] <anne> hsivonen is removing a bunch of that
# [19:20] <dbaron> He's fixing the namespace disaster that I was against from the start.
# [19:20] <dbaron> But I don't think he's removing IsCaseSensitive()
# [19:21] <dbaron> I don't see how we could distinguish tag matching without that.
# [19:21] <dbaron> We're not going to make "BODY { color: green}" stop working
# [19:21] <anne> based on namespace
# [19:21] <dbaron> I think that's a bad idea
# [19:21] <anne> for the XHTML namespace you always match lowercase
# [19:21] <dbaron> So you're saying we should make "BODY { color: green} " match <xhtml:body> in an XML document?
# [19:22] <anne> it's pretty neat I think
# [19:22] <anne> that'd be a side effect
# [19:22] <fantasai> no
# [19:22] <fantasai> we are not doing that
# [19:22] <dbaron> I think that's a bad idea.
# [19:22] <anne> why?
# [19:22] <dbaron> It's 10 years too late.
# [19:22] <anne> we do it on the DOM side
# [19:22] <dbaron> and XML is case-sensitive
# [19:23] <anne> sure, it remains case-sensitive
# [19:23] <dbaron> case-insensitivity is a pain
# [19:23] <anne> it's just the selection mechanism has namespace specific knowledge
# [19:23] <dbaron> where do you do it on the DOM side?
# [19:23] <anne> getElementsByTagName
# [19:23] <dbaron> ugh
# [19:24] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Apr/0081.html
# [19:24] <anne> outlines the general idea
# [19:24] <anne> i think that's the only sane solution here, but i'm open to suggestions
# [19:25] <fantasai> tag selectors in a CSS style sheet applied to an XML document should match any elements in that document case-sensitively
# [19:26] <fantasai> I don't care how you explain the implementation concept, but I'm opposed to anything that changes that
# [19:26] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.114)
# [19:26] <anne> the proposal is to change that
# [19:26] <fantasai> then I'm against the proposal
# [19:26] <anne> i don't see why Selectors should be different from the DOM in this respect
# [19:27] <anne> it only affects HTML elements in XML documents
# [19:28] <fantasai> look, I don't care what you define for weird DOM manipulating ECMAScripted edgecases
# [19:28] <fantasai> that import nodes from one type of document to another and other twisted things like that
# [19:29] <anne> with HTML elements I mean XHTML elements as well, to be clear
# [19:29] <fantasai> but on a straight-up parse from the XML
# [19:29] * Quits: melinda (melinda.gr@67.47.246.6) (Quit: melinda)
# [19:29] <fantasai> selector matching should be case-sensitive
# [19:30] <fantasai> This testcase: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS3/Selectors/current/xhtml/tests/css3-modsel-181.xml
# [19:30] <fantasai> should remain valid
# [19:30] <fantasai> whatever you do
# [19:30] <anne> i think the model where Selectors matches the same regardless of HTML or XML is more clean
# [19:30] <fantasai> you are entitled to your opinions
# [19:31] <fantasai> but you are not entitled to changing behavior that has been clearly specced and interoperably implemented for practically a decade
# [19:31] <fantasai> without a better reason than aesthetics
# [19:32] <anne> it makes the platform more consistent
# [19:32] <anne> because DOM matching doesn't depend on some silly HTML/XML flag
# [19:33] <anne> and conforming XHTML elements are lowercase anyway
# [19:33] <fantasai> and don't match uppercase selectors anyway
# [19:34] <anne> only for textArea is that a practical issue
# [19:35] <fantasai> anne, we are not changing the behavior of that testcase
# [19:36] <anne> since when do you authority over this?
# [19:36] <anne> have*
# [19:36] <anne> this does not seem like a reasonable debate to me
# [19:36] <anne> i'll bow out
# [19:37] <fantasai> anne, if you want to bring it to the WG, feel free
# [19:37] <fantasai> anne, but you will not get a positive response there
# [19:37] <fantasai> anne, there are too many implementations that pass that test case already
# [19:38] <fantasai> anne, if you want, I'll even keep quiet during the whole debate that ensues
# [19:38] <anne> and several might be ok with failing that test as indicated on the list
# [19:38] <anne> anyway, we'll see
# [19:39] <anne> what dbaron proposed could work too
# [19:42] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
# [19:43] <sylvaing> maybe some pulp fiction IE abuse is in order: http://www.elliottkember.com/ie.html
# [19:47] <anne> lol
# [19:48] <anne> i love that movie
# [19:49] <sylvaing> totally
# [19:49] <sylvaing> kind of love the view-source idea on that page too
# [19:50] <fantasai> Bert, issues 102 and 103 closed
# [19:50] <fantasai> Bert, let me know when you complete the rest
# [20:14] <Bert> Fantasai, what else do I need to complete?
# [20:14] <fantasai> Issue 85 - fixing typos
# [20:15] <fantasai> Issue 94 - placement of example
# [20:15] <fantasai> maybe you did these?
# [20:15] <fantasai> I didn't check them because you didn't say you did
# [20:15] <Bert> I believe so, let me check if I uploaded them...
# [20:15] <fantasai> Issue 100 - copying wording from css3-background
# [20:15] <fantasai> btw, I didn't check 104
# [20:15] <fantasai> if you could double-check that for me
# [20:15] <fantasai> I don't really know what to look for
# [20:15] <fantasai> issue 105
# [20:15] <fantasai> Issue 108
# [20:17] <Bert> I think 100 is done. I copied what was needed according to the issue, I don't think we should change something just to make it better.
# [20:18] <Bert> 94 indeed already uploaded.
# [20:19] <Bert> 85 also
# [20:20] <Bert> Double-checking 104...
# [20:21] <Bert> (I noticed while editing 104 that Yves and I already proposed a different, but equivalent change some time ago. A little shorter, but not much.)
# [20:23] <fantasai> Bert, the 85 fix didn't make it to Changes or Errata
# [20:25] <Bert> We should really stop changing CSS 2.1, if only because it's such a pain to edit a spec and a changes section and an errata list :-(
# [20:25] <fantasai> hehehe
# [20:25] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
# [20:25] <fantasai> Bert, Issue 94 didn't make it to the Changes list
# [20:25] <fantasai> or Errata
# [20:28] <Bert> Double-checked 104.
# [20:30] <Bert> I see 85 in the errata and in the changes...
# [20:31] <Bert> althjough it would look better to merge C.5.8 with C.5.7.
# [20:35] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
# [20:35] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
# [20:45] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
# [20:53] <Bert> 85 and 94 updated in errata and changes. 105 seems OK. 108 uses the exact text I sent to www-style; nobody asked for it to be changed.
# [20:56] * fantasai reviews these
# [20:56] <fantasai> you could also do 112 while I check :)
# [20:56] * fantasai waits for this thing to load....
# [20:58] <fantasai> Bert, well, ok but I don't think your text actually fixes the issue for 108
# [21:00] * fantasai closes 85, 94, and 105
# [21:01] <fantasai> oh, there's another change
# [21:01] <Bert> The issue was whether 'none' could be a counter name. It now says, in two places, that it cannot. What else is needed?
# [21:01] * fantasai has dug up your email to www-style
# [21:02] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.114) (Ping timeout)
# [21:03] <fantasai> I'll let it slide
# [21:03] * fantasai doesn't think it's totally clear that counter-increment: none 3 foo 4; is to be considered invalid
# [21:04] <fantasai> Bert: should I close Issue 104 then?
# [21:11] <Bert> Yes, 104 can be closed.
# [21:11] <Bert> 112 is being generated, should be uploaded in a minute or two.
# [21:41] <fantasai> Bert, wrt feature requirements for border-image
# [21:41] <fantasai> the bullet about drawing the outside edge of the border image
# [21:42] <fantasai> should say "at or beyond" rather than "at the border edge"
# [21:43] <Bert> Did anybody request "beyond"?
# [21:44] <fantasai> yes
# [21:44] <fantasai> that was one of the major points in the discussion over Brad Kemper's propsoal
# [21:44] <fantasai> s/propsoal/proposal/
# [21:44] <fantasai> and one of the key features in it
# [21:46] <fantasai> Checked in an example for &&
# [21:46] <fantasai> to css3-background
# [21:46] <fantasai> you can use it to edit Issue 113
# [21:46] * fantasai looks to see if 112 made it to the servers yet
# [21:48] * Quits: anne (annevk@83.86.138.148) (Ping timeout)
# [21:51] <Bert> Borders outside the borders: seems rather over-engineered.
# [21:51] <Bert> borde-rimage was nice because i wa ssimple.
# [21:51] <Bert> Now it's no longer simple. I'd rather drop the whole property :-(
# [21:52] <fantasai> you probably should take a good look at the examples in http://www.bradclicks.com/cssplay/border-image/Thinking_Outside_The_Box.html
# [21:53] <fantasai> they show why it's necessary
# [21:53] <fantasai> anyway
# [21:53] <Bert> No, they show that Brad has a lot of fantasy.
# [21:53] <fantasai> 112 still hasn't made it to w3.org
# [21:53] <fantasai> did you check it in yet?
# [21:54] <Bert> I can see it.
# [21:55] <fantasai> oh
# [21:55] <fantasai> yeah
# [21:55] <fantasai> I can see the text change too
# [21:55] <fantasai> but the title hasn't been changed
# [21:55] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0099.html
# [21:57] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.111)
# [22:01] <Bert> The title wasn't part of David's proposal, just a "perhaps." The change itself already wasn't necessary, the change of the title even less. It would have been good in 1997, but now it just causes confusion.
# [22:02] <fantasai> alright, fine
# [22:03] <fantasai> next time, I'm going to insist on us being excruciatingly precise about which bits of a proposal we're accepting when we accept a proposal
# [22:03] <fantasai> I was under the impression that both changes were accepted
# [22:12] <fantasai> Alright, those issues closed
# [22:12] <fantasai> 113 and you're done :)
# [22:14] <fantasai> Bert, let me know when you're done with 113
# [22:34] <sylvaing> (fwiw, the scribe thought both changes were accepted as well)
# [22:43] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.111) (Ping timeout)
# [23:00] * Joins: anne (annevk@83.86.138.148)
# [23:09] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.112)
# [23:18] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.112) (Connection reset by peer)
# [23:34] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.114)
# [23:49] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.114) (Connection reset by peer)
# Session Close: Thu Apr 16 00:00:00 2009

The end :)