/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2011-11-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Nov 04 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  12. # [00:37] <ojan> random question...anyone know the history behind percentage sizes in standards mode? specifically, in quirks mode, to resolve a percentage, you walk up the tree until you hit the first non-auto, non-percentage valu (roughly)...for standards mode, if you hit an auto value you bail.
  13. # [00:37] <ojan> this behavior seems totally wrong to me and i'm wondering how the decision got made, so i can propose a fix for the future
  14. # [00:38] <ojan> dbaron: ^^^ maybe you know?
  15. # [00:38] <dbaron> which behavior seems wrong?
  16. # [00:38] <dbaron> quirks or standards?
  17. # [00:38] <ojan> dbaron: standards
  18. # [00:39] <ojan> dbaron: right or wrong is irrelevant...it's clearly not what people want/expect
  19. # [00:39] <dbaron> yeah
  20. # [00:39] <dbaron> it's what the spec says, and I suppose we've never argued
  21. # [00:39] <dbaron> yeah
  22. # [00:39] <dbaron> it mgiht be a compat problem now, though
  23. # [00:39] <ojan> dbaron: oh yeah...no way we can change it
  24. # [00:39] <ojan> dbaron: but, if there wasn't a good reason for it, we could always add a new unit
  25. # [00:40] <ojan> dbaron: the way you get the behavior you want these days is to have to put height 100% on every ancestor including the html element
  26. # [00:40] <ojan> dbaron: == the suck
  27. # [00:40] <ojan> dbaron: web dev after web dev is confused by this and it sucks to have to litter your tree with height values
  28. # [00:41] <ojan> dbaron: hwen you change your structure a little, you have to remember to put height 100% on any new elements you add
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  30. # [00:57] <ojan> dbaron: a coworker had an interesting idea of an altnerative to a new unit, we could add a new property a la box-sizing to control the behavior in a subtree
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  36. # [01:09] <tantek> ojan - what's the use case you're trying to address?
  37. # [01:10] <ojan> tantek: making an element fill one of it's ancestors...which is very common...e.g.
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  39. # [01:10] <tantek> ojan - doesn't flexbox solve that?
  40. # [01:10] <ojan> tantek: making a UI that fills the whole viewport, making a dialog whose contents fill the dialog
  41. # [01:10] <tantek> cc: TabAtkins
  42. # [01:10] <ojan> tantek: but the flexbox itself needs to fill it's container
  43. # [01:11] <tantek> ojan, hmm, maybe position:absolute;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;height:auto;width:auto ?
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  45. # [01:12] <ojan> tantek: yes, that works, but it's not at all intuitive and very few people learn to do it
  46. # [01:12] <tantek> yeah, it's copy-pasteo
  47. # [01:13] <tantek> but that should avoid the "you have to set height explicitly all the way down" thing right?
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  49. # [01:14] <ojan> tantek: that also doesn't let you do non 100% sizes...whcih i realize i didn't list as a use-case just now...but is totally valid
  50. # [01:14] <ojan> tantek: e.g. if you want a split-pane view
  51. # [01:15] <tantek> left:0;right:50%; … left:50%;right:0
  52. # [01:15] <ojan> tantek: how do you resolve the 50%?
  53. # [01:15] <ojan> oh
  54. # [01:15] <ojan> wait
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  56. # [01:15] <ojan> i'm confused
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  59. # [01:15] <ojan> yeah...how do you resolve right:50%?
  60. # [01:15] <tantek> positions are inset from the respective edges
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  62. # [01:15] <ojan> isn't that the same problem?
  63. # [01:15] <ojan> 50% of what?
  64. # [01:15] <tantek> no it works like you want it
  65. # [01:16] <tantek> (AFAIK)
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  68. # [01:18] <ojan> wth...i can't believe percentage for width/height is resolved totally differently from left/right
  69. # [01:18] <ojan> i mean...i just tested it in webkit and it worked
  70. # [01:18] <ojan> but wth
  71. # [01:19] <ojan> that's even more broken
  72. # [01:19] <ojan> works in gecko too
  73. # [01:19] <ojan> sigh
  74. # [01:20] <tantek> ahem
  75. # [01:20] <tantek> ojan, it's not totally broken
  76. # [01:21] <tantek> it's exactly what happens when we pursue a strategy like you were suggesting
  77. # [01:21] <tantek> to fix the situation
  78. # [01:21] <tantek> the latter technology "does the right thing"
  79. # [01:21] <tantek> improving on the legacy standards compat
  80. # [01:21] <ojan> oh i see...percentages work with position: absolute actually
  81. # [01:21] <ojan> so height: 50% works fine if it's position:absolute
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  252. # [21:43] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I'm in the lunch rom, on a telecon. Let me know where we're meeting wrt gradients
  253. # [22:02] * Joins: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169)
  254. # [22:05] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (tabatkins@63.145.238.4)
  255. # [22:06] * Joins: vhardy (vhardy@192.150.10.201)
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  259. # [22:10] * Joins: BradK (bradk@166.147.67.205)
  260. # [22:10] <BradK> Hello?
  261. # [22:10] <fantasai> still figuring out the skype thing
  262. # [22:11] <BradK> Me too, I guess. I seem to call and then get disconnected right away.
  263. # [22:11] <BradK> Or maybe I am just the only one there
  264. # [22:11] <BradK> Hard to tell
  265. # [22:12] * Joins: brianman (brianman@131.107.0.72)
  266. # [22:14] <fantasai> brianman: you're singed into skype, if I call you can you pick up?
  267. # [22:14] <brianman> That machine doesn't like the mic so it's useless.
  268. # [22:14] <fantasai> ok
  269. # [22:14] <fantasai> well, you can listen and I can minute and you can type?
  270. # [22:14] <brianman> We could try that I suppose.
  271. # [22:15] <brianman> Ring me again.
  272. # [22:16] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@63.145.238.4)
  273. # [22:17] <brianman> Lots of feedback.
  274. # [22:17] * Quits: Mike5 (Mike5@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Mike5)
  275. # [22:18] <brianman> I hear Elika and Brad.
  276. # [22:19] * Joins: Mike5 (Mike5@mcclure.w3.org)
  277. # [22:19] * Joins: Kai (chatzilla@63.145.238.4)
  278. # [22:20] <brianman> Shall we start with David's as Proposal 1?
  279. # [22:20] <fantasai> yes, we'll start with dbaron's proposal
  280. # [22:21] <TabAtkins_> brianman: You on the skypes?
  281. # [22:21] <brianman> Correct, I can hear but mic busted up.
  282. # [22:21] <TabAtkins_> brianman: kk
  283. # [22:21] * Joins: jdaggett_ (jdaggett@63.145.238.4)
  284. # [22:21] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#radial-gradients
  285. # [22:21] <TabAtkins_> r-g(<shape> to <extent> at <position>, <color-stop>#)
  286. # [22:22] <TabAtkins_> (1) r-g(<shape> to <extent> at <position>, <color-stop>#)
  287. # [22:23] <TabAtkins_> (2) r-g(<shape> to <extent> from <position>, <color-stop>#)
  288. # [22:23] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.145.238.4)
  289. # [22:23] <fantasai> Any other proposals we care about?
  290. # [22:23] * dbaron RRSAgent, pointer?
  291. # [22:23] <fantasai> brianman, BradK ?
  292. # [22:23] <brianman> Prefer 1
  293. # [22:24] <fantasai> Asking first whether there's others we care about
  294. # [22:24] <brianman> "From" suggests color is radiating from the point, when it's not for the offset case.
  295. # [22:24] <fantasai> should be
  296. # [22:24] <fantasai> hang on
  297. # [22:24] <brianman> aye, holding
  298. # [22:24] <BradK> Don't know what's happening with my Skype
  299. # [22:24] <fantasai> dbaron: Question, should order of position and size matter?
  300. # [22:24] <arronei> I prefer 1
  301. # [22:24] <fantasai> tab, fantasai: no, either way is fine
  302. # [22:25] <fantasai> any objections to order flexibility?
  303. # [22:25] <TabAtkins_> tab: Specifically, the order of the clauses is arbitrary from an english and logical standpoint, so having to remember a "correct" order is annoying
  304. # [22:25] <BradK> Argh.
  305. # [22:25] <brianman> (3) r-g(<shape> [ [to <extent>] || [at <position>] ]? , <color-stop-list> )
  306. # [22:25] <fantasai> what's three?
  307. # [22:25] <fantasai> how's it different?
  308. # [22:25] <brianman> Skype just disconnected for me :(
  309. # [22:26] <fantasai> I just hung up
  310. # [22:26] <fantasai> too many technical problems
  311. # [22:26] <fantasai> we'll IRC
  312. # [22:26] <brianman> (3) is "order doesn't matter" captured in grammar
  313. # [22:26] * Joins: plinss (plinss@63.145.238.4)
  314. # [22:26] <fantasai> Let's not add that to the list, please
  315. # [22:26] <fantasai> let's just iterate
  316. # [22:26] <arronei> could we use the bridge that we use for telecons?
  317. # [22:26] <brianman> (3) = 1prime then
  318. # [22:26] * Quits: jdaggett_ (jdaggett@63.145.238.4) (Quit: jdaggett_)
  319. # [22:26] <fantasai> I have no idea how to set it up
  320. # [22:26] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  321. # [22:26] <fantasai> I want to deal with the issues one by one, not make a gian list of proposals
  322. # [22:26] <plinss> zakim, room for 4?
  323. # [22:26] <Zakim> ok, plinss; conference Team_(css)21:21Z scheduled with code 26634 (CONF4) for 60 minutes until 2221Z
  324. # [22:26] <BradK> OK. Skype seems to kind of suck.
  325. # [22:26] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Thanks!
  326. # [22:27] <plinss> :-)
  327. # [22:27] <fantasai> ok, I"m going to call us in
  328. # [22:28] <Zakim> Team_(css)21:21Z has now started
  329. # [22:28] <fantasai> hang on, interruptd
  330. # [22:28] <brianman> While Elika is doing that...
  331. # [22:28] <brianman> Tab - <shape> has to come first or can be reordered also? IYO?
  332. # [22:28] <fantasai> perils of sittin gin the hallway
  333. # [22:29] <TabAtkins_> brianman: Come first. *That* is pretty much required by english standards, I think.
  334. # [22:29] <brianman> k, good. I was trying to capture that in (3)
  335. # [22:29] <fantasai> BradK: Going to call into zakim
  336. # [22:30] <TabAtkins_> brianman: Best capture is r-g([<shape> && [ [to <extent>] || [at <position>] ], ]? <color-stop>#)
  337. # [22:30] <BradK> I think I am on Zakim now
  338. # [22:30] <BradK> Zakim, who is here
  339. # [22:30] <Zakim> BradK, you need to end that query with '?'
  340. # [22:30] <brianman> You need another ? on that Tab
  341. # [22:30] <brianman> for the to/at bracket
  342. # [22:30] <fantasai> we're on zakim
  343. # [22:31] <TabAtkins_> brianman:
  344. # [22:31] <TabAtkins_> brianman: Don't think so.
  345. # [22:31] <BradK> Zakim, who is here?
  346. # [22:31] <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
  347. # [22:31] <Zakim> On IRC I see plinss, dbaron, Kai, Mike5, dsinger, brianman, BradK, ChrisL, r12a, Rossen, vhardy, TabAtkins_, shepazu, szilles, lgombos, arronei, cyril, arno, Ms2ger`, bensmithett,
  348. # [22:31] <Zakim> ... stearns, hober, arronei_, ojan, danielfilho, dholbert, trackbot, Hixie, lhnz, dglazkov, jdaggett, CSSWG_LogBot, krijnh, gsnedders, TabAtkins, pjrm, Bert, fantasai, ed
  349. # [22:31] * Ms2ger` waves
  350. # [22:31] * fantasai waves back
  351. # [22:31] <TabAtkins_> brianman: && means I can ignore either one.
  352. # [22:31] <brianman> r-g(<shape>, red, blue) is rejected by your syntax I thought.
  353. # [22:31] <TabAtkins_> brianman: Nope, it works.
  354. # [22:32] <brianman> && is optional but same order, || is optional but diff order?
  355. # [22:32] <fantasai> Let's not worry about getting the grammar right
  356. # [22:32] <brianman> I keep forgetting.
  357. # [22:32] <fantasai> we'll figure it out later
  358. # [22:32] <TabAtkins_> brianman: Yes.
  359. # [22:32] <brianman> k
  360. # [22:32] <fantasai> that's a programming problem, not an actual problem
  361. # [22:32] <brianman> Key point - shape has to come first if present?
  362. # [22:32] <fantasai> IssueOk, I'm chairing this.
  363. # [22:32] <fantasai> ISSUE 1
  364. # [22:32] <fantasai> Is the order of position and size flexible?
  365. # [22:32] <fantasai> Tab and I vote yes.
  366. # [22:32] <brianman> Relative to each other?
  367. # [22:33] <fantasai> yeah
  368. # [22:33] <fantasai> any other opinions?
  369. # [22:33] <TabAtkins_> Specifically, I vote that shape comes first, and te rest of the options are flexible order.
  370. # [22:33] <brianman> I'm fine with that; slower parse but that's ok.
  371. # [22:33] <fantasai> bradk: you ok with that?
  372. # [22:34] <BradK> I am
  373. # [22:34] <arronei> shape first others can switch order is fine with me
  374. # [22:34] <brianman> ...and colors must be last
  375. # [22:35] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: shape first, other options in any order, colors last
  376. # [22:35] <arronei> yes I agrre
  377. # [22:35] <fantasai> ISSUE 2
  378. # [22:35] <fantasai> 'from' vs 'at'
  379. # [22:35] <arronei> I vote 'at'
  380. # [22:35] <brianman> commentary: from is wrong for offset case in CSS27
  381. # [22:35] <BradK> I prefer from and to
  382. # [22:35] <fantasai> I think for this issue, we need to think about the offset radials
  383. # [22:35] <fantasai> and figure out what syntax we want for that
  384. # [22:35] <TabAtkins_> Whatever makes the most sense with 'offset' or something similar for Images 4 is what I want.
  385. # [22:35] <brianman> I prefer at because it's describing the location of the ellipse.
  386. # [22:35] <fantasai> So the thing about offset is that it'll have to be relative to the center
  387. # [22:36] <fantasai> because that's what offset implies
  388. # [22:36] <brianman> correct
  389. # [22:36] <fantasai> If we want to allow arbitrary positioning of the focus
  390. # [22:36] <fantasai> then we should not use 'offset'
  391. # [22:36] <brianman> <shape> AT <position> OFFSET <size>
  392. # [22:36] <TabAtkins_> Also, consider fantasai's recent proposal to drop 'cover' and 'contain', and make them size the ellipse from the center later.
  393. # [22:36] <brianman> <size>t describes the offset of the focal point from the <position>
  394. # [22:36] <fantasai> My preference is to have one argument give the position of the center and one to give the position of the focus
  395. # [22:36] <fantasai> independently
  396. # [22:37] <fantasai> E.g.
  397. # [22:37] <BradK> A keyword can determine if the bgpos is for offsetting just the center,, or the whole ellipse
  398. # [22:37] <fantasai> r-d(circle at center from 25% 25%, ...)
  399. # [22:37] <TabAtkins_> I would prefer less relativity as well. Relative offsets are useful for some things, but otherwise make it trickier to think about.
  400. # [22:37] <fantasai> that would give a centered ellipse with a focus at 25% 25%
  401. # [22:38] <TabAtkins_> I think I like that.
  402. # [22:38] <brianman> Question
  403. # [22:38] <fantasai> if either center or focus is missing, it defaults to the other
  404. # [22:38] <BradK> Asym from a to b
  405. # [22:38] <fantasai> yeah?
  406. # [22:38] * Quits: danielfilho (dcosta@187.31.77.7) (Ping timeout)
  407. # [22:38] <brianman> What if 25% 25% is outside the ellipse?
  408. # [22:38] * Joins: dcosta (dcosta@187.31.77.7)
  409. # [22:38] <TabAtkins_> brianman: Do what SVG does, and find the cloest point on the ellipse
  410. # [22:38] <brianman> Like previously discussed, ok.
  411. # [22:38] <brianman> Still tricky but ok.
  412. # [22:38] <TabAtkins_> It's not difficult geometry.
  413. # [22:38] <brianman> (curve / line intersection)
  414. # [22:38] <brianman> It's easy to calc and code. Hard for authors.
  415. # [22:39] <TabAtkins_> I forget how to do it, but I've done it in canvas before.
  416. # [22:39] <TabAtkins_> brianman: Yeah.
  417. # [22:39] <brianman> Elika/Tab fine with that clamping?
  418. # [22:39] <fantasai> You have the same problem with offset, it's not unique to syntax
  419. # [22:39] <fantasai> yep
  420. # [22:39] <brianman> Elika/Brad*
  421. # [22:39] <brianman> Offset has the same problem but less likely to hit authors.
  422. # [22:39] <brianman> because you can visually inspect the offset is within the explicit radii
  423. # [22:39] <brianman> for the explicit case
  424. # [22:40] <brianman> (Not a huge issue, just calling it out.)
  425. # [22:40] <TabAtkins_> brianman: We could always offer both 'from' and 'offset', making them mutually exclusive.
  426. # [22:40] <brianman> Elika doesn't like aliases.
  427. # [22:40] <brianman> :P
  428. # [22:41] <fantasai> bradk: What's the downside of haiving it outside the elipse?
  429. # [22:41] <fantasai> er, that was minuting
  430. # [22:41] <fantasai> bradk asked that question
  431. # [22:41] <fantasai> tab is answering...
  432. # [22:41] <brianman> The desired rendering is -a- inconsistent across libraries -b- conical
  433. # [22:41] <fantasai> brianman: It's not an alias, it would be a ifferent computatation
  434. # [22:41] <fantasai> brianman: I'm fine with having both options :)
  435. # [22:41] <TabAtkins_> BradK: Outside of the ellipse isn't well-defined. It depends on the details of how you're doing it.
  436. # [22:41] <brianman> point noted on offset vs. from
  437. # [22:42] <TabAtkins_> And as brianman says, it's inconsistently rendered.
  438. # [22:42] <fantasai> bradk says he's ok with clamping
  439. # [22:42] <BradK> Ok with clamping
  440. # [22:42] <TabAtkins_> But really, parity with SVG is what I'd going for.
  441. # [22:42] <fantasai> RESOLVED: use clamping just like SVG for focus outside ellipse cases
  442. # [22:42] <brianman> [SVG alignment - That's a bonus and a simplifier, yes]
  443. # [22:42] <fantasai> back to syntax...
  444. # [22:42] <brianman> wait.
  445. # [22:42] <brianman> Question
  446. # [22:42] <TabAtkins_> It seems like using 'at' for now is most readable, when combined with 'from' or 'offset' later.
  447. # [22:42] <TabAtkins_> brianman: Yo.
  448. # [22:42] <brianman> clamping and offset/location-of-focus -- css4?
  449. # [22:43] <TabAtkins_> Yeah.
  450. # [22:43] <brianman> k
  451. # [22:43] <fantasai> or you can use 'from' now and add 'at' later -- they'll map later
  452. # [22:43] <brianman> oh I think what you're saying...
  453. # [22:43] <brianman> today if you say from or at...they behave the same; later they don't
  454. # [22:43] <brianman> hmm
  455. # [22:43] <arronei> i would prefer that we just use 'at'
  456. # [22:43] <fantasai> bradk says "Seems early to resolve on calamping now'
  457. # [22:43] <TabAtkins_> I think it's clearer to use 'at' now, as the sizing keywords apply to that.
  458. # [22:43] <brianman> agree with arron, it paves the way
  459. # [22:43] <fantasai> fantasai: Just resolving within the context of this discussion
  460. # [22:44] <arronei> clamping is fine if its css4
  461. # [22:44] <fantasai> brianman, no saying we pick whichever of 'from' or 'at' is most readable
  462. # [22:44] <brianman> concur, brad, let's vette that with CSS4; we were just going for collective mental closure
  463. # [22:44] <fantasai> brianman, and then when we add the other keyword late,r that lets the focus and center be different
  464. # [22:44] <brianman> @elika - I meant that's why from/at language isn't a problem.
  465. # [22:44] <brianman> pre-css4
  466. # [22:44] <stearns> I think we should use 'intersection-of-major-and-minor-axes' instead of 'at'
  467. # [22:44] <brianman> but yes, let's pick 1...i prefer at
  468. # [22:44] <TabAtkins_> stearns: Good idea.
  469. # [22:45] <BradK> What is wrong with from and to?
  470. # [22:45] <fantasai> I prefer 'from' :)
  471. # [22:45] <TabAtkins_> BradK: to is for the sizing.
  472. # [22:45] <arronei> so can we list out the options. Just so I am clear
  473. # [22:45] <brianman> Tab do it :P
  474. # [22:45] <fantasai> hang on
  475. # [22:45] <BradK> It is easy to remember from and to, especially with 'to' being in linear g
  476. # [22:45] <fantasai> I think we all seem to agree that for CSS4 we want 'from' to be the focus and 'at' to be the center
  477. # [22:45] <brianman> yes
  478. # [22:45] <TabAtkins_> And I think we want 'to' to be the extent.
  479. # [22:46] <fantasai> ok, so that's resolved for now
  480. # [22:46] <brianman> fantasai - can you repeat the css3 resolve
  481. # [22:46] <fantasai> none yet
  482. # [22:46] <brianman> ah, that's a css4 tentative resolve? got it.
  483. # [22:46] <TabAtkins_> r-g(<shape> to <extent> at <shape-center>)
  484. # [22:46] <BradK> From can be focus and be center. Another keyword chooses which
  485. # [22:46] <fantasai> but we have a resolve on css4
  486. # [22:46] * Joins: gilles (gilles@144.189.101.1)
  487. # [22:46] <TabAtkins_> BradK: Right, at the moment both focus and shape-center are identical.
  488. # [22:46] <brianman> that was my point above
  489. # [22:47] <fantasai> (1) 'at' for focus/center in CSS3
  490. # [22:47] <fantasai> (2) 'from' for focus/center in CSS3
  491. # [22:47] <TabAtkins_> BradK: But I think that, since the sizing keywords base off of shape-center, we should use the shape-center word now.
  492. # [22:47] <TabAtkins_> And then add the focus keyword later.
  493. # [22:47] <fantasai> ooh, interesting point
  494. # [22:47] <brianman> Tab, use @ for talking to. and : for minuting. :P
  495. # [22:47] <TabAtkins_> So we can decide which is which today.
  496. # [22:47] <TabAtkins_> brianman: Will do.
  497. # [22:48] <brianman> Concur on the assessment in the long shape-center sentence.
  498. # [22:48] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: (minuted) When we do focus/center different, will the sizing keywords base off of the focus or the center?
  499. # [22:48] <brianman> It matches the way I was thinking about it, just unstated til now.
  500. # [22:48] <BradK> r-g(assym? <shape> from <extent> to <0%-center>)
  501. # [22:49] <fantasai> So...
  502. # [22:49] <fantasai> you size from the center of the ellipse
  503. # [22:49] <brianman> the shape-center
  504. # [22:49] <brianman> not the focus-center
  505. # [22:49] <brianman> correct?
  506. # [22:49] <TabAtkins_> Yes.
  507. # [22:49] <TabAtkins_> focus is a point, not a center. ^_^
  508. # [22:49] <BradK> BradK: r-g(assym? <shape> to <extent> from <0%-center>)
  509. # [22:49] <brianman> assertion: focus-center and it's keyword are CSS4 only
  510. # [22:49] <fantasai> but do you pick the closest/farthest-corner/side based on the focus or the center?
  511. # [22:50] * fantasai doesn't like the assym keyword
  512. # [22:50] <brianman> based on the shape-center
  513. # [22:50] <brianman> imo
  514. # [22:50] <TabAtkins_> @brian: Yes.
  515. # [22:50] <fantasai> I'm not so sure
  516. # [22:50] <fantasai> I think if I wanted the focus in the upper right
  517. # [22:50] <brianman> In D2D, it's off the shape center.
  518. # [22:50] <fantasai> ...
  519. # [22:50] <fantasai> I don't know
  520. # [22:50] <brianman> I have trouble understanding shape deriving from focus center.
  521. # [22:50] <BradK> Asym or whatever as placeholder for now
  522. # [22:50] <brianman> ...would even look like.
  523. # [22:50] <TabAtkins_> @brian Me too.
  524. # [22:51] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@63.145.238.4) (Quit: dsinger)
  525. # [22:51] <brianman> Let me try an example...
  526. # [22:51] <TabAtkins_> @brad I'm not sure what assym does.
  527. # [22:51] <fantasai> bradk says "you're picking whether you want to move the whole ellipse or the focus of the ellipse"
  528. # [22:52] <fantasai> brad "assym would make you move the focus without moving the ellipse
  529. # [22:52] <TabAtkins_> @Brad: Does that mean you always center the ellipse in the box?
  530. # [22:52] <arronei> this seems like a bigger change than what we agreed to talk about
  531. # [22:52] <brianman> width: 200px; height 100px; r-g(circle at 25px 25px offset 5px 5px, red, blue 100%, transparent);
  532. # [22:52] <TabAtkins_> When it's assym, that is.
  533. # [22:52] <brianman> ^ example 1
  534. # [22:53] <BradK> Yes, for asymmetrical offsets in Css4
  535. # [22:53] <TabAtkins_> I think we might be able to do from/to now, and then use 'focus' and 'offset' for absolute/relative positionin gof the focus later.
  536. # [22:53] <TabAtkins_> @Brad That makes it hard to do some good patterns you can do now that would be better with an offset focus.
  537. # [22:54] <brianman> what's <0%-center> ?
  538. # [22:54] <brianman> That part of the semi-grammmar confuses me.
  539. # [22:54] <brianman> grammar*
  540. # [22:54] <BradK> It's an edge case anyway to begin with
  541. # [22:54] <TabAtkins_> @Brian He means focus.
  542. # [22:54] <brianman> My understanding of offset focus is that you drag the color center within the shape, the shape doesn't move.
  543. # [22:55] <TabAtkins_> @Brad If you just omit 'from' you'd get a centered shape anyway. It's useful and current gradient engines can do it.
  544. # [22:55] <brianman> Brad/Elika - Are you thinking of it as a different thing?
  545. # [22:55] <TabAtkins_> brianman: No, that's right.
  546. # [22:55] <BradK> It is where the 0% color stop would be in both cases
  547. # [22:55] * fantasai is still trying to wrap her head around sizing keywords with offset radials
  548. # [22:55] <TabAtkins_> So, my current thought: 'to' is for offsets. 'from' is for shape-center. We define these in level 3.
  549. # [22:55] <TabAtkins_> In level 4 we define 'focus' and 'offset' for absolute and relative focus positioning.
  550. # [22:55] <brianman> I still am bothered by from.
  551. # [22:56] <brianman> To me "from" means "where the color starts"
  552. # [22:56] <brianman> not "where the shape is centered"
  553. # [22:56] <TabAtkins_> brianman: That's kind of my objection to, but I'm not sure.
  554. # [22:56] <fantasai> yeah, the problem is... we are using 'to' to describe the size
  555. # [22:56] <TabAtkins_> Dammit, I can't get used to using @ for mentioning.
  556. # [22:56] * stearns agrees with brianman
  557. # [22:56] <fantasai> or rather the extent
  558. # [22:56] <BradK> Me too, and that aligns with the way I am considering focus
  559. # [22:56] <fantasai> so you're thinking "from the center to the extent" to size the gradient
  560. # [22:57] <fantasai> but I agree, I also think of that as eing the color originating point
  561. # [22:57] <BradK> Keep the number of numbers to a minimum, and just use a keyword to say what center it applies to
  562. # [22:57] <TabAtkins_> BradK: Behavior switches are bad - they're hard/impossible to transition.
  563. # [22:57] * Quits: Ms2ger` (Ms2ger@91.181.107.198) (Quit: nn)
  564. # [22:58] <brianman> (4) r-g(1 3 4 5 7, red, blue)
  565. # [22:58] <brianman> just kidding
  566. # [22:58] <TabAtkins_> brianman: SHIP IT
  567. # [22:58] <TabAtkins_> [elika and brad are chatting]
  568. # [22:59] <brianman> I give 3:1 odds on Elika.
  569. # [23:00] <stearns> for some reason, using 'at' to describe the center of the shape with an offset to where the colors start from seems more clear to me than using 'from' to describe the center
  570. # [23:01] <fantasai> I agree
  571. # [23:01] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@63.145.238.4)
  572. # [23:01] <fantasai> my concern is how 'farthest-corner' is determined
  573. # [23:01] <fantasai> how do you pick that corner? is it the farthest from the focus or the center?
  574. # [23:02] <brianman> wait
  575. # [23:02] <brianman> Are we resolved on 2 - use at?
  576. # [23:02] <TabAtkins_> Always size relative to the shape-center.
  577. # [23:02] <fantasai> no
  578. # [23:02] <brianman> can we focus on 2 before we get into <extent> keywords?
  579. # [23:02] <fantasai> I'm talking about 2
  580. # [23:02] <fantasai> we have to think about what
  581. # [23:03] <brianman> ah, k
  582. # [23:03] <fantasai> r-d(from 25% 25% to farthest-corner) means
  583. # [23:03] <fantasai> once you have the split of focus and center
  584. # [23:03] * Quits: gilles (gilles@144.189.101.1) (Quit: gilles)
  585. # [23:03] <brianman> it means the ellipse meets the bottom right
  586. # [23:03] * Quits: vhardy (vhardy@192.150.10.201) (Ping timeout)
  587. # [23:03] <fantasai> r-do(from 25% 25% offset 50% 50% to farthest-corner)
  588. # [23:03] <brianman> if you use "at" instead of "from"
  589. # [23:03] <fantasai> vs
  590. # [23:03] <fantasai> r-do(at 25% 25% offset 50% 50% to farthest-corner)
  591. # [23:03] <fantasai> ?
  592. # [23:03] <brianman> The latter makes sense
  593. # [23:03] <fantasai> oh
  594. # [23:03] <fantasai> another question
  595. # [23:04] <brianman> The former confuses me
  596. # [23:04] <fantasai> what's being offset, the focus or the center?
  597. # [23:04] <fantasai> if we use offset
  598. # [23:04] <TabAtkins_> The focus!
  599. # [23:04] <BradK> From and to could describe the color stops (0 and 100%), while a
  600. # [23:04] <brianman> wait...
  601. # [23:04] <brianman> offset is a way of setting focal-origin relative shape-center
  602. # [23:04] <BradK> 'at' describes the focus
  603. # [23:04] <TabAtkins_> @Brad Wait. 0% color *is* the focus. I'm confused now.
  604. # [23:04] <BradK> Ya...
  605. # [23:05] <fantasai> or is offset a way of setting shape center relative to focal origin?
  606. # [23:05] <BradK> I got that wrong
  607. # [23:05] <fantasai> could go either way
  608. # [23:05] <fantasai> have to figure out which makes more sense
  609. # [23:05] <brianman> "or is"...no
  610. # [23:05] <brianman> that's craziness
  611. # [23:05] <BradK> Right now the focus is the center, right?
  612. # [23:05] <TabAtkins_> @fantasai: it makes the most sense to, for level 3, position and size the shape.
  613. # [23:05] <brianman> you have to build things in a bizarre order that way, E
  614. # [23:05] <fantasai> yeah, they're equivalent right now
  615. # [23:05] <TabAtkins_> @fantasai: Then you move the focus in level 4. That's all it does.
  616. # [23:05] <brianman> I would say it another way...
  617. # [23:06] <fantasai> the question gets trickier when you use lengths
  618. # [23:06] <brianman> in CSS3 the offset is hardcoded to 0px 0px
  619. # [23:06] <fantasai> or percentages beyond 100%
  620. # [23:06] <TabAtkins_> @Brian: Yeah, basically.
  621. # [23:06] <brianman> (and that should be the initial value in CSS4)
  622. # [23:06] <fantasai> so
  623. # [23:06] <fantasai> if I have
  624. # [23:07] <fantasai> radial-gradient(from/at 25% 25% to cover)
  625. # [23:07] <brianman> Tab, should we just start coding -vendor-radial-gradient for CSS4 while Elika and Brad figure this out? ;)
  626. # [23:07] <fantasai> would like it to be offset radial that covers the box
  627. # [23:07] <fantasai> focused at 25% 25%
  628. # [23:07] <brianman> you can't do that
  629. # [23:07] <TabAtkins_> @fantasai: then you want r-g(from/at center focus 25% 25% to cover
  630. # [23:07] <fantasai> from makes mjore sense there ..
  631. # [23:07] <brianman> in css3 feature set
  632. # [23:07] <fantasai> brianman: no, agreed
  633. # [23:08] <fantasai> we have duplicate keywords
  634. # [23:08] <fantasai> we should drop cover/contain
  635. # [23:08] <brianman> @Tab - that's about right
  636. # [23:08] <BradK> radial-gradient(at 25% 25% to cover) means you are moving the focus, radial-gradient(from 25% 25% to cover) means you are moving the center and resizing the ellipse
  637. # [23:09] <fantasai> yeah!
  638. # [23:09] <brianman> Disagree.
  639. # [23:09] <fantasai> er
  640. # [23:09] <fantasai> otherway around
  641. # [23:09] <brianman> Brad, add these color stops...
  642. # [23:09] <brianman> red, blue 100%, transparent
  643. # [23:09] <brianman> and change to contain
  644. # [23:09] <brianman> and observe the no-paint regions
  645. # [23:10] <TabAtkins_> I think the focus-moving keywords should *definitely* be 'focus'/'offset'. They need to be *unambiguous*.
  646. # [23:10] <brianman> Yah, that avoids any ambiguity.
  647. # [23:10] <brianman> should we replace from/at with another non-ambiguous keyword?
  648. # [23:10] <TabAtkins_> alan had one.
  649. # [23:10] <fantasai> target
  650. # [23:11] <BradK> OK, that allows us to still use to and from then
  651. # [23:11] <brianman> Disagree.
  652. # [23:11] <brianman> from = where the first color is placed
  653. # [23:11] <fantasai> no, that's weird too
  654. # [23:11] <brianman> and thus it's wrong for CSS4 offset/focus cases
  655. # [23:11] <fantasai> um
  656. # [23:11] <fantasai> ok
  657. # [23:11] <TabAtkins_> I wish we could use 'center'. :/
  658. # [23:12] <fantasai> hehehehe
  659. # [23:12] <brianman> question
  660. # [23:12] <fantasai> Ok, from is where the color originates
  661. # [23:12] <brianman> ... position <position>
  662. # [23:12] <fantasai> then..
  663. # [23:12] * arronei we could use bikeshed
  664. # [23:12] <TabAtkins_> Ah, hm. position might be good
  665. # [23:12] * stearns objects to bikeshed
  666. # [23:12] <BradK> 'at' just sounds weird, compared to to and from
  667. # [23:12] <fantasai> 'to farthest-corner' picks which corner?
  668. # [23:12] <BradK> Weird in context
  669. # [23:12] <TabAtkins_> brad: I kind of agree.
  670. # [23:12] * brianman -ms-bikeshed
  671. # [23:12] <fantasai> that's really where I'm stuck on
  672. # [23:13] * stearns says if you look at the original documents, the term was bicycleshed
  673. # [23:13] <TabAtkins_> Better explanation of elika's question:
  674. # [23:13] <brianman> elaborate, i'm unclear on what you're stuck on
  675. # [23:13] * Quits: lgombos (Laszlo@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  676. # [23:13] <brianman> ok, Tab is doing that...
  677. # [23:13] <BradK> Hyphen between bike and shed, I think
  678. # [23:14] * stearns ooh ooh! how about 'centre'?
  679. # [23:14] <TabAtkins_> For the implicit keywords, should they *choose* the side/corner from the focus or the shape-center? (Once chosen, the actual size is calculated from the shape-center)
  680. # [23:14] <fantasai> yeah, that's what I meant!
  681. # [23:14] <fantasai> Ok
  682. # [23:14] <fantasai> so
  683. # [23:14] <fantasai> Straw Proposal:
  684. # [23:14] <brianman> wait..hold one
  685. # [23:14] <brianman> on
  686. # [23:14] <brianman> i can answer your question
  687. # [23:15] <brianman> Q: are the extents relative to the focus-center or the shape-center? A: if they are relative to the focus-center, then you have to use non-elliptical shapes.
  688. # [23:15] <fantasai> r-d(from <focus> to <size> at <center>) with <size>'s corner-picking keywords picking corners relative to <focus>
  689. # [23:15] <brianman> A2: it's shape-center relative
  690. # [23:15] <TabAtkins_> brianman: No, not the extent itself. The side/corner chosen for figuring the extent
  691. # [23:15] <brianman> that doesn't work
  692. # [23:15] <brianman> see A:
  693. # [23:15] <fantasai> and once the corner is picked, the size is computed from the center
  694. # [23:15] <fantasai> (shape center)
  695. # [23:16] <TabAtkins_> (But I think it should be always from the shape-center. If we want chosen from focus, we can add keywords.)
  696. # [23:16] <brianman> @Tab - concur
  697. # [23:16] <BradK> Agreed
  698. # [23:16] <brianman> focus-crazy-keywords @ css4
  699. # [23:16] <brianman> shape-center-keywords @ css3
  700. # [23:17] * brianman -ms-bike-shed-writing-mode-farthest-shopping-center
  701. # [23:17] <BradK> I have to get back to work, guys
  702. # [23:17] <BradK> Maybe continue later? Monday maybe?
  703. # [23:17] <fantasai> ok
  704. # [23:18] <fantasai> sure
  705. # [23:18] <brianman> did we resolve 2?
  706. # [23:18] <fantasai> let's all think about it
  707. # [23:18] <fantasai> nope
  708. # [23:18] <brianman> ... /cry
  709. # [23:18] <TabAtkins_> We resolved some other things.
  710. # [23:18] <TabAtkins_> I'll figure out what it was we resolved later. ^_^
  711. # [23:18] <brianman> yah, we wrote have of CSS5
  712. # [23:18] <arronei> do we at least have a list of ideas
  713. # [23:18] <brianman> half
  714. # [23:18] <arronei> that we can list out
  715. # [23:18] <fantasai> Tab and I will list them out
  716. # [23:18] <fantasai> we'll make a wiki page ^_^
  717. # [23:18] <brianman> question:
  718. # [23:18] <brianman> what is r-d?
  719. # [23:18] <fantasai> radial-gradient
  720. # [23:18] <fantasai> :)
  721. # [23:18] <BradK> Ok. See ya.
  722. # [23:19] <TabAtkins_> radial-dreidel
  723. # [23:19] <brianman> tuesday reconvene with Sylvain perhaps present?
  724. # [23:19] * Quits: Rossen (Rossen@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  725. # [23:19] <TabAtkins_> kk
  726. # [23:19] <Zakim> Team_(css)21:21Z has ended
  727. # [23:19] <Zakim> Attendees were
  728. # [23:19] <fantasai> and dbaron
  729. # [23:20] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@63.145.238.4) (Quit: dsinger)
  730. # [23:20] <brianman> Tab, can you list out a set of proposed resolutions on the wiki
  731. # [23:20] <brianman> as a headstart before next discussion
  732. # [23:20] <TabAtkins_> Yup
  733. # [23:20] <brianman> assertions may be a better word
  734. # [23:21] <brianman> One more note before you leave...
  735. # [23:21] <TabAtkins_> yeah?
  736. # [23:21] <brianman> Elika, I think your focus-sensitive keyword idea is a better reason to remove cover/contain than your email
  737. # [23:21] <brianman> reserving cover/contain to me a strict paint coverage concept
  738. # [23:21] <brianman> mean*
  739. # [23:22] <fantasai> yeah
  740. # [23:22] <brianman> whereas close/far are shape-related keywords and time-tested for css3 already
  741. # [23:22] <brianman> imo
  742. # [23:23] <arronei> what's the link to the wiki again for all of this r-g() stuff
  743. # [23:23] <fantasai> they'll mean the same thing in css4
  744. # [23:23] <fantasai> we're not changing what they mean in css3
  745. # [23:23] <fantasai> because focus and center are both the same thing in css3
  746. # [23:23] <fantasai> so nthat's not changing
  747. # [23:23] <fantasai> arronei: haven't create one yet, will do in a sec
  748. # [23:23] <fantasai> brianman: make sense?
  749. # [23:24] <brianman> did we resolve that "as" proposal is rejected, and stays ","?
  750. # [23:24] <fantasai> brianman: Question isn't about what they mean now, but what they will mean once the focus and center no longer coincide
  751. # [23:24] <brianman> yah, makes sense
  752. # [23:24] <fantasai> um
  753. # [23:24] <fantasai> I forgot to bring that up, but I think that's the direction we'll go in
  754. # [23:24] <TabAtkins_> My strong preference too
  755. # [23:24] <arronei> so , separates the color list?
  756. # [23:24] <brianman> Did our , precedence and formatting arguments convince you?
  757. # [23:24] <fantasai> dbaron convinced me
  758. # [23:24] <brianman> yes, it separates the color list and the colors within it
  759. # [23:24] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  760. # [23:25] <arronei> ok that is what I want
  761. # [23:25] <fantasai> I think my proposal would be
  762. # [23:26] <fantasai> from <focus> to <size> at <center>
  763. # [23:26] <brianman> Your grammar above has to-size at-position... ship it ;)
  764. # [23:26] <fantasai> or
  765. # [23:26] <fantasai> from <focus> to <size> shift <offsets>
  766. # [23:26] <fantasai> that makes the colors go from "from" to "to"
  767. # [23:26] <fantasai> which is imo important
  768. # [23:26] <brianman> i don't like that one
  769. # [23:26] <brianman> from and shift/offset are exclusive imo
  770. # [23:26] <fantasai> and it shifts the result that you'd get otherwise
  771. # [23:27] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Ping timeout)
  772. # [23:27] <brianman> at <position> - position drives the shape today, making the algorithm bounce that in CSS4 from CSS3's is trouble
  773. # [23:27] <fantasai> 'from' would pinpoint the focus, and 'shift' would calculate the center'
  774. # [23:27] <brianman> the bounding 100% shape i mean
  775. # [23:27] <brianman> yah, that's backwards imo
  776. # [23:27] <brianman> it's like "negative offset" kinda
  777. # [23:28] * Quits: Mike5 (Mike5@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Mike5)
  778. # [23:28] <brianman> with a focal point, you're still filling the ellipse and the focal point is the calculated thing...not the ellipse center
  779. # [23:28] <brianman> doing it the opposite is, imo, confusing at best
  780. # [23:29] * Joins: Mike5 (Mike5@mcclure.w3.org)
  781. # [23:29] <fantasai> hmm
  782. # [23:30] <fantasai> you could also just use 'from' for both
  783. # [23:30] <brianman> that defeats the purpose of having the keywords...
  784. # [23:30] <brianman> (1) resolve ambiguity
  785. # [23:30] <brianman> (2) allow independent ordering
  786. # [23:30] <fantasai> if it doesn't specify a side, instead of defaulting to top left
  787. # [23:30] <fantasai> you default to the center position
  788. # [23:30] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  789. # [23:31] <brianman> if you use the same keyword twice you're proving that it's not a specific enough keyword
  790. # [23:31] <fantasai> at <position> from -5px -5px would shift the focus from <position>
  791. # [23:31] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@63.145.238.4)
  792. # [23:31] <brianman> disagree
  793. # [23:31] <fantasai> at <position> from left 5px top 5px would put the focus at that position in the box
  794. # [23:31] <brianman> in that form it should be an absolute location, not a relative one
  795. # [23:31] <brianman> rephrasing...
  796. # [23:31] <brianman> from <absolute-focal-position>
  797. # [23:32] <fantasai> if we used 'focus' instead of 'from', that would more obviously make sense :)
  798. # [23:32] <brianman> offset <of-focal-from-shape-position>
  799. # [23:32] <brianman> I'm fine with...
  800. # [23:32] <brianman> focus <position-absolute>
  801. # [23:32] <brianman> focus-offset <size-relative-to-shape-center>
  802. # [23:33] <brianman> Seeing that brings up another observation: offset is a size (1-2 fields), focus is a position (1-4).
  803. # [23:33] * Joins: drublic (drublic@77.2.154.153)
  804. # [23:34] <fantasai> combining both by defaulting the start position to the shape-center also let's you do different things in different dimensions
  805. # [23:34] <fantasai> not sure that's useful, but it becomes possible
  806. # [23:34] <brianman> "combining both"?
  807. # [23:34] <fantasai> <position> syntax has an implied start position
  808. # [23:34] <fantasai> in bgpos it defaults to the top left corner
  809. # [23:34] <fantasai> we could have it default to the shape-center
  810. # [23:35] <brianman> could have what default to shape-center?
  811. # [23:35] <fantasai> then you would do both relative offsets and absolute positioning with the same syntax
  812. # [23:35] <fantasai> could have the implied start position default to shape-center
  813. # [23:36] <brianman> "you could do ... absolute positioning with the same syntax"
  814. # [23:36] <brianman> ...no that would mean you're only using relative positioning
  815. # [23:36] <fantasai> no
  816. # [23:36] <brianman> elaborate
  817. # [23:36] <brianman> start with this...
  818. # [23:36] <brianman> <focal-params> =
  819. # [23:37] <brianman> (you fill in)
  820. # [23:37] <fantasai> <focal-params> = <position>
  821. # [23:38] <fantasai> from background-position
  822. # [23:38] <brianman> ok so...
  823. # [23:38] <fantasai> that allows each of horizontal and vertical position
  824. # [23:38] <brianman> "5px 5px" means what in that context?
  825. # [23:38] <fantasai> to be specified as a length/percentage, as a keyword, or as a pair
  826. # [23:38] <fantasai> when specified as a pair, it is offset from the keyword position
  827. # [23:38] <fantasai> when specified as a length/percentage, it is offset from the origin
  828. # [23:39] <fantasai> which for bgpos is the top left corner
  829. # [23:39] <fantasai> if we use the same syntax
  830. # [23:39] <brianman> yah, that's bad imo
  831. # [23:39] <fantasai> and define the origin as the shape-center
  832. # [23:39] <brianman> if thats how it behaves it shouldn't reuse <position> topic
  833. # [23:39] <brianman> token*
  834. # [23:39] <fantasai> then we can do both with that smae syntax
  835. # [23:39] <brianman> because it's totally differently used than in background with that interpretation
  836. # [23:39] <fantasai> I think it's perfectly reasonable. We're just defining a different default origin for the focus
  837. # [23:40] <brianman> no
  838. # [23:40] <brianman> you're defining "with one set of values, origin A" and "with another set of values, origin B"
  839. # [23:40] <brianman> which is chaotic at best
  840. # [23:41] <fantasai> no, I'm saying default origin is A
  841. # [23:41] <fantasai> so origin is A unless otherwise specified
  842. # [23:41] <brianman> a being....0,0 at shape-center?
  843. # [23:41] <fantasai> A being the shape center
  844. # [23:41] <fantasai> yes
  845. # [23:41] <brianman> that IS relative positioning
  846. # [23:41] <brianman> because it's not in box coord system
  847. # [23:41] <fantasai> that's the functionality you wanted in offset
  848. # [23:42] <brianman> = relative positioning
  849. # [23:42] <brianman> kind of
  850. # [23:42] <fantasai> k
  851. # [23:42] <brianman> but i wanted it to be a size not a position
  852. # [23:42] * Joins: gilles (gilles@144.189.101.1)
  853. # [23:42] <stearns> 'focus' is the center of the colors?
  854. # [23:42] <brianman> a position for an offset is weird/confusing
  855. # [23:42] <brianman> @stearns - concept yes, keywords still being discussed
  856. # [23:42] <fantasai> it's the same thing
  857. # [23:42] <fantasai> 5px 5px is an offset from the center
  858. # [23:42] <brianman> offset right 5px bottom 7px == bizarre
  859. # [23:43] <fantasai> you wouldn't use 'offset' there, obviously
  860. # [23:43] <brianman> why not?
  861. # [23:43] <fantasai> that would position the focus absolutely from the bottom right of the box
  862. # [23:43] <brianman> offset <position>
  863. # [23:43] <brianman> i'll reiterate: you're talking about "offset <size>" and not realizing it
  864. # [23:43] <fantasai> no, I"m not
  865. # [23:43] <brianman> so why would I "obviously" not use offset in the case above?
  866. # [23:44] <fantasai> I'm folding that into <position>
  867. # [23:44] <fantasai> the keyword 'offset' is weird when you are positioning absolutely by using keywords
  868. # [23:44] <fantasai> so you need a different keyword
  869. # [23:44] <brianman> I thought you were trying to say offset/focal can be one keyword
  870. # [23:44] <brianman> I guess I misunderstood you
  871. # [23:44] <fantasai> yes
  872. # [23:44] <fantasai> I was saying that :)
  873. # [23:45] * Quits: plinss (plinss@63.145.238.4) (Client exited)
  874. # [23:45] <brianman> <focal-params> = [focus <position> || focal-offset <size>]? <-- what I proposed above
  875. # [23:45] <fantasai> because by defining the default origin for <focal-position> to be the shape center, you get <position> to do both things
  876. # [23:45] <brianman> what does "focal-keyword right bottom" mean?
  877. # [23:46] * Joins: plinss (plinss@68.107.116.103)
  878. # [23:46] <fantasai> the focus is at the bottom right of the box
  879. # [23:46] <brianman> and "focal-keyword left top"?
  880. # [23:46] <fantasai> top left of the box
  881. # [23:46] <brianman> so how do you get relative positioning with that syntax?
  882. # [23:47] <fantasai> focal-keyword <length> <length>
  883. # [23:47] <fantasai> (or <percentage> instead of <length>)
  884. # [23:47] <brianman> so what does "focal-keyword left 0px top 0px" do?
  885. # [23:47] <fantasai> positions to the top left
  886. # [23:47] <fantasai> because you are not implying the origin of the lengths, you're stating them explicitly
  887. # [23:47] <brianman> so "focal-keyword left 0px top 0px" != "focal-keyword 0px 0px"?
  888. # [23:47] * Joins: lgombos (Laszlo@63.145.238.4)
  889. # [23:47] <fantasai> right
  890. # [23:47] <brianman> So it's not a <position>
  891. # [23:47] <fantasai> it is a <position>
  892. # [23:47] <brianman> no
  893. # [23:47] <fantasai> it's interpreted with a differnet defaultorigin
  894. # [23:48] <fantasai> the syntax is exactly the same
  895. # [23:48] <brianman> because you've pulled some of the variants inside <position> and given them a different origin
  896. # [23:48] <brianman> as such, you need to split position in two halves
  897. # [23:48] <brianman> position-when-used-in-bg and position-when-used-everywhere
  898. # [23:48] <fantasai> I've define a different DEFAULT
  899. # [23:48] <fantasai> I haven't changed anything else
  900. # [23:48] <brianman> position in radials should not include the left half of those two
  901. # [23:48] <dglazkov> what's the svg channel?
  902. # [23:48] <fantasai> #svg, isn't it?
  903. # [23:49] <dglazkov> yay
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  905. # [23:49] <brianman> So how do I say 2px right of the shape-center?
  906. # [23:50] <fantasai> focal-keyword 2px 0
  907. # [23:50] <brianman> and that behaves differently from...
  908. # [23:50] <brianman> focal-keyword left 2px top 0px?
  909. # [23:51] <fantasai> yes, because in that case you specified an explicit orign (top left) instead of relying on an implicit one
  910. # [23:52] <brianman> I interpret that as follows...
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  912. # [23:52] <brianman> 1. For some flavors of <position> you choose origin A and some you choose origin B.
  913. # [23:52] <brianman> or
  914. # [23:52] * Joins: plinss (plinss@63.145.238.4)
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  916. # [23:52] * Joins: plinss (plinss@68.107.116.103)
  917. # [23:52] <brianman> 2. For some flavors of <position>, they are not supported with focus-keyword.
  918. # [23:52] <brianman> Both are bad.
  919. # [23:52] * Joins: tantek (tantek@63.245.220.240)
  920. # [23:52] <fantasai> You're not making any sense
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  922. # [23:53] <arronei> @fantasai: you are missing a point too.
  923. # [23:53] * Joins: plinss_ (plinss@68.107.116.103)
  924. # [23:53] <fantasai> arronei: what point?
  925. # [23:53] <arronei> I think we need to chat on the phone or in person to get the correct
  926. # [23:55] * Joins: plinss__ (plinss@63.145.238.4)
  927. # [23:55] <arronei> I am somewhat lost too but I think you are trying to define 2 different orgins with the positions depending on if they have keywords in them
  928. # [23:56] * Joins: Mike5 (Mike5@mcclure.w3.org)
  929. # [23:57] <fantasai> no, not doing that
  930. # [23:57] <fantasai> there's only one origin
  931. # [23:57] <fantasai> it's the shape-center
  932. # [23:57] * Quits: plinss (plinss@68.107.116.103) (Ping timeout)
  933. # [23:57] <brianman> let's try this again...
  934. # [23:57] <fantasai> but when you specify a keyword, you start fro m there
  935. # [23:57] <brianman> in the default state, the shape-center is where in a 200 x 200 box
  936. # [23:57] * plinss__ is now known as plinss
  937. # [23:57] <fantasai> if I specify bottom 2px left 5px
  938. # [23:58] <fantasai> the offsets there are relative to the bottom left
  939. # [23:58] <fantasai> not relative to the origin
  940. # [23:58] <fantasai> in bgpos the oriign is the top left corner
  941. # [23:58] <fantasai> but the position specifye that way is not related at all to the top left rcorner
  942. # [23:58] <fantasai> you are changing what the lengths are relative to
  943. # [23:58] <fantasai> by specifying the keywords
  944. # [23:58] <fantasai> same thing here
  945. # [23:59] <brianman> ok, let's try this from a computed value standpoint
  946. # [23:59] <fantasai> except the origin is the shape-center
  947. # [23:59] <brianman> what's the computed value of <position> = "left top"?
  948. # [23:59] <fantasai> that's a fair poin,t, in bgpos it's 0 0
  949. # [23:59] <brianman> so when you inherit it, your radial-gradient focal point moves
  950. # [23:59] <brianman> ?
  951. # Session Close: Sat Nov 05 00:00:00 2011

The end :)