/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2010-08-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 04 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  31. # [17:24] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.169)
  32. # [17:24] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/08/04-CSS-irc
  33. # [17:24] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  34. # [17:24] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 38 minutes
  35. # [17:24] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  36. # [17:24] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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  43. # [17:58] <glazou> Zakim, code ?
  44. # [17:58] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), glazou
  45. # [17:58] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  46. # [17:58] <Zakim> +glazou
  47. # [17:58] <Zakim> +dsinger
  48. # [17:59] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.107.242)
  49. # [17:59] <glazou> Zakim, mute dsinger
  50. # [17:59] <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
  51. # [17:59] <dsinger_> zakim, mute dsinger
  52. # [17:59] <Zakim> dsinger was already muted, dsinger_
  53. # [17:59] * dsinger_ thx
  54. # [17:59] <glazou> np, the noise was too loud
  55. # [18:00] <dsinger_> zakim, who is here?
  56. # [18:00] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, dsinger (muted)
  57. # [18:00] <Zakim> On IRC I see dsinger_, arronei, dbaron, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, Curt`, bradk, nimbupani, miketaylr, shepazu, dsinger, TabAtkins_, karl, fantasai, krijnh, plinss_, lhnz, Bert,
  58. # [18:00] <Zakim> ... Peter`, tabatkins, trackbot, plinss, Hixie, jgraham
  59. # [18:00] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10)
  60. # [18:00] * Parts: nimbupani (nimbupani@24.22.131.46)
  61. # [18:00] * dsinger_ was my summary of pt vs px accurate? I got little feedback...
  62. # [18:01] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  63. # [18:01] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  64. # [18:01] * dsinger_ ?
  65. # [18:02] <arronei> zakim, microsoft is me
  66. # [18:02] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  67. # [18:02] <Zakim> +plinss_
  68. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  69. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Bert
  70. # [18:05] <Zakim> +sylvaing
  71. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.650.766.aaaa
  72. # [18:06] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is bradk
  73. # [18:06] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
  74. # [18:06] <Zakim> +smfr
  75. # [18:06] * Joins: smfr (smfr@17.203.14.12)
  76. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P16
  77. # [18:06] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  78. # [18:07] <glazou> Zakim, P16 is fantasai
  79. # [18:07] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'P16'
  80. # [18:07] <glazou> Zakim, ?P16 is fantasai
  81. # [18:07] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '?P16'
  82. # [18:07] <glazou> Zakim, you're annoying
  83. # [18:07] <Zakim> I don't understand 'you're annoying', glazou
  84. # [18:08] <dsinger_> Zakim, p16 is fantasai
  85. # [18:08] <Zakim> sorry, dsinger_, I do not recognize a party named 'p16'
  86. # [18:08] <dsinger_> zakim, who is on the phone?
  87. # [18:08] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, dsinger (muted), arronei, plinss_, [Microsoft], Bert, sylvaing, bradk, smfr, ??P16, SteveZ
  88. # [18:09] <dsinger_> Zakim, ??p16 is fantasai
  89. # [18:09] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  90. # [18:09] * Joins: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  91. # [18:09] <fantasai> Administrative: no more agenda items
  92. # [18:09] <fantasai> Topic: CSS Test Suite
  93. # [18:09] <glazou> Zakim, [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
  94. # [18:09] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
  95. # [18:09] <fantasai> arronei: Lots of tests need updating in response to review comments. Plan to get these done before the F2F.
  96. # [18:09] <fantasai> Topic: CSS2.1
  97. # [18:09] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-120
  98. # [18:10] <Zakim> +David_Baron
  99. # [18:10] <fantasai> glazou: Asked everyone to review issue 120, and if no comments, it's accepted
  100. # [18:10] <fantasai> glazou: Are there any comments?
  101. # [18:10] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@67.180.186.242)
  102. # [18:11] <fantasai> Bert: I just sent my review of the text. I had three places where I didn't agree with the replacements.
  103. # [18:11] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.107.242) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi)
  104. # [18:11] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0050.html
  105. # [18:13] <fantasai> Bert: block-level is not defined
  106. # [18:14] <fantasai> Bert: second issue is the definition of atomic inline box
  107. # [18:14] <fantasai> Bert: I'm wondering if it's necessary -- it's only used in one place
  108. # [18:15] <fantasai> fantasai: That seems alright to me.
  109. # [18:16] <fantasai> Steve: I'm fine with that as a resolution. However if we ever get around to Tab's split of the 'display' property or something similar, it would be a useful term to have.
  110. # [18:16] <fantasai> Steve: The concept is a useful one for people to understand
  111. # [18:17] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  112. # [18:17] <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
  113. # [18:17] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  114. # [18:18] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
  115. # [18:18] * Zakim sees on the phone: glazou, dsinger (muted), arronei, plinss_, [Microsoft], Bert, sylvaing, bradk, smfr, fantasai, SteveZ, David_Baron, [Apple]
  116. # [18:18] <fantasai> fantasai agrees with Steve
  117. # [18:18] * Zakim [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
  118. # [18:18] <Zakim> -dsinger
  119. # [18:18] * Zakim [Apple] has dsinger
  120. # [18:18] * Quits: Curt` (DorkeyDear@76.241.81.242) (Quit: Leaving)
  121. # [18:18] <fantasai> Steve: If there's no harm in introducing it here, it could be useful in the future.
  122. # [18:19] <fantasai> Bert: My third comment is wrt its use in the z-index property description, where I don't think we should use it.
  123. # [18:19] <fantasai> Bert: So we would define the term but not use it anywhere in CSS2
  124. # [18:19] <fantasai> Steve: That's fine, I think just the recognition that there is such a thing would be useful.
  125. # [18:19] * oyvind doesn't like "atomic" but doesn't have a better suggestion
  126. # [18:20] <fantasai> Bert: The other changes seem fine to me.
  127. # [18:21] <fantasai> fantasai: There were some comments on the mailing list, mostly editorial, about improving the text there. I will need to incorporate those as well.
  128. # [18:21] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-167
  129. # [18:21] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Proposal for 120 accepted with changes mentioned above.
  130. # [18:22] <fantasai> Bert's response to 167: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0052.html
  131. # [18:22] <Zakim> + +1.650.214.aabb
  132. # [18:22] <TabAtkins_> Zakim, aabb is me
  133. # [18:22] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_; got it
  134. # [18:22] <glazou> hi tabatkins
  135. # [18:22] * TabAtkins_ woke up late, sorry.
  136. # [18:22] <fantasai> Bert: In some cases a backslash is not an escaping mechanism.
  137. # [18:23] <fantasai> Bert: The way he defines that is to say it has "no special meaning", and then defines "no special meaning" inside a note, which is a non-normative part.
  138. # [18:23] <fantasai> Bert: Otherwise I think his changes are fine, other than the non-normative part.
  139. # [18:23] <fantasai> Bert: I would rather not define "no special meaning", but instead just say that the backslash stands for itself directly.
  140. # [18:24] <fantasai> glazou: Other comments?
  141. # [18:24] <fantasai> fantasai: I agree with Bert's changes, and I trust Bert to have made sure the proposal is correct
  142. # [18:25] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-118
  143. # [18:25] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Proposal accepted for issue 167 as corrected by Bert
  144. # [18:25] <fantasai> Steve: Basically I went back and looked at OpenType standard, and then checked with some font guys at Adobe to make sure I understood it.
  145. # [18:26] <fantasai> Steve: THe catch is, the em-box a) isn't really defined, other than to say that the coordinate system used in other values is given in units per em
  146. # [18:26] <fantasai> Steve: and b) its position is not really defined
  147. # [18:26] <fantasai> Steve: The ascent and descent values which dbaron mentioned are related to this
  148. # [18:27] <fantasai> Steve: There are three sets of such values
  149. # [18:27] <fantasai> Steve: One that tends to be Mac-centric
  150. # [18:27] <fantasai> Steve: One set tends to be Windows-centric
  151. # [18:27] <fantasai> Steve: And the third set, were put in to be platform independent.
  152. # [18:27] <fantasai> Steve: Those should be used if they exist.
  153. # [18:28] <fantasai> Steve: Then it's recommended that the distance between them equal one em, but it's not required.
  154. # [18:28] <fantasai> Steve: There are fonts for which it doesn't hold.
  155. # [18:28] <Zakim> -bradk
  156. # [18:28] <fantasai> Steve: I suggest the difference between that and an em be split, half above and half below, just like leading
  157. # [18:29] <Zakim> +bradk
  158. # [18:29] <fantasai> Steve: The last point is, the reason you need to do that is that leading + embox = line height.
  159. # [18:29] <fantasai> glazou: Do you mean we can't rely on the font's definitionof embox because it doesn't exist?
  160. # [18:29] <fantasai> Steve: Right. I didn't get as far as suggesting a rewording of the text.
  161. # [18:30] <fantasai> Steve: I got hung up on what centering meant.
  162. # [18:30] <fantasai> Bert: I can come up with wording for that.
  163. # [18:31] <fantasai> Bert: I have one concern which is, this applies to OpenType, but what about other font formats?
  164. # [18:31] <fantasai> Steve: I think the general approach I talk about works for any font with ascent and descent information. We assume that information exists.
  165. # [18:31] <fantasai> dbaron: We could say more broadly for any font that has any measurement relating the baseline to the edges of it
  166. # [18:32] <fantasai> dbaron: What Steve describes matches what we implement more than Bert's definition.
  167. # [18:32] <fantasai> dbaron: Although we never calculate the em-box, we just use the ascent and descent direction -- which is a shortcut for the same results.
  168. # [18:32] <fantasai> Bert: Do we still keep the references to OpenType fields?
  169. # [18:32] <fantasai> Steve: I would put it in an appendix or a note.
  170. # [18:34] <dbaron> s/descent direction/descent and compute the half-leading differently/
  171. # [18:34] <fantasai> fantasai: I would suggest putting the field names in a note, but using ascent and descent generically in the normative text.
  172. # [18:35] <fantasai> Brad would like to make sure there's interop for the use of OpenType tables.
  173. # [18:35] <fantasai> Steve suggests writing a test.
  174. # [18:36] <fantasai> Bert: I think we can't make this more precise wrt OpenType in CSS2.
  175. # [18:36] <fantasai> glazou: Do you have enough to come up up with wording?
  176. # [18:36] <fantasai> Bert: I think so
  177. # [18:36] <fantasai> ACTION: Bert to write updated proposal for 167
  178. # [18:36] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  179. # [18:36] * RRSAgent records action 1
  180. # [18:36] <trackbot> Created ACTION-247 - Write updated proposal for 167 [on Bert Bos - due 2010-08-11].
  181. # [18:37] <fantasai> glazou: Any progress on other issues?
  182. # [18:38] <fantasai> glazou: Let's have proposals done by the F2F
  183. # [18:39] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  184. # [18:39] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (47%), arronei (13%), Bert (34%)
  185. # [18:40] <fantasai> glazou: Issue 181
  186. # [18:40] <dbaron> TabAtkins_, Where's the message you mentioned sending that had questions about margin collapsing?
  187. # [18:40] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-181
  188. # [18:41] <fantasai> fantasai suggests 184-186 being more important to discuss
  189. # [18:41] <TabAtkins_> dbaron, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jul/0525.html and 528
  190. # [18:42] <fantasai> Tab: I think several things are way easier if you consider pseudo-elements as part of the element tree
  191. # [18:42] <fantasai> Bert: But then the element tree is not a tree
  192. # [18:45] <fantasai> glazou: Could say which sections pseudo-elements are treated as elements
  193. # [18:45] <fantasai> fantasai: That would be pretty much the entire spec except the Selectors chapter
  194. # [18:46] <fantasai> SteveZ: I support the "except" proposal in the issues list
  195. # [18:47] <fantasai> dbaron: I might go so far as saying :before and :after are treated as real elements except where specified, and have :first-line and :first-letter just be defined by the Selectors chapter
  196. # [18:48] <fantasai> fantasai: That doesn't give them enough definition -- e.g. how do we assign properties to them?
  197. # [18:48] <fantasai> dbaron: That's already pretty bizarre
  198. # [18:51] <fantasai> glazou: "Pseudo-elements behave just like real elements except as described below and elsewhere."
  199. # [18:51] <fantasai> Steve: But then I have to search the entire spec.
  200. # [18:51] <fantasai> Steve: At least point to the relevant sections
  201. # [18:52] <fantasai> fantasai: I think the relevant section is 12.1
  202. # [18:52] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-185
  203. # [18:52] <fantasai> RESOLVED: "Pseudo-elements behave just like real element except as described below and in section 12.1"
  204. # [18:53] <fantasai> dbaron: There are 2 different cases here, and I'm not sure which one he tested.
  205. # [18:54] <fantasai> dbaron: There's one where you have a zero-height float whose position is right at the edge of a line
  206. # [18:54] <fantasai> dbaron: And the other is where you have a zero-height float whose position is in the middle of the line (e.g. below another float)
  207. # [18:55] <fantasai> dbaron: If the top of a float is even with the bottom of a line, or the bottom of a float is even with the top of a line, that's not considered an intersection.
  208. # [18:55] <fantasai> dbaron: I'm not sure about the case of a zero-height float in the middle of a line
  209. # [18:55] <fantasai> dbaron: But we should be careful that we're testing the right cases here.
  210. # [18:56] * glazou notes that MSiE1 will have its 15th anniversary the 16th of august !!!
  211. # [18:56] <fantasai> ...
  212. # [18:57] <fantasai> dbaron: There's another bug in browsers where floats that don't intersect the top of a line are not considered. This shows up in Wikipedia a lot because they use floats for their intended purpose.
  213. # [18:57] <fantasai> dbaron: The only browsers that handle that right are IE6 and recent versions of Gecko
  214. # [18:57] * sylvaing thinks glazou sounds desperate to find a reason to celebrate
  215. # [18:58] <dbaron> IE6/IE7
  216. # [18:58] <dbaron> I think
  217. # [18:58] * sylvaing not that there is anything wrong with that
  218. # [18:58] <glazou> sylvaing: hey *I* did not get married last month ;-)
  219. # [18:58] * sylvaing uh ? I didn't either. I 'only' bought a house
  220. # [18:58] <fantasai> Tab: If you have two floats stacked on top of each other, one which is at the top of a line, and then a cleared float in the middle of the line, that second float doesn't push the line box even if it's wider than the line box.
  221. # [18:59] <fantasai> Tab: In Gecko it pushes only if it's visible; if it's zero height it doesn't.
  222. # [18:59] <fantasai> Tab: I don't mind Gecko's current behavior. And everyone else who doesn't match, they have a bug anyway.
  223. # [19:00] <fantasai> Tab: I could go either way on it -- detecting or not detecting zero-height floats both make sense.
  224. # [19:00] <fantasai> SteveZ: It makes sense for consistency to ignore it; since when it falls between lines it's ignored.
  225. # [19:01] <fantasai> SteveZ: Why would one have a zero-height float?
  226. # [19:01] <fantasai> SteveZ: I understand how it can happen; but is there a use case for it?
  227. # [19:01] <fantasai> Tab can't think of one
  228. # [19:01] <fantasai> Bert: It's a bit like positioned elements, that it's positioned at the auto position
  229. # [19:02] * Quits: smfr (smfr@17.203.14.12) (Client exited)
  230. # [19:02] * Joins: smfr (smfr@17.203.14.12)
  231. # [19:02] <fantasai> Bert: I don't know if it would make sense to use a zero-height float instead of abspos, but if you wanted to make it overlap...
  232. # [19:03] * smfr has to run to another meeting
  233. # [19:03] <Zakim> -smfr
  234. # [19:04] <fantasai> Brad: What about a transition from zero-height to another height?
  235. # [19:04] * TabAtkins_ is getting pushed out of his conference room.
  236. # [19:04] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
  237. # [19:04] <fantasai> Brad: You might want to cause reflow vertically, but not horizontally.
  238. # [19:05] <fantasai> SteveZ: Is there a use case that isn't an edge use case for this?
  239. # [19:06] * TabAtkins_ is now locked out of the room. >_<
  240. # [19:06] <fantasai> glazou: If we have no use case, what do you suggest?
  241. # [19:06] <fantasai> SteveZ: If we have interop, then it seems strange to break that.
  242. # [19:06] * TabAtkins_ suggests that we just spec what browsers do in that case.
  243. # [19:06] <fantasai> Bert: What interop do we have?
  244. # [19:07] <fantasai> dbaron: The other possibility is that we say zero-height floats never push lines. Which is nice, because it makes one implementation strategy easier.
  245. # [19:07] <fantasai> dbaron: We split each side of a bfc into vertical ranges, and we check for whether to push lines by checking for an intersection.
  246. # [19:07] <fantasai> dbaron: If we need to check for zero-height floats, then we need to deal with zero-height ranges, which is a bit of a pain.
  247. # [19:08] <TabAtkins_> Isn't that exactly what's being proposed?
  248. # [19:08] * glazou has people coming for dinner here and needs to end the call
  249. # [19:08] <fantasai> dbaron: If floats are changing height, there will be a lot of reflow anyway
  250. # [19:09] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  251. # [19:09] <Zakim> -bradk
  252. # [19:09] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  253. # [19:09] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  254. # [19:09] <Zakim> -David_Baron
  255. # [19:09] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  256. # [19:09] * Quits: bradk (bradk@74.93.1.121) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  257. # [19:09] <Zakim> -Bert
  258. # [19:09] <Zakim> -glazou
  259. # [19:09] <fantasai> SteveZ: So, proposed to make zero-height floats not affect line boxes, will ask for objections and resolve next week.
  260. # [19:09] * Quits: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  261. # [19:09] <Zakim> -fantasai
  262. # [19:09] <Zakim> -arronei
  263. # [19:09] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.20.4) (Quit: dsinger)
  264. # [19:09] <Zakim> -plinss_
  265. # [19:09] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  266. # [19:09] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, dsinger, arronei, plinss_, Bert, sylvaing, +1.650.766.aaaa, bradk, smfr, SteveZ, fantasai, JohnJansen, David_Baron, +1.650.214.aabb, TabAtkins_
  267. # [19:10] * Quits: glazou (glazou@85.168.30.158) (Quit: glazou)
  268. # [19:10] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10) (Quit: sylvaing)
  269. # [19:10] <TabAtkins_> arronei: You can call me whenever. Same number as before.
  270. # [19:56] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  271. # [19:59] * Joins: nimbupani (nimbupani@24.22.131.46)
  272. # [20:27] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  273. # [20:48] * Quits: nimbupani (nimbupani@24.22.131.46) (Quit: nimbupani)
  274. # [21:15] * Parts: smfr (smfr@17.203.14.12)
  275. # [21:41] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Client exited)
  276. # [21:55] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
  277. # [21:57] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  278. # [21:57] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  279. # [22:05] * Joins: jdaggett (jdaggett@183.77.242.62)
  280. # [22:26] * Joins: nimbupani (nimbupani@24.22.131.46)
  281. # [23:07] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Fire on main board error, client combusted)
  282. # [23:24] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@67.180.186.242) (Ping timeout)
  283. # Session Close: Thu Aug 05 00:00:00 2010

The end :)