/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2011-02-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 09 00:00:01 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  34. # [10:28] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Your use of <b> in css3-images is incorrect per HTML5. Technical terms are supposed to be marked up as <i>.
  35. # [10:28] * fantasai is reviewing the draft
  36. # [10:28] * fantasai or rather, parts ofit
  37. # [10:32] <fantasai> Also, don't reference editor's drafts unless you can't reference the official WD for some reason
  38. # [10:38] <anne> you think that is really better?
  39. # [10:39] <fantasai> which?
  40. # [10:40] <fantasai> referencing official WDs?
  41. # [10:40] <anne> yeah
  42. # [10:40] <fantasai> depends on how outdated the WD is :)
  43. # [10:41] <anne> well yeah, but any WD is outdated by definition :)
  44. # [10:41] <fantasai> didn't say if, but how much
  45. # [10:41] <fantasai> ;)
  46. # [10:42] <anne> fair enough, but is there a particular reason you think referencing a WD is better?
  47. # [10:42] <fantasai> if the problem is that WDs are not a good reference
  48. # [10:42] <fantasai> then we should get rid of them
  49. # [10:42] <fantasai> and make the editor's draft official
  50. # [10:42] <fantasai> or something
  51. # [10:43] <fantasai> in some cases that's a good idea
  52. # [10:43] <fantasai> in others, not so much
  53. # [10:44] <anne> you seem to hinge on this "official" thing quite a bit :)
  54. # [10:44] <fantasai> that's what we're directing people at
  55. # [10:44] <fantasai> as an organization
  56. # [10:45] <fantasai> I'd rather get more rapid updates to WDs
  57. # [10:45] <fantasai> than ad-hoc links, half to WDs and half to EDs
  58. # [10:45] <fantasai> some of which are reasonable references
  59. # [10:45] <fantasai> and others of which are crazy bits of scratch space
  60. # [10:46] <anne> yeah, but if you cannot have rapid updates to WDs we could be more practical
  61. # [10:46] <fantasai> we could, if it made sense
  62. # [10:46] <anne> organizations and their policies change
  63. # [10:46] <anne> but usually not top-down
  64. # [10:46] <anne> as you seem to suggest
  65. # [10:46] <fantasai> if what Tab was linking to was something for which the ED was obviously a beter reference
  66. # [10:46] <fantasai> but it's not
  67. # [10:47] <fantasai> it's a reference to a term defined in css3-background
  68. # [10:47] <fantasai> which at this point is quite stable, is not very much out-of-sync from its official copy (other than status)
  69. # [10:47] <fantasai> and it's a term definition in what's practically an example
  70. # [10:48] <anne> all the more reason not to worry much about it I would say
  71. # [10:49] <fantasai> I'll have to fix it eventually anyway
  72. # [10:51] <fantasai> I'd rather fix it now, and avoid similar problems in the future, than have "fix all references" on my to-do list when we go to LC
  73. # [10:52] <anne> it seems something to fix when background becomes REC
  74. # [10:52] <anne> before that there's no really not much difference
  75. # [10:52] <anne> imo
  76. # [10:53] <fantasai> why do we care about REC?
  77. # [10:54] <fantasai> the URL isn't going to change when css3-background goes to REC
  78. # [10:59] <anne> ideally by then it's stable
  79. # [10:59] <fantasai> I don't want to have to go back and update random unrelated drafts just because one module advanced in status
  80. # [11:00] <fantasai> if it's stable enough to reference the official URL, I want us referencing that
  81. # [11:00] <anne> that's already going to be a problem once you get css4-background
  82. # [11:00] <anne> or whatever we call it
  83. # [11:00] <fantasai> and if it's not, I want to pester the relevant working group until they get us a stable enough definition at the offical URL
  84. # [11:00] <fantasai> a) CSS4 background isn't going to create a problem here
  85. # [11:01] <fantasai> b) Referencing the editor's draft doesn't solve that problem anyway, since our editor's drafts are level-specific
  86. # [11:02] <anne> true true
  87. # [11:02] * fantasai pestered the media fragments wg until they got us a WD; so this method works :)
  88. # [11:03] <anne> sure, but WDs are generally bad for implementors
  89. # [11:03] <anne> at least for us
  90. # [11:06] <fantasai> Not going to argue with that.
  91. # [11:07] <fantasai> Ideally the latest version URL would be the editor's draft
  92. # [11:08] <fantasai> or at least something much closer to it
  93. # [11:09] <fantasai> Part of the difficulty is that the CSSWG wants a chance to review the editor's work, at least the major changes, before the draft goes out as official
  94. # [11:09] <anne> I don't quite get that
  95. # [11:09] <fantasai> whereas minor changes / bugfixes should just go straight up
  96. # [11:10] <anne> but it does indeed seem that a majority of the CSSWG liks reviewing drafts during meetings rather than some other time
  97. # [11:10] <fantasai> So, say I draft a new feature in CSS3 Text
  98. # [11:10] <fantasai> howcome wants a chance to make review that and make comments
  99. # [11:11] <fantasai> and steveZ etc.
  100. # [11:11] <fantasai> before it gets published officially as representing the WG position
  101. # [11:11] <anne> yeah I know, but WDs don't represent the WG position and you could just continuously review work you are interested in
  102. # [11:12] <fantasai> they do to some degree
  103. # [11:12] <fantasai> the degree increases as the draft gets more stable
  104. # [11:12] <anne> it does seem to help with focus now and then though
  105. # [11:12] <anne> e.g. the simplification of the writing modes draft
  106. # [11:12] <fantasai> in the early stages, it's like "we roughly agree that this is an area to work in"
  107. # [11:12] <anne> but I'm not sure if that is really thanks to this particular process
  108. # [11:12] <fantasai> then it's "we roughly agree on what these features look like"
  109. # [11:12] <fantasai> then it's "we agree on what these features look like and roughly on their behavior"
  110. # [11:13] <fantasai> then "we agree on these features and their behavior"
  111. # [11:13] <fantasai> and by CR it's locked down to the details
  112. # [11:13] <anne> ideally :)
  113. # [11:13] <fantasai> barring unseen bugs, it does represent the WG position down to the details
  114. # [11:14] <fantasai> wrt continuous review
  115. # [11:14] <fantasai> it's very hard to do that
  116. # [11:14] <fantasai> having the editor say "Ok, I'm done reshuffling everything, please take a look"
  117. # [11:14] <fantasai> makes it easier to set aside some time and do a good review of the draft
  118. # [11:14] <fantasai> without having to monitor all the flux
  119. # [11:16] <anne> maybe, it works pretty well for the WHATWG
  120. # [11:16] <anne> and XMLHttpRequest and some other specs I edit
  121. # [11:17] <fantasai> it doesn't work very well for me
  122. # [11:17] <anne> in WebApps publishing a WD is mostly a formality
  123. # [11:17] <fantasai> I don't have the context-switching capacity to monitor a lot of drafts
  124. # [11:17] <fantasai> on a continuous basis
  125. # [11:17] <anne> done to please some higher ordor
  126. # [11:17] <anne> order*
  127. # [11:19] <fantasai> I'm happy for the editor to go and fix stuff, but I'd like to have a point where it's "I've fixed a bunch of stuff, please take a look"
  128. # [11:24] <fantasai> although I don't mind so much whether "I've fixed a bunch of stuff" is a module-wide thing, or a per-feature thing
  129. # [11:25] <fantasai> whatwg tends to do per-feature
  130. # [11:26] <fantasai> "i've attempted to address all comments on this feature and have come up with the following"
  131. # [11:26] <anne> yeah, I do the same for my drafts
  132. # [11:26] <anne> collect a bunch of outstanding emails and address them
  133. # [11:27] <anne> or introduce a feature and email the list
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  148. # [17:39] <TabAtkins> fantasai: About <b>/<i>, sure. I guess I can make the change everywhere. I'm just using it as a really short way to establish xref links.
  149. # [17:51] * Joins: smfr (smfr@68.183.195.83)
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  153. # [17:52] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/02/09-css-irc
  154. # [17:52] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  155. # [17:52] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  156. # [17:52] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  157. # [17:52] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
  158. # [17:58] <gsnedders> Zakim, what's the code?
  159. # [17:58] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), gsnedders
  160. # [17:59] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  161. # [17:59] <Zakim> +??P10
  162. # [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, ?P10 is me
  163. # [18:00] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '?P10'
  164. # [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, P10 is me
  165. # [18:00] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'P10'
  166. # [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, +??P10 is me
  167. # [18:00] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '+??P10'
  168. # [18:00] <glazou> grrr
  169. # [18:01] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  170. # [18:01] <glazou> Zakim, ??P10 is me
  171. # [18:01] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  172. # [18:01] <glazou> pff
  173. # [18:01] * Joins: cesar (acebal@85.152.178.140)
  174. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +44.131.208.aaaa
  175. # [18:02] <Zakim> - +44.131.208.aaaa
  176. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +44.131.208.aaaa
  177. # [18:02] <gsnedders> Zakim, aaaa is me
  178. # [18:02] <Zakim> +gsnedders; got it
  179. # [18:02] <Zakim> +dsinger
  180. # [18:02] <Zakim> -dsinger
  181. # [18:02] <Zakim> +dsinger
  182. # [18:02] <Zakim> -dsinger
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  184. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aabb
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  186. # [18:03] <smfr> Zakim, aabb is me
  187. # [18:03] <Zakim> +smfr; got it
  188. # [18:03] <smfr> Zakim, you should know this
  189. # [18:03] <Zakim> I don't understand 'you should know this', smfr
  190. # [18:03] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  191. # [18:03] <johnjan> zakim, microsoft is johnjan
  192. # [18:03] <Zakim> sorry, johnjan, I do not recognize a party named 'microsoft'
  193. # [18:03] <smfr> what's with the "see admin assistance" when I dial?
  194. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.415.920.aacc
  195. # [18:03] <Zakim> +dsinger
  196. # [18:03] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  197. # [18:04] <johnjan> zakim, microsoft is johnjan
  198. # [18:04] <Zakim> +johnjan; got it
  199. # [18:04] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.110.233)
  200. # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, mute dsinger_
  201. # [18:04] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not know which phone connection belongs to dsinger_
  202. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  203. # [18:04] <dsinger_> zakim, mute dsinger
  204. # [18:04] <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
  205. # [18:04] <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
  206. # [18:04] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  207. # [18:05] * dsinger_ sorry about that. Back of bus...
  208. # [18:05] <glazou> np dsinger_
  209. # [18:05] <glazou> Zakim, who is on phone ?
  210. # [18:05] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, glazou.
  211. # [18:05] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  212. # [18:05] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, gsnedders, smfr, +1.415.920.aacc, dsinger (muted), johnjan, [Microsoft]
  213. # [18:05] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has arronei
  214. # [18:06] <dsinger_> Zakim, who is quiet this morning?
  215. # [18:06] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, dsinger_.
  216. # [18:06] <glazou> Zakim, aacc is fantasai
  217. # [18:06] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  218. # [18:06] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.110.233) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi)
  219. # [18:06] <Zakim> -dsinger
  220. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +34.60.940.aadd
  221. # [18:06] <Zakim> +dsinger
  222. # [18:07] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.110.233)
  223. # [18:07] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (tabatkins@216.239.45.4)
  224. # [18:07] <dsinger_> zakim, mute dsinger
  225. # [18:07] <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
  226. # [18:07] <cesar> Zakim, +aadd is me
  227. # [18:07] <Zakim> sorry, cesar, I do not recognize a party named '+aadd'
  228. # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P20
  229. # [18:07] <glazou> Zakim, aadd is cesar
  230. # [18:07] <Zakim> +cesar; got it
  231. # [18:07] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
  232. # [18:07] <kojiishi> zakim, P20 is me
  233. # [18:07] <Zakim> sorry, kojiishi, I do not recognize a party named 'P20'
  234. # [18:07] <kojiishi> zakim, ??P20 is me
  235. # [18:07] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
  236. # [18:07] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  237. # [18:07] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  238. # [18:08] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.101)
  239. # [18:08] <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] is dbaron
  240. # [18:08] <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
  241. # [18:08] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.110.233) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi)
  242. # [18:08] <Zakim> + +1.650.214.aaee
  243. # [18:08] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  244. # [18:08] <TabAtkins_> zakim, aaee is me
  245. # [18:08] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_; got it
  246. # [18:08] * glazou cals through SIP, works fine, finally 21st century at W3C !!!
  247. # [18:08] <Zakim> +dsinger.a
  248. # [18:08] <Zakim> -dsinger
  249. # [18:08] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.110.233)
  250. # [18:08] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  251. # [18:08] <dsinger_> zakim, mute dsinger
  252. # [18:08] <Zakim> dsinger.a should now be muted
  253. # [18:08] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (20%)
  254. # [18:08] <Zakim> -dsinger.a
  255. # [18:09] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.110.233) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi)
  256. # [18:09] * Joins: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117)
  257. # [18:09] <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aaff
  258. # [18:09] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.110.233)
  259. # [18:09] * Joins: howcome (howcome@80.203.20.196)
  260. # [18:09] <dbaron> Zakim, aaff is howcome
  261. # [18:09] <Zakim> +howcome; got it
  262. # [18:10] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.110.233) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi)
  263. # [18:10] <TabAtkins_> ScribeNick: TabAtkins_
  264. # [18:10] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Three items are Variables, multicol algo, and CSS3 text.
  265. # [18:10] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Can we do a quick check on B&B?
  266. # [18:10] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Yes, after 2.1 issues.
  267. # [18:11] <TabAtkins_> glazou: There are a few urls in the agenda with css 2.1 blockers
  268. # [18:11] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Let's review the firs tone, with all the redness inside.
  269. # [18:11] <fantasai> http://test.csswg.org/harness/results?s=CSS21_HTML&t=0&f[]=1&f[]=1
  270. # [18:11] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/blocking
  271. # [18:11] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/need-data
  272. # [18:11] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/invalid
  273. # [18:11] <Zakim> +Bert
  274. # [18:11] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@24.6.120.172)
  275. # [18:11] <TabAtkins_> glazou: I think these issues are mostly just awaiting fixes from implementors.
  276. # [18:12] * sylvaing B&B still makes me think bed and breakfast.
  277. # [18:12] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: These bugs are in Webkit's bug report, but I dunno what's been worked on.
  278. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> smfr: I haven't been able to work on several. I know that [some involving intrinsic] are outstanding, but I'm not aware of issues for the others.
  279. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> glazou: A lot of these are related to print, and we have only one impl passing for a lot of them.
  280. # [18:13] * bradk has dead phone...
  281. # [18:13] <Zakim> +dsinger
  282. # [18:13] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.110.233)
  283. # [18:13] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  284. # [18:13] * dbaron Zakim, mute dsinger
  285. # [18:13] * Zakim dsinger should now be muted
  286. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> howcome: If print is blocking here, did ChrisL run any of them through Prince?
  287. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> ChrisL: I've done a few of them, yes.
  288. # [18:14] * dsinger_ thx. 8 AT&T drops so far on this call...
  289. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: One problem is that you have to tweak some of the test for Prince, since it has problems with height:100% on <html>.
  290. # [18:14] <fantasai> For some thests that test pagination
  291. # [18:14] <ChrisL> what is the tweak?
  292. # [18:14] <fantasai> You need to remove height: 100% from the root element
  293. # [18:14] <fantasai> and change the divs' 50% to 11.25cm
  294. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: That's still a valid test.
  295. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: It just used 100%/50% so it would work for all page sizes.
  296. # [18:15] <dsinger_> S/thests/tests/
  297. # [18:15] <Zakim> -glazou
  298. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: But Prince has trouble with height:100%, so the 50% height on div doesn't work.
  299. # [18:15] <ChrisL> ok so those tests are not explicitly testing height 100%
  300. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: The 11.25cm does the same thing, assuming normal page size.
  301. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Like allowed-page-break-001a.
  302. # [18:15] <Zakim> +??P0
  303. # [18:15] <glazou> Zakim, ??P0 is me
  304. # [18:15] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  305. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> johnjan: I don't htink we need to go through all of these, right? We already went through these at the mini-f2f.
  306. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> johnjan: We've already covered all of these, so they're no longer significantly blocking, right?
  307. # [18:16] <dsinger_> S/htink/think/
  308. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> glazou: My question as a chair is *when* these will be addressed?
  309. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: If you look at the blocking link, you see that most of the tests were fixed, and for the rest we're expecting impls.
  310. # [18:17] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: [talk about specific tests and their status in impls]
  311. # [18:18] <fantasai> quotes-035
  312. # [18:18] <fantasai> replaced-intrinsic-ratio-001
  313. # [18:18] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/blocking
  314. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> howcome: Can you list the tests that Opera needs to pass?
  315. # [18:18] <ChrisL> http://test.csswg.org/harness/testcase?s=CSS21_HTML&c=quotes-035
  316. # [18:18] <dbaron> for details on quotes-035 and Opera: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2011Jan/0095.html
  317. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> johnjan: Look at the blocking list - it shows which ones Opera can fix.
  318. # [18:18] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/blocking#tests-needing-breakup-or-implementation
  319. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: The open questions are at the bottom of the list.
  320. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: The three at the bottom are ones we don't have a plan for.
  321. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: They're passed by Prince, and seem to be correct, but don't have expected implementations anywhere else.
  322. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> howcome: What about Antenna House?
  323. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> johnjan: No, they didn't pass.
  324. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Can we expect implementations, or are they at-risk?
  325. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: In orphans-004a, it's a parsing test. Should be straightforward to fix.
  326. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: If Opera or IE9 fixes the parsing bug it would pass.
  327. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I think Opera accepts numbers rather than integers, and IE9 accepts 0.
  328. # [18:21] <Zakim> + +1.650.766.aagg
  329. # [18:21] <TabAtkins_> glazou: So, Moz/Opera/IE, is there something you can do here?
  330. # [18:21] <bradk> Zakim, aagg is me
  331. # [18:21] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
  332. # [18:21] <TabAtkins_> howcome: I'm taking notes here. It's hard to promise, but I'll do my best.
  333. # [18:21] <TabAtkins_> johnjan: I'm taking a look at it right now.
  334. # [18:22] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: We'd have to implement orphans in the first place, so it's not just a parsing bug for us.
  335. # [18:22] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: When I get a break from writing specs, I'll implement it.
  336. # [18:23] <TabAtkins_> glazou: That's the end of the list. Is there anything else about CSS 2.1?
  337. # [18:23] <TabAtkins_> johnjan: There's the open issues list.
  338. # [18:23] <johnjan> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1
  339. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> johnjan: There's like 4 that bert needs to edit, 4 that need proposals, and 4 that need testcases. 40 or so that have been edited and updated, but just need to be reviewed.
  340. # [18:24] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.110.233) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi)
  341. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> johnjan: i sent an email hoping that they could get done before the telcon, but stuff was too busy.
  342. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> johnjan: So can we get promises to get these done this week?
  343. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Bert, can you do your edits this week?
  344. # [18:25] <TabAtkins_> Bert: Haven't looked at them recently, but I assume so, yes.
  345. # [18:25] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Reviews should be done offline.
  346. # [18:25] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I can do those this week.
  347. # [18:25] <ChrisL> what is the list of tests needing reviews?
  348. # [18:25] <fantasai> ACTION: Bert to finish outstanding 2.1 edits
  349. # [18:25] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  350. # [18:25] * RRSAgent records action 1
  351. # [18:25] <TabAtkins_> johnjan: First that needs proposal is 181.
  352. # [18:25] <trackbot> Created ACTION-293 - Finish outstanding 2.1 edits [on Bert Bos - due 2011-02-16].
  353. # [18:25] <fantasai> ACTION: fantasai to review edits
  354. # [18:25] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  355. # [18:25] * RRSAgent records action 2
  356. # [18:25] <trackbot> Created ACTION-294 - Review edits [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-02-16].
  357. # [18:25] <TabAtkins_> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-181
  358. # [18:25] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Elika, can you summarize?
  359. # [18:28] * fantasai looks
  360. # [18:28] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0010.html
  361. # [18:28] <fantasai> Seems there's a bunch of editorial suggestions
  362. # [18:28] <fantasai> the significant ones start at "Alternative construction for line box height calculation"
  363. # [18:29] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I think the prose that adjusts the guide boxes (?) makes sense, and is probably less confusing to our current text.
  364. # [18:29] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.32.11)
  365. # [18:29] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  366. # [18:30] <Zakim> -dsinger
  367. # [18:30] <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
  368. # [18:30] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  369. # [18:30] <Zakim> -glazou
  370. # [18:31] <Zakim> +??P0
  371. # [18:31] <glazou> Zakim, ??P0 is me
  372. # [18:31] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  373. # [18:31] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: My suggestion is that Bert looks this section over - it's in his focus area - and go through that email and make whatever edits seem good, then post a diff for review.
  374. # [18:32] <johnjan> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-192
  375. # [18:32] <TabAtkins_> Bert: This won't happen this week, but maybe in time for next telcon.
  376. # [18:32] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Anything about the testcase at the end of the email?
  377. # [18:32] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: That might be an interesting example.
  378. # [18:33] <johnjan> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-199
  379. # [18:33] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: 192 is mine. Sorry, I'll get it done this week and post to the list.
  380. # [18:35] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I haven't gotten feedback on my 199 proposal yet. I'm not happy with it conceptually (positioned elements should generate an inline placeholder, which *should* make a linebox), but it matches implementations.
  381. # [18:35] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-199
  382. # [18:36] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: Email me or him to get us to look at the proposal again.
  383. # [18:36] <johnjan> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-c
  384. # [18:37] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I guess I can write that text.
  385. # [18:37] <TabAtkins_> ACTION fantasai to write text for issue C.
  386. # [18:37] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  387. # [18:37] <trackbot> Created ACTION-295 - Write text for issue C. [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-02-16].
  388. # [18:38] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I need to update the issues list, so we may get a few more.
  389. # [18:38] <TabAtkins_> johnjan: Will you have time to go through the issues list and find all the open ones?
  390. # [18:38] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Dunno. The date of my last review is at the top of that page. If anyone else is doing work, please update that date.
  391. # [18:39] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: It looks like there's a continuation on a separate issues list.
  392. # [18:39] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Yeah, I'm thinking I should merge the two.
  393. # [18:39] <Zakim> +SteveZ.a
  394. # [18:39] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  395. # [18:39] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Next item. B&B.
  396. # [18:40] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: So, what's the status?
  397. # [18:40] <TabAtkins_> Bert: I failed to get ???'s attention, so we didn't get a telcon.
  398. # [18:40] <TabAtkins_> Bert: I'm hoping to get another one this Friday so we can try again.
  399. # [18:40] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Peter won't be available this friday. I *hope* to be so, but won't know for sure until noon thursday.
  400. # [18:41] <Bert> s/???/Ralph/
  401. # [18:41] <fantasai> s/???/Ralph/
  402. # [18:41] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Next item on the agenda, CSS Variables.
  403. # [18:41] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I'd like to request CSS3 Text because I'd like to get a draft out there, and I'd like to get a chance to discuss that.
  404. # [18:41] <TabAtkins_> glazou: I think there is at least one urgent point about variables, first.
  405. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Variables are extremely visible to the public. Webdevs want it, they request it loudly.
  406. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> glazou: We have to be extra careful with our communication here.
  407. # [18:42] <fantasai> glazou: A lot of people understood from your email, Tab, that "it's going to be implemented that way"
  408. # [18:42] <fantasai> glazou: And that's not good from WG perspective
  409. # [18:42] <fantasai> Tab: That wasn't what I meant. It's just an experimental implementation.
  410. # [18:43] <fantasai> glazou: I suggest you post a draft for discussion.
  411. # [18:43] <fantasai> glazou: Second point, Tab's proposal introduces $ for delimiting variables
  412. # [18:43] <dbaron> (Is $ easily available on keyboards around the world?)
  413. # [18:43] <fantasai> glazou: It changes a lot the way we introduce new idents inside CSS. So please review and comment.
  414. # [18:44] * TabAtkins_ dbaron, I dunno.
  415. # [18:44] <fantasai> glazou: Taking comments on variables for next 5 minutes.
  416. # [18:44] <fantasai> Stevez: What I found confusing was, what is the token stream?
  417. # [18:44] <fantasai> Tab: The exact answer for what's a valid value of a variable is is a little in the air. Need a lot of work to make sure that's very clear.
  418. # [18:45] <fantasai> Tab: High-level answer is, something that's a value in CSS.
  419. # [18:45] <fantasai> fantasai: I think you want some number of component values up to a full property value
  420. # [18:46] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Next topic. CSS3 text.
  421. # [18:46] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: What's blocking an updated WD?
  422. # [18:46] <TabAtkins_> howcome: I'm having some trouble hearing todya.
  423. # [18:46] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/
  424. # [18:46] <TabAtkins_> howcome: I expressed in an email that I'd like the GCPM functionality to move over without changes, and then have changes down afterwards.
  425. # [18:46] <Zakim> -glazou
  426. # [18:46] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/#hyphenation-resource
  427. # [18:46] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  428. # [18:46] <TabAtkins_> howcome: In particular, the @hyphenate-resource was added, when it was a 'hyphenate-resource' property in GCPM.
  429. # [18:46] * sylvaing was totally looking for Variables in GCPM #badhabits
  430. # [18:46] <Zakim> +??P0
  431. # [18:46] <glazou> Zakim:
  432. # [18:47] <glazou> Zakim, ??P0 is me
  433. # [18:47] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  434. # [18:47] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Apple] (8%), bradk (8%), howcome (27%), TabAtkins_ (3%)
  435. # [18:47] <fantasai> howcome: both are in the draft right now. I would like one or the other.
  436. # [18:47] <dsinger> zakim, who is on the phone?
  437. # [18:47] <Zakim> On the phone I see gsnedders, smfr, fantasai, johnjan, [Microsoft], cesar, kojiishi, dbaron, [Microsoft.a], TabAtkins_, ChrisL, howcome, Bert, bradk, [Apple], SteveZ.a, glazou
  438. # [18:47] <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
  439. # [18:47] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has arronei
  440. # [18:47] <TabAtkins_> howcome: We spent a lot of time on the property as a WG, and we had consensus.
  441. # [18:47] * dsinger haakon, your voice is bubbling quite a lot...speak slowly...
  442. # [18:48] <TabAtkins_> howcome: In the moving process, I don't think we should say one or the other. We should say "this is what we have", and then add issues.
  443. # [18:48] <TabAtkins_> howcome: But I think putting them on equal footing deteriorates the quality of the draft.
  444. # [18:48] <TabAtkins_> howcome: I would like to try and preserve what has been done, and hyphenate-resource has been discussed at length in the WG, been implemented, and is in use.
  445. # [18:48] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  446. # [18:48] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Client exited)
  447. # [18:49] <TabAtkins_> howcome: I think the changes should come as a result of discussions, not as a result of moving.
  448. # [18:49] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: The @-rule came as a result of discussion at the f2f, so I consider it my duty as an editor to include the proposal.
  449. # [18:49] <TabAtkins_> howcome: I think it can be in the draft but not on equal footing, as I don't think we made that decision.
  450. # [18:49] <TabAtkins_> glazou: I don't understand you, howcome. It's a WD, not a CR. Everything can change.
  451. # [18:50] <TabAtkins_> howcome: In the ED that's fine, but in the WD we should try and preserve consensus.
  452. # [18:50] <TabAtkins_> howcome: The consensus may change in the end, that's fine. But by giving two proposals equal footing, it makes it less obvious what's going on.
  453. # [18:50] <TabAtkins_> szilles: Can you suggest wording that makes it not equal footing that elika can use?
  454. # [18:51] <TabAtkins_> howcome: I can - I think we can call it an issue. That's what we've done before.
  455. # [18:51] <TabAtkins_> glazou: So you're suggetsing a note in the doc saying "Another proposal for this is an @-rule, etc."?
  456. # [18:51] <TabAtkins_> howcome: Yes.
  457. # [18:51] <TabAtkins_> glazou: That's fine by me.
  458. # [18:52] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: It's not a question of grammar, it's a technical problem.
  459. # [18:52] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Make @hyphenate-resource into an issue in CSS3 Text. AFter doing so, ready to publish.
  460. # [18:53] <TabAtkins_> howcome: You may want to add another issue, regarding the format of the hyphenate resource files.
  461. # [18:53] <TabAtkins_> smfr: Already an issue there.
  462. # [18:54] * smfr mumbles something about video codecs
  463. # [18:55] <Zakim> -gsnedders
  464. # [18:55] <TabAtkins_> [chatter about the format of hyphenation resources]
  465. # [18:55] * Bert wonders if there are as many patenty son hyphenation dicts as on video codecs :-)
  466. # [18:55] <glazou> or fonts
  467. # [18:55] <TabAtkins_> howcome: I think there's consensus to add an issue about the hyphenation resource format.
  468. # [18:55] <dsinger> having lots of formats, and making sites somehow supply the right format for the browser it has in hand, would be ... ugly...
  469. # [18:56] * dbaron has to leave a few minutes early today
  470. # [18:56] <TabAtkins_> glazou: I don't know if we have time for multicol algos this week. I'll put it in second position, after css2.1 issues.
  471. # [18:56] <Zakim> +Bert.a
  472. # [18:56] <TabAtkins_> howcome: Can we get Alex to call in?
  473. # [18:56] <TabAtkins_> johnjan: I can get him to call in.
  474. # [18:56] <fantasai> file:///home/fantasai/w3c/csswg/css3-text/Overview.html#hyphenation-resource
  475. # [18:57] <Zakim> -dbaron
  476. # [18:57] * glazou drinks the "grenadine" of his children... yum
  477. # [18:58] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/#hyphenation-resource
  478. # [18:58] * TabAtkins_ missed what Sylvain's comment was.
  479. # [18:58] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: In that branch, the more columns you squeeze in, the less content you get.
  480. # [18:59] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: I see the goal is to make more columns and thus more content, but in practice it reduces the amount of content, due to pushing in a new column gap.
  481. # [18:59] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: So I suggest looking at the ratio of whitespace to content after each change, and see what the right answer is.
  482. # [18:59] <TabAtkins_> howcome: I know there's some weird stuff, but the aim is to make things more stable. Previous we went from 3->2->1 columns over the space of two pixels.
  483. # [19:00] * fantasai would like to know if howcome is satisfied with the current editors draft and if so if we can publish css3-text
  484. # [19:00] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: For me the real scenario is people snapping their window to half of the screen in W7 and suddenly the content area is shrunk in half.
  485. # [19:00] <Zakim> -Bert
  486. # [19:00] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: In those scenarios it's better for the user if we can make less columns and thus less column gap.
  487. # [19:01] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: My feel is that you were trying to fit in more columns in the assumption that you get more content, which isn't necessarily true.
  488. # [19:01] <TabAtkins_> howcome: Alex had a suggestion that we go straight to 1 col when we hit that. Another is that columns get stuck there, and designers learn to not make wide columns.
  489. # [19:01] <TabAtkins_> howcome: I don't think it's necessarily a huge issue.
  490. # [19:01] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Table the rest of the discussion for next week.
  491. # [19:02] <TabAtkins_> szilles: +1 for what sylvain is saying.
  492. # [19:02] <Zakim> -glazou
  493. # [19:02] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I made the changes to the draft. Does howcome find them satisfactory?
  494. # [19:02] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/#hyphenation-resource
  495. # [19:02] <glazou> hold on !
  496. # [19:02] * TabAtkins_ GLAZOU NO WE'RE DECIDING
  497. # [19:02] * TabAtkins_ WITHOUT YOU
  498. # [19:02] <Zakim> +??P0
  499. # [19:02] <TabAtkins_> howcome: That's acceptable to me.
  500. # [19:03] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Is the edit only the redness on the paragraph?
  501. # [19:03] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: That, and I put the explanation of the issue to the top of the definition.
  502. # [19:03] <TabAtkins_> howcome: I'd like to see "Issue" in there.
  503. # [19:03] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I can put "Issue: " there.
  504. # [19:04] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Publish CSS3 Text as WD.
  505. # [19:04] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  506. # [19:04] <TabAtkins_> howcome: I'd like to hear more proposals on the multicol thread.
  507. # [19:04] <Zakim> -SteveZ.a
  508. # [19:04] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  509. # [19:04] <Zakim> -johnjan
  510. # [19:04] <Zakim> -howcome
  511. # [19:04] <Zakim> -smfr
  512. # [19:04] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  513. # [19:04] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  514. # [19:04] <Zakim> -??P0
  515. # [19:04] <Bert> (Isn't the issue just that there is no minimum column width?)
  516. # [19:04] <Zakim> -bradk
  517. # [19:04] <fantasai> whew
  518. # [19:04] <Zakim> -kojiishi
  519. # [19:04] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
  520. # [19:04] * Quits: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  521. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Bert.a
  522. # [19:04] <Zakim> -fantasai
  523. # [19:04] * fantasai is glad to be able to publish WD!
  524. # [19:05] <TabAtkins_> Bert: Propose a property!
  525. # [19:05] <glazou> eheh
  526. # [19:05] <Zakim> -cesar
  527. # [19:05] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  528. # [19:05] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, +44.131.208.aaaa, gsnedders, dsinger, +1.408.636.aabb, smfr, +1.415.920.aacc, johnjan, arronei, fantasai, +34.60.940.aadd, cesar, kojiishi, [Microsoft],
  529. # [19:05] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Btw, got our rooms in Tokyo all reserved and ready.
  530. # [19:05] <Zakim> ... dbaron, +1.650.214.aaee, ChrisL, TabAtkins_, +47.21.65.aaff, howcome, Bert, SteveZ, +1.650.766.aagg, bradk
  531. # [19:05] <glazou> TabAtkins_: howcome hates even more new properties than he hates last minute changes ;-)
  532. # [19:05] <Bert> No, I didn't mean a property. I meant in the algo.
  533. # [19:05] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.32.11) (Quit: dsinger)
  534. # [19:05] * Parts: smfr (smfr@68.183.195.83)
  535. # [19:06] <TabAtkins_> Bert: Oh, just like "no matter what, don't shrink columns to less than 5ems wide?
  536. # [19:06] <Bert> Yes, something like that.
  537. # [19:06] <Bert> But the actual amount is hard to define, maybe just some rule of thumb.
  538. # [19:07] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  539. # [19:09] <Bert> Maybe the minimum is 10% of the gap width. I have no typographic reason for that, but it makes the formula easy. :-)
  540. # [19:09] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (tabatkins@216.239.45.4) (Ping timeout)
  541. # [19:12] <TabAtkins> Bert: If the goal is to preserve content readability in degenerate situations, I don't think a % of the gap width is useful.
  542. # [19:12] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  543. # [19:14] * Quits: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22) (Quit: oyvind)
  544. # [19:14] <fantasai> TabAtkins: update to css3-images checked in, finally; notes in the cvs log
  545. # [19:15] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240) (Ping timeout)
  546. # [19:16] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Cool, will check it out now.
  547. # [19:17] * Quits: howcome (howcome@80.203.20.196) (Ping timeout)
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  549. # [19:25] * Parts: cesar (acebal@85.152.178.140)
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  551. # [19:28] <TabAtkins> fantasai: The default object size in various properties shoudln't be an example, as it's normative text.
  552. # [19:28] <fantasai> TabAtkins: it shouldn't be normative text because it should be defined by those properties
  553. # [19:28] <fantasai> TabAtkins: if a property doesn't define its default object size, it's an error in that spec
  554. # [19:28] <TabAtkins> Okay, then I'll put an issue note in the example that these will be defined by the individual properties.
  555. # [19:29] <fantasai> TabAtkins: having css3-images define them would be like having a library function that defines its arguments depending on who called it, instead of having the callers send in their arguments :)
  556. # [19:30] <TabAtkins> Hey, clean OO design is a controversial subject. ^_^
  557. # [19:30] * fantasai headdesk
  558. # [19:30] <fantasai> ohyeah, I forgot to add to the cvs comment...
  559. # [19:30] <fantasai> I'm not sure what to do about the heading levels
  560. # [19:31] <fantasai> I stuck them in as h4 no-num
  561. # [19:31] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  562. # [19:31] <TabAtkins> Why is that an issue?
  563. # [19:31] <fantasai> but I think that whole section needs some consideration on that point
  564. # [19:31] <TabAtkins> I agree that it needs some changing. I think we should split out the sizing section into a new top-level section.
  565. # [19:31] <fantasai> or split off the property defs into their own section
  566. # [19:32] <TabAtkins> Yeah, same diff. Section 6 just needs to be split, period.
  567. # [19:32] <fantasai> yeah
  568. # [19:32] * fantasai pulls up the TOC
  569. # [19:32] <fantasai> btw
  570. # [19:32] <fantasai> the reason I gave up on using <div>s to mark sections in CSS specs
  571. # [19:32] <fantasai> is because sections change levels and move around a fair bit
  572. # [19:32] <TabAtkins> I gave up on them for Lists, and would like to go back and give up on them for this and Flexbox too.
  573. # [19:32] <fantasai> yeah
  574. # [19:32] <fantasai> let's do it
  575. # [19:33] <TabAtkins> kk, I'll do the reformat.
  576. # [19:33] <fantasai> kk :)
  577. # [19:33] * fantasai will study the toc
  578. # [19:33] <fantasai> ^_^
  579. # [19:33] <fantasai> I think the image-* sections should go in their own top-level
  580. # [19:33] <fantasai> object-fit / object-position are pretty closely related to everything else going on here
  581. # [19:34] <TabAtkins> btw, do you know how to make CVS stop asking for the password on every operation?
  582. # [19:34] <fantasai> so should probably stay
  583. # [19:34] <fantasai> voodoo magic
  584. # [19:34] * fantasai digs up the spellbook
  585. # [19:35] <fantasai> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Using_SSH_to_connect_to_CVS#Avoiding_passphrase_requests
  586. # [19:35] <TabAtkins> Btw, the one benefit I did get from using indentation was that it made it easier to quickly scroll through the source. In Lists and Flexbox I'm using a <!-- === --> line between sections to visually mark section breaks.
  587. # [19:35] <fantasai> Oh, totally understand that.
  588. # [19:35] <fantasai> what I did in css3-writing-modes
  589. # [19:35] <fantasai> is to indent all text one level
  590. # [19:35] <fantasai> *except* the headings
  591. # [19:35] <fantasai> which I format as
  592. # [19:36] <fantasai> <h4 id="foobar">
  593. # [19:36] <fantasai> Title of Section
  594. # [19:36] * Joins: dbaron_ (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  595. # [19:36] <fantasai> er, with the </h4> at the end of Title of Section
  596. # [19:36] <fantasai> Which puts the title of the section right at the left margin
  597. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> So on two lines? Interesting.
  598. # [19:37] <fantasai> <h2 id="vertical-intro">
  599. # [19:37] <fantasai> Introduction to Vertical Text</h2>
  600. # [19:37] <fantasai> <p>In addition to extensions to CSS2.1
  601. # [19:37] <fantasai> er
  602. # [19:37] <fantasai> <h2 id="vertical-intro">
  603. # [19:37] <fantasai> Introduction to Vertical Text</h2>
  604. # [19:37] <fantasai> <p>In addition to extensions to CSS2.1
  605. # [19:37] <fantasai> Since *everything* is indented, other than the header,
  606. # [19:37] <fantasai> it's easy to scan for the sections
  607. # [19:37] <TabAtkins> I've come to appreciate the benefit of having most of my text not need indentation when I linewrap, so I think I'll stick with mine, but that sounds good too.
  608. # [19:38] <fantasai> and since the header is at the left margin, it's easy to see which section you're at
  609. # [19:38] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240) (Ping timeout)
  610. # [19:39] * fantasai tends to get lost when there's no indentation structure at all
  611. # [19:39] <fantasai> this is my compromise between reorg-ability and readability :)
  612. # [19:39] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I'm trying to change my practices to make reorganization less diff-painful.
  613. # [19:39] <fantasai> I do indent for any nesting beyond the sectioning, of course
  614. # [19:42] <fantasai> TabAtkins: wrt linewrapping... I guess you could un-indent the paragraph when you're editing, and indent it when you're done?
  615. # [19:42] <fantasai> presumably indenting/unindenting has keyboard shortcuts in your editor
  616. # [19:43] <fantasai> I tend not to mind one level of indentation; it's not too bothersome
  617. # [19:43] <fantasai> especially since you're using tabs in css3-images :)
  618. # [19:44] <TabAtkins> Tabs are the best. I don't understand everyone's attachment to spaces. >_<
  619. # [19:44] <TabAtkins> Hixie used spaces in Lists, and as a result the indentation was inconsistent all over.
  620. # [19:45] <fantasai> for me, it's mainly because of Mozilla's coding guidelines :)
  621. # [19:45] * fantasai has therefore the habit of two spaces
  622. # [19:45] <TabAtkins> Yeah, we use spaces for indenting in webkit code.
  623. # [19:46] <TabAtkins> I forget whether it's 2 or 4 spaces. I think it varies between webkit and google style.
  624. # [19:46] <fantasai> probably because most people who use tabs don't understand how to use them effectively for indentation
  625. # [19:46] <fantasai> it defaults to 8 spaces, which is absurd
  626. # [19:47] <TabAtkins> True fact.
  627. # [19:47] <plinss> tab expansion is different in a number of different tools...
  628. # [19:47] <TabAtkins> If by "expansion" you mean "visual width of tabs", *that's the point*.
  629. # [19:47] <plinss> if you mix tabs and spaces, you'll eventually find your file with the formatting all messed up
  630. # [19:47] <TabAtkins> Yup, so don't. ^_^
  631. # [19:47] <plinss> if you use only tabs or only spaces you're ok
  632. # [19:47] <TabAtkins> Right.
  633. # [19:47] <fantasai> TabAtkins: btw, if you think you can stand one level of indentation, I'd prefer to do that in css3-images
  634. # [19:48] <TabAtkins> fantasai: You mean your approach?
  635. # [19:48] <fantasai> yeah
  636. # [19:48] <TabAtkins> Let me finish this no-indent reformat, then I'll quickly switch to your method and see how it looks.
  637. # [19:48] <fantasai> kk :)
  638. # [19:48] <TabAtkins> I just want to find a single readable style I can use everywhere. If we can match our styles, all the better, because then we won't fight when editting together.
  639. # [19:49] <TabAtkins> Plus then we can present a united front and create a required style guideline doc.
  640. # [19:49] <fantasai> um
  641. # [19:49] <fantasai> I don't think anyone cares about the indentation of our spec source code :)
  642. # [19:50] <fantasai> except the persons editing those particular specs
  643. # [19:50] <TabAtkins> Exactly. And when I try to edit a spec that someone else used bad indentation on, it makes me crazy.
  644. # [19:50] <fantasai> then fix it and set a good example
  645. # [19:52] * fantasai is actually in the process of transitioning headers to the style described above; most of them are still all on one line (still outdented, though)
  646. # [19:52] * fantasai remembers about breakfast
  647. # [19:53] <TabAtkins> Haha, a bit late for that.
  648. # [19:54] <fantasai> it's still my break-fast!
  649. # [19:54] <fantasai> it's even still morning
  650. # [19:56] * fantasai didn't get much sleep last night and is soooo much less cranky than yesterday. go figure
  651. # [19:58] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.101) (Connection reset by peer)
  652. # [20:02] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Is there a reason you used a character reference rather than the character itself in the "CSS<=>Object Negation" heading?
  653. # [20:05] <fantasai> um
  654. # [20:05] <fantasai> no, actually
  655. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> Kk, just checking before I replaced.
  656. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> Oh. Wow. What? My desktops just transposed vertically.
  657. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> 1-3 moved to the bottom row, and 4-6 moved to the top row. Wtf?
  658. # [20:07] <fantasai> you must've hit the flip shortcut
  659. # [20:07] * fantasai has one of those, too
  660. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> ...
  661. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> There's a shortcut for flipping?
  662. # [20:08] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.101)
  663. # [20:08] <fantasai> well, I don't know about *your* window manager
  664. # [20:08] <fantasai> but mine has that option
  665. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> This is silly.
  666. # [20:08] <fantasai> granted mine does it with tiles, not desktops
  667. # [20:11] * Quits: johnjan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  668. # [20:31] <fantasai> TabAtkins: btw, check in your indentation changes as a whitespace-only checkin before you go around fixing other stuff
  669. # [20:31] <TabAtkins> Yeah, definitely.
  670. # [20:31] <TabAtkins> I'm nearly done adjusting to your requested indentation, and I think I like it.
  671. # [20:31] * fantasai did <b> -> <i> as a separate checkin
  672. # [20:31] <fantasai> cool
  673. # [20:31] <fantasai> :)
  674. # [20:32] <TabAtkins> Yeah, combined with my <!-- === -->, it's very readable.
  675. # [20:32] <TabAtkins> I think better than either of them alone.
  676. # [20:33] <TabAtkins> Now, meeting time to talk about our plans to actually support pagination!
  677. # [20:33] <fantasai> eh?
  678. # [20:36] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (tabatkins@216.239.45.4)
  679. # [20:50] * fantasai wonders if it would help if the Director's office used a bugtracker to track transition approval requests
  680. # [20:50] <fantasai> and committed itself checking the tracker every Thursday or something
  681. # [20:51] <fantasai> kindof like patch review requests
  682. # [20:59] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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  692. # Session Close: Thu Feb 10 00:00:00 2011

The end :)