/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2010-07-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 28 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  21. # [13:43] <ASG> does anyone know how to keep and extra wide data table constrained inside it's containing div?
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  34. # [17:43] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/28-CSS-irc
  35. # [17:43] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  36. # [17:43] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
  37. # [17:43] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  38. # [17:43] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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  43. # [17:58] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  44. # [17:58] <Zakim> +glazou
  45. # [17:59] <Zakim> + +1.650.214.aaaa
  46. # [18:00] * Joins: TabAtkin1_ (tabatkins@216.239.45.4)
  47. # [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is TabAtkin1_
  48. # [18:00] <Zakim> +TabAtkin1_; got it
  49. # [18:00] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  50. # [18:00] <arronei> zakim, microsoft is me
  51. # [18:00] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  52. # [18:01] <Zakim> +plinss_
  53. # [18:03] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  54. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.415.738.aabb
  55. # [18:04] <jdaggett> zakim: +1.415.738.aabb is jdaggett
  56. # [18:04] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
  57. # [18:04] <jdaggett> Zakim: aabb is jdaggett
  58. # [18:05] <jdaggett> Zakim: are you alive?
  59. # [18:05] * Joins: CesarAcebal (acebal@85.152.177.64)
  60. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P29
  61. # [18:05] <TabAtkin1_> zakim, aabb is jdaggett
  62. # [18:05] <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
  63. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P27
  64. # [18:05] <ChrisL> zakim, ??P27 is me
  65. # [18:05] <Zakim> +ChrisL; got it
  66. # [18:06] <jdaggett> zakim, mute jdaggett
  67. # [18:06] <Zakim> jdaggett should now be muted
  68. # [18:07] <Zakim> +smfr
  69. # [18:07] * Joins: smfr (smfr@72.25.91.23)
  70. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +34.60.940.aacc
  71. # [18:08] <glazou> Zakim, aacc is CesarAcebal
  72. # [18:08] <Zakim> +CesarAcebal; got it
  73. # [18:08] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/oslo-2010
  74. # [18:08] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  75. # [18:08] <jdaggett> zakim, unmute me
  76. # [18:08] <Zakim> jdaggett should no longer be muted
  77. # [18:09] <Zakim> +David_Baron
  78. # [18:09] <fantasai> glazou: F2F coming up, only a few topics listed on agenda
  79. # [18:09] <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/2010/Oslo.html
  80. # [18:09] <fantasai> glazou: Anyone have other topics?
  81. # [18:09] <Zakim> + +1.334.923.aadd
  82. # [18:09] <ChrisL> q+
  83. # [18:09] * Zakim sees ChrisL on the speaker queue
  84. # [18:09] <Zakim> -smfr
  85. # [18:10] * Joins: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45)
  86. # [18:10] <smfr> oops
  87. # [18:10] * Bert sorry for the delay, trouble with zakim...
  88. # [18:10] <fantasai> ChrisL: We need to recharter, so we need to discuss what's going into the next charter period
  89. # [18:10] <ChrisL> ack ChrisL
  90. # [18:10] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  91. # [18:10] <fantasai> jdaggett: I'd like to talk about CSS3 font feature support
  92. # [18:10] <Zakim> +smfr
  93. # [18:10] <fantasai> glazou: Please add to the wiki page the length of time you need for the discussion
  94. # [18:10] <fantasai> glazou: Anything else? Ok let's move back to CSS2.1 issues
  95. # [18:11] <fantasai> Topic: CSS2.1 Issues
  96. # [18:11] <jdaggett> zakim, mute me
  97. # [18:11] <Zakim> jdaggett should now be muted
  98. # [18:11] <fantasai> glazou: We have a few follow ups from previous weeks, and also a few issues from you
  99. # [18:11] * bradk is having computer problems. Can't launch anything since updating Safari, including Google voice. This message sent through my phone.
  100. # [18:12] <fantasai> bert: I posted a list of issues I edited
  101. # [18:12] <fantasai> bert: Issue 86 is a problem, just sent an email about that
  102. # [18:12] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  103. # [18:12] <fantasai> bert: My task for 86 was about the position of the list marker box, and my task was to tweak the text and make an edit, but after I tried and fantasai responded to that I wasn't sure what I was supposed to do there.
  104. # [18:13] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@71.83.115.240)
  105. # [18:13] <fantasai> bert: Wanted to discuss how far exactly the marker should be undefined
  106. # [18:13] <fantasai> bert: the marker is supposed to be outside the box
  107. # [18:13] <fantasai> bert: we decided it doesn't scroll
  108. # [18:13] <fantasai> bert: we decided it's on the left for ltr and on the right for rtl
  109. # [18:13] <fantasai> bert: we decided the marker could create a first line if there wasn't one
  110. # [18:14] <fantasai> bert: For 86 we decided it would be undefined
  111. # [18:14] <fantasai> bert: the issue was for floats and centering
  112. # [18:14] <Zakim> -smfr
  113. # [18:14] <Zakim> +smfr
  114. # [18:15] <fantasai> fantasai: It should only be defined for cases where the start of the inline content is not at the start edge of the containing block
  115. # [18:15] <fantasai> fantasai: i.e. in the presence of floats
  116. # [18:15] <fantasai> fantasai: And when text-align: center or end (or equivalent)
  117. # [18:17] <fantasai> bert: We do have implementations that leave the bullet on the outside edge in the presence of text-align
  118. # [18:17] <Zakim> +bradk
  119. # [18:17] * TabAtkin1_ 's guests showed up sooner than expected - I'll have to leave.
  120. # [18:17] <glazou> np TabAtkin1_
  121. # [18:17] <Zakim> -TabAtkin1_
  122. # [18:18] * Joins: bradk_ (bradk@67.188.133.45)
  123. # [18:18] <fantasai> dbaron: I thought some people wanted the bullet to move with text-align
  124. # [18:18] <fantasai> bert: On the mailing list people said that should be handled by position: inside
  125. # [18:19] * dbaron thinks there's actually a good bit of interop in the floats case too
  126. # [18:20] * glazou thinks we should test interactive properties only with batch processors :-)
  127. # [18:21] <fantasai> fantasai: If we have implementations for the text-align case, then let's just undefine the case for floats
  128. # [18:23] <fantasai> fantasai: We do want to leave the marker alone in text-align for CSS3; the bidi group concluded that was desireable for certain cases
  129. # [18:24] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Leave text-align case defined, position of bullet in presence of floats undefined for issue 86
  130. # [18:24] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-110
  131. # [18:25] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jul/0404.html
  132. # [18:25] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jul/0372.html
  133. # [18:25] <TabAtkin1_> At this point I'm just going to go with what Elika suggested.
  134. # [18:26] <glazou> TabAtkin1_: go with your guests !
  135. # [18:26] <fantasai> fantasai: My action item is done, proposed text as bz wanted
  136. # [18:27] <fantasai> Bert: I don't like it, but I guess it's not that common
  137. # [18:28] <dbaron> I'm deferring to bz
  138. # [18:29] <fantasai> fantasai: my position is the same as Bert's. I don't like it, but if we have to do it, we have to do it
  139. # [18:29] <fantasai> SteveZ: Mine is the same
  140. # [18:29] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Accept bz's proposal
  141. # [18:29] * glazou needs water
  142. # [18:30] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-118
  143. # [18:31] <jdaggett> zakim, unmute me
  144. # [18:31] <Zakim> jdaggett should no longer be muted
  145. # [18:31] <glazou> what was that noise??
  146. # [18:32] <jdaggett> zakim, mute me
  147. # [18:32] <Zakim> jdaggett should now be muted
  148. # [18:32] <fantasai> fantasai: I think the next text is fine. I agree with Anton that it's a little confusing about whether leading affects the content box area
  149. # [18:32] <dbaron> Is the term "em-box" defined? Should it be?
  150. # [18:33] <fantasai> Bert: That's explicitly undefined, so I tried to avoid talking about it
  151. # [18:33] * fantasai notes dbaron's comment comes after Bert's
  152. # [18:33] <fantasai> Bert: This is not the first time the em box appears in the text. I don't think we have a formal definition of it
  153. # [18:33] <ChrisL> if em box is used then it should be defined
  154. # [18:35] <Bert> (10.6.1. says the height of the content area is explicitly undefiend, that's why I didn't talk about content box in issue 118.)
  155. # [18:36] <fantasai> SteveZ: I don't think anyone's disagreeing with the text, but what the right way to say where the spacing goes
  156. # [18:36] <fantasai> SteveZ: The problem has to do with describing where the extra leading occurs
  157. # [18:37] <fantasai> Bert: We need some measure of what gets centered. It's not the ink of the glyph, because that maybe far outside the em box
  158. # [18:38] <ChrisL> http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/csswork/inline/embox.html
  159. # [18:38] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/fonts.html#font-size-props
  160. # [18:39] <bradk_> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&q=define%3A+em+box&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&;gs_rfai=
  161. # [18:39] <ChrisL> The em-box is the theoretical box (or square) around a font character of a given 'size' as designed by the font designer. It is sometimes referred to as an em-square. It is the theoretical square that glyphs are designed upon. Its height is the intended distance between lines of type in the same type size. In other words its height is the distance between baselines when the font is set without any extra leading (line-height).
  162. # [18:40] <fantasai> SteveZ: I would prefer a definition from the font specs
  163. # [18:40] <ChrisL> http://meyerweb.com/eric/css/inline-format.html
  164. # [18:40] <fantasai> ChrisL: That's taken from a discussion of fonts in the context of CSS. Let me get another one.
  165. # [18:40] <fantasai> fantasai notes we'd have to get permission from the author
  166. # [18:41] <fantasai> dbaron: The other thing here is that you need something that both has a measurement, and one that provides a position with respect to the baseline
  167. # [18:41] <fantasai> SteveZ: That's why I want to go back and check with the font guys
  168. # [18:42] <fantasai> glazou: ok, deferred to next week
  169. # [18:43] <ChrisL> actually we don't need permission since that definition is drawn from CSS2
  170. # [18:43] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-120
  171. # [18:43] <ChrisL> Certain values, such as width metrics, are expressed in units that are relative to an abstract square whose height is the intended distance between lines of type in the same type size. This square is called the em square and it is the design grid on which the glyph outlines are defined.
  172. # [18:43] <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-CSS2-20080411/fonts.html#emsq
  173. # [18:43] <fantasai> heh, nice
  174. # [18:43] <szilles> dbaron: sometimes things are expressed in terms of "ascent" and "descent" which are positioned metrics
  175. # [18:44] <dbaron> szilles, yeah, that's how our code works :-)
  176. # [18:44] <fantasai> glazou: Has anyone reviewed this?
  177. # [18:44] <fantasai> No response
  178. # [18:45] <fantasai> glazou: I give one week to everyone to review this and if there's no response it's accepted
  179. # [18:45] <fantasai> ACTION: Everyone - one week to review proposal for 120
  180. # [18:45] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  181. # [18:45] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Everyone
  182. # [18:45] * RRSAgent records action 1
  183. # [18:45] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (tabatkins@216.239.45.4) (Ping timeout)
  184. # [18:45] * Quits: TabAtkin1_ (tabatkins@216.239.45.4) (Ping timeout)
  185. # [18:45] <fantasai> glazou: issue 137
  186. # [18:45] <fantasai> fantasai: need to discuss with bzbarsky
  187. # [18:45] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (tabatkins@216.239.45.4)
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  189. # [18:46] <jdaggett> zakim, unmute me
  190. # [18:46] <Zakim> jdaggett should no longer be muted
  191. # [18:46] <fantasai> glazou: issue 154 open to jdaggett, arronei, and zwol (zack)
  192. # [18:46] <fantasai> jdaggett: Arron pinged me, but I don't know what we want to come up with
  193. # [18:46] <fantasai> arronei: I'll talk to you right after the meeting if you have time?
  194. # [18:46] <Zakim> -plinss_
  195. # [18:46] <fantasai> jdaggett: Maybe tomorrow morning / late afternoon your time?
  196. # [18:47] <fantasai> arronei: ping me when you're available tomorrow
  197. # [18:47] * dbaron thinks jdaggett means tomorrow for Japan and today for US :-)
  198. # [18:47] <Zakim> +plinss_
  199. # [18:47] * jdaggett it's 2am which means today is today everywhere!
  200. # [18:48] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-166
  201. # [18:48] * glazou thinks at 7pm I don't care about "today" but only about "dinner" and "off work" :)
  202. # [18:48] * glazou or at least my kids will remind me so
  203. # [18:49] <fantasai> Bert: The diff looks good, and is very easy to apply for me. :)
  204. # [18:49] <fantasai> Bert: I suggest we accept it
  205. # [18:49] <fantasai> glazou: Other thoughts?
  206. # [18:50] * glazou is lost in Bert's values and values :-)
  207. # [18:50] <smfr> -property does not accept percentages as values.
  208. # [18:50] <smfr> +property does not accept percentages in its values.
  209. # [18:50] <jdaggett> zakim, mute me
  210. # [18:50] <Zakim> jdaggett should now be muted
  211. # [18:51] <fantasai> glazou: No objection?
  212. # [18:51] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 166
  213. # [18:51] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-167
  214. # [18:52] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Client exited)
  215. # [18:52] <fantasai> dbaron: Zack said he'd respond with another proposal. Maybe he did and we forgot to put it on the issues list?
  216. # [18:53] <fantasai> fantasai: Latest message from him on that is 15 July
  217. # [18:54] <fantasai> glazou: Ok, add to wiki and action everyone to review for next week
  218. # [18:54] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-170
  219. # [18:55] <fantasai> dbaron: There was some amount of agreement on leaving things undefined, question is what things exactly we want to leave undefined
  220. # [18:55] <fantasai> glazou: I remember that web designers expect these properties to apply to cells and rows
  221. # [18:56] <fantasai> glazou: If we disable them, we should explain it very carefully.
  222. # [18:56] <fantasai> glazou: Let's defer and wait for Tab
  223. # [18:57] <bradk_> Both Tab and I had posted to the list about the TD TR max-height min0height thing...
  224. # [18:59] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Add missing values from writing-mode in SVG to CSS
  225. # [19:00] <bradk_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jul/0052.html
  226. # [19:00] <jdaggett> already added agenda items to the oslo f2f agenda page
  227. # [19:00] <fantasai> Meeting closed
  228. # [19:00] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  229. # [19:01] <Zakim> -jdaggett
  230. # [19:01] <Zakim> -smfr
  231. # [19:01] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  232. # [19:01] <Zakim> -David_Baron
  233. # [19:01] <Zakim> -arronei
  234. # [19:01] <Zakim> -glazou
  235. # [19:01] <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
  236. # [19:01] <Zakim> -plinss_
  237. # [19:01] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  238. # [19:01] <Zakim> -bradk
  239. # [19:01] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  240. # [19:01] <Zakim> - +1.334.923.aadd
  241. # [19:01] <Zakim> -??P29
  242. # [19:01] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  243. # [19:01] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, +1.650.214.aaaa, TabAtkin1_, arronei, plinss_, [Microsoft], +1.415.738.aabb, jdaggett, ChrisL, smfr, +34.60.940.aacc, CesarAcebal, David_Baron,
  244. # [19:01] <Zakim> ... +1.334.923.aadd, SteveZ, bradk
  245. # [19:02] * Parts: smfr (smfr@72.25.91.23)
  246. # [19:02] <fantasai> who was +34, +1.650 and +1.334 ?
  247. # [19:02] * Quits: bradk_ (bradk@67.188.133.45) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  248. # [19:04] <Bert> Hmm, I was certainly there, but Zakim didn't recognize me?
  249. # [19:04] <fantasai> So +34 was probably you?
  250. # [19:04] <dbaron> maybe 334?
  251. # [19:04] <dbaron> +1.334. is southern Alabama
  252. # [19:04] <dbaron> but maybe it was really +33.4. ?
  253. # [19:05] <dbaron> +34 is Spain
  254. # [19:06] <Bert> I must have been the +1.334.923.aadd then.
  255. # [19:11] * Quits: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45) (Client exited)
  256. # [19:13] <CesarAcebal> +34.60.940.aacc was me (calling from Skype but it's configured with my mobile phone number, and +34 is effectively Spain). I don't know why zakim has listed me twice (both by name and with my number).
  257. # [19:13] <Bert> I don't know about the +1, but my number starts with +334923... and that was the number that zakim reported just before my first message on IRC. (I was late, because Zakim gave me a busy tone at first.)
  258. # [19:14] <dbaron> The attendees list doesn't remove the original when you say "aacc is CesarAcebal"
  259. # [19:14] <dbaron> ...so you were listed twice.
  260. # [19:15] <Bert> Zakim has Cesar twice, because glazou told zakim that +34... was you, and zakim has the habit of only adding particiapnts to the list and never removing them.
  261. # [19:16] * Joins: Curt` (DorkeyDear@76.241.81.242)
  262. # [19:17] * Quits: jdaggett (jdaggett@183.77.242.62) (Quit: jdaggett)
  263. # [19:17] <Bert> Glazou also made 650=Tab, so Tab is there twice, too.
  264. # [19:18] <CesarAcebal> I see. I thought that in that case only the name and not the number appeared. Thanks!
  265. # [19:18] <Bert> Zakim normally remembers the assignment, so in theory, next time it should only list the name.
  266. # [19:19] <Bert> (But, in theory, it should also have known me...)
  267. # [19:19] <CesarAcebal> I know, but in my case not always work, and I suppose that it is because I don't always call with the same number.
  268. # [19:19] <CesarAcebal> :)
  269. # [19:31] * Quits: CesarAcebal (acebal@85.152.177.64) (Quit: CesarAcebal)
  270. # [19:52] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Core Breach)
  271. # [20:02] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
  272. # [21:16] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  273. # [21:17] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  274. # [21:17] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  275. # [21:39] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  276. # [22:15] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (tabatkins@216.239.45.4) (Ping timeout)
  277. # [22:15] * Quits: TabAtkin1_ (tabatkins@216.239.45.4) (Ping timeout)
  278. # [22:18] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (tabatkins@216.239.45.4)
  279. # [23:03] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Client exited)
  280. # [23:19] * Joins: jdaggett (jdaggett@183.77.242.62)
  281. # Session Close: Thu Jul 29 00:00:00 2010

The end :)