/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2009-06-03 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Jun 03 00:00:00 2009
# Session Ident: #css
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# [07:17] <dbaron> sleep is, apparently, only for the non-jetlagged :-(
# [07:25] <MikeSmith> dbaron: 6am there?
# [07:26] <dbaron> MikeSmith, 7:22 now, but I went for a run at 6:15 after giving up on sleeping
# [07:33] <MikeSmith> dbaron: you can sleep during the meeting
# [07:33] <MikeSmith> that's what I usually do
# [07:53] * dbaron had some Café Noir with breakfast
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# [08:20] <mollydotcom> hey, anyone over at the office with a car?
# [08:20] <mollydotcom> Need ride! Farther away than I thought to walk, but only a few minutes by car
# [08:21] <mollydotcom> I sent directions to the email list
# [08:22] <mollydotcom> I await a chariot
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# [08:26] <annevk> heh
# [08:26] * annevk wonders if molly knows about this taxi concept
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# [08:28] <mollydotcom> alloooooooooooo
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# [08:33] <annevk> mollydotcom, taxi :)
# [08:38] <mollydotcom> yep, they are calling one now
# [08:38] <mollydotcom> thanks :)
# [08:39] <mollydotcom> I figured if I caught someone on the way it would be better but they can get me a taxi in five minutes
# [08:39] <mollydotcom> okay, on my way
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# [09:21] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/06/03-CSS-irc
# [09:21] <dbaron> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [09:21] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, dbaron
# [09:21] <dbaron> Meeting: CSS Working Group Face-to-Face
# [09:21] <dbaron> Chair: Daniel Glazman
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# [09:26] <jdaggett> karen goes for the food
# [09:26] <ChrisL> trackbot, start telcon
# [09:26] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
# [09:26] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
# [09:26] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
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# [09:26] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be Style_CSS FP
# [09:26] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
# [09:26] <trackbot> Meeting: Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) Working Group Teleconference
# [09:26] <trackbot> Date: 03 June 2009
# [09:26] <ChrisL> zakim, remind us in 8 hours to go home
# [09:26] <Zakim> ok, ChrisL
# [09:26] <ChrisL> scribenick: ChrisL
# [09:26] <dbaron> Present: Sylvain Galineau, Steve Zilles, Daniel Glazman, John Daggett, Bert Bos, Anne van Kesteren, Alex Mogilevsky, Håkon Wium Lie, Molly Holzschlag, Elika Etemad, Arron Eicholtz, Chris Lilley, David Baron
# [09:26] <ChrisL> topic: testsuites
# [09:27] * Joins: fantasai (fantasai@66.252.19.122)
# [09:27] <ChrisL> dg: CSS2.1 testsuite is a major item
# [09:27] <ChrisL> ... we should have ts and imp reports by end of 2009 to be on time for charter
# [09:27] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@193.51.208.72)
# [09:27] <ChrisL> ... problem is to decide when to stop, which we are not good at
# [09:28] <ChrisL> ... its for CR exit criteria and then secondly a continuously improved, large one
# [09:28] <ChrisL> ... we can't improve the first one forever or we will never get to rec
# [09:29] <ChrisL> dg: also we have many modules getting ready for cr and not test suites for most of them
# [09:29] <ChrisL> ee: we have it for some, build scripts need some work
# [09:30] <ChrisL> dg: test suites are part of the technical work. its part of what we do. we need sustained commitment to finish specs by doing test suites. otherwise the specs are useless
# [09:31] <ChrisL> ae: is the process fully documented?
# [09:31] <ChrisL> jd: at last f2f we parcelled out the tests. i l looked at the font submissions, it was not clear where some of the tests came from
# [09:32] <ChrisL> ... there are build scripts that don't work, tests that are in svn, tests on ms page not in svn. format varies too
# [09:32] <ChrisL> ...so it all needs some work
# [09:32] <ChrisL> ee: yes, some is half finished
# [09:33] <ChrisL> ... supposed to have build scripts continually rnning, thats not been done yet
# [09:34] <ChrisL> jd: i was writing a script to try and pull all this together because looking at source one by one is tedious
# [09:34] <ChrisL> ee: ok so lets get that script and put it on the server
# [09:35] <ChrisL> jd: its not packaged, and volunteers need a packaged product and platform-independent instructions
# [09:35] <ChrisL> ... eg rendering can be off by half a pixel, rather than "switch off cleartype"
# [09:36] <ChrisL> jd: we need packaged zips of tests, with as version number, so we know what people have tested
# [09:36] <ChrisL> ee: not looked at platform specifics, probably mainly affects fonts, will need to look at this more
# [09:36] <ChrisL> ... need to get the build scripts working
# [09:37] <ChrisL> jd: need to prune out obsolete stuff like old build scripts, old instructions that are wrong, etc
# [09:37] <ChrisL> ee: yes some of it is a mess but its possible to review from the source
# [09:38] <ChrisL> ae: chapter 4 needs http
# [09:39] <ChrisL> jd: there are instructions that say install this font then take it out "at the end" .... end of what
# [09:39] <ChrisL> hl: tests are better online, but yes we need versioning, dated versions like in CSS1 test suite
# [09:40] <ChrisL> jd: main thing is it should be simple to run
# [09:40] <ChrisL> hl: should not call them conformance tests
# [09:40] <ChrisL> (several agrees)
# [09:41] * Bert wonders what people will think if we call it a "non-conformance test suite" :-)
# [09:42] <ChrisL> hl: want to see the term removed. don't call them a "conformance" test suite
# [09:42] <ChrisL> ee: easy to fix
# [09:42] <ChrisL> jd: a lot of pages, some outdated. need to tidy them up
# [09:43] <ChrisL> ... never clear what the status was. some need to be marked as not maintained
# [09:43] <ChrisL> avk: please cite specific examples
# [09:43] <ChrisL> bb: wiki pages are just scratch pads, ignore those
# [09:43] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/
# [09:44] <ChrisL> jd: people need to know what to ignore
# [09:44] <ChrisL> ee: wiki pages say how to contribute to the project
# [09:45] <ChrisL> jd: are we going to merge these?
# [09:45] <ChrisL> ee: yes eventually
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# [09:45] <ChrisL> ae: this page is the central hub but it needs links to instructions
# [09:45] <ChrisL> ee: wiki has the instructions
# [09:46] <jdaggett> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1
# [09:46] <ChrisL> jd: wiki talks of cvs but now we are using svn
# [09:47] <ChrisL> ee: happy to move tests to the w3c site, would like them to be in svn as we often move directories
# [09:47] <ChrisL> jd: so already reviewed tests will be suppleented by ms tests, once reformatted?
# [09:48] <ChrisL> ee: should be same format
# [09:48] <ChrisL> jd: but there can be tests per chapter
# [09:48] <ChrisL> ee: will make snapshots more regularly, also combine so we have svn as the master repository
# [09:49] <ChrisL> jd: main thing is to have the documentation more clear
# [09:50] <ChrisL> ee: (argues convincingly that its easier to tidy up the structure than document the existing brokenness)
# [09:50] <ChrisL> avk: if changes are made, do they propogate to the ms test suite?
# [09:51] <ChrisL> ae: probably easier to send comments rather than test changes as we have multiple internal copies and some internal red tape to go through
# [09:51] <ChrisL> ... easier for me if people send feedback to mailing list rather than modifying tests
# [09:52] <ChrisL> ... want to have a same week turnaround for changes to the tests after review
# [09:52] <ChrisL> dg: so when will we be done?
# [09:52] <ChrisL> ae: december is a good target if we have the reviews
# [09:53] <fantasai> dg: The test suite is done when we have less tests coming in and the review comments are no longer finding lots of errors in the tests
# [09:54] <ChrisL> dg; need to decide when we are done (for CR)
# [09:54] <ChrisL> dg: deadline for submitting nw tests would help, i can't decide that alone
# [09:55] <ChrisL> ae: we have submitted all the ones that we think are needed
# [09:56] <ChrisL> dg: so it comes doen to a problem of commitment. its less interesting
# [09:56] <ChrisL> ... we have a bad image in the consortium because of this
# [09:56] <ChrisL> avk: color and namespaces, test have come fast. also for media queries
# [09:57] <ChrisL> dg: yes, we have submissions but all over the place. no implementation report, not instructions, no review. having some tests is only the first step
# [09:58] <ChrisL> db: for selectors we are lacking imp reports
# [09:58] <ChrisL> ee; selectors tests build script is broken
# [09:58] <ChrisL> dg; original one was a directory, its become more complex now
# [09:58] <ChrisL> mh: sounds like we need some project management
# [09:59] <ChrisL> ee: familiar with the technical basis but have no project management skills
# [09:59] <ChrisL> (laughter)
# [09:59] <ChrisL> hl: you are the right person
# [10:00] <ChrisL> jd: moz japan has funding for an intern to do testing
# [10:01] <ChrisL> dg; want a one-click setup of a framework for nrew tests, so it all builds and you just drop in tests
# [10:01] <ChrisL> ... reusable instructions
# [10:01] <ChrisL> s/nrew/new/
# [10:02] <ChrisL> ee: for most test suites, they can reuse the same instructions. its only if they need something special
# [10:03] <ChrisL> dg: we could have 30 test suites if you look at all the modules
# [10:03] <ChrisL> ee: its just a few lines of config script
# [10:03] <ChrisL> db: lets not add more requirements
# [10:03] <ChrisL> dg: trying to avoid revisiting this for each test
# [10:04] <ChrisL> avk; can avoid having html, xhtml, xml versions
# [10:04] <ChrisL> ee: build scripts do wquite a lot in fact
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# [10:04] <ChrisL> ... makes TOC for example, by chapter and section
# [10:05] <ChrisL> dg: so, all tests subitted by september/october 2009?
# [10:05] <ChrisL> ... for css 2.1
# [10:06] <ChrisL> dg: tests bu 15 Sept, reviews by 1 Dec. then we can do a release at new year
# [10:07] <ChrisL> s/bu/by/
# [10:07] * Parts: sylvaing (sylvaing@193.51.208.72)
# [10:07] <ChrisL> dg: ok so lets really do it this time
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# [10:08] <ChrisL> dg; we should be able to get to PR by end of year
# [10:08] <ChrisL> avk: we do need the implementations
# [10:09] <ChrisL> cl; need the reports to see where the implementation gaps are
# [10:10] <ChrisL> cl: a coverage report is needed, to show spec coverage
# [10:10] <ChrisL> avk; for navigation, just a directory listing is fine
# [10:10] <ChrisL> ... not sure we should updaste the build scripts
# [10:11] <ChrisL> db: would like to discuss test format and do a demo
# [10:11] <ChrisL> dg; selectors test suite, all we need is imp reports
# [10:12] <ChrisL> ee: also needs some tests to be dropped and a couple others added
# [10:12] <ChrisL> db; have sent imp reports four times already
# [10:12] <ChrisL> cl; can just remove non-relevant lines from existing reports
# [10:12] <ChrisL> ee: so the build is broken and only hixie can fix
# [10:13] <ChrisL> s/;/:/g
# [10:13] <ChrisL> db: copied color build scripts from selectors?
# [10:13] <ChrisL> ee: no, from css2.1 in fact
# [10:14] <ChrisL> db; how crucial are the newly added tests
# [10:14] <ChrisL> ee: format is reaslly wierd. its some xml thing that hixie made up
# [10:14] <ChrisL> db: but dont redisign the entire thing to add one more test
# [10:14] <fantasai> Hixie, are you still able to build the Selectors test suite?
# [10:14] <Hixie> hm?
# [10:14] <Hixie> haven't tried in many years
# [10:15] <Hixie> what's up?
# [10:15] <ChrisL> cl: better to make an xslt that converts it to a more directly useful format
# [10:15] <glazou> Hixie: that would help us a lot if you could do it
# [10:15] <ChrisL> ee; lachlan added tests, could not build it either
# [10:15] <glazou> Hixie: a few tests were added and some removed
# [10:15] <Hixie> the format is daniel's, i think :-)
# [10:15] <ChrisL> avk: just link to the additional tests
# [10:15] <ChrisL> jd: sucks
# [10:15] <glazou> Hixie: we're not speaking of format but build scripts
# [10:15] <Hixie> oh
# [10:15] <fantasai> fantasai: The source format is not something you can run
# [10:16] <fantasai> Hixie, IIRC, neither lachlan nor I was able to run the build scripts
# [10:16] <Hixie> the answer appears to be "no", because my copy wasn't from cvs
# [10:16] <Hixie> what's the error?
# [10:17] <ChrisL> dg: so mozilla has almost complete coverage for selectors. what about opera and microsoft?
# [10:17] * fantasai tries again
# [10:17] <ChrisL> db: can we see what tests changed, rather than re-run the entire thing again?
# [10:17] <ChrisL> hl: much easier
# [10:18] <fantasai> Hixie, I'm not getting an error, I'm only just not getting any built tests
# [10:18] <fantasai> Hixie, dist is empty
# [10:18] <ChrisL> hl: depends on how many tests need to be re-run
# [10:18] <Hixie> fantasai: odd
# [10:18] <ChrisL> db: selectors takes about an hour to re-run
# [10:19] <Hixie> fantasai: mail me a tarball
# [10:20] <ChrisL> db: last time i sent a report, no-one else did so .....
# [10:20] <ChrisL> dg: we have a two year charter and need to get it done
# [10:20] <ChrisL> hl: why was the test suite changed
# [10:20] <ChrisL> dg: because we removed a section, and found some tests were missing
# [10:21] <ChrisL> db: we did outr reports and then some more tests arrived. we need to decide to freeze it and stick to that decision
# [10:21] <ChrisL> avk: we changed selection
# [10:22] <ChrisL> hl: who accepted the additional tests
# [10:22] <ChrisL> avk: lachlan submitted them
# [10:23] <fantasai> Hixie, sent
# [10:23] <ChrisL> mh; do we have an acceptance policy
# [10:23] <ChrisL> dg: yes but we didn't follow it
# [10:23] <ChrisL> action: chris run the six new selectors tests on opera
# [10:23] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [10:23] <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - chris
# [10:23] <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ChrisWilson, clilley)
# [10:23] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [10:24] <ChrisL> action: chris to run the six new selectors tests on opera
# [10:24] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [10:24] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [10:24] <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - chris
# [10:24] <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ChrisWilson, clilley)
# [10:24] <ChrisL> action: clilley to run the six new selectors tests on opera
# [10:24] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [10:24] * RRSAgent records action 3
# [10:24] <trackbot> Created ACTION-147 - Run the six new selectors tests on opera [on Chris Lilley - due 2009-06-10].
# [10:24] <fantasai> Hixie, sorry, I used a different email address by accident, search for my first name
# [10:25] <fantasai> if you're trying to find it in your inbox
# [10:25] <fantasai> or search for selectors :)
# [10:25] <fantasai> (in the subject)
# [10:27] <ChrisL> cl: color module seems to have mostly complete coverage now
# [10:27] <Hixie> fantasai: and nothing has changed except the test files? so i can ignore everything but the test files?
# [10:27] <ChrisL> db; sent in some implementation report already
# [10:27] <fantasai> Hixie: right
# [10:27] <ChrisL> s/;/:/g
# [10:28] <fantasai> Hixie: I made a change to the makefile so the perl command would run under bash
# [10:28] <fantasai> Hixie: but other than that I have not touched the build scripts
# [10:28] * Hixie uses bash
# [10:28] <fantasai> Hixie: we added some files (css3-modsel-184?.xml) and removed a few
# [10:29] * fantasai isn't sure why the Makefile was complaining then
# [10:29] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
# [10:29] <fantasai> dbaron: One issue with our test suites is that they have to be run manually, and that's a laborious possible
# [10:29] <fantasai> dbaron: Insofar as we can run tests automatically, we should do that
# [10:30] <fantasai> dbaron: It could reduce the amount of time needed to run the tests
# [10:30] <fantasai> dbaron: This can make it much quicker to create an implementation report
# [10:30] <fantasai> dbaron: and to keep implementations from regressing
# [10:31] * Joins: howcome (howcome@193.51.208.72)
# [10:31] <fantasai> dbaron: The idea of reftests is that the test consists of two HTML files plus an assertion that those two files either look the same or don't look the same
# [10:31] <fantasai> dbaron: It's something that can be automated
# [10:31] <fantasai> dbaron: but is also something you can run manually
# [10:31] <fantasai> dbaron: Here are two tests I can run manually.
# [10:31] <fantasai> dbaron: I can open them in two tabs and flip between them, to verify that they're the same
# [10:32] <fantasai> dbaron: You can also run them automatically
# [10:32] <fantasai> dbaron: Our implementation for running this automatically uses canvas and JavaScript
# [10:32] <fantasai> dbaron: other implementations can use other automation frameworks
# [10:33] <fantasai> dbaron: and you can also run the tests manually
# [10:33] <fantasai> dbaron: There's a whole lot of stuff you can automate this way, although not everything
# [10:34] <fantasai> dbaron: The counters tests I submitted for CSS2.1, for example, were originally reftests
# [10:35] <fantasai> dbaron: I would like to be able to submit tests in this format
# [10:36] <fantasai> discussion of some tests
# [10:36] <fantasai> glazou: box-shadow with blur radius, combine with image?
# [10:36] <fantasai> fantasai: can't do that because gradient for blur radius is explicitly undefined
# [10:36] <fantasai> dbaron: The not-equals tests can be useful to check that assumptions are correct
# [10:37] <fantasai> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/layout/reftests/
# [10:38] <fantasai> avk: Opera uses an image-based regression test framework
# [10:38] <fantasai> avk: we compare to screenshots
# [10:38] <fantasai> jdaggett: For a lot of these tests you need to notice a 1px difference
# [10:38] <fantasai> jdaggett: Some of the Microsoft tests, it's really hard to tell
# [10:39] <fantasai> dbaron shows off his box model acid test
# [10:39] <fantasai> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/layout/reftests/box-properties/CSS21-t100303.xhtml
# [10:39] <fantasai> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/layout/reftests/box-properties/CSS21-t100303-ref.xhtml
# [10:40] <fantasai> dbaron: It's much better to write a test that combines a lot of assertions than to require the tester to run 600 individual tests that are all almost the same
# [10:41] <fantasai> jdaggett: The automation is always going to be vendor-specific
# [10:41] <fantasai> dbaron: I'm not saying we should require tests in this format, but that we should allow tests to be submitted in this format
# [10:42] * Parts: howcome (howcome@193.51.208.72)
# [10:43] <fantasai> Bert: comparing two PDFs will be a bit more difficult than comparing two screenshots
# [10:43] <fantasai> Bert: This is fine for a browser
# [10:43] <fantasai> Bert: But how am I going to test Prince, or Opera Mini, or HP's printer?
# [10:44] <fantasai> Bert: Hold two pieces of paper against the light?
# [10:45] <ChrisL> yes, compare them by hand. the tests can be run manually, but are also automatable in some cases
# [10:45] <fantasai> Discussion of metadata
# [10:46] <fantasai> Reftests should have all relevant metadata: author, help, assertion, flags, etc
# [10:46] <fantasai> Chris: SVG compares SVG and a PNG image, we do side-by-side comparisons and have a harness for hit
# [10:46] <fantasai> s/hit/it/
# [10:47] <fantasai> jdaggett: The key point of this format is that it's not rendering vs image, but rendering vs rendering
# [10:47] <fantasai> jdaggett: With images you can't guarantee the same image across multiple platforms
# [10:47] <fantasai> (anti-aliasing, etc)
# [10:48] <fantasai> Steve: There are a number of cases where we've consciously left things undefined, so you cannot assert pixel equivalence
# [10:48] <ChrisL> jes, using raster images relies on specific font rendering so it makes it harder to automate. markup equivalents are better as the platform difference is evened out
# [10:48] <ChrisL> s/jes/yes/
# [10:49] <Hixie> i figured out the problem with the test suite generator
# [10:49] <Hixie> fantasai: remove the first line of generate.pl
# [10:50] <Hixie> fantasai: and rerun make
# [10:50] <ChrisL> bb: why are we allowing another format that is different to what we decided some years ago?
# [10:50] <ChrisL> dg: because it allows automated testing and means we get more results
# [10:50] <ChrisL> bb; think this is worse
# [10:51] <ChrisL> db: its much faster to run through tests in this format
# [10:51] <ChrisL> am: we have very little project management here, thats why we are lagging
# [10:51] <Hixie> fantasai: there'll be an updated copy on my site by the time i hit enter on this sentence
# [10:51] <Hixie> ok it'll take a few more minutes
# [10:52] <ChrisL> avk: this format is a lot better for implementors
# [10:52] <ChrisL> bb: some implementors
# [10:52] <ChrisL> avk: no, most
# [10:52] <fantasai> Hixie: ok
# [10:52] <ChrisL> dg: its good because it gets us closer to our exit criteria
# [10:52] <fantasai> ScribeNick: ChrisL
# [10:52] <Hixie> there, done
# [10:52] <Hixie> the copy on my site is up to date again
# [10:52] <fantasai> Hixie: I'm running into css3-modsel-184a: modulename/number attributes wrong ('css3-modsel-184')
# [10:53] <Hixie> yeah you need to fix the number="" attribute to match the filename
# [10:53] <ChrisL> jd: its a practical matter, allows browsers to fix bugs and check for regression. excellent to catch regressions
# [10:53] <Hixie> number="184a" or whatever
# [10:53] <ChrisL> ... helps maintain a higher level of interoperability
# [10:53] <fantasai> Hixie, ok, making those changes now
# [10:53] <ChrisL> sg: so we run these for imp reports?
# [10:53] <ChrisL> dg: yes
# [10:54] <ChrisL> sg: does it get us to the deadline faster
# [10:54] <ChrisL> db: yes. and new tests always need to be run
# [10:54] <ChrisL> dg: david is asking if this format is acceptable
# [10:55] <ChrisL> cl: this is for css3 as well
# [10:55] <fantasai> Hixie, thanks
# [10:55] <ChrisL> resolved: we accept tests in ref-format as well, as long as they have the existing metadata style
# [10:56] <ChrisL> ae: prefer to have them link to each other in the metadata
# [10:57] <ChrisL> db: manifest file helps in the case of many-to-one links from refs to tests
# [10:57] <ChrisL> ... and they can be concatenated easily
# [10:58] <ChrisL> (break)
# [11:14] * MikeSmith wonders if glazou is around at the moment
# [11:15] <glazou> yes but hold on please
# [11:17] * MikeSmith points glazou to PM
# [11:23] <ChrisL> topic: upcoming meetings
# [11:26] <ChrisL> tpac is 2-3 nov 2009
# [11:26] <ChrisL> sz: are we meeting the sunday as well?
# [11:26] <ChrisL> (no)
# [11:26] <ChrisL> (we look at march 2010)
# [11:27] <ChrisL> db: time for a north american meeting
# [11:27] <ChrisL> cl: www2010 is 26-30 april
# [11:28] <ChrisL> in raleigh
# [11:28] <ChrisL> http://www2010.org/www/
# [11:28] <ChrisL> dg: yes but we need a meeting in between
# [11:30] <ChrisL> (hakon offers oslo in february, to laughter)
# [11:33] <ChrisL> (brainstorming on dates and locations. speculation as to tpac 2010 site and date)
# [11:39] <ChrisL> proposed: bay area in march, several hosting possibilities, easy for peter linss to get to
# [11:39] <ChrisL> dg: after 8 march
# [11:40] <ChrisL> sg: sxsw etc overlaps
# [11:40] <ChrisL> db: mar 12-16
# [11:40] <ChrisL> mh: crazy week, mix right after
# [11:41] <ChrisL> proposed: 22-24 march, bay area
# [11:41] <ChrisL> adobe, mozilla as possible hosts
# [11:43] <jdaggett> proposed: apple hosts
# [11:43] <ChrisL> s/adobe/adobe, apple, microsoft/
# [11:44] <ChrisL> hakon proposes oslo in august
# [11:45] <ChrisL> or june
# [11:45] <ChrisL> hl: the more meetings, the lower the attendance
# [11:47] <ChrisL> 16-18 August 2009, Oslo
# [11:47] <ChrisL> sz: perfer to avoid 16
# [11:47] <ChrisL> 18-20 2010, Oslo
# [11:48] <ChrisL> s/16-18 August 2009, Oslo//
# [11:48] <ChrisL> and then see about tpac
# [11:48] <dbaron> s/18-20 2010/18-20 August 2010/
# [11:49] <ChrisL> topic: role of molly, liaison, use cases, website
# [11:50] <ChrisL> mh: we has jason teague, did a lot of work, and it was put aside and lost momentum
# [11:50] <ChrisL> ... so would like to project manage that to bring to fruition
# [11:50] <ChrisL> ... bert did soem work but we lost the information architecture
# [11:51] <ChrisL> ee: that would be great
# [11:51] <ChrisL> bb: want to keep existing links and names of pages (cool links don't break)
# [11:51] <ChrisL> ... thought i used the structure
# [11:51] <ChrisL> ee: layout but not the information architecture
# [11:52] <ChrisL> bb: public pages, i'm responsible and have to be maintainable
# [11:52] <ChrisL> ... and chris as well
# [11:52] <ChrisL> ... so don't want to learn new tools
# [11:52] <ChrisL> .. have some make scripts, eg for translations
# [11:53] <ChrisL> ... structure, what did I do wrong there?
# [11:53] <Bert> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS-tmp/
# [11:53] <ChrisL> bb: this is a temporary page and will go away
# [11:54] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@193.51.208.72)
# [11:54] <ChrisL> ... trimmed out links to other w3c groups
# [11:54] <ChrisL> ... also made top left menu shorter
# [11:55] <ChrisL> ee: news and current work are very long , unstructured. jason and elika design had a structure, not just the page but the whole site.
# [11:55] <ChrisL> ... set up a structure to understand the site. but this is a huge long list
# [11:56] <ChrisL> ee: jasons draft did not have the long lists
# [11:56] <ChrisL> bb: oh, i didn't use his latest work
# [11:56] <ChrisL> .... didn't like it
# [11:57] <ChrisL> ee: propose that we take berts draft and rearrange the content to have the current work in a smaller or secondary page
# [11:57] <dbaron> I just updated http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/meetings.html with "(tentative)" entries for the two meetings we just planned. Somebody else should check I got everything right, though.
# [11:57] <ChrisL> yup, looks good
# [11:58] <ChrisL> mh: needs to be clear and simple with links to further information
# [11:58] <ChrisL> ee; drowned in long list of news items
# [11:58] <ChrisL> sz: keep top 3
# [11:58] <ChrisL> mh: replace current work with an intro, link to more details
# [12:00] <ChrisL> (discussion on whether the design is too big)
# [12:00] <ChrisL> mh: its a current design trend, big and bold
# [12:01] <ChrisL> mh: boxes need to be smaller, to the point. this is designer/developer outreach, not for coders
# [12:01] <ChrisL> ... like richard ishidas site, very clean
# [12:01] <ChrisL> ... this may be a bit over designed
# [12:02] <ChrisL> jd: just needs tghtening to a higher information density
# [12:02] <ChrisL> bb: ok, that would be easy, trimming news items, replacing table with an intro
# [12:02] <ChrisL> ee: little boxes to introduce topics
# [12:03] <ChrisL> ... actual sections, not random links. need to impose a structure
# [12:03] <jdaggett> jdaggett: many thumbs up for this...
# [12:04] <fantasai> ee: and navigation header represents these topics across all subpages
# [12:04] <ChrisL> mh; just presnting the material well. tighten up and match the information to the audience and a consistent navigation scheme throughout
# [12:04] <ChrisL> ee: so I suggest I talk with molly to show bert what we mean
# [12:05] <ChrisL> bb: top bar has three items as well as the home page
# [12:05] <ChrisL> sz; want a quick way to see whats on *this* page
# [12:06] <ChrisL> ... lots below the fold
# [12:06] <ChrisL> cl: maybe tabs to give an overview
# [12:07] <ChrisL> ee: so small boxes, if its short you can see the whole thing at a glance
# [12:07] <ChrisL> mh; good info, bt does not all belong on home page
# [12:07] <ChrisL> ... so elika and i will work on that and i can manage this
# [12:08] <ChrisL> ... people expect more of w3c in terms of usable information
# [12:08] <ChrisL> mh; which brings us to community outreach and liaison
# [12:08] <ChrisL> ... to drive traffic we need attractive resources, then use twitter
# [12:09] <ChrisL> ... its our relationship to the world
# [12:09] <ChrisL> .. fundamental, and missing
# [12:09] <ChrisL> ... social networking can enhance this and I want to work on that. developers want to be more involved, but designers find it hard to track whats going on
# [12:10] <ChrisL> jd; is this really aimed at content developers?
# [12:10] <ChrisL> ... desigers spend a lot of time on edge cases caused by poor interop
# [12:11] <ChrisL> bb: ther is the blog as well
# [12:11] <ChrisL> dg; demo pages
# [12:11] <ChrisL> s/;/:/g
# [12:12] <ChrisL> dg: want to see demo pages for new stuff, with an explanation below. short articles
# [12:12] <ChrisL> mh: showing use of features, best practices
# [12:13] <ChrisL> ... community liaison is what I am best at
# [12:13] <ChrisL> dg: template with container elements