/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2011-11-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Nov 30 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  39. # [10:59] <drublic> anyone of you responsible for the css validator? http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/ if you try to validate `box-shadow: 0 1px 2px #000` there is an error: 0 is not a valid value, you might check this fiddle: http://fiddle.jshell.net/drublic/WM2eL/5/show/light/
  40. # [11:00] <drublic> to me this seems to be a bug
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  53. # [16:41] <fantasai> drublic: Post in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2011Nov/ ? We don't maintain the validator here, just the specs. :)
  54. # [16:42] <drublic> fantasai: thank you
  55. # [16:42] <paul_irish> s/www-validator/ccc-validator
  56. # [16:43] <fantasai> drublic: Sorry, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator-css/ is the right address
  57. # [16:44] <fantasai> drublic: and here's the bug tracker... http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=CSSValidator
  58. # [16:46] <drublic> fantasai: great. i'll file this laiter. thx again!
  59. # [16:46] <fantasai> thanks!
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  65. # [17:36] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.169)
  66. # [17:36] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/30-css-irc
  67. # [17:37] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  68. # [17:37] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 29 minutes
  69. # [17:37] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  70. # [17:37] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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  78. # [18:02] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  79. # [18:02] <Zakim> +??P37
  80. # [18:02] * Joins: divya (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  81. # [18:02] <jdaggett> zakim, ++P37 is me
  82. # [18:02] <Zakim> sorry, jdaggett, I do not recognize a party named '++P37'
  83. # [18:02] <divya> are we on?
  84. # [18:03] <jdaggett> zakim, +??P37 is me
  85. # [18:03] <Zakim> sorry, jdaggett, I do not recognize a party named '+??P37'
  86. # [18:03] <Zakim> +??P39
  87. # [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, ??P39 is me
  88. # [18:03] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  89. # [18:03] <jdaggett> zakim, ??p37 is me
  90. # [18:03] <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
  91. # [18:03] <Zakim> +??P43
  92. # [18:04] <Zakim> +plinss
  93. # [18:04] <florianr> Zakim, I am ??P43
  94. # [18:04] <Zakim> +florianr; got it
  95. # [18:04] * Joins: antonp (50a94e63@64.62.228.82)
  96. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  97. # [18:04] <Zakim> +divya
  98. # [18:05] <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
  99. # [18:05] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  100. # [18:05] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  101. # [18:05] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 6 (58%), divya (14%)
  102. # [18:05] <Zakim> +antonp
  103. # [18:05] * Joins: lhnz (lhnz@188.223.83.48)
  104. # [18:06] <Zakim> +stearns
  105. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  106. # [18:06] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  107. # [18:06] <Zakim> +kimberly
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  110. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.510.364.aaaa
  111. # [18:06] <JohnJan> zakim, microsoft has johnjan
  112. # [18:06] <Zakim> +johnjan; got it
  113. # [18:06] <fantasai> zakim, kimberly has fantasai
  114. # [18:06] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  115. # [18:06] <Zakim> +tabatkins_
  116. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Bert
  117. # [18:06] * Joins: kimberly (Kimberly@69.241.19.12)
  118. # [18:06] <Zakim> +dbaron
  119. # [18:07] <Zakim> +smfr
  120. # [18:07] * Bert aha, zakim knows me again :-)
  121. # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P70
  122. # [18:07] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P70 is me
  123. # [18:07] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  124. # [18:07] <glazou> Bert: welcome back :-D
  125. # [18:08] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  126. # [18:08] <Zakim> +howcome
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  129. # [18:08] <Zakim> +Oliver_Goldman
  130. # [18:09] <plinss> zakim, who is noisy?
  131. # [18:09] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  132. # [18:09] <Zakim> plinss, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 18 (8%)
  133. # [18:09] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 18 (47%), glazou (18%), plinss (5%), tabatkins_ (90%)
  134. # [18:10] <divya> hahahah
  135. # [18:10] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  136. # [18:10] <Zakim> +??P22
  137. # [18:10] <kojiishi> zakim, ??p22 is me
  138. # [18:10] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
  139. # [18:10] <tantek> Zakim, IPcaller is tantek
  140. # [18:10] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
  141. # [18:10] <glazou> wow, this becomes impossible to listen too :-D
  142. # [18:10] <tantek> Zakim, mute tantek
  143. # [18:10] <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
  144. # [18:11] <danielweck> WTF ?
  145. # [18:11] * tantek will be away from IRC for a bit
  146. # [18:11] * sylvaing "I can hear dead people..."
  147. # [18:11] <danielweck> :)
  148. # [18:11] <divya> :D
  149. # [18:11] <TabAtkins_> ScribeNick: TabAtkins_
  150. # [18:12] <TabAtkins_> Topic: Unicode TR50 update
  151. # [18:12] * Quits: ed (ed@88.131.66.80) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
  152. # [18:12] <TabAtkins_> jdaggett: There was an item on Ed and Sylvain to report back.
  153. # [18:12] <TabAtkins_> smfr: Ted can't make it today.
  154. # [18:12] <TabAtkins_> jdaggett: But he said he would have an update by next week.
  155. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: And I'm a bit busy with the next preview, but I'm hoping to have it soon.
  156. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Okay, defer to next week.
  157. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> Topic: Remaining CSS3 Speech issues
  158. # [18:13] <danielweck> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-speech#issue-1
  159. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> danielweck: This issue is contentious.
  160. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> danielweck: Last I heard form the commenter was 29 Sep.
  161. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> danielweck: I've sent two heads-up.
  162. # [18:14] <danielweck> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-speech/#cue-props
  163. # [18:14] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  164. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> danielweck: As far as I understand, the normative text regarding the use of decibels - I agreed we have an issue with normative vs informative text here.
  165. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> danielweck: However, because of the lack of further discussion from the commenter, I'm not entirely sure what the correct position is regarding which statements are normative.
  166. # [18:15] * Joins: SteveZ (chatzilla@24.6.120.172)
  167. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> danielweck: There are some problems with the informative statements we're making about the decibel levels from the output of speech synthesizers, so we need to remove that.
  168. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> danielweck: So two question.
  169. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> danielweck: One, what do we do if we don't get feedback?
  170. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> danielweck: Two, in terms of the process, what happens if we decide to mark this particular issue part of the syntax at-risk? Not the entire property, just the decibel part.
  171. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> danielweck: Does that require going back to WD, or what? How fixable are we?
  172. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I'd say to do your best to address the person's feedback. Then record in the disposition of comments the comments and the changes you've made, and record that you haven't gotten a response from them.
  173. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: You've given them plenty of time and reminders. If they don't respond by the time we take the DoC to the director, he can still review their comments and check that you've addressed them.
  174. # [18:16] <danielweck> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-speech#issue-18
  175. # [18:17] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Regarding marking something as at-risk, you can do that now. It doesn't require going back to WD.
  176. # [18:17] <TabAtkins_> danielweck: Second issue, issue 18. Not a blocking issue, just waiting for confirmation.
  177. # [18:17] <TabAtkins_> danielweck: I don't think they'd raise an objection if we completed without a confirmation.
  178. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> danielweck: So in terms of timeframe, what's a reasonable or typical timeframe when writing the call for implementation?
  179. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: The timeframe for CR is generally taken as a minimum. Usually a six-month minimum, but usually it takes longer than that to get the testsuite and the impl reports, etc.
  180. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: With regards to the transition, the comment period has closed. If you don't get a response at all in a week or two, I think it's fair to say that's long enough to either respond or request additional time for investigation.
  181. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> danielweck: Okay.
  182. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> danielweck: My status as a contributor to the spec in the coming year - we want to work with the spec through CR, including making the testsuite, etc.
  183. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> danielweck: But I'm not entirely sure who'll be handling the impl reports, liaising with browsers, etc.
  184. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I think that's fine. We should probably ask the epub folks to look for somebody to own the testsuite.
  185. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> danielweck: I'm in the epub and that's our plan too.
  186. # [18:21] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Nov/0735.html
  187. # [18:21] <TabAtkins_> Topic: New draft of Japanese Text Layout spec
  188. # [18:21] <TabAtkins_> plinss: If you have any interest, please look at it and give feedback. They're looking for comments by the end of the year.
  189. # [18:21] <TabAtkins_> jdaggett: Is there a list of changes?
  190. # [18:21] <TabAtkins_> florianr: Agreed, it's a long document.
  191. # [18:22] <TabAtkins_> [several]: No clue what the changes are.
  192. # [18:22] <TabAtkins_> jdaggett: I sent a message to Richard asking for that.
  193. # [18:22] <TabAtkins_> kojiishi: I talked to Richard and not sure how that went.
  194. # [18:22] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Perhaps reply online?
  195. # [18:22] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  196. # [18:22] <TabAtkins_> szilles: Even a diff against the old one, since it's structured the same.
  197. # [18:22] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 12 seconds I could not identify any sounds
  198. # [18:22] <fantasai> !?
  199. # [18:23] <glazou> thank you Zakim to let me know my ears get older
  200. # [18:23] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/ideas/radial-gradient-readability
  201. # [18:23] <TabAtkins_> Topic: Radial Gradient Readability
  202. # [18:23] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: At TPAC Tab and I decided to investigate the issue of making radial gradient syntax more readable, and more extnesible as a side-effect.
  203. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: We worked with other WG members to come up with a syntax which we posted to the blog, per our action item.
  204. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: We got some feedback, it was somewhat mixed.
  205. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: One of the things we noted was that the proposed syntax used the "to" keyword to distinguish the size from the position, but that seemed confusing/awkward to people.
  206. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: So we tweaked the proposed syntax a bit to remove that. The new version is up on the wiki.
  207. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: It's simpler than before.
  208. # [18:25] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: The only thing needed is to distinguish the size from the position, but only one of them needs a special marker to resolve the parsing/reading ambiguity.
  209. # [18:25] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: So the proposal is "radial-gradient( [<shape> || <size> ] [at <position>]?, <color-stops> )"
  210. # [18:26] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: In the old syntax, you couldn't specify *just* an explicit size, because of the parsing ambiguity. That's gone now. It's also clearer that the number after "at" are a position.
  211. # [18:26] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: An example would be "radial-gradient(5em circle at top left, ...)"
  212. # [18:27] <TabAtkins_> jdaggett: You just put this proposal on the wiki today?
  213. # [18:27] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I put the latest version up yesterday, and rearranged the text today.
  214. # [18:28] <TabAtkins_> florianr: The polls were inconclusive. I support the readability initiative, but if it's not a big change, I'm not sure it's worthwhile, given the cost of syntax changing.
  215. # [18:29] <TabAtkins_> howcome: I have a comment in general on replacing commas with keywords, such as "as" in attr(). I don't think it's worthwhile if we already ahve something working. But I don't have a comment on gradients specifically.
  216. # [18:30] <TabAtkins_> kimberly: I think the old syntax is only really useful with generating tools; it's too hard to write by hand. The newer syntax can actually be remembered.
  217. # [18:30] <TabAtkins_> florianr: I agree that it's more readable, but I'm not convinced it's particular more rememberable to be more writeable.
  218. # [18:31] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: Readability isn't just reading a stylesheet, it's also "does it make sense?". If you see the gradient and some possible forms for it, can you pick the right one?
  219. # [18:31] <dbaron> q+
  220. # [18:31] * Zakim sees dbaron on the speaker queue
  221. # [18:31] <TabAtkins_> glazou: We already have four syntaxes in the wild. This will be a fifth one. Will impls drop the old ones rapidly?
  222. # [18:32] <TabAtkins_> glazou: For editting tools, this will be hell.
  223. # [18:32] <TabAtkins_> smfr: Webkit won't change its prefixed syntax.
  224. # [18:32] <Bert> q+ to to ask [but feel free to ignore]: Would it help to pull the <shape> out of the parentheses and put it in the function name? radial-gradient(...) vs circle-gradient(...).
  225. # [18:32] * Zakim sees dbaron, to on the speaker queue
  226. # [18:33] <Bert> q- to
  227. # [18:33] * Zakim sees dbaron on the speaker queue
  228. # [18:33] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: And MS might even keep its prefixed one around for a while, since it's compatible with existing content.
  229. # [18:33] <Bert> q+ to ask [but feel free to ignore]: Would it help to pull the <shape> out of the parentheses and put it in the function name? radial-gradient(...) vs circle-gradient(...).
  230. # [18:33] * Zakim sees dbaron, Bert on the speaker queue
  231. # [18:33] <TabAtkins_> divya: [didn't capture it well]
  232. # [18:33] <glazou> Zakim, ack dbaron
  233. # [18:33] <Zakim> I see Bert on the speaker queue
  234. # [18:33] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I heard people comparing it to "the old syntax", but there's not one single old syntax.
  235. # [18:34] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I think the stuff that led to this change was several feature additions, and if we keep the "old syntax", we should reverse those feature changes as well.
  236. # [18:34] <dbaron> Tab: that's the explicit sizing
  237. # [18:34] <fantasai> q+
  238. # [18:34] * Zakim sees Bert, fantasai on the speaker queue
  239. # [18:35] <Zakim> -tantek
  240. # [18:35] <florianr> q+
  241. # [18:35] * Zakim sees Bert, fantasai, florianr on the speaker queue
  242. # [18:36] <TabAtkins_> plinss: There's been discussion of prefixes around. The *entire reason* we have prefixes is so we don't have to worry about legacy content here. So I'm not going to accept any arguments about not changing something because there is prefixed content.
  243. # [18:36] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: There is a *lot* of content out there already in a particular syntax.
  244. # [18:37] * Quits: arno (arno@192.150.10.200) (Quit: Leaving.)
  245. # [18:37] <Zakim> -danielweck
  246. # [18:37] * Joins: arno (arno@192.150.10.200)
  247. # [18:37] <Zakim> +??P12
  248. # [18:37] <danielweck> Zakim, P12 is me
  249. # [18:37] <Zakim> sorry, danielweck, I do not recognize a party named 'P12'
  250. # [18:37] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P12 is me
  251. # [18:37] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  252. # [18:37] <dbaron> dbaron: I don't think relevant topics should be ruled out-of-order.
  253. # [18:37] <glazou> SOUNDS LIKE A PLAN :-)
  254. # [18:38] <dbaron> ack Bert
  255. # [18:38] <Zakim> Bert, you wanted to ask [but feel free to ignore]: Would it help to pull the <shape> out of the parentheses and put it in the function name? radial-gradient(...) vs
  256. # [18:38] <Zakim> ... circle-gradient(...).
  257. # [18:38] * Zakim sees fantasai, florianr on the speaker queue
  258. # [18:38] * sylvaing editor killing himself is the new Last Call
  259. # [18:38] <plinss> q?
  260. # [18:38] * Zakim sees fantasai, florianr on the speaker queue
  261. # [18:38] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: The shape is the *least* confusing part of the syntax. Pulling it out wouldn't actually help.
  262. # [18:39] <antonp> @sylaing: :-D
  263. # [18:39] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: This isn't just about radial gradients, or just about *today's* radial gradients. This "more readable" or "more CSS-y" syntax also lets us expand this more easily in the future, such as adding in the features present in the original webkit gradients.
  264. # [18:40] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: This also applies for more than radial gradients. The attr() function is an example. It originally took only one argument. Now it takes 3. Perhaps it will take 4 in future (a selector for which children to take the attr from?). As more args get added, it becomes more confusing.
  265. # [18:40] <glazou> q+
  266. # [18:40] * Zakim sees fantasai, florianr, glazou on the speaker queue
  267. # [18:40] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: What we're trying to do here is to take the CSS value syntax and the fundamental properties we use to develop that, and move that into functions as well, since we seem to have a good handle on extensibility in normal properties.
  268. # [18:40] <glazou> Zakim, ack fantasai
  269. # [18:40] <Zakim> I see florianr, glazou on the speaker queue
  270. # [18:41] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: If we stick with comma-separated, this limits our ability to extend not only radial gradients, but also other functions in the future.
  271. # [18:41] <TabAtkins_> howcome: The current syntax still uses commas, though, right?
  272. # [18:41] * sylvaing prefixed commas!
  273. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Yes, but in the traditional CSS meaning, separating a list of similar values.
  274. # [18:42] * jdaggett sylvaing behave!
  275. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> florianr: I'm receptive to fantasai's argument regarding extensibility. I have nothing against it.
  276. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> florianr: So for the sake of extensibility, I'm rather in favor of this wiki proposal.
  277. # [18:42] <plinss> ack florianr
  278. # [18:42] * Zakim sees glazou on the speaker queue
  279. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> florianr: For readability, I'm less convinced in this particular case.
  280. # [18:43] <TabAtkins_> florianr: Regarding prefixing, I agree we shouldn't consider it forbidden to change prefixed things. But we also shouldn't pretend the cost is zero.
  281. # [18:43] <jdaggett> ack glazou
  282. # [18:43] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  283. # [18:43] <plinss> ack glazou
  284. # [18:43] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  285. # [18:43] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Agree, and clarify what I said earlier. I said it's hell for editors, but [something I missed].
  286. # [18:44] <TabAtkins_> glazou: smfr said that webkit won't drop its prefix, so what will you do, use a second prefix?
  287. # [18:44] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  288. # [18:44] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Unfortunately, because this is so successful, it has left the field of "experimental feature".
  289. # [18:44] <tantek> Zakim, IPcaller is tantek
  290. # [18:44] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
  291. # [18:44] * stearns notices we have 20 minutes left on the call
  292. # [18:45] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: No, webkit is not going to use a second prefix. They'll switch to the new syntax when the drop prefixes.
  293. # [18:45] <sylvaing> if I'm hearing this right, it sounds like prefixes are meant to enable us to fix success
  294. # [18:45] * tantek thinks there will be an overlap time when both prefixed and unprefixed versions are implemented.
  295. # [18:45] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: So there will be no new prefixed versions. They'll just implement the new syntax, unprefixed.
  296. # [18:45] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Is that the case for everyone?
  297. # [18:45] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: For Moz, yes.
  298. # [18:45] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: For MS, yes.
  299. # [18:46] <TabAtkins_> florianr: Opera hasn't made a decision, but will likely do the same.
  300. # [18:46] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Prefixes become more painful the longer we keep them around. So the best solution to the entire prefix mess is for us to do our job and move things quickly.
  301. # [18:46] * tantek agrees with Peter.
  302. # [18:47] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: So in that vein, Tab and I propose to resolve on this syntax and publish a WD.
  303. # [18:47] * oyvind remembers this being said before...
  304. # [18:48] <TabAtkins_> jdaggett: I want to reiterate that this syntax was just put up on the wiki yesterday?
  305. # [18:48] * Bert (If the # of commas is a problem: you can also extend by changing the name: old radial(a b c) and new radial4(a,b,c,d).)
  306. # [18:48] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Yes, but it's identical to the old syntax except for the removal of "to", because the blog post comments pretty consistently found it confusing.
  307. # [18:48] <divya> agreed with fantasai for new syntax
  308. # [18:48] <divya> agreed
  309. # [18:48] <TabAtkins_> plinss: There are some general objections, but nothing specific to this. I hear general consensus.
  310. # [18:48] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Accept the new gradient syntax on the wiki.
  311. # [18:49] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Publish a new WD of Image Values.
  312. # [18:49] * kimberly watching fantasai do a happy dance :)
  313. # [18:49] * sylvaing push, push, push...it's a....DRAFT!
  314. # [18:49] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  315. # [18:49] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I've been resolving issues or logging them on CSS3 Lists
  316. # [18:50] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: If ppl who have issues want to bring them up, bring them up. I'll respond; not leading right now.
  317. # [18:50] <fantasai> howcome: I reviewed this over several months now, and I do think it has basically the toolkit it's offering authors is good.
  318. # [18:50] <fantasai> howcome: They can create their own counter styles, and use them as if they were native to CSS.
  319. # [18:50] <fantasai> howcome: I think Tab's done a great job of expressing commonly expressed list types
  320. # [18:51] <fantasai> howcome: The draft has 2 parts I don't think fit in there.
  321. # [18:51] <fantasai> howcome: First is pre-defined counter styles
  322. # [18:51] <fantasai> howcome: They may or may not be correct
  323. # [18:51] <fantasai> howcome: They may or not be used.
  324. # [18:51] <fantasai> howcome: I believe most will not be used
  325. # [18:51] <fantasai> howcome: And there may or may not be thousands of other list styles we should have in there.
  326. # [18:51] <fantasai> howcome: I propose for now that we don't do pre-defined counter styles
  327. # [18:51] <fantasai> howcome: So that's for Chapter 10
  328. # [18:52] <fantasai> howcome: We can keep it in an informative appendix, or have W3C host a stylesheet authors could @import
  329. # [18:52] <fantasai> jdaggett: I think that's a really good idea.
  330. # [18:52] <fantasai> jdaggett: I like that idea because it allows for shared usage, allows ... implementations
  331. # [18:52] <fantasai> jdaggett: Also makes it so the definitions are malleable
  332. # [18:52] <glazou> q+
  333. # [18:52] * Zakim sees glazou on the speaker queue
  334. # [18:52] <fantasai> jdaggett: There's a lot less burden to adding things.
  335. # [18:52] * fantasai can't hear
  336. # [18:53] <fantasai> jdaggett: ... haven't totally verified the correctness of
  337. # [18:53] <fantasai> florianr: I think there was a clear benefit to coming up with all these styles initially, to ensure the generic mechanism can represent them alll
  338. # [18:53] <fantasai> florianr: But I agree that it's overhead to verify that they're right, to implement, to test, etc.
  339. # [18:53] <fantasai> florianr: For not much benefit, since they can be written in a stylesheet
  340. # [18:53] <fantasai> florianr: I would keep them as an example of how to do it
  341. # [18:54] <fantasai> glazou: Hosting the stylesheet at W3C will generate a lot of traffic, and W3C pays for that.
  342. # [18:54] <fantasai> glazou: Validator for instance already generates a lot of traffic.
  343. # [18:54] <fantasai> glazou: it's very expensive
  344. # [18:54] <fantasai> howcome: We host the Core Stylesheets, and bandwidth was more expensive then.
  345. # [18:54] * fantasai notes that almost nobody uses the Core Stylesheets
  346. # [18:54] <fantasai> jdaggett: Requiring it means we have to verify that it's right.
  347. # [18:55] <glazou> let's move the whole WG under chapter 11 :-p
  348. # [18:55] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Proposal: we take Chapter 10, maybe 11 etc, put them into a separate spec
  349. # [18:55] <Zakim> -tantek
  350. # [18:55] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: They could remain informative, or be normative. Either way the status of the predefined styles won't hinder or affect the status of the overall Lists spec
  351. # [18:55] <fantasai> jdaggett: I would be fine moving these out to a different spec
  352. # [18:56] <fantasai> jdaggett: I think the proposal we were talking about would be better here [...
  353. # [18:56] <fantasai> jdaggett: This is where we're defining the counter styles
  354. # [18:56] <Bert> q+ to suggest making the chapter 10 into a Note.
  355. # [18:56] * Zakim sees glazou, Bert on the speaker queue
  356. # [18:56] <fantasai> TabAtkins: The problem with keeping them here is that it's harder to rev the entire Lists spec than to rev a separate Lists document.
  357. # [18:56] <fantasai> glazou: I have compromise. There's a tool we never use: W3C Note
  358. # [18:56] <fantasai> glazou: They are much simpler than specs, almost informative.
  359. # [18:57] <fantasai> glazou: We could release somethng there, it's visible and usable
  360. # [18:57] <dbaron> Today that would be called a "Working Group Note", I think.
  361. # [18:57] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  362. # [18:57] <fantasai> glazou: Maybe not 100% correct, but if you find a mistake, please help us.
  363. # [18:57] <fantasai> q+
  364. # [18:57] * Zakim sees glazou, Bert, fantasai on the speaker queue
  365. # [18:57] <tantek> Zakim, IPcaller is tantek
  366. # [18:57] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
  367. # [18:57] <glazou> Zakim, ack glazou
  368. # [18:57] <Zakim> I see Bert, fantasai on the speaker queue
  369. # [18:57] <dbaron> Also, we should keep the CSS2 styles in the spec.
  370. # [18:57] <Bert> q-
  371. # [18:57] * Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue
  372. # [18:57] <fantasai> florianr: But it would be just informative for authors, not asking UA styles to implement them.
  373. # [18:58] <Zakim> -tantek
  374. # [18:58] <fantasai> howcome: I think we could make rapid progress on Lists if this issue goes away
  375. # [18:58] <fantasai> dbaron: Which parts of Chapter 11 are you removing?
  376. # [18:58] <tantek> CSS2.1
  377. # [18:58] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Everything except the CSS2.1 styles
  378. # [18:58] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: But parts about the longhand chinese styles would go with Chapter 10, and Chapter 12 as well
  379. # [18:58] <fantasai> dbaron: 2.1 had one of the CJK styles, and I think we should keep the stuff that was in 2.1 in CSS3 Lists
  380. # [18:59] <fantasai> howcome: I agree, but Tab can express it up to 1000 with @counter-style
  381. # [18:59] <fantasai> florianr: I'm not convinced the predefined styles need to go with the new things.
  382. # [18:59] <fantasai> jdaggett: Why don't we resolve to take them out, and then figure out how to parcel them out at a later point
  383. # [18:59] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Client exited)
  384. # [18:59] <fantasai> dbaron: I'd still like to know what we're taking out and what we're keeping
  385. # [19:00] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: I would keep the ones defined in 2.1, defining them in @counter-style is possible and easy
  386. # [19:00] * tantek is now getting "This passcode is not valid."
  387. # [19:00] * Joins: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19)
  388. # [19:00] <fantasai> TabAtkins lists styles in 2.1
  389. # [19:00] <tantek> when trying to rejoin the call
  390. # [19:00] <fantasai> TabAtkins notes they're very badly specified in 2.1
  391. # [19:00] <jdaggett> we're talking about moving out section 10, 11, 12 but keeping things from 2.1
  392. # [19:00] <fantasai> TabAtkins: In 2.0 we had ideographic, not in 2.1
  393. # [19:00] <fantasai> dbaron: The stuff in 2.0 is widely implemented, we should keep it.
  394. # [19:01] <fantasai> fantasai: It's also required for EPUB
  395. # [19:01] <fantasai> q+
  396. # [19:01] * Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue
  397. # [19:01] <fantasai> howcome: I don't think we should do that, we took them out of 2.1
  398. # [19:01] <fantasai> howcome: We found a better way for ppl to create these types themselves.
  399. # [19:01] <fantasai> dbaron: *Can* they create them themselves?
  400. # [19:01] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  401. # [19:02] <tantek> hence keep stuff that was in 2.1 rather than 2.0
  402. # [19:02] <tantek> Zakim, IPcaller is tantek
  403. # [19:02] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
  404. # [19:02] <fantasai> TabAtkins: The chinese-informal styles can be expressed using hacks around fallback. I put an example of how to do it
  405. # [19:02] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: I can do it up to 999 by creating 11 counter styles
  406. # [19:02] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Might be able to drop it to 3 styles
  407. # [19:02] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: I could copy-paste it, wouldn't expect an average author to do.
  408. # [19:03] <fantasai> florianr: Can we say we remove everything except what was in 2.1 and maybe in addition to that what was in 2.0 and is also interoperably implemented?
  409. # [19:03] * fantasai still hasn't gotten to speak :(
  410. # [19:03] <plinss> q?
  411. # [19:03] * Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue
  412. # [19:04] <fantasai> :( :( :(
  413. # [19:04] <glazou> howcome: http://weasyprint.org/
  414. # [19:05] <tantek> plinss, remaining agenda items getting pushed to next week presumably?
  415. # [19:05] * plinss yes, it's more of a backlog than a target for one call...
  416. # [19:05] <Zakim> -danielweck
  417. # [19:05] * Joins: danielweck_ (danielweck@86.155.167.189)
  418. # [19:05] * Quits: danielweck (danielweck@81.157.14.54) (Ping timeout)
  419. # [19:05] * danielweck_ is now known as danielweck
  420. # [19:05] <Zakim> -stearns
  421. # [19:06] <tantek> millions of authors? are there that many that want/need the extra features?
  422. # [19:06] <fantasai> fantasai say something and nobody minutes it
  423. # [19:06] <fantasai> other people say stuff and fantasai didn't minute it either
  424. # [19:07] * tantek agrees with Håkon, fancy list-styles are similar to fancy fonts.
  425. # [19:07] <divya> :)
  426. # [19:07] <divya> sorry fantasai
  427. # [19:07] <smfr> gtg
  428. # [19:07] <jdaggett> the problem with predefined lists is that
  429. # [19:07] * Quits: smfr (smfr@173.228.90.57) (Quit: smfr)
  430. # [19:07] <glazou> tantek: I disagree, numbering is part of culture, it should just work
  431. # [19:07] <Zakim> -smfr
  432. # [19:07] <fantasai> howcome: The problem we'll have is we're surely going to find errors in that list, and if we hard-code it into the UA we're going to be stuck with those errors.
  433. # [19:07] <jdaggett> 1) we have to assure the list is correct
  434. # [19:07] * Quits: ericm (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  435. # [19:07] <tantek> glazou - that's a reasonable distinction.
  436. # [19:07] <jdaggett> 2) we need to decide the priority
  437. # [19:07] <Zakim> - +1.510.364.aaaa
  438. # [19:08] <fantasai> florianr: People will rely on it being wrong
  439. # [19:08] <jdaggett> and that's hard because stylistic variations occur
  440. # [19:08] <fantasai> fantasai: Won't rely on it being wrong, will rely on it being correct and occasionally be disappointed
  441. # [19:08] <jdaggett> which is more important?
  442. # [19:08] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I can take either way.
  443. # [19:08] <fantasai> FWIW, I have no objection to pulling them into a separate spec
  444. # [19:08] <dbaron> I thought this was the main thing in the lists spec.
  445. # [19:08] <fantasai> just to foisting the entire responsibility onto the authors
  446. # [19:09] <fantasai> howcome: If we put it in a new spec, it shouldn't be necessarily predefined
  447. # [19:09] <vhardy> sorry, need to drop off.
  448. # [19:09] <Zakim> -Oliver_Goldman
  449. # [19:09] <tantek> I'm in favor of whatever helps the editor move more quickly.
  450. # [19:09] <dbaron> I tend towards agreeing with fantasai; I also need to leave.
  451. # [19:09] * fantasai would like to hear dbaron's opinion on this
  452. # [19:10] <fantasai> plinss: I'm hearing no objection to splitting out the predefined counter styles into a separate spec
  453. # [19:10] <fantasai> howcome: this resolves a bunch of my objections
  454. # [19:10] <Zakim> -dbaron
  455. # [19:10] * fantasai can we just publish a WD and split it later?
  456. # [19:11] * Quits: JohnJan (johnjan@131.107.0.81) (Quit: JohnJan)
  457. # [19:11] <Zakim> -glazou
  458. # [19:11] <Zakim> -kimberly
  459. # [19:11] <fantasai> RESOLVED: split predefined counter styles into a separate spec
  460. # [19:11] <Zakim> -howcome
  461. # [19:11] <Zakim> -jdaggett
  462. # [19:11] <Zakim> -antonp
  463. # [19:11] <Zakim> -divya
  464. # [19:11] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  465. # [19:11] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  466. # [19:11] * Quits: antonp (50a94e63@64.62.228.82) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  467. # [19:11] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  468. # [19:11] <Zakim> -florianr
  469. # [19:11] <Zakim> -kojiishi
  470. # [19:11] <Zakim> -Bert
  471. # [19:11] <Zakim> -plinss
  472. # [19:11] <Zakim> -tabatkins_
  473. # [19:11] <Zakim> -tantek
  474. # [19:11] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  475. # [19:11] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, jdaggett, plinss, florianr, divya, sylvaing, antonp, stearns, [Microsoft], +1.510.364.aaaa, johnjan, fantasai, tabatkins_, Bert, dbaron, smfr, danielweck,
  476. # [19:11] <Zakim> ... howcome, Oliver_Goldman, kojiishi, tantek, SteveZ
  477. # [19:11] * Quits: danielweck (danielweck@86.155.167.189) (Quit: danielweck)
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  482. # [19:12] <fantasai> Meeting closed.
  483. # [19:13] * Quits: divya (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
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  532. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Just hit an interesting use-case where using :matches() and the subject indicator is much more difficult than using :has().
  533. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> You want to select the preceding tr to the scope, even if it's in a preceding tbody.
  534. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> With has, this is:
  535. # [23:19] <TabAtkins> :matches(tr:has(+tr:scope), tbody:has(+tbody>tr:first-child:scope) > tr:last-child)
  536. # [23:19] <TabAtkins> With matches+subject indicator, this is:
  537. # [23:20] <TabAtkins> :matches( tr! + tr:scope, :matches(tbody! + tbody > tr:first-child:scope) > tr:last-child )
  538. # [23:20] <TabAtkins> I think the use of :matches() solely to scope the subject indicator is confusing there.
  539. # [23:20] <TabAtkins> It took me a little bit of thinking to come up with it, at least.
  540. # [23:26] * Joins: drublic (drublic@77.2.156.89)
  541. # Session Close: Thu Dec 01 00:00:00 2011

The end :)