/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2011-08-24 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  51. # [18:01] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/24-css-irc
  52. # [18:01] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  53. # [18:01] <plinss> zakim, this will be style
  54. # [18:01] <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
  55. # [18:01] <plinss> rrsagent, make logs public
  56. # [18:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, plinss
  57. # [18:01] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  58. # [18:01] <Zakim> +??P0
  59. # [18:02] <florian> Zakim, I am ??P0
  60. # [18:02] <Zakim> +florian; got it
  61. # [18:02] <Zakim> +plinss
  62. # [18:03] * plinss zakim acting strange this morning...
  63. # [18:03] <Zakim> +nimbu
  64. # [18:04] <Zakim> +stearns
  65. # [18:04] <Zakim> -plinss
  66. # [18:05] <Zakim> +plinss
  67. # [18:05] <Zakim> -plinss
  68. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  69. # [18:05] <Zakim> +hober
  70. # [18:07] <nimbupani> paging TabAtkins
  71. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.858.354.aaaa
  72. # [18:07] <plinss> zakim, aaaa is me
  73. # [18:07] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
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  76. # [18:08] <Zakim> +dsinger
  77. # [18:08] * dsinger zakim, mute dsinger
  78. # [18:08] * Zakim dsinger should now be muted
  79. # [18:08] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  80. # [18:08] * dsinger and the top of a stylin' mornin' to you all
  81. # [18:08] <Zakim> + +2aabb
  82. # [18:09] <Zakim> +fantasai
  83. # [18:09] * Joins: vhardy (vhardy@192.150.10.201)
  84. # [18:09] <nimbupani> i can do that.
  85. # [18:09] * dsinger wow.
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  87. # [18:09] <nimbupani> fantasai: sez she cant take minutes
  88. # [18:09] * dsinger I think Elika is in a high-speed bathtub and can't take minutes
  89. # [18:09] <nimbupani> hahhahahahaaa
  90. # [18:09] <Zakim> +??P15
  91. # [18:10] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  92. # [18:10] * Joins: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  93. # [18:10] <JohnJansen> zakim, microsoft has JohnJansen
  94. # [18:10] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
  95. # [18:11] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_
  96. # [18:11] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  97. # [18:11] <Zakim> -fantasai
  98. # [18:11] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
  99. # [18:11] <Zakim> +fantasai
  100. # [18:12] <nimbupani> yes
  101. # [18:12] <nimbupani> plinss: anyone else has anything to add to the agenda?
  102. # [18:12] <nimbupani> plinss: bunch of publishing requests
  103. # [18:12] <nimbupani> plinss: css3-texts and writing modes.
  104. # [18:13] <nimbupani> SteveZ: John sent a note about writing modes
  105. # [18:13] <nimbupani> florian: the wording is not strong enough about being an unresolved problem here and he put out an alternative wording
  106. # [18:13] * Joins: Cathy (Cathy@192.100.104.170)
  107. # [18:13] <nimbupani> fantasai: is that something I can fix and publish? or should I hold off?
  108. # [18:13] <nimbupani> SteveZ; the wording was only two sentences. Cant speak for John
  109. # [18:14] <Zakim> +alexmog
  110. # [18:14] * nimbupani florian reads from the email
  111. # [18:14] <nimbupani> fantasai: that is not actually possible. we can get close to itb ut there is a problem with characters like quotes, where default orientation needs to be upright if its supported.
  112. # [18:14] <Zakim> -florian
  113. # [18:15] * dsinger ow, too much traffic noise, not enough signal
  114. # [18:15] <nimbupani> stevez: that is not how vertical tables work
  115. # [18:15] <Zakim> +??P0
  116. # [18:15] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_
  117. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> Excellent, now my phone works.
  118. # [18:15] <florian> Zakim, I am ??P0
  119. # [18:15] <Zakim> +florian; got it
  120. # [18:15] <nimbupani> stevez: that is separate. you cant expect a vertical table to tell you what to do for the orientation
  121. # [18:15] <Zakim> + +2aacc
  122. # [18:16] <arno> Zakim, I am aacc
  123. # [18:16] <Zakim> +arno; got it
  124. # [18:16] <nimbupani> florian: we agree there is a difficult problem here, rather than saying we "may" try we should say we "will" try.
  125. # [18:16] <nimbupani> florian: it is not guaranteed that we will successfully find a solution.
  126. # [18:17] <vhardy> s/itb ut/it but
  127. # [18:17] <nimbupani> stevez: JOhn publsihed a test case that shows that there is no uniform implementation across browsers, and none of the existing unicode properties would allow you to map to the upright characters. The point being there is no simple solution and cant say what the browsers do, and cant say do what unicode does.
  128. # [18:17] <nimbupani> stevez: there is a separate effort to define a unicode property to define implementation, but thats separate.
  129. # [18:18] <nimbupani> fantasai: we have a very long list of exceptions.
  130. # [18:18] <nimbupani> fantasai: in some cases intentionally so, and we do not have a good answer yet.
  131. # [18:19] <nimbupani> plinss: are we in agreement with John's sentiment here?
  132. # [18:19] <nimbupani> plinss: anyone opposed to that.
  133. # [18:19] <nimbupani> plinss: i take that as a consensus
  134. # [18:20] <nimbupani> florian: i am not sure about how to resolve the issue, but i am with him on the concern on that.
  135. # [18:20] <nimbupani> fantasai: i would like to take a quick look at florian's issue.
  136. # [18:20] <nimbupani> fantasai: i have a patch for that I want to check with the rest of the people here before I check that in.
  137. # [18:20] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  138. # [18:20] <nimbupani> florian: i have not been able to look at my mail last weekend
  139. # [18:20] * Joins: bradk (bradk@166.205.138.226)
  140. # [18:20] <nimbupani> fantasai: i think its a good idea.
  141. # [18:20] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@24.6.120.172)
  142. # [18:21] <nimbupani> fantasai: i linked to it from my message requesting publication.
  143. # [18:21] <florian> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Aug/0427.html
  144. # [18:21] <nimbupani> florian: there are 2 types of values in text-combine-horizontal property.
  145. # [18:22] <nimbupani> florian: i am suggesting we can split these into two properties. the vis effect of squeeze text in is likely to be the same across document
  146. # [18:22] <nimbupani> florian: if you split them it would reduce repetition
  147. # [18:22] <nimbupani> florian: I do not have a good name for that.
  148. # [18:22] <nimbupani> florian: what do people think about the idea.
  149. # [18:23] <nimbupani> szilles: i have not thought about it, what you are saying makes sense. I prefer in general binary switch for turning things off and on, and a different property for the variance
  150. # [18:23] <nimbupani> florian: thats my idea as well
  151. # [18:23] <nimbupani> plinss: do we have any suggestions on this?
  152. # [18:23] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
  153. # [18:23] <nimbupani> florian: so we agree to split?
  154. # [18:23] <arronei> zakim, microsoft.aa is me
  155. # [18:23] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  156. # [18:23] <nimbupani> fantasai: i put text-combine-mode in my draft
  157. # [18:23] <nimbupani> florian: its better than what I said
  158. # [18:24] <nimbupani> plinss: are we happy to publish with that change
  159. # [18:24] <nimbupani> szilles: yeah, it is still a draft
  160. # [18:24] <nimbupani> szilles: i think the principle that florian is espousing is a good princile
  161. # [18:24] <nimbupani> s/princile/principle
  162. # [18:25] <nimbupani> RESOLVED publish writing mode working draft with updates mentioned
  163. # [18:25] <nimbupani> florian: I am convinced the wording we now have is a good representation of the conclusion we reached at F2F. so that is solved as far as I am concerned.
  164. # [18:25] <plinss> s/mode/mode and css3 text/
  165. # [18:26] <Zakim> -fantasai
  166. # [18:26] <nimbupani> plinss: when are we going to publish the first draft of Selectors 4. W3C decided to wait until namespaces is out. Should we wait until selectors 3 is a rec or decide to publish it now. Anyone has strong opinions on that?
  167. # [18:26] <Zakim> +fantasai
  168. # [18:26] <nimbupani> ???: with selectors 3 is it just held up by namespaces right now?
  169. # [18:27] <TabAtkins_> s/???/arronei
  170. # [18:27] <TabAtkins_> zakim, mute fantasai
  171. # [18:27] <Zakim> fantasai should now be muted
  172. # [18:27] <nimbupani> szilles: you get less confusion if you wait and publish selectors 4 after the 3 rec goes out
  173. # [18:27] <nimbupani> plinss: i agree, but I am not sure if its that big of a deal
  174. # [18:28] <nimbupani> florian: i think we said the same thing at last f2f. as long as selectors 3 went to rec quickly then we have no issue, how long as we willing to wait.
  175. # [18:28] <TabAtkins_> zakim, unmute fantasai
  176. # [18:28] <Zakim> fantasai should no longer be muted
  177. # [18:28] <nimbupani> plinss: did you see note about updating drafts for epub?
  178. # [18:28] <nimbupani> fantasai: i dont know if fonts draft needs to be published or not.
  179. # [18:29] <nimbupani> plinss: we will discuss those two over email and get some feedback from the editors (who are not here)
  180. # [18:29] <nimbupani> TOPIC: regions
  181. # [18:29] <nimbupani> plinss: display-inside and content property
  182. # [18:29] <nimbupani> plinss: where are we on this
  183. # [18:29] <nimbupani> alexmog: we had a conversation with vhardy we havenot agreed on a resolution.
  184. # [18:30] <TabAtkins_> Darn, I've been muted this whole time.
  185. # [18:30] <nimbupani> alexmog: my issue is using content it has a lot of meaning and behaviour in gneerated content as it interacts iwth model of before and after.
  186. # [18:30] <nimbupani> alexmog: the use of that kind of content, might change the meaning of the element it is in and blows away before and after and we do not mean that content property
  187. # [18:30] <nimbupani> alexmog: display property could be one way to do that or a separate from-flow property
  188. # [18:31] <nimbupani> alexmog: if we had a display-inside property it would say display-inside: region and something else that would say where content comes from. It may be content property
  189. # [18:31] <nimbupani> szilles: we have talked about having a region be a multicol, which is why i am not happy about display-inside: region. I like the principle of having a separate property that turns smthing into region and hten say what properties apply to region rather than putting of content in it turning on.
  190. # [18:32] <nimbupani> alexmog: multicol will be display-inside if display-inside existed
  191. # [18:32] <nimbupani> szilles: why not create a diff property with region yes/no with no as default
  192. # [18:32] * Quits: Cathy (Cathy@192.100.104.170) (Quit: SimpleIRC v2.0.3)
  193. # [18:33] <nimbupani> vhardy: we could also go with the option of alexmog which is you have a flow-from property which would be what you are asking for and also say which region u are applying content form. the only tweak from your proposal alex is that before and after work on a region
  194. # [18:33] <nimbupani> vhardy: we would be okay using flow-from proposal as it is close to what szilles is saying
  195. # [18:34] <nimbupani> szilles: yes and no. it is using to say where text comes from to turn it into a region and I was trying to separate those two, but I am not strongly of any position. I can live with either
  196. # [18:34] <nimbupani> alexmog: similar to float: positioned which we used to trigger exclusions and appears redundant as you also have to use wrap-type everytime you use that property.
  197. # [18:34] <nimbupani> alexmog: so we ended up adopting adobe's solution, and here we use the same
  198. # [18:34] <nimbupani> szilles: it is a valid point, and i can live either way
  199. # [18:35] <nimbupani> fantasai: i think having two properties seems like too many levels of interaction.
  200. # [18:35] <nimbupani> vhardy: i propose we try to resolve on flow-from and having before and after work with current pseudo selectors
  201. # [18:36] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: what happens when you do flow-from form elements that is also a grid or flexbox
  202. # [18:36] <nimbupani> vhardy: we have a resolution that sez you can only turn smthing into a region if it is a block container box
  203. # [18:36] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: the point i wanted display-inside was to prevent unwanted interactions.
  204. # [18:36] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: it is similar to what columns do.
  205. # [18:37] <nimbupani> fantasai: still concerned about the interaction but have nothing concrete to say
  206. # [18:37] <nimbupani> fantasai: interaction with display, and the content property as we are overriding with a different property
  207. # [18:37] <nimbupani> alexmog: flow-from has a very diff meaning from content
  208. # [18:37] <nimbupani> alexmog: content overrides WITHIN the element.
  209. # [18:37] <bradk> What if we had content:flow-from() take the children of the named element, instead of the item itself?
  210. # [18:37] <nimbupani> alexmog: flow-from overrides everything.
  211. # [18:38] <nimbupani> alexmog: that is inside this element. it does not change the meaning of content. it just replaces everything within.
  212. # [18:38] <nimbupani> fantasai: content property was intended to control what the contents are, and now we have another property that does essentially the same thing.
  213. # [18:38] * hober agrees with fantasai
  214. # [18:38] <nimbupani> fantasai: the most obvious thing that is changing is the contents of the element are not being displayed in favour of something else.
  215. # [18:39] <nimbupani> fantasai: seems like a problem to me.
  216. # [18:39] <nimbupani> vhardy: i think it is slightly different
  217. # [18:39] <nimbupani> vhardy: u specify what content goes into the element
  218. # [18:39] <nimbupani> vhardy: pull the content and this will be figured out atlyout.
  219. # [18:39] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@66.109.106.7) (Quit: dsinger)
  220. # [18:39] <nimbupani> alexmog: what content property does is replaces the content of the element
  221. # [18:39] <nimbupani> alexmog: flow-from does is what the box is showing
  222. # [18:39] <TabAtkins_> zakim, mute fantasai
  223. # [18:39] <Zakim> fantasai should now be muted
  224. # [18:40] <TabAtkins_> zakim, unmute fantasai
  225. # [18:40] <Zakim> fantasai should no longer be muted
  226. # [18:40] <hober> Zakim, who is making noise?
  227. # [18:40] <nimbupani> plinss: i had a proposal in kyoto we use flow-from property and then use content property
  228. # [18:40] * nimbupani plinss is breaking off
  229. # [18:40] <Zakim> hober, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: nimbu (100%), plinss (9%), fantasai (24%), TabAtkins_ (14%)
  230. # [18:40] <TabAtkins_> zakim, mute nimbu
  231. # [18:40] <Zakim> nimbu should now be muted
  232. # [18:41] <nimbupani> plinss: maybe we need another keyword to access actual content of the element rather than the flow content
  233. # [18:41] <nimbupani> fantasai: the initial value of content property is normal, so normal computes to diff things depending on what the lement is
  234. # [18:41] <bradk> content:flow-from() could replaces the content of the element with the contents of the flow.
  235. # [18:41] <nimbupani> fantasai: it computes to list marker on a list marker, etc
  236. # [18:42] <nimbupani> plinss: normal could compute to flow-from on elements that have a flow-from
  237. # [18:42] <nimbupani> vhardy: i am not sure i understand what this means
  238. # [18:42] <nimbupani> szilles: the normal behaviour of content is if you say flow-from it sez use it.
  239. # [18:42] <nimbupani> plinss: if you say flow-from and content, content wins so you have a keyword within content.
  240. # [18:43] <nimbupani> vhardy: i think flow-from should win
  241. # [18:43] <nimbupani> s/vhardy/alexmog
  242. # [18:43] <nimbupani> fantasai: i dont want to hold off progress on resolving other issues. i dont want to consider this resolved, but I amf ine with picking a solution and working with it.
  243. # [18:43] <nimbupani> vhardy: what is the solution we are going for?
  244. # [18:44] <nimbupani> alexmog: i completely disagree with that
  245. # [18:44] * nimbupani agrees with alexmog
  246. # [18:44] <nimbupani> szilles: if you want to be able to use ::before and ::after you want to fit it into the model
  247. # [18:44] <nimbupani> alexmog: before and after does not feed into region flow
  248. # [18:44] <nimbupani> szilles: vhardy said he would like to feed into the regions model
  249. # [18:45] <nimbupani> alexmog: i dont know what it would mean to have content before that is float right and ahve that merge with multicol flow
  250. # [18:45] <nimbupani> vhardy: the feedback I got was that we should specify the behavior of before and after when element is a region
  251. # [18:45] <Zakim> + +1.650.766.aadd
  252. # [18:45] <nimbupani> alexmog: for before and after that would be special meaning do something different when they apply to a region
  253. # [18:45] <nimbupani> szilles: it isnt completely different which is why people suggest we use it
  254. # [18:46] <nimbupani> vhardy: can we go with doing a new iteration on ED using flow-from and trying to resolve what we can do with before/after
  255. # [18:47] <nimbupani> vhardy: plinss you talked about using another keyword to define actual content. the proposal in kyoto, there is a separate proposal on adding a 'contents' keyword so you can combine the content that is already there.
  256. # [18:47] <nimbupani> oops
  257. # [18:47] <nimbupani> vhardy: plinss you talked about using another keyword to define actual content.
  258. # [18:47] <nimbupani> plinss: the proposal in kyoto, there is a separate proposal on adding a 'contents' keyword so you can combine the content that is already there.
  259. # [18:47] <nimbupani> plinss: i dont know if we need that, that was a separate proposal
  260. # [18:47] <nimbupani> vhardy: for now we can live without that.
  261. # [18:48] <nimbupani> szilles: i think it would be useful to put the issue under flow from that we need to clarify the interaction between the fow from and the contents property.
  262. # [18:48] <nimbupani> vhardy: i was proposing to say smthing in the draft
  263. # [18:48] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.32.11)
  264. # [18:48] <nimbupani> vhardy: we iterate on the draft and have a new ED proposed for the next F2F, and we can have an issue on the review of the new WD.
  265. # [18:49] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  266. # [18:49] <Zakim> -dsinger
  267. # [18:49] <nimbupani> alexmog: lets keep it an issue.
  268. # [18:49] * dsinger zakim, [apple] has dsinger
  269. # [18:49] * Zakim +dsinger; got it
  270. # [18:49] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: how do I create an issue >_>
  271. # [18:49] * nimbupani or should i?
  272. # [18:49] <nimbupani> vhardy: following the resolution about breaks to be container specific or region specific as decided on Seattle, I aligned it with multicol.
  273. # [18:50] <nimbupani> vhardy: issues i raised on seattle meeting are not region specific they affect multicol pagination as one thing
  274. # [18:50] <nimbupani> vhardy: how do breaks work in nested regions, multicol and when u start combining different kinds of break. it spans regions multicol and pagination
  275. # [18:50] * alexmog have we resolved "use 'flow-from' property to enable regions, add an issue to the draft to define interaction with 'content' and 'contents'" ?
  276. # [18:50] <nimbupani> vhardy: i dont think this is the right place to handle in the regions spec. what do we do about it? do we have a separate spec for breaks?
  277. # [18:51] * florian alexmog: I think so
  278. # [18:51] <nimbupani> alexmog: sorry I forgot how to add an issue >_>
  279. # [18:51] <nimbupani> RESOLVED: use flow-from property to enable regions
  280. # [18:52] <nimbupani> alexmog: my biggest concern with region break was that while behavior of page-break is undefined we would be creating a separate syntax for smthing that means something exactly same as page break or has same effect in same media
  281. # [18:52] <nimbupani> plinss: we redefined breaking property in multicol
  282. # [18:52] <nimbupani> vhardy: we already resolved to have a region break
  283. # [18:53] <nimbupani> florian: when we want diff kind of break for diff kind of thing and we need to think about carefully.
  284. # [18:53] <nimbupani> fantasai: we need a css3 pagination module?
  285. # [18:53] <nimbupani> vhardy: maybe.
  286. # [18:53] <nimbupani> alexmog: yeah that would be great to have one. we can ask for volunteers to write it.
  287. # [18:53] <nimbupani> fantasai: there is some interaction with paged meda spec.
  288. # [18:54] <nimbupani> fantasai: we might want to sync paged media spec to css 2.1 and push that out and ahve css3 pagination and then add whatever we need to add
  289. # [18:54] <nimbupani> fantasai: the multicol spec defines aliases it was kinda expecting paged media to do that definition
  290. # [18:54] <nimbupani> fantasai: maybe we can pull that into a separate module
  291. # [18:54] * Quits: bradk (bradk@166.205.138.226) (Quit: Signing Off. Buh-bye. )
  292. # [18:54] <nimbupani> vhardy: sgtm
  293. # [18:55] * alexmog like
  294. # [18:55] <nimbupani> plinss: who is going to work on the pagination module
  295. # [18:55] <nimbupani> fantasai: i probably should do that
  296. # [18:55] <nimbupani> fantasai: i hope its okay if you dont start until sept or oct
  297. # [18:55] <nimbupani> fantasai: will be working more on pagination stuff this fall in either case.
  298. # [18:55] <nimbupani> alexmog: MS and Adobe are most motivated people so maybe we and you should talk about it and figure out who should write the spec
  299. # [18:55] <nimbupani> vhardy: yeah
  300. # [18:56] * sylvaing sounds like a great thing to do during our honeymoon.
  301. # [18:56] * sylvaing not
  302. # [18:56] <nimbupani> fantasai: i can rip out various pieces we need and create a framework
  303. # [18:56] * sylvaing likes the sound of spec pieces being ripped out
  304. # [18:56] <nimbupani> whats the resolution?
  305. # [18:58] <nimbupani> RESOLVED: CSS Regions has a region break like multicol and start on css3 pagination module and adobe and ms would sort out the editorship of that spec
  306. # [18:58] <vhardy> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-regions/#region-flow-break-properties-break-before-break-after-break-inside
  307. # [18:58] <nimbupani> TOPIC: Conformance markup within the spec
  308. # [18:58] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: can we talk about print backgrounds
  309. # [18:58] <nimbupani> fantasai: can we talk about css 2. test suites
  310. # [18:58] <nimbupani> plinss: whats the issue?
  311. # [18:59] <nimbupani> fantasai: apparently ?? filed a bunch of issues but has not received a response about getting them fixed
  312. # [18:59] <plinss> s/??/Gerard Talbot/
  313. # [18:59] <nimbupani> fantasai: is ms planning to maintain those tests or find a new owner
  314. # [18:59] <nimbupani> arronei: i can make changes whenever we feel its right
  315. # [18:59] <nimbupani> plinss: no reason not to make updates.
  316. # [19:00] <nimbupani> arronei: i can start working on it then
  317. # [19:00] <nimbupani> plinss: TabAtkins is saying if we can get a resolution in printing bg last week
  318. # [19:00] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: wiki page did not facilitate new discussion
  319. # [19:00] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: 1. do nothing 2. add a hint that lets author provide extra info so UA can make a better choice
  320. # [19:01] <nimbupani> florian: 1 and then come up with a UI that lets user switch based.
  321. # [19:01] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: are u asking me to come up with a new browser UI for all browsers
  322. # [19:02] <nimbupani> florian: seems like browsers have not made effort on print yet. Option1 is not silly and use ?? as heuristics it is not that silly
  323. # [19:02] <nimbupani> plinss: there is no way we can get reasonable heuristics. there are print scenarios that do not have a direct user interaction
  324. # [19:02] <nimbupani> ??? I like whats in 3
  325. # [19:02] <Zakim> -arno
  326. # [19:03] <nimbupani> alexmog: using !important
  327. # [19:03] * Joins: bradk (bradk@166.205.138.226)
  328. # [19:03] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: !important is already doing wrong things and it is not just bgs.
  329. # [19:03] <nimbupani> alexmog: printing bgs is unique situation where browser refuses to display smthing that was specified. it is a special feature
  330. # [19:03] <vhardy> vhardy: need to drop out.
  331. # [19:03] <Zakim> - +2aabb
  332. # [19:04] * Quits: vhardy (vhardy@192.150.10.201) (Quit: vhardy)
  333. # [19:04] <Zakim> - +1.650.766.aadd
  334. # [19:04] <nimbupani> alexmog: there is no other issue like that. we can create !print
  335. # [19:04] <Zakim> + +1.650.766.aaee
  336. # [19:04] <nimbupani> fantasai: we should ahve the principle that if someone has done the right thing, they should do one simple thing and it should just work
  337. # [19:04] <nimbupani> fantasai: they should not reqrite stylesheet
  338. # [19:05] <nimbupani> s/reqrite/rewrite
  339. # [19:05] <nimbupani> fantasai: !important does not fit that bill
  340. # [19:05] <nimbupani> alexmog: what is ur preferred answer TabAtkins
  341. # [19:05] <nimbupani> florian: are we aligning with prop 7
  342. # [19:05] <florian> http://wiki.csswg.org/ideas/print-backgrounds
  343. # [19:06] <nimbupani> plinss: print media stylesheet is not sufficient
  344. # [19:06] <florian> I was just asking elika's position, not everybody's
  345. # [19:06] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: 2 to 6 are unusable
  346. # [19:06] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: i am for option 7
  347. # [19:06] <nimbupani> alexmog: is this for document or elements
  348. # [19:06] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: either way
  349. # [19:06] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: putting on doc is 7.1
  350. # [19:07] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: individual pages is 7.2
  351. # [19:07] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: any of them works.
  352. # [19:07] <nimbupani> alexmog: it could be a meta tag
  353. # [19:07] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  354. # [19:07] * sylvaing must go. Have a great September everyone!
  355. # [19:07] <nimbupani> ??? print or anything like that sez we know better than you. the user needs to decide.
  356. # [19:07] <nimbupani> s/????/arronei
  357. # [19:08] * Ms2ger wishes sylvaing an enjoyable time away from CSS
  358. # [19:08] <nimbupani> arronei: as vendors we decided not to print bgs by default. if we decide to print bgs by default, we need to engage the community and teach authors that they need to author good stylesheets for print
  359. # [19:08] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: we will not be changing browsers to print bgs by default
  360. # [19:08] <nimbupani> arronei: now you need to provide a notification that you will be printing insane amount of stuff on these pages.
  361. # [19:09] <nimbupani> ??? we need people to write good stylesheet
  362. # [19:09] <nimbupani> alexmog: if we add an option to print bg we will never need user override with that.
  363. # [19:09] <dsinger> printed backgrounds sometimes make the print unreadable
  364. # [19:10] <nimbupani> alexmog: browser it is okay to print what the author has done that. the lack of the property means this is the old page and use it the old way.
  365. # [19:10] <dsinger> making users miserable with the default is no way to educate site authors to make better stylesheets
  366. # [19:10] <nimbupani> fantasai: an interesting heuristic to check would be if canvas has a bg that is not white then probably the page is not designed to print with ink
  367. # [19:10] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  368. # [19:10] * Quits: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  369. # [19:11] <nimbupani> plinss: i dont think the simple heuristic is good enough.
  370. # [19:11] <oyvind> I'm sure plenty of pages have white/transparent html/body and put everything in some div
  371. # [19:11] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: i have designed pages with no canvas bgs and elements that span the canvas having bg
  372. # [19:11] <nimbupani> dsinger: bg by default would make usesrs miserable
  373. # [19:11] * alexmog <meta http-equiv="X-UA-Print-Background" content="always"/>
  374. # [19:11] <szilles> I support Alex's point: that adding a flag, probably on the document, that says honor the style, would allow migration to using suitable 'print' stylesheets
  375. # [19:11] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: are we going to make a decision or are we going to continue be undefined
  376. # [19:12] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: we are unable to make any decision on this whatsoever
  377. # [19:12] <nimbupani> alexmog: we are closer to a decision
  378. # [19:12] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: dont do it at all or do it with a property, there is no useful conversation out of this. I am not sure how to proceed.
  379. # [19:12] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: i am not seeing any progress towards a conclusion
  380. # [19:13] <nimbupani> alexmog: u have proposal on the wiki
  381. # [19:13] <nimbupani> alexmog: we can have things that are not in css but apply to whole doc
  382. # [19:13] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: if we decide there is a mechanism for this, that would be sufficient for my needs.
  383. # [19:13] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: can we assume 7 covers all variations on this idea?
  384. # [19:14] <nimbupani> plinss: i propose we elect to do something
  385. # [19:14] <nimbupani> plinss: i think we shold move forward anyway.
  386. # [19:14] <nimbupani> plinss: tab should work on a concrete proposal get some implementation experience if folks hate it we can revisit
  387. # [19:14] <szilles> +1 for Peter's proposal
  388. # [19:14] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: cool for me
  389. # [19:14] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.101) (Quit: sylvaing)
  390. # [19:14] <nimbupani> RESOLVED: TabAtkins to create a proposal for print bgs
  391. # [19:15] <Zakim> - +1.650.766.aaee
  392. # [19:15] <Zakim> -fantasai
  393. # [19:15] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  394. # [19:15] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
  395. # [19:15] <Zakim> -arronei
  396. # [19:15] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  397. # [19:15] <Zakim> -plinss
  398. # [19:15] <Zakim> -nimbu
  399. # [19:15] <Zakim> -hober
  400. # [19:15] <Zakim> -stearns
  401. # [19:15] <Zakim> -florian
  402. # [19:15] <Zakim> -alexmog
  403. # [19:15] <Zakim> -??P15
  404. # [19:15] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  405. # [19:15] <Zakim> Attendees were florian, plinss, nimbu, stearns, hober, +1.858.354.aaaa, dsinger, +2aabb, fantasai, JohnJansen, TabAtkins_, SteveZ, alexmog, +2aacc, arno, [Microsoft], arronei,
  406. # [19:15] <Zakim> ... +1.650.766.aadd, +1.650.766.aaee
  407. # [19:16] * Quits: bradk (bradk@166.205.138.226) (Ping timeout)
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  409. # [19:16] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  410. # [19:18] * Quits: florian (florianr@83.202.8.18) (Ping timeout)
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  412. # [19:28] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58) (Quit: Freedom - to walk free and own no superior.)
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  422. # [21:02] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  423. # [21:02] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
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  438. # Session Close: Thu Aug 25 00:00:00 2011

The end :)