/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2010-03-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Mar 17 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  34. # [14:30] <krijnh> fantasai: ping
  35. # [14:52] * jdaggett_ is now known as jdaggett_home
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  43. # [16:35] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/17-CSS-irc
  44. # [16:35] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  45. # [16:35] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 28 minutes
  46. # [16:35] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  47. # [16:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  48. # [16:44] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (chatzilla@216.2.7.2)
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  50. # [16:44] * TabAtkins_ is now known as TabAtkins
  51. # [16:53] * Joins: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45)
  52. # [16:56] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  53. # [16:56] <Zakim> + +95089aaaa
  54. # [16:57] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is me
  55. # [16:57] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  56. # [16:58] <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aabb
  57. # [16:59] <plinss> zakim, aabb is me
  58. # [16:59] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
  59. # [16:59] <Zakim> + +1.415.738.aacc
  60. # [16:59] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@71.94.81.196)
  61. # [17:00] <glazou> Zakim, aacc is jdaggett
  62. # [17:00] <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
  63. # [17:00] <jdaggett_home> thanks
  64. # [17:01] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
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  67. # [17:01] * TabAtkins_ is now known as TabAtkins
  68. # [17:03] <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aadd
  69. # [17:03] <Zakim> + +1.408.536.aaee
  70. # [17:04] <plinss> zakim, aadd is bradk
  71. # [17:04] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10)
  72. # [17:04] <fantasai> krijnh: pong
  73. # [17:04] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
  74. # [17:04] <Zakim> +??P0
  75. # [17:04] <bradk> thanks
  76. # [17:04] * TabAtkins will be in in a sec.
  77. # [17:04] <plinss> zakim, ??P0 is fantasai
  78. # [17:04] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  79. # [17:04] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aaff
  80. # [17:04] <bradk> Tab, are you in Calif now?
  81. # [17:05] <plinss> zakim, aaff sylvaing
  82. # [17:05] <Zakim> I don't understand 'aaff sylvaing', plinss
  83. # [17:05] <plinss> zakim, aaff is sylvaing
  84. # [17:05] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  85. # [17:05] <TabAtkins> bradk: Yup.
  86. # [17:05] <TabAtkins> bradk: In a hotel in Fremont right now until my house is ready to be moved into.
  87. # [17:06] <glazou> ah yes TabAtkins is joining google (or joined already)
  88. # [17:06] <Zakim> +Bert
  89. # [17:07] <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aagg
  90. # [17:07] <bradk> new time zone too, from Texas
  91. # [17:07] <Zakim> + +1.832.797.aahh
  92. # [17:07] <TabAtkins> Zakim, aahh is me.
  93. # [17:07] <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
  94. # [17:08] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  95. # [17:08] <sylvaing> Tab, congrats on the move !
  96. # [17:08] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  97. # [17:08] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
  98. # [17:09] * Zakim sees on the phone: glazou, plinss, jdaggett (muted), +1.408.536.aaee, bradk, fantasai, sylvaing, Bert, +1.408.636.aagg, TabAtkins, [Mozilla]
  99. # [17:09] * dbaron Zakim, [Mozilla] is David_Baron
  100. # [17:09] * Zakim +David_Baron; got it
  101. # [17:09] * dbaron wonders who the 408s are
  102. # [17:09] <sylvaing> scribenick: sylvaing
  103. # [17:09] <glazou> dbaron: Christopher from Adobe for Fonts
  104. # [17:09] <glazou> (I think so)
  105. # [17:10] * glazou dbaron , at least one of the unidentified number is
  106. # [17:10] <sylvaing> CSS2.1 test suite
  107. # [17:10] <sylvaing> fantasai: new alpha build is out. please review tests, identify build system issues
  108. # [17:11] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Mar/0152.html
  109. # [17:11] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
  110. # [17:12] <sylvaing> fantasai: if you review a test, please make sure to communicate it by adding yourself as a reviewer or mailing the list
  111. # [17:13] <sylvaing> fantasai: we had a request to submit i18n WG testcases
  112. # [17:13] * Joins: cslye (cslye@192.150.10.200)
  113. # [17:14] <plinss> zakim, aaee is cslye
  114. # [17:14] <Zakim> +cslye; got it
  115. # [17:15] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/International/tests/list-html-css
  116. # [17:15] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2010Feb/0015.html
  117. # [17:16] <sylvaing> Next topic: CSS3 Fonts
  118. # [17:16] <sylvaing> jdaggett: I posted a draft update including opentype font feature support following the f2f discussion last year
  119. # [17:16] <jdaggett_home> http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/featurelist.htm
  120. # [17:17] <sylvaing> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Feb/0244.html
  121. # [17:17] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Core Breach)
  122. # [17:17] <jdaggett_home> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-fonts/#font-variant-ligatures-prop
  123. # [17:17] <sylvaing> There are lot of opentype features
  124. # [17:18] <sylvaing> this proposal groups these features in compound properties; there is a granularity trade-off in that you pick a set of features
  125. # [17:18] <jdaggett_home> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Mar/0098.html
  126. # [17:18] <sylvaing> jdaggett: Sergey Malkin preferred thee features to be exposed as individual properties
  127. # [17:18] <sylvaing> jdaggett: this would result in a lot of properties
  128. # [17:19] <sylvaing> fantasai: I think you've done a good job grouping related properties
  129. # [17:19] <sylvaing> fantasai: there is a lot of overhead in having a lot of properties for browsers and authors.
  130. # [17:19] <sylvaing> fantasai: and we may still end up with compound/shorthand properties in the future
  131. # [17:20] <fantasai> s/can/
  132. # [17:20] <fantasai> if needed
  133. # [17:21] <sylvaing> jdagett (answering Tab): for people who have Macs, this is easy to test using TextEdit. The font panel shows you available font features
  134. # [17:21] <jdaggett_home> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Feb/0244.html
  135. # [17:21] <sylvaing> jdaggett: some font features are specific to a single font. this could have side-effects in a fallback situation
  136. # [17:22] <sylvaing> jdagett: this primarily affects those OT style settings that use a number (styleset() )
  137. # [17:22] <sylvaing> jdaggett: the other properties do apply across fonts
  138. # [17:22] * sylvaing has been misspelling john's name all along. grmph.
  139. # [17:23] <dbaron> s/jdagett/jdaggett/g
  140. # [17:23] <sylvaing> jdaggett: cslye: it's not just that some features apply only to one font, it's that styleset x in font B might look completely different and unrelated to styleset x in font A
  141. # [17:24] <sylvaing> jdaggett: i think the spec could use more background on the rendering model.
  142. # [17:25] * Joins: smfr (smfr@17.203.14.12)
  143. # [17:25] <plinss> zakim, aagg is smfr
  144. # [17:25] <Zakim> +smfr; got it
  145. # [17:25] <dbaron> Where is the wording in the spec about the precedence? (Or is it not there yet?)
  146. # [17:26] * sylvaing missed some of the discussion due to sound issues
  147. # [17:26] <jdaggett_home> dbaron: section 7
  148. # [17:27] * Quits: dydz (dydz@76.199.100.248) (Quit: dydz)
  149. # [17:28] <fantasai> fantasai: I think it's a good idea to have font-variant-alternates on the @font-face, to allow -font-specific variant selection
  150. # [17:28] <fantasai> fantasai: would we still have these numeric selections in the property?
  151. # [17:28] <fantasai> jdaggett: yes
  152. # [17:28] <dbaron> jdaggett_home, section 7 doesn't seem clear whether the order it gives is highest-to-lowest or lowest-to-highest precedence
  153. # [17:29] <sylvaing> ?: the odds of falling back to a font with a competing equivalent styleset are lower. authors will go from most to least specific.
  154. # [17:29] <fantasai> fantasai: I'm concerned that authors will use the numeric selections on the property because it's easier
  155. # [17:29] <fantasai> fantasai: instead of tying it to the font in @font-face
  156. # [17:30] <sylvaing> jdaggett: it's actually difficult to come up with a realistic scenario where this would work
  157. # [17:31] <sylvaing> cslye: I understood stylesets to be a power user feature.
  158. # [17:31] <sylvaing> fantasai: this doesn't prevent breakage, it only limits its frequency
  159. # [17:31] <sylvaing> jdaggett: fallback will still happen
  160. # [17:32] <sylvaing> fantasai: I am still concerned in applying this to all fonts
  161. # [17:33] <sylvaing> plinss: I agree that this may not be a problem in the short term but it may be in the future. we should address these issues now
  162. # [17:33] <jdaggett_home> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Feb/0245.html
  163. # [17:34] <sylvaing> jdaggett: one of the features that is not in the spec already relates to sub/superscript support
  164. # [17:35] <sylvaing> jdaggett: OT can support a variant glyph suitable for sub/superscript resizing. it's also designed to look and feel like the rest of the text in that context
  165. # [17:35] <sylvaing> jdaggett: it's analogous to real smallcaps vs. synthesized smallcaps
  166. # [17:36] <jdaggett_home> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Feb/0247.html
  167. # [17:36] <TabAtkins> character-transform: super|sub
  168. # [17:36] * bradk is unable to see much in TextEdit that shows additional OpenType font features. Found ligatures in Arial, but the checkbox doesn't have any effect of fi or ffi.
  169. # [17:40] <glazou> Zakim, mute me
  170. # [17:40] <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
  171. # [17:41] <sylvaing> jdaggett/fantasai/tab: we need to way to use this OT feature if the glyphs are available, but simulate it with vertical-align:super when not.
  172. # [17:42] <fantasai> that's what Tab's proposal is
  173. # [17:42] <fantasai> my comment was that the property Tab proposed should also reset vertical-align and font-size to their initial values at parsetime
  174. # [17:42] <fantasai> the same way a shorthand does
  175. # [17:45] <sylvaing> jdaggett: also, it is hard for the spec to be format-agnostic i.e. not have a dependency on OT at this point
  176. # [17:45] <sylvaing> dbaron: there is a difference between spec and the test suite. The spec may apply to multiple formats but the test suite does not cover them all.
  177. # [17:45] <sylvaing> fantasai: for other formats, testcases can be submitted for conformance using that format
  178. # [17:46] * sylvaing has had a hard time following today.
  179. # [17:46] <fantasai> Can use examples to illustrate spec with OT-specific features
  180. # [17:46] <glazou> Zakim, unmute me
  181. # [17:46] <Zakim> glazou should no longer be muted
  182. # [17:46] <fantasai> For example, the specs don't require support for HTML or XML. You could use some other tree-based document format and style it with CSS
  183. # [17:47] <sylvaing> jdaggett: I will do another edit in the next week
  184. # [17:47] <fantasai> But the test suite is written assuming support for XML or HTML
  185. # [17:47] * Quits: anne (annevk@88.131.66.80) (Client exited)
  186. # [17:47] <fantasai> And all our examples in the specs use XML or HTML
  187. # [17:47] * Joins: anne (annevk@88.131.66.80)
  188. # [17:48] <sylvaing> Tab: I had imagined gradients to be infinite but it's not how Mozilla implemented it
  189. # [17:48] <fantasai> Topic: Extent of Gradients in Backgrounds
  190. # [17:48] <sylvaing> dbaron: we changed it based on what we thought the spec said
  191. # [17:49] <sylvaing> Tab: I would like to specify that the gradient be 'chopped' to the box and the extend keyword would make the gradient infinite
  192. # [17:50] <sylvaing> fantasai: SVG supports this as well
  193. # [17:50] <fantasai> s/supports/could support/
  194. # [17:50] <fantasai> Right now content in SVG is clipped to the SVG viewport
  195. # [17:50] <sylvaing> dbaron: I'd like to hear from Roc
  196. # [17:50] <fantasai> extend could mean don't clip
  197. # [17:50] <fantasai> So anything painted outside the viewport box would show up
  198. # [17:51] <fantasai> Tab: Anybody else implemented gradients?
  199. # [17:51] <fantasai> Simon: Webkit has the old syntax. I agree extend would be useful in many cases, and should be the default
  200. # [17:52] * sylvaing definitely leaves minutes to Elika. VoIP breaking down.
  201. # [17:52] <fantasai> Brad says something about patterns
  202. # [17:52] * fantasai ok
  203. # [17:52] <fantasai> Scribenick: fantasai
  204. # [17:52] * sylvaing thx!
  205. # [17:52] * fantasai has lost track of the conversation tho!
  206. # [17:53] <TabAtkins> Scribenick: TabAtkins
  207. # [17:54] <dbaron> TabAtkins, Is there a www-style message summarizing the background-repeat: extend proposal?
  208. # [17:54] <dbaron> TabAtkins, I see only http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2010JanMar/0101.html
  209. # [17:54] <TabAtkins> bradk: I think that the infinite-version of gradients is more useful, and should be the default, and then have a keyword to change it to the finite version.
  210. # [17:55] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: That's possible, but the SVG use-case for extend (popping it out of the viewbox) is still potentially useful. We can experiment with this.
  211. # [17:55] * jdaggett_home argh, cut off
  212. # [17:55] <fantasai> Sylvain explains his concern about background-clip
  213. # [17:55] <fantasai> Sylvain: About how you can't specify origin and clip in the shorthand
  214. # [17:55] * Zakim fantasai, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  215. # [17:55] <TabAtkins> dbaron: No, let me forward that mail to www-style.
  216. # [17:55] <fantasai> Sylvain: And there is no content-box value on background-clip
  217. # [17:55] * jdaggett_home heading to bed, night all
  218. # [17:56] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Mar/0021.html
  219. # [17:56] <Zakim> -jdaggett
  220. # [17:56] <fantasai> Sylvain: I don't think we should exclude the people who want to set background-clip to the content box
  221. # [17:57] <fantasai> proposed syntax: Change <bg-origin> in shorthand to <bg-origin>{1,2}
  222. # [17:58] <fantasai> Bert: I don't think clipping to the content box is very useful, but I don't see it's harmful either
  223. # [17:58] <fantasai> Sylvain: I don't see why it wouldn't be useful to have separate backgrounds for the border, padding, and content areas
  224. # [17:58] <fantasai> Brad: I agree
  225. # [17:59] <fantasai> Tab: Would be more useful with multiple backgrounds
  226. # [18:00] <fantasai> Brad: I don't like the proposed background shorthand syntax
  227. # [18:00] <fantasai> fantasai: I'm strongly in favor of my proposal
  228. # [18:00] <fantasai> fantasai: I really don't want to use a slash unless it's absolutely necessary, and it's not necessary here
  229. # [18:00] * sylvaing hope he sounds clearer than he hears at the other end.
  230. # [18:00] * TabAtkins sylvaing, yeah, we can hear you well.
  231. # [18:01] <fantasai> Daniel: From a parsing point of view the slash is very ugly
  232. # [18:01] * sylvaing sometimes lack of consistency is good :)
  233. # [18:01] * Parts: cslye (cslye@192.150.10.200)
  234. # [18:01] <Zakim> -cslye
  235. # [18:03] * ChrisL realises the call was an hour earlier so has just finished rather than just starting, damn.
  236. # [18:03] <fantasai> some argument about syntax
  237. # [18:04] <fantasai> dbaron: I would note that the initial values of the two properties are different
  238. # [18:04] <Zakim> -David_Baron
  239. # [18:04] <fantasai> fantasai: yeah, we know that. Imo it's a bug in the spec that it's now too late to fix
  240. # [18:04] <Zakim> -smfr
  241. # [18:04] <Bert> Regrets for next week
  242. # [18:04] <Zakim> -glazou
  243. # [18:04] <fantasai> Meeting closed.
  244. # [18:04] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  245. # [18:05] <Zakim> -Bert
  246. # [18:05] <Zakim> -plinss
  247. # [18:05] <Zakim> -bradk
  248. # [18:05] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
  249. # [18:05] * Quits: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  250. # [18:05] * Quits: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22) (Quit: oyvind)
  251. # [18:07] <Zakim> -fantasai
  252. # [18:07] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  253. # [18:07] <Zakim> Attendees were +95089aaaa, glazou, +1.858.216.aabb, plinss, +1.415.738.aacc, jdaggett, +1.650.275.aadd, +1.408.536.aaee, bradk, fantasai, +1.206.324.aaff, sylvaing, Bert,
  254. # [18:07] <Zakim> ... +1.408.636.aagg, +1.832.797.aahh, TabAtkins, David_Baron, cslye, smfr
  255. # [18:11] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  256. # [18:19] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Fire on main board error, client combusted)
  257. # [18:39] * Quits: smfr (smfr@17.203.14.12) (Client exited)
  258. # [19:03] * Quits: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.82) (Connection reset by peer)
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  260. # [19:15] * Quits: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.82) (Connection reset by peer)
  261. # [19:15] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.106)
  262. # [19:24] * Quits: anne (annevk@88.131.66.80) (Client exited)
  263. # [19:25] * Joins: anne (annevk@88.131.66.80)
  264. # [19:43] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: You around? Heard you'll be in San Fran this weekend, and wondered if you wanted to do any touristy stuff with the wife and me.
  265. # [20:25] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  266. # [20:25] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  267. # [21:20] <fantasai> that was stupid, should've just spent them working instead
  268. # [21:21] <fantasai> ugh
  269. # [21:21] <fantasai> wrong window
  270. # [22:19] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
  271. # [22:23] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
  272. # [22:59] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (chatzilla@216.2.7.2)
  273. # [22:59] * Quits: TabAtkins (chatzilla@216.2.7.2) (Connection reset by peer)
  274. # [22:59] * TabAtkins_ is now known as TabAtkins
  275. # [23:00] <sylvaing> TabAtkins: not this w-e, the one just before the f2f
  276. # [23:01] <sylvaing> i was mostly planning on walking around and take lots of photos....if I don't run into alexmog the night before, or survive it :)
  277. # [23:01] <sylvaing> but i'm sure we can come up with something !
  278. # [23:39] * fantasai is arriving from Seattle that Saturday, too
  279. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: kk
  280. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> fantasai: You living in Seattle right now, or just temporary while working with Arron?
  281. # [23:43] <sylvaing> fantasai is living the life. She even has a chauffeur to go to the office.
  282. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Also, your email's first example set "vertical-align:sub; character-transform:super;". ^_^
  283. # [23:45] <TabAtkins> Ooh la la. ^_^
  284. # [23:55] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@71.94.81.196) (Ping timeout)
  285. # Session Close: Thu Mar 18 00:00:00 2010

The end :)