/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-01-11 / end

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# [14:54] <Company> did somebody change the css for http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/ ? It feels harder to read because the .css and .property classes have a smaller font size and use a serif font here
# [14:54] <Company> eg the paragraphs below http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/#background-origin
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# [17:33] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/11-css-irc
# [17:33] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:33] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 34 minutes
# [17:33] <glazou> rrsagent, make logs public
# [17:33] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
# [17:37] <nimbu> apologies cant maek it to the meeting, will be commuting
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# [17:37] <glazou> noted nimbu
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# [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, code?
# [18:03] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
# [18:03] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [18:03] <Zakim> +??P17
# [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, ??P17 is me
# [18:03] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [18:04] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
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# [18:04] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:04] * Zakim sees on the phone: glazou, [Mozilla]
# [18:04] * dbaron Zakim, [Mozilla] is dbaron
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# [18:06] <florianr> Zakim, I am ??P44
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# [18:06] <tantek> Zakim, aaaa is tantek
# [18:06] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
# [18:06] <tantek> Zakim mute tantek
# [18:07] <tantek> Zakim, mute tantek
# [18:07] <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
# [18:07] <Zakim> +antonp
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# [18:08] <JohnJansen> Zakim, microsoft has JohnJansen
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# [18:08] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:08] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, dbaron, plinss, florianr, tantek (muted), hober, antonp, [Microsoft], +1.215.286.aabb, smfr, stearns, ??P58, ??P61, ??P64
# [18:08] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
# [18:09] <Rossen> Zakim, ??P61 has Rossen
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# [18:09] <fantasai> Zakim, ??P64 is fantasai
# [18:09] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
# [18:09] <fantasai> zakim, mute fantasai
# [18:09] <Zakim> fantasai should now be muted
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# [18:09] <kimberly> Zakim, +1.215.286.aabb is me
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# [18:09] <Zakim> +Bert
# [18:09] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:09] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, dbaron, plinss, florianr, tantek (muted), hober, antonp, [Microsoft], kimberly, smfr, stearns, ??P58, ??P61, fantasai (muted), Bert
# [18:09] <Zakim> ??P61 has Rossen
# [18:09] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
# [18:09] <glazou> Zakim, ??P61 is Rossen
# [18:09] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
# [18:11] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
# [18:11] <fantasai> Daniel: Happy New Year everyone!
# [18:11] <fantasai> Daniel: Extra items?
# [18:11] <Rossen> HNY Daniel!
# [18:11] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jan/0034.html
# [18:11] <fantasai> Topic: Proposal about detecting JavaScript from Media Queries
# [18:11] <fantasai> Daniel: Florian said he is willing to add that to the editor's draft
# [18:12] <Zakim> +??P32
# [18:12] <fantasai> Florian: I do not want to add that for L3, but when considering L4 I think this is interesting both on its own merits and as a general trend of what I'm thinking about
# [18:12] <kojiishi> zakim, ??p32 is me
# [18:12] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
# [18:12] <fantasai> Florian: Usefulness described in ML
# [18:12] <fantasai> Florian: For L4, I was thinking to develop more media features
# [18:12] <fantasai> Florian: Currently we detect print as a media type
# [18:12] <fantasai> Florian: Doesn't work well because you can't be both print and screen
# [18:12] <fantasai> Florian: But some devices share aspects of both
# [18:13] <fantasai> Florian: Would be good to detect whether you are paged or not, screen can be refreshed or not,
# [18:13] <fantasai> Florain: detect whether there is a touch screen
# [18:13] <fantasai> Florian: This way can adapt layout for the device without knowing exactly what it is
# [18:13] <fantasai> Daniel: Other opinions?
# [18:13] <fantasai> fantasai: Sounds good to me
# [18:14] <stearns> +1 florian
# [18:14] <Zakim> +??P12
# [18:14] <TabAtkins> +lots
# [18:14] * Zakim wonders where lots is
# [18:14] <Bert> q+ to ask if this isn't for CC/PP (UAProf) instead?
# [18:14] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
# [18:14] <fantasai> Kimberly: Certainly for ComCast devs, when we read the proposal, were very excited. A lot of interest amongst the dev community here
# [18:14] <fantasai> Anton: Someone mentioned NoScript on the mailing list
# [18:14] <tantek> sounds good to me also. (add js detection to media queries 4)
# [18:14] <fantasai> Anton: Can choose to run script on some domain, not others
# [18:15] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P12 is me
# [18:15] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
# [18:15] <fantasai> Anton: Difficulty with CSS support statement that you either support script or you don't, not clear what it means
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# [18:15] <fantasai> Anton: If I allow base domain to run scripts, but not third-party domains to run scripts, what then?
# [18:16] <tantek> I don't think a URL check is necessary for the common case.
# [18:16] <fantasai> Florian: Haven't thought about that. Maybe we choose yes or no for some scripts. Or maybe we have a finer distinction
# [18:16] <tantek> there are enough 3rd party script blockers that sites have to work without 3rd party scripts anyway
# [18:16] <fantasai> Bert: Wondering if this opens a can of worms.
# [18:16] <glazou> tantek: speak up !
# [18:16] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aacc
# [18:16] <fantasai> Bert: Script is rather high level, but other things you could want
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# [18:17] <fantasai> Bert: Might need a way to control the vocabulary
# [18:17] <tantek> q+ to comment on 3rd party scripts, CC/PP
# [18:17] * Zakim sees Bert, tantek on the speaker queue
# [18:17] <fantasai> Bert: Something called CCPP has a URL-based vocabulary and framework
# [18:17] <fantasai> Bert: Let's use that
# [18:17] <sylvaing> Zakim, who is on the phone
# [18:17] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', sylvaing
# [18:17] <sylvaing> Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:17] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, dbaron, plinss, florianr, tantek (muted), hober, antonp, [Microsoft], kimberly, smfr, stearns, ??P58, Rossen, fantasai (muted), Bert, kojiishi,
# [18:17] <Zakim> ... danielweck, +1.206.324.aacc
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# [18:17] <Zakim> Rossen has Rossen
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# [18:17] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
# [18:17] <tantek> Zakim, unmute tantek
# [18:17] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aadd
# [18:17] <fantasai> Daniel: Is that implemented in browsers?
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# [18:17] <Zakim> tantek should no longer be muted
# [18:17] <fantasai> Bert: Some mobile browsers
# [18:17] <sylvaing> Zakim, aacc is sylvaing
# [18:17] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
# [18:18] <fantasai> Tantek: I think the 3rd party script case is, from dev standpoint, an edge case
# [18:18] <fantasai> Tantek: Rather than presenting as a problem, would like to know why we care?
# [18:18] <fantasai> Tantek: I think the current use case stands well enough on its own.
# [18:18] <fantasai> Tantek: Would consider case of third-party scripts being disabled as a separate use case.
# [18:19] <fantasai> Florian: So if they're disabled, you would say scripting is supported?
# [18:19] <fantasai> Zakim, unmute me
# [18:19] <Zakim> fantasai should no longer be muted
# [18:19] <fantasai> Tantek: I don't think any modern people care about CCPP or know what it is.
# [18:20] <fantasai> Tantek: And URL-based vocabularies have not been successful on the Web.
# [18:20] <fantasai> Tantek: We can look at CCPP cases one by one to find use cases
# [18:20] <fantasai> Daniel: Not first time we discussed CCPP, never succeeded in integrating
# [18:20] * TabAtkins doesn't know what ccpp is.
# [18:20] <fantasai> Tantek: There's an opportunity for reuse of terminology, rather than reinvention.
# [18:20] * florianr doesn't know either
# [18:21] <dstorey> *me neither*
# [18:21] <smfr> TabAtkins: former name for USSR
# [18:21] <glazou> lol
# [18:21] <arno> ccpp = composite capabilities/preferences profiles
# [18:21] <TabAtkins> hehe
# [18:21] <glazou> smfr: was CCCP
# [18:21] <fantasai> Tantek: But I wouldn't expect any web developer to know or use it.
# [18:21] <arno> http://www.w3.org/Mobile/CCPP/
# [18:21] <dbaron> CC/PP
# [18:21] <dstorey> c++?
# [18:22] <fantasai> Tantek: CCPP was designed for previous generation of phones. Hasn't kept up with modern mobile web
# [18:22] <fantasai> Anton: Modern scripts, when they are working with CSS, because there is no syntactic support for using script, what they tend to do is to insert a class into the <body> tag
# [18:23] <fantasai> Anton: And usually that class name is specific to the script, that is if it's a library, it inserts the library name into the <body> tag.
# [18:23] <fantasai> Anton: In the CSS you can distinguish which libraries are loaded from the CSS.
# [18:23] <dbaron> СССР != CC/PP
# [18:23] <fantasai> Anton: What we're seeing with this proposal is that we're loosing that fine-grained control, and to me that feels a little bit of a step backward.
# [18:24] <fantasai> glazou: So you are saying that because the feature is not powerful enough, moving it to declarative is not a good idea.
# [18:24] <fantasai> Anton gives an exampe.
# [18:24] <hober> q+ hober
# [18:24] * Zakim sees Bert, tantek, hober on the speaker queue
# [18:24] <tantek> see http://www.modernizr.com/docs/
# [18:24] <Bert> q-
# [18:24] * Zakim sees tantek, hober on the speaker queue
# [18:24] <fantasai> Anton: Until we have some concrete uses -- what exactly would someone be styling differently based on script or no script? -- we are going to get worse-written websites.
# [18:25] <fantasai> Tantek: One of the popular libraries right now, modernizr, specifically provides devs with JS and No-JS class names
# [18:25] <fantasai> Tantek: Since there's a modern library that provides this, that people use, shows that there's a use case for coarse granularity.
# [18:26] <fantasai> Tantek: Not saying there isn't a case for fine granularity, but that coarse granularity has a strong one.
# [18:26] <tantek> specifically, Modernizr replaces the class of "no-js" in the HTML tag, with "js" when JavaScript is present
# [18:26] <fantasai> Daniel: I have a use case for editors, where JS is disabled by default; editing a dynamic document makes no sense.
# [18:26] <hober> q- hober
# [18:26] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
# [18:26] <tantek> Zakim, q-
# [18:26] <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
# [18:26] <fantasai> Florian: I suggest we start drafting the coarse granularity version
# [18:27] <fantasai> Florian: and then go further if we see the need.
# [18:27] <dbaron> I think the key question is what percentage of the use cases for this a (script) media query would solve, and what percentage would need more detailed domain or script-feature support.
# [18:27] <fantasai> Daniel: Since I see no objection to the original proposal, I say we go ahead and add that. Possibly add a note about finer granularity
# [18:27] <dbaron> q+
# [18:27] * Zakim sees dbaron on the speaker queue
# [18:27] <fantasai> Florian: So far dont' have an editor's draft, will put in the wiki
# [18:28] <fantasai> dbaron: Just wanted to comment that, one thing I'm more worried about than domain stuff, is how much people are going to want the detection to be based on particular features in the script
# [18:28] <fantasai> Florian: Once you know script is running, you can do feature-detection in the script.
# [18:29] <fantasai> dbaron: Question is, what is the percentage of use-cases that want feature-detection vs. scriptability detection.
# [18:29] <tantek> dbaron, but this is a replacement for what modernizr does
# [18:29] <fantasai> dbaron: If that percentage is high, then we are not solving the real problem.
# [18:29] <tantek> modernizr replaces "no-js" with "js"
# [18:29] <tantek> and developers style based on that
# [18:29] <fantasai> Florian: Having more concrete use cases would help figure this out.
# [18:30] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Draft script/no-script detection for Media Queries 4
# [18:30] <fantasai> Topic: Publish CSS3 Text / CSS3 Writing Modes
# [18:30] <fantasai> Daniel: jdaggett says he's fine with publishing css3-text, but would like to defer decision to publish css3-writing-modes to next week
# [18:30] <fantasai> Daniel: Anyone else?
# [18:31] <fantasai> Daniel: No objection to publishing CSS3 Text?
# [18:31] <fantasai> Florian: not from me
# [18:31] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Publish CSS3 Text as WD
# [18:31] <fantasai> Writing Modes deferred to next week
# [18:31] <tantek> Zakim, mute
# [18:31] <Zakim> I don't understand 'mute', tantek
# [18:31] <fantasai> Topic: Switching to Mercurial for specs
# [18:31] <smfr> yes please
# [18:31] <tantek> what about git?
# [18:31] <TabAtkins> +1
# [18:32] <TabAtkins> git's my preference, but anything is better than CVS.
# [18:32] * sylvaing doesn't mind CVS as much as the SSH voodoo
# [18:32] <fantasai> Bert: Explain the advantages?
# [18:32] * tantek doesn't mind diffs either
# [18:32] * sylvaing but no objection to using something that's younger than me
# [18:32] <tantek> er, doesn't mind CVS
# [18:32] <fantasai> Florian: nicer to work offline, diffs are easier, merging is better
# [18:32] <sylvaing> if merging is better, that's big imo
# [18:33] <fantasai> fantasai: We can rename and move files, and fork them while keeping history
# [18:33] <fantasai> fantasai: which we're doing a lot when splitting things into two levels
# [18:33] <fantasai> fantasai: We don't really do any merging, so I don't see that as an advantage here.
# [18:33] <fantasai> Tantek: Consider others like git?
# [18:33] <dbaron> http://hgbook.red-bean.com/ should be a good starting point
# [18:34] <plinss> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/mercurial
# [18:34] * sylvaing really wishes specs were edited inline, wiki-style....
# [18:34] <fantasai> plinss: Considering that we're using Mercurial for tests, and others are W3C are using it for both tests and specs
# [18:34] <fantasai> plinss: Don't see the advantage to using git
# [18:34] <arronei> I agree I don't see andy reason for using git.
# [18:34] <fantasai> Tantek: I don't want to switch to another system without at least having parity on documentation for setting up to edit
# [18:35] <sylvaing> agrees with Tantek
# [18:35] <arronei> Mercurial seems to be the common one at W3C
# [18:35] <fantasai> Tantek: "if it's not broken don't fix it" consideration...
# [18:35] <dbaron> http://annevankesteren.nl/2010/08/w3c-mercurial
# [18:35] <fantasai> Kimberly: There's some very good documentation online for Mercurial, they used at TPAC for people starting to write tests. With that documentation, I was up and running in 3 minutes
# [18:35] <fantasai> Tantek: Woah
# [18:35] <fantasai> Florian: Are we importing history from CVS?
# [18:36] <glazou> ROFL @ "the rest is relatively easy. Just invoke hg. "
# [18:36] <dbaron> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing/Submission/
# [18:36] <sylvaing> there is source control doc, and there is the connectivity part e.g. SSH. I had a far harder time setting up the latter than the former
# [18:36] <tantek> frankly, mercurial is already legacy. open source communities have moved onto git.
# [18:37] <fantasai> fantasai and dbaron explain this is very straightforward to do
# [18:37] <dbaron> Are we planning one repository per spec or one repository for all specs?
# [18:37] <fantasai> Tantek: I want to see documentation at the same level as the CVS documentation we have first.
# [18:37] <TabAtkins> I think current practice is to do one repo per spec?
# [18:38] <fantasai> sylvain agrees
# [18:38] <TabAtkins> One problem I have with the W3C's Hg - it's basically impossible to find the damned spec in the view.
# [18:38] <fantasai> Tantek: Another concern is that Mercurial is already legacy outside of W3C
# [18:38] <TabAtkins> Our CVS view is easy - just go to dev.w3.org/csswg
# [18:38] <fantasai> Tantek: New projects use github, people use git
# [18:38] <fantasai> Daniel: This does not sound like a good argument time. Geeks are going to use the newest best thing.
# [18:39] <fantasai> Florian: For a while it was not clear whether Mercurial or Git was better, now more people prefer Git.
# [18:39] * Joins: nimbu1 (Adium@157.22.251.133)
# [18:40] <fantasai> Florian: While I prefer Git, we are using mercurial throughout W3C, so I don't mind ..
# [18:40] <arno> git does have a lot of wind in its sails
# [18:40] * Quits: nimbu (Adium@157.22.251.133) (Connection reset by peer)
# [18:40] <fantasai> Tantek: I am skeptical about switching to Mercurial and then in a few years switching to git
# [18:40] <fantasai> plinss: There's a lot of cost to us using Git, and W3C using mercurial.
# [18:40] <fantasai> plinss: Even assuming W3C eventually switches to git.
# [18:41] <dstorey> main advantage for me with git is using github over say bitbucket, but I guess w3c will be self hosting rather than on github
# [18:41] <Bert> q+ to ask if we can first ask other WGs for their mercurial experience (don't like to be the first to use a new tool...)
# [18:41] * Zakim sees dbaron, Bert on the speaker queue
# [18:41] <fantasai> Florian: How many W3C tools, rather than W3C people, rely on Mercurial?
# [18:41] <dbaron> q-
# [18:41] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
# [18:41] <fantasai> plinss: test suite tools, as well as actual usage
# [18:41] <fantasai> fantasai: A lot of the systems plinss has been building are integrated with mercurial
# [18:42] <fantasai> tantek: People are building tools on top of git, not so much on top of Mercurial
# [18:42] <fantasai> tantek: it's a dying platform
# [18:42] <fantasai> plinss: I don't agree it's a dying platform, and a potential move years in the future
# [18:43] <kojiishi> There seems to be a lot of W3C repositories already at http://dvcs.w3.org/hg
# [18:43] <fantasai> Daniel: I'm hearing no consensus.
# [18:43] <Zakim> -danielweck
# [18:43] <fantasai> Florian: What I'm hearing is ppl who are pushing for hg, write CSSWG-specific documentation for it.
# [18:44] <sylvaing> I have no opinion on moving out of CVS. But if someone writes a doc to switch, I'll test it out and volunteer to document the Windows steps
# [18:44] <Bert> -> http://www.w3.org/blog/systeam/2010/06/16/why_we_chose_mercurial_as_our_dvcs/ W3C systems team on Mercurial vs others
# [18:44] <Zakim> +??P7
# [18:44] <fantasai> Florian: If it's good enough for the skeptics, then we can move.
# [18:44] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P7 is me
# [18:44] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
# [18:44] <dbaron> I'm not sure the conversion is all that straightforward -- I think conversions from CVS are pretty painful no matter what.
# [18:44] <dbaron> (conversions of existing history, that is)
# [18:44] <sylvaing> dbaron, isn't that true of any source control system migration?
# [18:44] <fantasai> Daniel: who is willing to take an action on writing that documentation?
# [18:45] <dbaron> sylvaing, I think conversions between systems that use atomic commits are a lot easier.
# [18:45] <sylvaing> dbaron, fair.
# [18:45] <fantasai> Daniel: Mercurial is very powerful, but it is much harder to understand.
# [18:45] <dbaron> sylvaing, though conversions between svn and others are a little painful because of its use of conventions for branching/tagging instead of mechanisms
# [18:46] <fantasai> Koji: I thought Anne said documentation is already available for HTML group, isn't that enough for us?
# [18:46] <kojiishi> http://annevankesteren.nl/2010/08/w3c-mercurial
# [18:46] <tantek> here is the challenge, if you support mercurial, write up documentation *at least as good as* http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/cvs
# [18:47] <tantek> previous to that cvs documentation there were *tons* of cvs documentation on the web and yet it was still a huge barrier for editors of CSS drafts
# [18:47] <Ms2ger> I would love to see that for git
# [18:47] * glazou is suprised nobody mentioned svn as an alternative :-)
# [18:47] <tantek> so no, external mercurial documentation is insufficient
# [18:47] <dbaron> tantek, I expect the hg version of that will be a lot shorter
# [18:48] <fantasai> fantasai explains reasoning for opening the discussion
# [18:48] <dbaron> tantek, because there's no ssh involved (w3c setup uses https:)
# [18:48] <tantek> if you want to switch to mercurial, put in the work to provide AS GOOD documentation as CVS
# [18:48] <tantek> if you don't have the time for that, then neither should the rest of the group
# [18:49] <fantasai> sylvaing: We need a volunteer to write a doc, one to write steps for Windows, and volunteers to test it.
# [18:49] <fantasai> Florian: I'll volunteer to test it; I'm in favor of switching.
# [18:49] <dbaron> can we agree to put said document at http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/hg ?
# [18:49] <fantasai> Daniel: Still need volunteers to write docs
# [18:49] * fantasai yes
# [18:50] * fantasai notes there's probably some docs in the testing section, too
# [18:50] <fantasai> Topic: EXIF orientation for images
# [18:50] <fantasai> dbaron: There are ppl who want to post images that get their EXIF orientation handled by the browser. Since it's not backwards compat, can't do it by default.
# [18:50] * tantek really wants this as a web author
# [18:50] <fantasai> dbaron: Thought we had one in an old draft, but maybe I'm misremembering.
# [18:51] <fantasai> fantasai: This would probably be image-orientation property, which never got an auto keyword.
# [18:51] <TabAtkins> I wouldn't mind changing image-orientation's grammar to "[ <angle> || flip ] | auto"
# [18:51] <tantek> or image-orientation: exif ?
# [18:51] <TabAtkins> Or, not auto, "from-image".
# [18:51] <tantek> why not be specific and say exif rather than auto?
# [18:51] <fantasai> dbaron: Question is, do we want to do this, and if so do we want image-orientation to support all EXIF orientations rather than just the 4 it now supports
# [18:52] <fantasai> tantek, because it might be doen via some other technology in some other image format
# [18:52] <fantasai> tantek, CSS keywords are format-agnostic
# [18:52] <fantasai> Florian: Does anyone use the other orientations?
# [18:52] <tantek> analogy: color-profiles
# [18:52] <fantasai> Arno: It's in the spec, but I can't think of any camera that uses them.
# [18:52] <fantasai> Tantek: Some images have embedded color profiles, we never got to using those.
# [18:52] <fantasai> Tantek: We dropped that property due to insufficient interest.
# [18:53] <fantasai> Tantek: Just wanted to point out similar situation.
# [18:53] <TabAtkins> The extra 4 orientations are used sometimes for self-facing cameras.
# [18:53] <fantasai> Florian: One problem was mismatched colors between flash and images. But Flash now does it
# [18:53] <TabAtkins> vs world-facing
# [18:54] <TabAtkins> Note as well that Chrome would like to implement auto-orienting as well.
# [18:54] <tantek> level 4
# [18:54] <fantasai> fantasai: I think it's a fine idea, my concern is whether it should go in L3 or not
# [18:55] <smfr> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-images/#image-orientation0
# [18:55] <fantasai> smfr: I've seen patches come in that attempt to support this.
# [18:55] <fantasai> smfr: Question is, does this only affect content images, or also CSS images?
# [18:55] <TabAtkins> smfr: image-orientation only affects image elements.
# [18:56] <TabAtkins> It's... kinda underdefined right now.
# [18:56] <fantasai> Florian: Intuitively, I'd say only content images
# [18:56] <TabAtkins> Theoretically it could affect <video> and <canvas> too, I guess.
# [18:56] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@50.135.52.203)
# [18:57] <fantasai> fantasai: content images can be injected via CSS, too. Also image-resolution IIRC applies to CSS images as well
# [18:57] <tantek> hence why I said level 4 ;)
# [18:57] <fantasai> Daniel: Let's explore this idea.
# [18:57] <TabAtkins> image-resolution is currently defined on all elements, but that's inconsistent and weird.
# [18:57] <fantasai> fantasai: [...]
# [18:58] * tantek is wondering if we can spend 1-2 min on css3-ui LC2
# [18:58] <TabAtkins> image() previously allowed resolution-altering on specific CSS images, which I think is a better thing.
# [18:59] <fantasai> fantasai explaisn why image-orientation is in the draft
# [18:59] <fantasai> Florian: Can we adda note that CSS4 will add EXIF support?
# [18:59] <tantek> anything stopping http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-ui/ from being published as LC?
# [18:59] <fantasai> Topic: Publish CSS3 UI as LC
# [18:59] <fantasai> Tantek: Checked in changes requested
# [18:59] <fantasai> Tantek: Didn't hear any feedback or objections in the last week
# [19:00] <fantasai> Tantek: So what's the next step?
# [19:00] <fantasai> Florian: I asked for a week review last week, and didn't find time, so I'll just shut up
# [19:00] <fantasai> Tantek: if you want a day, I'm fine with that.
# [19:00] <fantasai> Florian: Don't have time, so I will just trust other people to review.
# [19:00] <fantasai> Tantek: How long do people want the last call?
# [19:01] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [19:02] <fantasai> discussion of when to set the deadline
# [19:02] <Bert> (3 weeks is required)
# [19:02] <fantasai> Daniel: I recommend 4 weeks
# [19:03] <fantasai> fantasai: Working Groups to contact?
# [19:03] <fantasai> Tantek: HTML
# [19:03] <fantasai> Tantek: WAI-PF
# [19:03] <fantasai> Tantek: SVG?
# [19:04] <fantasai> Bert: XForms
# [19:04] <tantek> Bert if there are any problems with publication of the LC (like any details I have forgotten), please let me know!
# [19:04] <tantek> I will be on irc and try to be very accessible to help out
# [19:04] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Publish LC of CSS3 UI with 4 weeks comment period
# [19:05] <fantasai> tantek, make sure you run the validator and the link checker first
# [19:05] <fantasai> Tantek: If anyone has any other issues or typos to report, send them in.
# [19:05] <fantasai> Meeting closed.
# [19:05] <Zakim> -kimberly
# [19:05] * Parts: smfr (smfr@173.228.90.114)
# [19:05] <Zakim> -antonp
# [19:05] <Zakim> - +1.415.832.aadd
# [19:05] * Quits: kimberly (Kimberly@68.81.71.240) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0/20111228055358])
# [19:05] <Zakim> -glazou
# [19:05] <Zakim> -sylvaing
# [19:05] <Zakim> -plinss
# [19:05] <Zakim> -Rossen
# [19:05] <Zakim> -florianr
# [19:05] <Zakim> -stearns
# [19:05] <Zakim> -kojiishi
# [19:05] <Zakim> -Bert
# [19:05] * Quits: antonp (50a94e63@78.129.202.38) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
# [19:05] <Zakim> -smfr
# [19:05] <Zakim> -??P58
# [19:05] <Zakim> -danielweck
# [19:05] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [19:05] <Zakim> -hober
# [19:05] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [19:06] <Zakim> -tantek
# [19:06] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:06] * Parts: alexmog (alexmog@50.135.52.203)
# [19:06] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, dbaron, plinss, +1.415.871.aaaa, hober, florianr, tantek, antonp, smfr, stearns, JohnJansen, Rossen, fantasai, kimberly, Bert, kojiishi, danielweck,
# [19:06] <Zakim> ... +1.206.324.aacc, +1.415.832.aadd, sylvaing
# [19:06] * Quits: danielweck (danielweck@86.152.124.32) (Quit: danielweck)
# [19:06] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
# [19:06] <dbaron> I started sketching out http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/hg but it needs some more work
# [19:06] * Quits: kojiishi (kojiishi@222.158.227.129) (Quit: Leaving...)
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# [19:11] * Quits: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22) (Quit: oyvind)
# [19:11] <tantek> ok running link checker
# [19:12] <tantek> oh look, found 2 bad fragments from prev CSS21 references
# [19:14] * Quits: Rossen (Rossen@98.225.38.50) (Ping timeout)
# [19:18] <Bert> Fantasai, want to do some Backgrounds and borders now?
# [19:18] <fantasai> yep
# [19:19] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/products/11
# [19:19] * fantasai plugs in the big monitor
# [19:20] <Bert> Does that mean you expect this is going to be difficult? :-)
# [19:20] <fantasai> yes, and, I need more space for IRC, editor, and browser all side-by-side :)
# [19:22] <fantasai> Ok, I'm set up
# [19:23] <fantasai> ISSUE-182
# [19:23] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/182
# [19:23] <fantasai> trackbot: ISSUE-182
# [19:23] <trackbot> Sorry, fantasai, I don't understand 'trackbot: ISSUE-182'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
# [19:23] <fantasai> ISSUE-182?
# [19:23] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-182
# [19:23] <trackbot> ISSUE-182 -- Should box-decoration-break also apply to bidi reordering splits? -- raised
# [19:23] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/182
# [19:23] <Bert> Your e-mail says that split borders due to bidi could always be 'slice' but shouldn't that be 'clone' instead?
# [19:23] <fantasai> ah, there we go
# [19:24] <fantasai> Bert: No, they're slice in CSS2.1
# [19:24] <Bert> Ah
# [19:24] <fantasai> I have no opinion on this, do you?
# [19:24] <fantasai> I'm thinking we should poke the i18n people and see if they can find an opinion :)
# [19:24] <Bert> Slice seems ugly, but if it is already the current behavior...
# [19:25] <Bert> Maybe I'd want to be able to override 'slice' with 'clone'
# [19:25] <Bert> But asking some bidi experts seems a good idea.
# [19:26] <Bert> I don't have many bidi books to check what they do :-)
# [19:26] * fantasai doubts any of them do anything remotely related
# [19:27] <fantasai> it always looks bad when you style text across bidi splits, *especially* if you're using box model stuff!
# [19:28] <Bert> If it happens to be a link source anchor, you might want the two halves to look like buttons.
# [19:28] <fantasai> instead of a broken button? :)
# [19:28] <fantasai> yeah, possibly
# [19:28] * fantasai thinks it would look broken either way
# [19:29] <Bert> Not more broken than with a line break in the middle.
# [19:29] <fantasai> yeah, those always look odd too
# [19:29] <fantasai> but not as bad if it's only underlined
# [19:30] <fantasai> I guess I'd lean towards applying it, then.
# [19:30] <fantasai> you?
# [19:30] <Bert> me too, but I don't feel like I really know the answer.
# [19:31] <Bert> If we ask i18n people, do we have a chance of an naswer?
# [19:31] <fantasai> worst case I'll corner Aharon and demand an answer :)
# [19:32] <Bert> :-)
# [19:32] <fantasai> Let's make it apply for now, though?
# [19:32] <fantasai> since it's undefined atm
# [19:32] <Bert> Agreed.
# [19:32] * Quits: dstorey (Adium@67.180.84.179) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [19:33] <fantasai> plinss: So, remind me how I get a testcase to load from shepherd?
# [19:33] <fantasai> plinss: I can't seem to click on anything that loads the file
# [19:33] <fantasai> ok, you want to make the edits?
# [19:33] <fantasai> I'll send the email
# [19:33] <Bert> OK
# [19:33] * fantasai drafts this
# [19:34] <Bert> Are you putting somthing in tracker, or should I make myself an action?
# [19:34] <Bert> Or I can just wait for your draft, I guess...
# [19:35] <fantasai> I'm just writing up the email right now...
# [19:37] <fantasai> k, sent
# [19:37] <fantasai> Bert: do you have proposed wording?
# [19:39] <fantasai> I guess s/line break/line break or bidi-imposed break/ ?
# [19:40] <Bert> I was trying to write something longer, but that short one might actually be good enough.
# [19:40] <fantasai> ok :)
# [19:40] <fantasai> will you check it in, or should I?
# [19:41] <Bert> I'm editing right now.
# [19:41] <fantasai> ok
# [19:42] <Bert> Done.
# [19:42] <fantasai> cool
# [19:42] <fantasai> ISSUE-189?
# [19:42] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-189
# [19:42] <trackbot> ISSUE-189 -- Corner transition point define in spec is wrong -- raised
# [19:42] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/189
# [19:42] <fantasai> So, we don't actually have a good answer for this, and we know the one in the spec is wrong.
# [19:42] <fantasai> So I'm thinking we should make it undefined.
# [19:43] <fantasai> And just say that it has to be proportional
# [19:43] <fantasai> such that if one border is zero-width, the other border takes up the whole corner curve
# [19:43] <fantasai> That way we can at least have the spec reflect reality, and implementers can poke around and see if they can figure out what actually looks good.
# [19:44] <Bert> That's indeed better than what's there now, but still feels less than ideal.
# [19:44] <fantasai> Yeah. But I know I won't find the right answer any time soon.
# [19:45] * fantasai tries to draft wording
# [19:49] <Bert> "Color and style transitions should be as smooth as possible" as the sole content for 5.4?
# [19:49] <fantasai> Bert: Here's what I've got, I'm missing a piece
# [19:49] <fantasai> The center of color and style transitions between adjoining borders
# [19:49] <fantasai> must be proportional to the ratio of the border widths such that when
# [19:49] <fantasai> one border width is zero the style and color of the other takes up the
# [19:49] <fantasai> entire curve, and [something about continuity]
# [19:49] <fantasai> However it is not defined what these transitions look like or how
# [19:49] <fantasai> "proportional" should be interpreted, other than at the extremes.
# [19:50] <fantasai> I think it's reasonably likely that people are assuming that 'border-radius: 5%; border-style: solid none; border-color: green red" shows no red
# [19:50] * Joins: danielfilho (danielfilh@187.31.77.7)
# [19:50] <fantasai> Other than that, I doubt there's much dependency on anything specific
# [19:50] <fantasai> (if for no other reason than there's no interop, but also split curved borders don't look very nice)
# [19:51] <Bert> Yes, but maybe the case of zero border is an exception, rather than the limit of the general case.
# [19:52] <fantasai> So, imagine a gradient border transition
# [19:52] <fantasai> At zero the border is all green
# [19:52] <fantasai> at 1px vs 50px, it's tinted red all along the curve?
# [19:52] <Bert> Yes, maybe... [Trying to visualize...]
# [19:54] <fantasai> okay, let's poke bradk about this then
# [19:54] <fantasai> but I think we agree it should not immediatley jump to half red half green? :)
# [19:55] <Bert> Yeah, that would be ugly.
# [19:55] <fantasai> okay
# [19:55] <fantasai> I think that makes sense.
# [19:56] <fantasai> so, supposing we draft up your idea...
# [19:56] <fantasai> oh, degenerate cases
# [19:56] * fantasai forgot about those
# [19:56] * fantasai tries to remember how they work
# [19:56] <fantasai> ...
# [19:57] <fantasai> ok, don't think it's a problem
# [19:57] <fantasai> :)
# [19:57] <fantasai> right so drafting this thing...
# [19:57] * Quits: florianr (florianr@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [19:59] <fantasai> If one of these borders is zero-width, then the other border takes
# [19:59] <fantasai> up the entire transitional area. Otherwise,
# [19:59] <fantasai> the center of color and style transitions between adjoining borders
# [19:59] <fantasai> must be proportional to the ratio of the border such that [something
# [19:59] <fantasai> about continuity].
# [19:59] <fantasai> However it is not defined what these transitions look like or how
# [19:59] <fantasai> "proportional" should be interpreted, other than at the extremes.
# [19:59] <fantasai> ?
# [19:59] <Bert> Yes. I was just writing this: (1) The style and color of a zero-width (absent) border side does not influence the style of the corner (but influences its shapes). (2) The corner between two non-zero borders should show a smooth transition between the styles and colors.
# [20:00] <Bert> s/shapes/shape/
# [20:00] <fantasai> the problem with "smooth transition between styles and colors"
# [20:00] <fantasai> is that it doesn't actually work in practice
# [20:00] <fantasai> first
# [20:00] <fantasai> we want to allow a hard color transition
# [20:00] <fantasai> second, it's very very tricky to do any kind of soft style transition :)
# [20:00] <fantasai> so we also want to allow hard style transitions
# [20:01] <tantek> ah, apparently XForms 1.1 dropped the example I had used from XForms 1.0 so I'll drop it as well. caught by the link checker.
# [20:01] <fantasai> the issue here is that the center of the transition needs to move proportionally
# [20:04] <Bert> I have a hard time determining what it is proportional to. :-(
# [20:05] <fantasai> hmm
# [20:07] <fantasai> ooh, this is ridiculous, but...
# [20:08] <fantasai> Otherwise,
# [20:08] <fantasai> the center of color and style transitions between adjoining borders
# [20:08] <fantasai> must be proportional to the ratio of the border widths such that a
# [20:08] <fantasai> function of its location is continuous as the border widths' ratio changes.
# [20:08] <Bert> Also, if the style is different (say solid/double) and the corner is not rounded, should the color edge still be diagonal?
# [20:08] <fantasai> And we can link to the mathematical definition of 'continuous'.....
# [20:08] <Bert> That requirement of continuity is good, indeed.
# [20:10] <fantasai> is it worded correctly?
# [20:10] <fantasai> 'as the border widths' ration changes'??
# [20:11] <Bert> Maybe easier to say it is continous w.r.t. to both border widths.
# [20:12] <fantasai> the center of color and style transitions between adjoining borders
# [20:12] <fantasai> must be proportional to the ratio of the border widths such that a
# [20:12] <fantasai> function of its location is continuous with respect to the ratio.
# [20:12] <fantasai>
# [20:12] <fantasai> ?
# [20:12] <fantasai> s/the/this/
# [20:15] <Bert> I think you're trying to say that the center is nearer the thin border than the thick border, but just talking about ratio doesn't make that clear.
# [20:15] <fantasai> It does if you include the first bit about zero-width borders
# [20:15] <fantasai> If one of these borders is zero-width, then the other border takes
# [20:15] <fantasai> up the entire transitional area. Otherwise,
# [20:15] <fantasai> the center of color and style transitions between adjoining borders
# [20:15] <fantasai> must be proportional to the ratio of the border widths such that a
# [20:15] <fantasai> function of its location is continuous with respect to this ratio.
# [20:15] <fantasai> However it is not defined what these transitions look like or how
# [20:15] <fantasai> “proportional” should be interpreted.
# [20:17] <fantasai> Bert: Do you think that's good enough?
# [20:19] <Bert> Are you sure the zero-width case is a normal case, i.e., captured by your text about "proportional"? Or is rather a separate case with separate rules?
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# [20:20] <fantasai> Well, they're technically separate
# [20:20] <fantasai> since there's an "if... otherwise"
# [20:21] <fantasai> But having that first case makes it obvious which way you should skew the proportion.
# [20:21] <fantasai> and why
# [20:21] <fantasai> imo, anyway :)
# [20:22] <Bert> If they are really separate, then the description of the zero-width case does't imply anything about what "proportional" means
# [20:23] <fantasai> No, you're right it doesn't.
# [20:23] <Bert> The word Otherwise separates, rather than connects the cases.
# [20:23] <fantasai> As it's intended to
# [20:24] <fantasai> But if you were going to make the center's location continous
# [20:24] <fantasai> and you started with it at the left end because the top side is zero
# [20:24] <fantasai> then increasing the top side to 1px isn't going to suddenly jump the center to the other end
# [20:25] <fantasai> s/top/left/
# [20:25] <fantasai> s/top/left/
# [20:27] <Bert> Hmm, I can't get rid of the impression that it is the ratio of the radii that determines the center, rather than the ratio of the border widths.
# [20:27] <fantasai> imagine you hold the radii constant
# [20:27] <fantasai> and equal
# [20:27] <fantasai> Now flex the border widths
# [20:28] <fantasai> the radii need to be considered as well, imo
# [20:28] <fantasai> but the proportionality is determined by the border widths
# [20:29] <fantasai> and the radii are only considered in how you map this curved surface to 1D
# [20:33] <Bert> Is the center of the transition a line through the corner of the box with a slope equal to the ratio of the border widths?
# [20:33] <fantasai> in some cases could be, but imo we shouldn't be requiring that
# [20:34] <fantasai> that's the problem we're not trying to solve today :)
# [20:34] <fantasai> because solving it correctly would take a lot of drawings and a lot of web-designer polling
# [20:34] <fantasai> and probably some very tricky maths
# [20:34] <fantasai> I'm going to check in what we have for now.
# [20:35] <fantasai> And we'll see what the WG thinks.
# [20:36] <Bert> OK, I'll try to think about it more later.
# [20:37] <fantasai> ok, checked in
# [20:38] <fantasai> ISSUE-197?
# [20:38] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-197
# [20:38] <trackbot> ISSUE-197 -- clarify computed value of background-position -- raised
# [20:38] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/197
# [20:38] <fantasai> I think I fixed that, dbaron should check
# [20:38] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/#the-background-position
# [20:39] <fantasai> ISSUE-207?
# [20:39] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-207
# [20:39] <trackbot> ISSUE-207 -- border-image <number> slicing for SVG -- raised
# [20:39] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/207
# [20:39] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Sep/0172.html
# [20:39] <fantasai> Bert: I have no idea about this one. Do you?
# [20:39] <Bert> Still reading...
# [20:42] <Bert> I think you did the right thing already.
# [20:42] <Bert> Probably good idea to ask dbaron explicitly to verify.
# [20:43] * fantasai didn't do anything
# [20:43] <Bert> Oh wait, I'm still at 197.
# [20:43] <Bert> Sorry.
# [20:43] <Bert> Reading 207 now.
# [20:44] <fantasai> oh!
# [20:44] <fantasai> heh
# [20:44] <fantasai> :)
# [20:44] <fantasai> well, good to get your review, too ;)
# [20:44] <tantek> ok, link checker fixes completed for css3-ui.
# [20:44] <fantasai> tantek, validator also?
# [20:45] <tantek> yeah did that first
# [20:45] * fantasai looks it over
# [20:45] <Bert> We probably cannot say anything more definitive about vector formats in general, but we can say somethign about SVG.
# [20:46] <fantasai> tantek: your status section says you're returning to LCWD because you dropped stuff, but it's also because you added text-overflow. should mention that
# [20:46] <tantek> fantasai, bert, is there any way to include editor's draft specific text that disappears in a TR version
# [20:46] <Bert> Using viewbox seems right, with width/height as fallback if there is no viewbox.
# [20:46] <fantasai> tantek: comment it out when you publish? :)
# [20:47] <Bert> Other than telling me to remove it by hand, I don't think so, Tantek. :-)
# [20:47] * fantasai would comment it out, request publication, and the restore it once it's published
# [20:48] <tantek> ok I'll take care of it
# [20:48] <tantek> good catch fantasai
# [20:48] <fantasai> bert: What if we say that images that need drawing in order to determine slices are drawn at the size of the border image area?
# [20:48] * Bert thinks we should add a media query: @media all and (editors-draft) {...} :-)
# [20:48] <fantasai> bert: would that make sense?
# [20:49] <Bert> Yes, that sounds right. Is that actually enough to solve the issue?
# [20:50] <Bert> Hmm, I guess it is.
# [20:51] <fantasai> ok, I'll work on wording
# [20:51] <fantasai> Could you review ISSUE-212?
# [20:51] <fantasai> ISSUE-212?
# [20:51] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-212
# [20:51] <trackbot> ISSUE-212 -- background-position grammar is kinda awkward -- raised
# [20:51] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/212
# [20:51] <fantasai> I just checked in edits for it based on Tab's proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Dec/0447.html
# [20:51] <fantasai> I think that's correct, but, you're the grammar expert
# [20:51] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/#the-background-position
# [20:53] * fantasai notices that class=prod is not monospace and wonders when/why that change was made
# [20:55] <fantasai> Bert: ok, here's my proposed wording for 207
# [20:55] <fantasai> <dd>Numbers represent pixels in the image (if the image is a raster
# [20:55] <fantasai> image) or vector coordinates (if the image is a vector image). If
# [20:55] <fantasai> the image must be sized to determine the slices, then it is sized
# [20:55] <fantasai> to the <i>border image area</i>.
# [20:57] <Bert> Maybe a note to explain why that last sentence is important? The case of SVG images with no intrinsic size?
# [20:57] <fantasai> it'd also apply to gradients
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# [21:00] * fantasai adds a for example
# [21:01] <fantasai> Bert: checked in
# [21:02] <Bert> Looks good.
# [21:02] <fantasai> cool
# [21:02] <fantasai> Does 212 look ok?
# [21:03] * Bert still doesn't think <i> can suddenly be redefined from presentational to semantic...
# [21:03] * fantasai thinks it is nonetheless convenient to do so :)
# [21:04] <Bert> I'm not sure it is actually better. I suspect there are other ways. But I think the grammar is OK.
# [21:04] <fantasai> ok
# [21:04] <fantasai> I agree that the new one is more readable than the one we had
# [21:06] <fantasai> ok, I have to leave in a few minutes
# [21:06] <fantasai> Continue tomorrow?
# [21:06] <Bert> Yes, good idea.
# [21:07] <fantasai> ok
# [21:07] <fantasai> you can look over the other issues and see if you've got good solutions :)
# [21:07] <fantasai> 208 confuses me in particular... ^^;;
# [21:07] <Bert> Yes, will do that.
# [21:07] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
# [21:07] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
# [21:12] <plinss> fantasai: click on either the source file link or any revision link, then click 'raw' in the Mercurial view (at the top)
# [21:13] <plinss> fantasai: looks like a recent Mercurial upgrade changed that behavior to serve as application/binary (for security), I just reconfigured to serve as text/html
# [21:13] <plinss> fantasai: should work now...
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# [21:44] <tantek> fantasai, I've noted the couple new properties/values in the status section up front now and linked to the changes section from there: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-ui/#status
# [21:45] <tantek> Bert, I've commented out the editor's draft only "This version" text/link, and provided the code instead for generating the TR "This version" text/link. http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-ui/Overview.src.html
# [21:47] <tantek> (ah, forgot the style sheet)
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# [22:20] <tantek> well, tried changing the stylesheet and it didn't make a difference in the post-processed version so presumably either Bert has to do the transformation, or I'm missing something.
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# [23:12] <fantasai> tantek: I'll take a look
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# [23:20] <fantasai> tantek: Need to replace [STATUS] with WD in "This Version"
# [23:20] <fantasai> tantek: then it will regenerate correctly
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# [23:37] <tantek> fantasai - is that documented on the wiki somewhere?
# [23:37] <tantek> too much ceremony still
# [23:40] * fantasai doesn't know
# [23:40] <fantasai> the processor docs are here - https://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css3-src/bin/README.html
# [23:41] <fantasai> I don't really see where it's explained how to switch statuses...
# [23:41] * fantasai supposes it's a relatively new feature, maybe
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# [23:50] <tantek> aha maybe this? "If there is a H2 subheading under the H1 that gives the spec's status, the [STATUS] variable will be initialized from that"
# [23:51] <tantek> no, in the case of css3-ui, that h2 is set to [LONGSTATUS]
# [23:52] <fantasai> tantek: cvs up
# [23:53] <fantasai> tantek: In general, Bert takes care of regenerating for the appropriate publication status.
# [23:53] <tantek> I did cvs up
# [23:53] <fantasai> tantek: But the change I made will let you do that yourself too
# [23:57] <tantek> huh ok
# [23:57] <tantek> I think I'm going to replace "SOMETIME IN THE FUTURE AFTER A PUBLIC LCWD IS PUBLISHED" with "4 weeks after the date of publication noted in the header"
# [23:57] <fantasai> you're required to put the date there
# [23:57] <fantasai> so
# [23:58] <fantasai> put 4 weeks from next Tuesday?
# [23:59] <fantasai> that's the next publication date after tomorrow
# [23:59] <fantasai> (W3C publishes on Tuesdays and Thursdays)
# [23:59] <tantek> that's dumb
# [23:59] <fantasai> ?
# [23:59] <tantek> guessword
# [23:59] <tantek> relative reference will have to do
# Session Close: Thu Jan 12 00:00:00 2012

The end :)