/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2011-10-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 19 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  74. # [17:12] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/19-css-irc
  75. # [17:12] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  76. # [17:12] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 54 minutes
  77. # [17:12] <glazou> rrsagent, make logs public
  78. # [17:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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  84. # [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, code?
  85. # [18:02] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
  86. # [18:02] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  87. # [18:03] <Zakim> +??P7
  88. # [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, ??P7 is me
  89. # [18:03] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  90. # [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, mute me
  91. # [18:03] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
  92. # [18:03] * Joins: johnjansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  93. # [18:04] <Zakim> -glazou
  94. # [18:04] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  95. # [18:04] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou
  96. # [18:04] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.232.9.174)
  97. # [18:04] <glazou> sigh
  98. # [18:04] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  99. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P7
  100. # [18:04] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P7 is me
  101. # [18:04] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  102. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  103. # [18:04] <johnjansen> zakim, microsoft has johnjansen
  104. # [18:04] <Zakim> +johnjansen; got it
  105. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P11
  106. # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, ??P11 is me
  107. # [18:04] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  108. # [18:05] <Zakim> +sylvaing
  109. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.510.364.aaaa
  110. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P20
  111. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P0
  112. # [18:06] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is ericmueller
  113. # [18:06] <Zakim> +ericmueller; got it
  114. # [18:07] <Zakim> +stearns
  115. # [18:07] <antonp> Zakim, ??P20 is me
  116. # [18:07] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
  117. # [18:07] <glazou> Zakim, ??P0 is fantasai
  118. # [18:07] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  119. # [18:07] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  120. # [18:08] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fantasai (3%), stearns (97%)
  121. # [18:08] <Zakim> -antonp
  122. # [18:08] * Joins: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117)
  123. # [18:08] <stearns> muted now
  124. # [18:08] <Zakim> +??P51
  125. # [18:08] <stearns> fans in my office are loud
  126. # [18:08] <antonp> Zakim, ??P51 is me
  127. # [18:08] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
  128. # [18:09] * Joins: cesar (acebal@85.152.178.139)
  129. # [18:09] <Zakim> +bradk
  130. # [18:09] <Zakim> +??P53
  131. # [18:09] <kojiishi> zakim, ??p53 is me
  132. # [18:09] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
  133. # [18:09] <Zakim> +fantasai.a
  134. # [18:09] <Zakim> -fantasai
  135. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Bert
  136. # [18:09] <Zakim> + +569011aabb
  137. # [18:10] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  138. # [18:10] <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
  139. # [18:10] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  140. # [18:10] <glazou> Zakim, aabb is cesar
  141. # [18:10] <Zakim> +cesar; got it
  142. # [18:10] <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
  143. # [18:10] <Zakim> On the phone I see danielweck, [Microsoft], glazou, sylvaing, ericmueller, stearns, antonp, bradk, kojiishi, fantasai.a, Bert, cesar, [Microsoft.a]
  144. # [18:10] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has arronei
  145. # [18:10] <Zakim> On IRC I see cesar, bradk, sylvaing, johnjansen, antonp, danielweck, arno, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, kojiishi, stearns, dbaron, shepazu, hober, nimbupani, Martijnc, arronei, lhnz,
  146. # [18:10] <Zakim> ... Bert, gsnedders, plinss, fantasai, krijnh, ed, TabAtkins, CSSWG_LogBot, Hixie, pjrm, trackbot
  147. # [18:11] * Joins: kimberlyblessing (Kimberly@68.81.71.240)
  148. # [18:11] <Zakim> +kimberlyblessing
  149. # [18:11] <glazou> Regrets from Apple reps, company event
  150. # [18:11] <Zakim> +howcome
  151. # [18:11] * Joins: howcome (howcome@213.236.208.22)
  152. # [18:11] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@24.6.120.172)
  153. # [18:12] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  154. # [18:12] <fantasai> glazou: Peter is sick. I might need a fallback chair during the AC meetings at TPAC.
  155. # [18:12] <fantasai> glazou: Any extra items?
  156. # [18:13] <fantasai> Topic: CSS Speech
  157. # [18:13] <danielweck> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-speech
  158. # [18:13] <fantasai> danielweck: I think we need a bit more discusison on issue 1
  159. # [18:13] <fantasai> danielweck: 2 is resolved last week
  160. # [18:13] <fantasai> danielweck: issue 3
  161. # [18:14] <fantasai> danielweck: Christoph proposes to rename voice-volume to volume-voice. I rejected on consistency with other voice-* properties; his arguments didn't seem convincing enough.
  162. # [18:14] <fantasai> danielweck: Where does the WG stand?
  163. # [18:14] <danielweck> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Sep/0109.html
  164. # [18:15] <fantasai> glazou, fantasai, szilles agree with danielweck
  165. # [18:15] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Do not rename voice-volume
  166. # [18:16] <fantasai> danielweck: Issue 4, Gregory was saying that some of the property we marked at-risk should not be dropped
  167. # [18:16] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  168. # [18:16] <fantasai> danielweck: That's not really up to us, it's up to implementations, so I marked this as an invalid concern
  169. # [18:17] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
  170. # [18:17] <fantasai> glazou: Absolutely, at-risk does not mean it's dropped
  171. # [18:17] <fantasai> RESOLVED: No change for issue 4
  172. # [18:17] <fantasai> danielweck: Gregory put forward some concerns with voice-rate, but it seems to me that the prose is correct, what he wants is already in the spec.
  173. # [18:18] <Zakim> +plinss
  174. # [18:18] <fantasai> danielweck: There is an error in the prose, which I fixed.
  175. # [18:18] <danielweck> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Oct/0011.html
  176. # [18:18] <fantasai> danielweck: Maybe I misunderstand his point, or maybe he misread the spec.
  177. # [18:20] <fantasai> szilles: I think he was asking to use "slow" when talking about cutting the speed by half and "fast" when multiplying it > 100%
  178. # [18:21] <fantasai> szilles: "For example, 50% means the speaking-rate gets multiplied by .5"
  179. # [18:21] <fantasai> danielweck: Ok, I will add that in my tracker
  180. # [18:21] <fantasai> danielweck: Issue 6 is proposal to add 'play-during'
  181. # [18:22] * glazou notices voice-rate does not have 'slower' nor 'faster'
  182. # [18:22] <fantasai> danielweck: I wasn't there when first CSS3 Speech drafts were produced. What I did notice was that play-during, which was in CSS2.1, disappeared in CSS3 Speech from the first draft that was published
  183. # [18:22] <fantasai> danielweck: play-during is similar to <bgsound>
  184. # [18:22] <fantasai> danielweck: This feature would introduce concurrency in the CSS Speech audo output -- currently everything is sequential
  185. # [18:23] <fantasai> danielweck: Apply 'play-during' to nested elements, and the complexity explodes.
  186. # [18:24] <fantasai> danielweck: So my proposal is to reject reintroducing this property
  187. # [18:25] <danielweck> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Oct/0423.html
  188. # [18:25] <fantasai> glazou: CSS2.1 Aural Appendix is informative, says something about adding aural capabilities later
  189. # [18:25] <fantasai> fantasai: I think it's fair to reject feature requests. CSS Speech should be feature-frozen at this point. We can consider it for a future level.
  190. # [18:26] <fantasai> ^danielweck: Also, I think this mixes aural styling with speech synthesizing
  191. # [18:26] <fantasai> szilles: I agree with fantasai, but not sure I buy the argument it doesn't belong here.
  192. # [18:27] <fantasai> danielweck: CSS Speech was intended to focus on speech synthesis
  193. # [18:27] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@24.6.120.172) (Ping timeout)
  194. # [18:27] <fantasai> glazou: play-during is not strictly related to speech
  195. # [18:28] * Joins: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.0.71)
  196. # [18:29] <fantasai> fantasai: [...]
  197. # [18:29] <fantasai> szilles: It might be a reasonable request, just not for this version
  198. # [18:29] <Zakim> +arno
  199. # [18:29] <fantasai> RESLVED: Not adding 'play-during' to CSS3 Speech; may consider for later level.
  200. # [18:29] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@24.6.120.172)
  201. # [18:30] <fantasai> danielweck: Issue about using SPAN element in examples, also to create an HTML5 default stylesheet
  202. # [18:31] <fantasai> danielweck: I think the default stylesheet for HTML5 is out-of-scope for the spec, should be tackled cross-wg after HTML5 settles down
  203. # [18:31] <fantasai> danielweck: I note CSS2 includes an HTML4 style sheet
  204. # [18:32] <fantasai> szilles: So who's responsible for that?
  205. # [18:32] <fantasai> glazou: HTMLWG, of course
  206. # [18:32] <fantasai> glazou: It's not our role to define a default stylehsheet for all dialects
  207. # [18:33] <fantasai> glazou: You could add an example that styles em / strong
  208. # [18:34] <Zakim> -danielweck
  209. # [18:34] <danielweck> coming back
  210. # [18:34] <fantasai> fantasai: I don't think you need to give an exhaustive HTML stylesheet, but I think it's fair to replace the SPAN in the example with EM
  211. # [18:34] <Zakim> +??P7
  212. # [18:34] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P7 is me
  213. # [18:34] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  214. # [18:35] <fantasai> issue 8 - editorial
  215. # [18:35] <fantasai> danielweck: Issue 9 is about cryptic hyperlink text
  216. # [18:35] <fantasai> danielweck: This applies to all the specs in CSS: the CSSWG preprocessor generates poor index text for screen readers
  217. # [18:35] <fantasai> Bert: I can change it, but I don't know what to change it to.
  218. # Session Close: Wed Oct 19 18:36:24 2011
  219. #
  220. # Session Start: Wed Oct 19 18:36:24 2011
  221. # Session Ident: #css
  222. # [18:36] * Disconnected
  223. # [18:42] * Attempting to rejoin channel #css
  224. # [18:42] * Rejoined channel #css
  225. # [18:42] * Topic is 'CSS Working Group | logged at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  226. # [18:42] * Set by dbaron on Wed Oct 12 02:04:03
  227. # [18:42] <fantasai> danielweck: I'm reluctant to introduce these kewyords when decibels are pretty easy to use already
  228. # [18:43] <fantasai> danielweck: We already note that +/- 6db is approximately X amount lounder/softer in human perception
  229. # [18:43] <fantasai> danielweck: We'd also have to introduce a mapping to SSML, since they don't map directly
  230. # [18:45] <fantasai> szilles: font-size has 'smaller' and 'larger' keywords
  231. # [18:45] <fantasai> fantasai: Don't those key up and down the keyword scale?
  232. # [18:45] <fantasai> danielweck: Usually audio systems use decibels
  233. # [18:46] <fantasai> fantasai: You could have them compute to different keywords
  234. # [18:47] <fantasai> danielweck explains how the keywords work and why they are UA/user-defined
  235. # [18:48] <fantasai> szilles: Some authors don't want to understand audio physics and work it out
  236. # [18:49] <fantasai> danielweck: We have a note about +/- 6db in the prose already. We could define what increasing the sound to make it louder or softer means in decibels, without referring to any keyword
  237. # [18:49] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@24.6.120.172) (Ping timeout)
  238. # [18:49] <fantasai> danielweck: These terms mean something to authors, so that would help
  239. # [18:51] <fantasai> fantasai: If we introduce these keywords, they shouldn't map to fixed decibels -- we can already do fixed decibels. They should operate on the keyword scale
  240. # [18:52] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  241. # [18:52] <glazou> glazou: similarly we don't have fast/slower for voice-rate, maybe a note is needed
  242. # [18:52] <Zakim> -howcome
  243. # [18:52] <glazou> s/fast/faster
  244. # [18:52] <fantasai> fantasai: Didn't we used to have a numeric scale
  245. # [18:52] <fantasai> ?
  246. # [18:54] * glazou fantasai please minute that about 0
  247. # [18:54] <fantasai> fantasai: e.g. 0-100 would map to the keyword range
  248. # [18:54] <fantasai> glazou: I don't think 0 silent 1 x-soft makes sense
  249. # [18:54] * glazou thanks
  250. # [18:54] <fantasai> fantasai: You could make 0 x-soft
  251. # [18:54] <fantasai> glazou: that would be confusing
  252. # [18:55] <glazou> glazou: authors will always interpret 'voice-volume: 0' as silent
  253. # [18:55] <fantasai> szilles: I think the best thing would be to improve the note for authors to explain how to make the sound louder or softer
  254. # [18:55] * Quits: howcome (howcome@213.236.208.22) (Ping timeout)
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  256. # [18:56] <fantasai> RESOLVED: For issue 11, improve informative wording
  257. # [18:56] <fantasai> danielweck: Proposal to drop voice-volume: silent
  258. # [18:56] <fantasai> danielweck: Commenter notes that setting silent, the element doesn't disappear from the audio stream, it just has zero amplitude while the speech output lasts.
  259. # [18:57] <fantasai> danielweck: Equivalent to visibility: hidden
  260. # [18:57] <fantasai> danielweck: By contrast we have speak: none / display: none, which remove the element from the stream
  261. # [18:57] <fantasai> danielweck: The commenter says this is dangerous wrt accessibility/usability
  262. # [18:58] <fantasai> danielweck: I argue that it's a typical case for the author to set silent on a long piece of content, just as it's stupid to have a page with large swaths of blank space
  263. # [18:58] <fantasai> danielweck: There are use cases where, e.g. animating from silent, or leaving gaps in the audio stream and scripting that to read or not
  264. # [18:59] <fantasai> danielweck: I don't think we should be dropping the feature because someone might to something stupid with it
  265. # [18:59] <fantasai> glazou: I have a side-comment wrt silent
  266. # [19:00] <fantasai> glazou: Usually muting / unmuting reverts to original values
  267. # [19:00] <fantasai> glazou: You can't retrieve that value, except programmatically
  268. # [19:00] <fantasai> danielweck: Yes, but I don't think we can easily solve that in CSS3 Speech
  269. # [19:02] <fantasai> smfr: This is a common problem with display: none
  270. # [19:03] <fantasai> fantasai: The 'speak' property does not have the 'display' none problem -- we dealt with that by splitting it from speak-as
  271. # [19:03] <fantasai> fantasai: wrt silent / not-silent switch, you could solve that by preserving the inherited value along with the 'silent' keyword, and introducing a 'restore' value that removes the 'silent' part
  272. # [19:04] <fantasai> danielweck: I think adding that would complicate the spec's mapping to SSML
  273. # [19:04] <fantasai> RESOLVED: no change for issue 12
  274. # [19:04] <fantasai> danielweck: issue 13
  275. # [19:04] <Zakim> -danielweck
  276. # [19:04] * Quits: Martijnc (Martijnc@84.192.44.100) (Ping timeout)
  277. # [19:04] * Joins: Martijnc (Martijnc@84.192.44.100)
  278. # [19:04] <Zakim> +??P7
  279. # [19:04] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P7 is me
  280. # [19:04] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  281. # [19:05] * Parts: Martijnc (Martijnc@84.192.44.100)
  282. # [19:05] <fantasai> fantasai explains speak /speak-as issue
  283. # [19:05] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Proposal to re-merge 'speak' + 'speak-as' rejected, for reasons that they were split.
  284. # [19:06] <fantasai> danielweck: pause properties take <time>, there's a proposal to restrict the range of values allowed in <time>
  285. # [19:06] <fantasai> danielweck: I proprose to reject that
  286. # [19:06] <fantasai> danielweck: I don't want to define good authoring practice by restricting the values
  287. # [19:07] <fantasai> szilles: You should respond saying that some of the things they're asking for should go into authoring guidelines
  288. # [19:07] <fantasai> danielweck: Someone also made a point about using MQ to address specific speech contexts, explain e.g. what kind of disability user might have, etc.
  289. # [19:07] <fantasai> danielweck: I've worked in device adaptation, and this seems very risky
  290. # [19:07] <fantasai> danielweck: and definitely out-of-scope for CSS Speech
  291. # [19:08] * Joins: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169)
  292. # [19:08] <fantasai> danielweck: Also MQ addresses hardware requirements, not user capabilities
  293. # [19:08] <bradk> 10:02 am. I have to sign off.
  294. # [19:08] <bradk> bye
  295. # [19:08] * Quits: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  296. # [19:09] <fantasai> RESOLVED: No change for issue 14 request to restrict <time> values
  297. # [19:09] <Zakim> -ericmueller
  298. # [19:09] <Zakim> -danielweck
  299. # [19:09] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  300. # [19:09] <Zakim> -arno
  301. # [19:09] <Zakim> -kimberlyblessing
  302. # [19:09] * Quits: kimberlyblessing (Kimberly@68.81.71.240) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 8.0/20111011182523])
  303. # [19:09] <Zakim> -glazou
  304. # [19:09] <Zakim> -kojiishi
  305. # [19:09] <Zakim> -cesar
  306. # [19:09] <Zakim> -antonp
  307. # [19:09] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  308. # [19:09] <Zakim> -stearns
  309. # [19:09] * Parts: antonp (50a94e63@207.192.75.252)
  310. # [19:09] <Zakim> -Bert
  311. # [19:09] * Quits: kojiishi (kojiishi@222.158.227.129) (Quit: Leaving...)
  312. # [19:09] <fantasai> RESOLVED: MQ feature request for user-capability-querying out-of-scope
  313. # [19:09] <Zakim> -bradk
  314. # [19:09] * Parts: cesar (acebal@85.152.178.139)
  315. # [19:09] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
  316. # [19:09] <fantasai> Meeting closed.
  317. # [19:09] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  318. # [19:09] <Zakim> -fantasai.a
  319. # [19:09] <Zakim> -plinss
  320. # [19:09] * Quits: danielweck (danielweck@86.158.24.42) (Quit: danielweck)
  321. # [19:11] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  322. # [19:11] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  323. # [19:11] <Zakim> Attendees were danielweck, johnjansen, glazou, sylvaing, +1.510.364.aaaa, ericmueller, stearns, antonp, fantasai, bradk, kojiishi, Bert, +569011aabb, [Microsoft], arronei, cesar,
  324. # [19:11] <Zakim> ... kimberlyblessing, howcome, SteveZ, plinss, arno
  325. # [19:11] <dbaron> aargh, I remembered we had a telecon at 9am and forgot by noon.
  326. # [19:11] <dbaron> Problem with being in a different time zone
  327. # [19:12] <dbaron> I should really figure out why my phone calendar alarms don't make any sound anymore...
  328. # [19:13] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@24.6.120.172) (Ping timeout)
  329. # [19:23] * Parts: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  330. # [19:31] * Quits: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.0.71) (Quit: Rossen)
  331. # Session Close: Wed Oct 19 19:34:55 2011
  332. #
  333. # Session Start: Wed Oct 19 19:34:55 2011
  334. # Session Ident: #css
  335. # [19:34] * Disconnected
  336. # [19:36] * Attempting to rejoin channel #css
  337. # [19:36] * Rejoined channel #css
  338. # [19:36] * Topic is 'CSS Working Group | logged at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  339. # [19:36] * Set by dbaron on Wed Oct 12 02:04:03
  340. # [19:37] * Quits: stearns (anonymous@192.150.22.5) (Ping timeout)
  341. # [19:44] * Quits: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
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  346. # [21:08] * Parts: Martijnc (Martijnc@84.192.44.100)
  347. # [21:13] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  348. # [21:13] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  349. # [21:53] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.232.9.174) (Ping timeout)
  350. # [22:06] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.232.9.174)
  351. # [22:16] * Quits: stearns (anonymous@50.132.63.33) (Connection reset by peer)
  352. # [22:16] * Joins: stearns (anonymous@50.132.63.33)
  353. # [22:24] * Quits: nimbupani (Adium@219.64.117.145) (Quit: Leaving.)
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  358. # [23:18] <fantasai> We should introduce a numeric scale for voice-volume that goes from 0 to 11 :)
  359. # [23:20] <stearns> the tufnel unit
  360. # [23:24] <fantasai> what kind of scale are volume knobs on anyway?
  361. # [23:25] * fantasai wonders
  362. # [23:44] * Quits: eighty4 (eighty4@85.228.202.21) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  363. # Session Close: Thu Oct 20 00:00:00 2011

The end :)